2. amps-preamps
  3. 126624-10101

My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


128x128jays_audio_lab
20,890 responses 
mrdecibel
3,063 posts
 
viber, I would think wc has the perfect marriage. She seems to like his music, taking part in some of his comparisons. My divorce had very little to do with my audio / music thing, as I had my own dedicated listening room throughout all of our 34 years together, and as long as our bills were paid, she never cared if I brought in another piece of gear, and that was quite often. She was / is a piano player, but never was interested in my gear or my music. WC, someone I know, thinks a lot about the Alta Audio " Statement " speakers, if they are on display. Mike Levy is the main guy behind that company, and although he probably does not remember me, we knew each other with his 1st foray into loudspeaker design. His next model down the line seems interesting as well. These are not horns, but do use ribbons in the high frequencies. I am still, and always will be, a horny guy !. Enjoy the show, MrD.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
I want to say it was a pleasure to meet Paul (psnyder19) today at axpona. Great humble man and a pleasure to speak to. 
axememan's avatar
axememan
279 posts
 
PS AUDIO
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Best speakers I’ve heard so far:

focal grande utopia evo
 Sonus Faber Aida 2 

i am shocked by how good these Sonus saber Aida 2 are. 
dguitarnut
136 posts
 
Yeah but both of those come at over $120K msrp. 
Wow

rsf507
2,315 posts
 
Go have a listen to the Avantgarde Duo Mezzo XD (60k) unbelievably dynamic it was like watching an OLED tv, don’t know if I could listen to this for 3-5 hrs but was impressive. Also the MBL 101e (70k) was very powerful with controlled bass but not the air I thought on the top. Also voices seemed larger than life. My favorite was the Sanders 10e, just plain musical and airy, not the deepest bass but very tuneful and 3D sounding.
psnyder149's avatar
psnyder149
160 posts
 
Thanks WC! I had a wonderful time hanging with you at the show. Like I said this afternoon... Could not find a thing to complain about on the Focal Grand Utopia’s but partnered with the Naim system at approx. $750000 I buy the Sonus Faber Aida’s, AR Ref 10, Ref 160Ms and have money left over for a Lamborghini!

Have fun at the rest of the show and can’t wait to see what you write about the packages that arrived at your house today!!! -- Yes, a monumental tease for everyone!
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Ok so I went to hear the GT audioworks 3.1 speaker with the matching subs and it was special. Very coherent, zero fatigue, smooth as butter, big sound. I was very impressed by them. To those of you who doubted that the speakers with the matching subs would sound coherent, REST ASSURED that they don’t have this issue. They sound as if it was all coming from a full range speaker. Very nice speakers without a doubt.

viber6
2,448 posts
 
WC,
GT--yes, they are coherent, big, smooth, but how about their clarity, which no $120K dynamic speaker will have at the level of GT.  GT is a contender for you, so go back and hear them again, and insist that they do the full toe-in with the midpoint of the flat panels facing your nose/eyes.  When I first heard them not toed in, they were smooth, coherent, big, but when I toed them in fully, they had MUCH greater clarity without fatigue or edgy HF.  To get the full benefits, they are really a one listener speaker, enjoyable in the sweet spot both sitting and standng.  And the price is right, in the low teens without the sub.  There is very little risk--as alexbpm and gwalt say, when people recognize the high quality/cost ratio, resale value will be decent.  But you may not find a better speaker for a long time, so if you enjoy them for a few years, you will have gotten good value.  (Before buying, take a short trip to Laurel, Maryland to see if the Alsyvox are better and can justify the much higher price.  Laurel is a very short ride from DC.  I am tempted).  Listen without the sub, and you will still get enough quality bass for most music.
snafujg
34 posts
 
WC.  Make sure you checkout the Von Schweikerts in the Nirvana A room, the Ultra 9's in Red.  @200k, definitely a speaker for the .1%ers.  But that speaker, even in that gigantic room, was very impressive.  Almost as impressive as the $750k Focal/NAIM setup.  The demo I heard of those Grand Utopias blew me away.  I used to have Focal 1028 so I know the Focal sound.  That Grand Utopia bass was just unbelievable.  And the highs were as crisp and clear as anything I've heard.  Love the BE tweeter.  

