WC, have you ever tried any of the Von Schweikert speakers? If not, then any plan on trying one out in the future?
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
I just hope one day, when the stars align, that you will have an opportunity to listen to 30.7 Maggies and share your opinion. I, as Many who follow this thread appreciate your Totally unbiased view of equipment, speakers, amos, pre amos, cables, etc. You are the ONE source I trust as you are open minded, and just seeking the Truth. Thanks for all you do and have done for those of us who fillow your path. |
WC, Whichever speaker lets you hear more of the words in songs is the superior one. That speaker will also reveal more of the natural metal shine of cymbals, triangles, etc. Size, 3D, depth are secondary in musical importance. So far from what you have reported, the 3F is superior to the Neo in musically important criteria. It is the best speaker you have ever had. The larger F models will have more energy than the 3F but more of that energy will come from inferior aluminum drivers. A greater proportion of the 3F energy is from the superior Be drivers. Since the B model uses only Be drivers, it is probable that it has the highest accuracy from 60 Hz on up of any Persona speaker. Listen more to your 3F and don't be hasty to go for the bigger F speakers, which will be more like the Neo for big type of sound, with its lower resolution. |
ihasaguy, I haven’t heard the 30.7 Maggies, but my vast experience with big speakers has shown them to have inferior resolution and more bass heavy sound compared to their smaller siblings. Many years ago, I compared the new Maggie 20 to the 3 model of that time. The 20 was heavy and bloated in the bass/midrange and image, duller due to less HF. On the previous page I told of my early experience with the Tympani 1D. The 30.7 is just a revised Tympani 1D with better resolution due to the ribbon drivers compared to the planar magnetic drivers of the Tympani. The 30.7 will still have a bloated image just like the Tympani. Electrostatic drivers still have more resolution than ribbons even if ribbons have excellent HF extension. |
@whitecamaross If I had more space in my office the other speaker that I wanted to hear (especially for the mid-range) is the Yamaha NS5000. It is the progeny of the original BE speaker drivers from the 1970's, the Yamaha NS1000. However, this time all 3 drivers are made of a new material lighter than BE,
Zylon.The audiophiles I spoke with on this speaker tell me it is the best mid-range they have heard. I can buy this speaker from Canada today and it supposedly will be sold in the USA this summer. The Canadian dealer I spoke with carries both the Persona 3F and the NS5000 and said the NS5000 is better. https://www.avhub.com.au/product-reviews/hi-fi/yamaha-ns-5000-loudspeakers-review-test-488372 Just some info since you brought up the mid-range of the Persona 3F. The tweeter and mid-range of the 5F was what sold me on the 3F for my office. A very holographic and spooky sound. |
I've had Persona 9H's for several months, currently driving them with an Accuphase E650. They had some issues with the treble initially, but break in and the new integrated have taken care of most if not all of that. Play very clean and loud, don't require a lot of power, and are a nice size for my room. I think like any system , they need the right supporting equipment and cabling. Not for every taste, but that's why there are so many different flavors out there. |
I want for everyone to remember this: if you have already formed your opinion about the persona based on what dealers or magazines have said to you rather than your own experience with your own gear then great. You shouldn’t need to follow my experimentation with them. However, if what you want is feedback from someone who has had a great deal of hands of experience with some of the best stuff out there and who doesn’t get paid any SPIFF for selling a product or who doesn’t need it to make a living, then follow my journey over the next few days or weeks. Granted, please in mind that It is not fair for me to compare an 80k speaker to a 10k speaker so I will try my best to judge the speaker against itself. |
In Fairness you have done the same thing...including making choices based on Mike's opinion. For example couple of months ago you stated you couldnt wait to hear the Ayre KXR-20...but then when Mike told you it wouldnt beat the Ref 10 you decided not to try it because of what Mike said. Kind of hypocritical....just sayin. |
I actually did not try the preamp because I was contemplating to do the balanced upgrade on the lampizator so I can give it a shot as a REAL preamp. I STILL want to try the ayre preamp and as a matter of fact I spoke to a dealer about it yesterday. I also haven’t tried it because to be totally sincere, I got a ton of cash strapped here and I need to sell off one of my pieces first. |
WC, I have heard a number of the speakers on your list in the Sonus Faber line as well as the Wilsons. AR Ref 10 plus either AR or SimAudio amplification with any of these speakers and Nordost has always resulted in spectacular sound in my experience. Quintessence Audio is also a Pass dealer, but I have found them consistently less engaging than the AR and SimAudio lines. Not bad, just not as enjoyable. Front end was dCS or Aurender and SimAudio. Axpona is coming up and last year there were many examples of great sounding rooms. Best in show was from Quintessence Audio and they were showcasing systems above. I know you generally hate shows. Previous to Axpona, I shared the same opinion but last year my mind was blown! For as much as you invest, a ticket to Chicago shouldn't break your budget and it might help you in your quest! Let me know if you decide to come and maybe we can meet for a coffee and to hear a few things. Also, bring a list of music on Tidal or Qobuz and I'm sure many will indulge you a track or 2. Good luck! |
yyzsantabarbara, Thanks for the info on the Yamaha NS5000 speaker. I am not necessarily married to electrostatics and I welcome new technology for drivers. My only caveat is when someone says the Yamaha is better than the Persona 3F they could be criticizing the Be tweeter which they think is too crisp. Their bias may be in favor of more laid back sound. You should do the listening comparison yourself. Keep us posted. |
| Post removed |
With all the crazy money spent on these top tier cables.... Speakers that have not been mentioned to compete with the Neoliths, and possibly surpass is the Wilson Alexx. They are $109k new, so they are not for the faint of heart. The Wilson Alexia 2 looks to be a good speaker, but the Alexx is a great speaker that will fill a room in a way that would satisfy audiophiles wanting a large presentation of sound. Lose some of the pricey cables by Nordost, and all of a sudden money appears. This is just a though by a guy (me) that dreams of higher end systems that I cannot afford. |
| Post removed |
So I’m sitting and listening to music again right now. I MUST BE HONEST with myself and admit that the huge soundstage and enormous presentation of the Neolith has poisoned me. I really don’t think I’ll be able to capture it rather easy from any speaker. I was warned by the dealer I bought my Neoliths from; “ I dare you to take them out and put something else in. You’ll immediately realize how good the Neoliths are” well guys, I think this is really the case thus far. I sit here and listen and listen and it feels as if someone turned off half the room. Yes there’s detail, yes there’s great highs and good bass but the presentation’s width, depth, air, 3D, etc is not even close. It’s such a crazy effect that my ears are kinda just waiting to see if the personas come out of nowhere and present at least some of those qualities. I was considering the persona 7f because my reasoning was/is that I should be able to get a larger sound with the bigger model but I’m being told all I will get is more bass and that’s about it because the persona line uses the same tweeter and midrange driver throughout so the sound won’t exactly spread more with the larger models. Im pretty confused at this time about moving to the 7f. That said, One thing I’m not confused