I stopped at Block audio.  Too bad they're in that little room.  Total overkill with those gigantic mono blocks and those little book shelf speakers.  Wish they had some bigger speakers to show off what those amps can do.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Snafujg
i concur that the focal grande utopias are just spectacular. I mean, they just slaughtered anything I heard including the magico m6 WITH SUBS. I’ve got a whole new found respect for focal and what they are able to do. Their utopia line is NO JOKE. What’s even more impressive is that they were in a crappy space and they STILL delivered. The guy who did the demo was awesome to play all kinds of music through them and everything was impressive. Yes 225k is a lot of money but they certainly sounded like 225k. So far that is the BEST speaker I’ve heard in my life PERIOD.
oh and just for kicks, they were streaming tidal... meanwhile the rest of the big top speaker manufacturers were using ultra expensive turntables...

block audio chose a bad room and speakers. I will give them a pass since this is their first time in the United States. They need to get their game together next time. I hope you saw the sheer size and construction of the monoblocks. 
mrdecibel
3,063 posts
 
Klipsch, Volti, Avantgarde...….I'm still horny...…..
snafujg
34 posts
 
Yeah, the Block stuff was no joke either.  Build quality looked second to none.  Not as big as the Gryphon amps I saw in a couple of rooms.  Those were friggin monsters.  But the Blocks were huge in their own right.  I can only imagine what those would do for my Salon 2s.....

I totally concur the guy giving the Focal demo was great.  My buddy and I thanked him for playing different types of music in the demo.  So much of the stuff at Axpona is what we refer to as elevator music.  It's like some of the exhibitors are afraid to play anything with slam.  All they want to play is "slow stuff".  I would love to hear what those $295,000 Von Schweikert Ultra 11s could do playing the same playlist the Focal guy played with the Utopias......
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
I’m going to hear more speakers today. Let’s see what reactions I’ll post. For the money, I think the gt audioworks 3.1 are a steal. I heard them with and without subs and they were great. I plan to listen to a lot more.

you are correct about elevator music. They are sooo afraid of playing a mix of music.
So far, the Wilson Alexx and relentless Monos were the worst price/performance I’ve heard. Sluggish, slow, veiled, no emotion. I went in that room twice and I felt like the music never came out and hugged me.

viber6
2,448 posts
 
WC,
It is highly unlikely that a dynamic speaker at any price will have the accuracy/resolution at all freq of very low mass drivers of properly designed ribbons and stats.  The big Focal may have excellent HF due to the Be tweeter, but the rest of its range is likely inferior.  Again, don't be impressed by mere bigness, etc.  I bet that the Be midrange driver of your Persona 3F has more accurate midrange than all these big dynamic speakers with their midrange drivers.  Can you hear the words and instrumental details more clearly in any of these speakers compared to your 3F?  Don't miss the Sanders stats.  Someone on the previous page loved the 10e.  Roger Sanders admitted his mistakes in his past curved panel designs, and is now the leading advocate of flat panel designs, so you will be welcomed there when you insist on full toe-in and listening precisely at the sweet spot.  I hope you do the same at GT so you will maximize the value there.  Still, listen to the Muraudio stats, even though I am suspicious of their quasi-omni design.  You never know who has the best materials technology for stator and membrane, and transformer design, which may compensate for flawed radiation patterns.

A meaningful trip for you might be coming to Laurel, Md to hear the Alsyvox, then less than 200 miles to NJ to hear GT Audio's setup, then back again to Alsyvox.  You could easily bring your 3F in your car so you can have the ultimate A/B's for details and clarity.  These are all the finest examples of their technologies at very reasonable prices.  If the Alsyvox is the best, judging from the long experiences of alexbpm and gwalt, then you could say that the Alsyvox is even the best value, since you are salivating over ridiculously priced big dinosaur dynamic speakers.  
viber6
2,448 posts
 
WC,
Also, klh007 on the last page said that the Alsyvox Tintoretto had the most live/real percussion.  That really says it all.  That speaker is the proper size--big enough for spaciousness, but not too big that you get time smear which detracts from clarity.  $65,000 for that, a much better proposition than any big monster at the show.  I would say that this speaker or the Sanders, Muraudio, GT are the leading contenders for you.  
nyev
1,031 posts
 
Hi WC,
This is not related to the current discussion, but just wanted to say thanks for confirming your recommendation of the Gryphon Diablo 300 for my pricepoint, B&W 803 D2 speakers, and large room.  Just got it set up, and out of the box it sounds awesome.  I don't think my speakers could sound any better without spending at least double on the amp.  You were right - the Diablo really makes bass come alive on my 803's - really had no idea my speakers could do that.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Hi ,
I am glad you went with what I recommended. Makes me happy I can help out. 
audiotroy's avatar
audiotroy
3,791 posts
 
Viber heard the GT audio at both Cap and at Axpona they were not that good at all heard them at CAP big room heard at Axpona smaller room, image size too big, lack of focus, bass response didn't seem to sound right. 

The only pannel speaker at the show so far that was impressive was the Muiraaudio out of Canada at $15k a bargain.

Our Persona 9H setup sounds more realistic then anything heard so far at the show. 

So far walked the show for two days, haven't heard a single system that did it all.

So far  winners for us that were very good not in any particular order:

1: Big Horns from Germany
2: Muiraudio
3: Alta Audio cheapie $5k speakers sounded great
4: Vimburg 
5: Paradigm Persona 3F not a great setup, needed rake angle to bring up the soundstage and the speakers were too close together, also AQ cables not good, but clarity was excellent, midrange was very good, soundstage was impressive and the bass response was excellent. with a few system tweeks would have been way better for the money the speakers were fanatastic.
6: T+A $75k floorstanders were impressive for such a small size reference speaker, don't know if they are worth that kind of money, the electrostatic tweeter coupled to a line array with buillt in subs was very musical in a way too small room. Would have liked them to be taller

We would love to have you visit our showroom you can hear what a properly setup set of 9H can sound like you can go hear the GT and whatever speakers you also want to hear in the New York Metro area.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers




riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook's avatar
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 
According to the 24 Page ONGOING report on Audio Shark it appears the Favorite room for several people features the T+A CD Player, The DAVE Dac, Dagostino Amps and Magico Speakers (M6 I believe). Why they paired the T+A with the DAVE instead of the Chord BLU2 Spinner is something I would like to know. Its also the Fave room of Mike (so Far) the owner of Audio Shark and Suncoast Audio. He doesnt carry DAG so one certainly cant say he is bias. The AXPONA Report on Audio Shark is HUGE with Photos of an enormous amount of rooms so I would suggest all check it out.
mrdecibel
3,063 posts
 
It will be interesting to hear what the best " per dollar " systems will be. I'm still horny. Enjoy ! MrD.
viber6
2,448 posts
 
audiotroy,
I only heard the GT at my friend faxer's home, in a nice setup of large room with high ceiling.  (At first I misinterpreted your statement.  If you had written "Viber, I heard the GT ....." that would have stated what you mean).  What did you think of the Sanders electrostatic?  Thanks for your unbiased opinion that the Muraudio is an excellent electrostatic.  Hopefully you can become a dealer for this superior speaker at a nice price.  Merrill W uses the Muraudio as his reference speaker, and you might like to become a dealer for the Merrill Element amps.  They promise to be a bargain for SOTA revealing, neutral sound.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Ok guys,
umm I’m here now and the best system I’ve heard for the money which totally blew me away Is in room 404.
Martin Logan 13a with constellation preamp and amp. WOW. I’m shocked how good that system sounds. I’m speechless. 

jafox
1,456 posts
 
Some people just know how to put a system together.
viber6
2,448 posts
 
WC,
Note how the relatively narrow ML 13a sounds good.  It has enough panel area for good sound output, but focuses the sound better with more HF content than the Neo.  The neutral Constellation electronics help.  They are probably using the cheaper Con amps which use the same circuit module as the more expensive and powerful Con models, so the sound is about as good.  Don't miss Sanders and Muraudio for stats.  How does the ML 13a sound compared to the GT Audio and Persona 3F for clarity? 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
13a with constellation amps and preamp smokes the other 2. 
eziggy
137 posts
 
Do you know which Constellation amp and preamp?
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Muraudio sp1- not a tall sounding speaker. No music above your ears. Mids sound muffled to me. They look very cool though. 

Magnepan 3.7i - taller images, nice wide sound but lacks dynamics. Things sound as if you had the “night listening mode” turned on so that there are no dynamic swings. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Sanders 10e: better sounding than muraudio sp1 to me. Good highs, could use more oomph on the lows. More dynamic sounding than magnepan 3.7i plus more “bite” on the highs. Magnepan 3.7i were just a tad relaxed on the highs. 

By they way, I asked in all 3 rooms to play something different such as dire straits “you and your friend “ and the answer was “they don’t have it” so you are essentially stuck with what they play. My comments above are based on what was playing. 



corvette01
99 posts
 
WWSS,
The Vienna Acoustics room at Axpona put on a Iron Maiden album on for me!The other guys  were not very happy with my music selection and cleared out!It made my show!I was mortified at some of the music demos playing on high end systems!I did get a few rooms to play some Floyd though.Had a good time at Axpona!
corvette01
99 posts
 
WCSS-sorry
bigddesign3
237 posts
 
WCSS,
Thanks for going to the show. It makes for a good dose of equipment reviews that you may not have brought into your own home.


From a perspective of "where you are" at in this quest, I think it was a very good choice to get on an airplane and go hear other things.

Drives you crazy sometimes.... the music they play is not the type that we listen to. Don't they want to sell the equipment? I'll never get that, and will tell them right to their face that they are not setting a good example to music lovers that like other types than they do.


I'm glad you listened to the GT Audio speakers. But in the end.... the Martin Logan/Constellation Audio system showed what sounded best, and it was Martin Logan.

Focal's top speaker is so massive. Would love to hear that baby. Enjoy.
4425
861 posts
 
Hate to be a grinch but the op was initially searching for great amplifiers listening to some very good ones one at a time. it would be nice if the thread could recenter toward the initial goal. great amps!
rsf507
2,315 posts
 
If you thought the Sanders were good once heard with better amps they are WONDERFUL! More dynamics and deeper and more controlled bass. Your BLOCK amps would be a great match IMHO.
faxer's avatar
faxer
165 posts
 
In response to your post Audio Troy I do believe you are a dealer In Jersey City in a court of law you and I would be a biased interested witness therefore whatever we would have to say would have to be discounted.  I do not believe you were in my room at Axpona and if you did you did not introduce yourself to either me or Greg. Well I have to say is that you have completely  disregarded any of white Camaro SS posts with regard to how impressed he was he was with the GT system. He visited our room on three separate occasions and spent quite a long time listening to the system and was shaking his head in disbelief I know he love the system. Let the consumer decide You are correct in what you say and that they should listen to your system and to the GT audio works system.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
4425,
i understand your point and I will be reviewing the Jeff Rowland 535 next week. Stay tuned for my impressions of this “affordable amp”

anyhow guys, there was a lot to see and I’m glad I went to the show. I got to meet a few of you which was amazing to say the least. I was also glad to give you my input on components that you wanted my input on. Make no mistake that this type of event allows you to gauge things better as well as to identify the “snake oil” in the industry.
I also like seeing small manufacturers like gt audio, sanders, etc make huge efforts to compete against the big dogs and really bring it to them. Sanders and GT audio were great to say the least. Steve from GT audio was an incredible host that really went out of his way. He played a tremendous amount of music that Included a great record from Michael Jackson on vinyl.
It is SO COOL to interact with these small manufacturers because they try much harder to please you and to talk to you one on one. It feels as if they do whatever they can to earn your business and that is very especial.
To me the worst price/performance ratio room was the Wilson audio Alexx and agostino relentless monos. Zero soul, nothing jumped at you. It was as if they just plugged stuff in and they expected magic to occur. I went 4 different times in this room and it just didn’t keep me there. Horrible music selection on their part as well and it was just a bunch of dudes wearing suits hanging around the gear like they belonged to the secret service. You didn’t dare to walk to them and say “can you please change that funeral music and play something different?”

Steve from GT audioworks played mainstream stuff as well and I said it out loud in his room which was full of people: “thank you Steve for not playing funeral music and playing more mainstream stuff” and what do you think the entire room did when I said that? They all busted out laughing with my comment because they know I’m being honest and keeping it real.

Look I get it, manufacturers want to play their playlists but how about they do that for 2 days out of 3 ? Why not let day 3 of the show be the day where they can ask you to bring your own music to play it? Wouldn’t that be cool if they had the event schedule broken out with DAY 3 being called “ bring your own music day” or something like that ? Don’t you think people would be excited to return on day 3?
Another pain point is WHY are some of these people in the rooms so stuck up on themselves? Why are they so full of themselves? How do you pretend to sell product if you have zero social skills? I get it, most of these products are built by nerds who aren’t exactly social butterflies but then why NOT hire a social butterfly to go on these trips and who knows the gear?

All in all, great show which has made me reevaluate my own system and that is a great thing.
i thank Steve and the entire staff who treated me and everyone in the room incredibly well. Incredible group of people with “soul” and knowledge. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
@audiotroy
i respectfully disagree with your assessment of the gt audio room, persona, and muraudio.
First off, the persona room was empty the 2 times I went in it. I was the only person inside listening on both occasions. Subpar electronics and just didn’t not have any sort of wow factor. Keep in mind, I own that same speaker and have it in my home so I guess you could say I have credibility in my assessment of such.
Secondly, the muraudio room had a cool looking speaker with an interesting look and design but they continued to play music that was just acoustic music. I requested for them to play something with vocals and they played “California dreams” by Diana Krall. I felt like the mids and highs were warm and lacked more definition. Maybe it was the components?
Lastly, and again I mean no disrespect, The persona paradigm can’t come close to the sound of the GT audioworks 3.1. I’m TELLING YOU, as a current paradigm persona owner that they DONT. Yes, I’m bashing something I currently own and I am 100% fine with it because I don’t put food on the table with this stuff. I promised everyone HERE who follows MY THREAD that I’d be real and transparent so here I go:

THE PARADIGM PERSONAS DO NOT TOUCH ANYTHING FROM GT AUDIO.
yes, I’m pretty much saying my personas are INFERIOR in sound quality and I’m admitting that they would get their @ss handed to them all they long. Can’t even compare them. There’s no reading in between the lines here. I’m putting out in front street for everyone to read here.
Enough said 

wesc
10 posts
 
Hey whitecamaross - so cool to meet you. Thanks for taking the time to chat. 

The show was so fun. It’s not perfect, and so many things can turn a good system bad. BUT you get to check out a ton of stuff and meet so many people.

the GT Audio was fantastic...

Also the ARC and Wilson.

I never got the full Focal demo, but those speakers are incredible.

I actually enjoyed the Von Schweikert Audio Endeavor MKII. They were well set out into the room and sounded very large. On closer inspection I found a rear firing tweeter. The blues vocals and guitars coming out of them were amazing. 

I really liked the Lampizator room! The system sounded really, really organic. They also played great music not the same boring stuff you get in so many of the other rooms. And meeting Lukasz was the icing on the cake.

oh and just seeing the Magico subs.... hilarious. Freaking Huge.
viber6
2,448 posts
 
WC,
Thanks for your honest description of all these speakers.  What you say about the Muraudio makes sense, because omni speakers are even more curved and dispersed than the curved panels of ML, so the HF are even more rolled off, mids are also smeared and warm.  Read the intelligent review of the Sanders 10e by Robert Greene in the Absolute Sound.  Greene is an intelligent musician, recording engineer and scientist.  I agree with him about the correctness of flat panel design and direct sound.  This also applies to the GT speaker as a flat panel, so it must be heard fully toed in to realize its full clarity.  Isn't it nice that these 2 contenders are reasonably and competitively priced?  No accident--proper design and value, compared to almost everything else.
dep14
336 posts
 
Nothing takes a good thread off course faster than AudioTroy.  (that said, if you want to hear why what he sells is better, or can outperform, or his amazing system matching skills... he's tremendous at that).

Wish I could have been there to have a beer and pizza with you WCSS, hoping to get back next year.

I'm usually the guy in a concert T-shirt asking them to play my playlist that I bring on my phone just in case... to plug in.  Or if I can drive the streamer for a few minutes.

A few years back Symphony of Destruction was a personal favorite to demo a few very cool MFG's were more than happy to let it rip.

Last year I had two people immediately make me turn off Royal Blood (which is really just good rock music).

Music Direct / ATC let me roll back at 5pm last year to let some remastered Zeppelin rip, that was cool of them.

The magico room was absurdly stuffy (there were a couple last year). No getting them to let some rock rip.

It's a fun show.  I like to get there early on Friday.  Hopefully next year.
closenplay
54 posts
 
I agree with WC, the 13a /Constellation  pairing was special. I have listened to a number of ML models during past shows (Neo included), and have not heard the brand sound better. I believe in large part to the Constellation electronics. Too bad I didn't take note of all the cabling (early senior moment). Equally engaging (perhaps even more) for me was the Burmester room. These were the only rooms that made me forget I was listening to and focusing on gear, thinking/feeling  only.......BEAUTIFUL!  No thinking about "how clear is the midrange?", "bloated or thin bass?", "highs sparkly or rolled off?" Absolutely losing yourself in the music. With that said, I was impressed with the number of rooms that were able to make good (not great) sound (in less than optimal room situations) relative to past shows. I also experienced an inability to make that emotional connection we all love with any of the "big boys" in the too large rooms (too many people, too far from the speakers.They were impressive and had a visceral impact to be sure, but no musical intimacy/engagement. Just very different from how we listen at home. That may seem obvious, but it sure makes evaluating a sound system difficult. As an aside: the gentleman showing both the Pass XA25 and SIT-3 was extremely kind to switch amps to compare the two (yes, both had been on and fully warmed up). Same song on vinyl for each. I hadn't expected that kind of accommodation...fabulous. When I buy, it is his sale for sure!
   WC, sorry our paths didn't cross. Perhaps next year. Journey on!
psnyder149's avatar
psnyder149
160 posts
 
WC,

Again, I wanted to say what a joy it was visiting the show with you on Friday and it was a a pleasure meeting your lovely wife.  You asked me to check out the GT Audio Works and I have been struggling to put it into words how I felt about them.  Firstly, I was not able to seriously listen to the Martin Logan room as it was so packed that I could not get in.  This says something on it's own merit...

IMHO, the GT Audio was in fact the best sounding room as far as panel speakers went that I was able to seriously audition.  I did not have them shut off the subwoofers so can't comment on that distinction but what I heard was very, very good.  Anyone considering this type of speaker would be seriously remiss in not auditioning.  

This being said, I have the same general feeling about the GT speakers that I have experienced with all speakers in this category that I have been fortunate enough to hear.  They sound very good but I don't love listening to them.  They have ever failed to move me.  I say this at risk of igniting a fire storm because of the many strong opinions on this thread but I would like to relay and elaborate on some of what we discussed on Friday...

Focusing only on or even emphasizing, "clarity" or "sparkle" or in fact on any other single facet of the pallet of the sonic spectrum is limited and limiting.  Warmth and tonality, perhaps a result of lower, inner harmonic details are far more important to me than a very detailed presentation.  Sense of weight and body including the extension, authority and control of bass are something that we share a common love of but for our mutual friend out west, this is not as important.  I could continue to name other areas:  sense of pace, rhythm, soundstage, height, depth, dynamic range, etc. all need to work together in presenting an aural picture of the recording that conveys all aspects of the sonic spectrum.  How each of us perceives and relatively values this pallet is a personal choice and is not one that I feel should be imposed upon any one else.  There is not a right and wrong answer to what a person likes.  There is not one answer to what is great or best.  People voicing their opinions of equipment would do well to always remember this.  Which flavors more appeal to one person in no way invalidates the flavors someone else likes and this respect should be overt.  

We visited several dozens of rooms together.  I have to say that I couldn't agree more with WESC's assessments.  Though I know you (WC) didn't' like the choice of music in the Von Schweikert room you appreciated the system but would never choose that system.  I found it to be absolutely stunning.  You and I were both blown away by the Focal Grande's but neither of us would spend that kind of money on that system--though I can say to the one person who voiced his opinion and "bet" on the result about how the Focal's compared to other speakers resoundingly looses his bet.  These were one of the fastest, most detailed speakers I have ever heard of any type of design and this speed and detail was still full of the rich harmonic textures.  But these speakers imposed themselves on a room in a way that they look like they belong in a club or a studio (I feel the same way about the big Wilsons).  The Von Schweikerts could absolutely fit into the decor of a living room.  I had fun listening to the Magico's with the subwoofers but they were not anything I would spend hard earned money on...  You and I both loved the Sonus Faber Aida.  As I have previously commented on your thread, I have heard that speaker on both SimAudio and Audio Research reference equipment (rather than the parent company--"politic'ed"--McIntosh) and this speaker is even better than we were able to hear it at the show.  It just goes to illustrate... all of these systems were great, some just ticked our personal boxes more than others.

There were a couple of takeaways from the show that I thought should be mentioned.  A number of the rooms that we went to (big Wilsons, YG in GTT Audio, SimAudio/Sonus Faber) on Friday afternoon that I revisited on Saturday and the sound was markedly improved.  I found out that GTT was using "out of the package" Kubala Sosna cables... it showed!  All of these rooms were an order of magnitude, improved after a full day of cooking!  I didn't make it back to the Block Audio room, but I fear that it would not have dramatically improved.  I expect that they will have learned much from this experience.  The Friday-Saturday changes really illustrates how important it is that exhibitors fully break in their equipment before bringing it to the exhibition.  In fact, I guess that everything should be set up by Wednesday and played for at least 36 hours before the doors open.  I don't know if this is practical, but it sure seems necessary.

Secondly, I took a friend who was a complete hi-fi novice to the show on Saturday.  Prior, he had only heard one "high end" system in his life, one time--mine (assuming that I might even carry the label of a "high end" as my system is significantly less than $100K).  He was excited and blown away at the quality of sound at most of the rooms.  At the end of the day, he was unequivocal:  his 2 favorite rooms were:  Nordost (using around a $10K KEF, Hegel, mac book air combination (and around $30,000 of Nordost products which is just insane!) and the room with $30,000 Sonus Fabers (I can't remember the model, perhaps Amadi) partnered with SimAudio at an estimated system cost of well under $150,000.  I raise this point to say that you can achieve a very good system that can convey performance, emotion and a great experience without needing to remortgage your house (and sometimes a few of your friends' houses!).  We had heard numerous $200+K systems and they didn't move him as much as something far less expensive.  I suspect that if Nordost had used "only" $10,000 in cables and treatments, that "humble" $20,000 system would have still sounded great.  Well designed equipment partnered with other complimentary equipment intelligently set up with the right accessories makes for a great system, not just dumping money on top of money.

Around a month ago, I strongly encouraged you to come to this show.  I hope that you found it to be a valuable and positive experience.  I certainly enjoyed getting to meet you and your wife and many other people.  At the end of the day, we are a small community of hobbyists with a shared interest in hearing great music in our homes.  To be able to spend 3 days with people sharing this common goal was just great!  Thanks for coming to Chicago to participate!

viber6
2,448 posts
 
closenplay,
Well said about how big speakers in big rooms, listening at far distances don't give musical intimacy/engagement.  This is also true outside of shows, in homes.  The best hybrid ML may be the 13a which is large enough to have good sound output, but listening at 8-10 feet away still yields intimacy/clarity.  The CLX is a special case, because it is a pure electrostatic, and the midrange/HF panel is actually very narrow, which enables the best clarity of the ML line.  
viber6
2,448 posts
 
WC,
No doubt your home 3F system sounds so much better than at the show.  Audiotroy admitted the same.  As you listen at home again, you will probably find that the 3F still has great clarity.  A good discovery at the show was how the ML 13a was so excellent.  Although it doesn't have the huge spaciousness of the Neo, its better accuracy plus good spaciousness (which is more true to life than the Neo) showed you how important clarity is.  Although the Constellation electronics helped, they are probably no better than your Block amps, although the ARC ref 10 is probably veiled and euphonic compared to the Con preamp.  So you had an excellent demo of the ML 13a itself, which serves as a great reference for you.  The Rowland 535/Block comparison should be very informative.

Speaking about vocals, I heard male and female singers up close in a rehearsal yesterday.  The sound comes out of the mouth which is only a few inches, so live singers are like a point source with narrow imaging and great focus/clarity.   If a hifi system makes them sound big, that is totally unnatural and not true high fidelity.  So listen to your 3F again and appreciate what they do well.  I always like to confirm my ideas with more experiences like this, to keep me honest.  
viber6
2,448 posts
 
psynder149,
You raise good points.  Warmth is found to some extent in live music.  In live music, there is no distinction between clarity and warmth, because clarity enables the revealing of subtle harmonic information which is natural warmth.  The problem with warmth in hifi systems is that subtracting details does create a certain kind of warmth, but this leaves the hifi listener with a feeling that subtle musical detail is missing.
grey9hound
1,112 posts
 
@psnyder149

Focusing only on or even emphasizing, "clarity" or "sparkle" or in fact on any other single facet of the pallet of the sonic spectrum is limited and limiting. Warmth and tonality, perhaps a result of lower, inner harmonic details are far more important to me than a very detailed presentation. Sense of weight and body including the extension, authority and control of bass are something that we share a common love of but for our mutual friend out west, this is not as important. I could continue to name other areas: sense of pace, rhythm, soundstage, height, depth, dynamic range, etc. all need to work together in presenting an aural picture of the recording that conveys all aspects of the sonic spectrum.

I agree with you on this one . For far too many people, it is all about detail, which is fine,BUT, how long can you listen without ear fatigue. Highly detailed systems usually can’t be turned up very loud nor can you stand to listen very long. It is impressive, but only at first , until you listen for a bit , then it becomes annoying to the ears.
You could not have stated it better, IMO
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Jeff Rowland 535 amps in bridge mode will take the front stage of my living room this weekend along with the lampizator pacific. 
Let’s see how pure class d amps do with a tube based dac/preamp. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
I concur 200% with you greyhound. 
briano
21 posts
 
I have read this fascinating  journey from the beginning and have found it to be entertaining, informative, silly (repurchasing the same components 4-5 times), and enlightening. Normally I would just move on without commenting but I just can’t tear myself away from reading this in spite of some annoying comments from a few people. Does the term “beating a dead horse” mean anything to you Viper6?
i want to thank WCSS for this ongoing saga. At times I think you’re a crazy neurotic audiophile but then you come back and post some very wise and informative information. Nevertheless, it’s always a fun read.
Just got back from AXPONA. Great show. Hope to share my thoughts soon.
jetter
3,033 posts
 
I was wondering if any of you heard any Salk or Daedalus speakers, if they were at the show. I just think the Salks are OMG beautiful and while I have never heard one I have never read one bad word about them.

This is wrong in a way, but I would have pride of ownership at just owning such a beautiful piece of gear, knowing of course that they must sound really good.
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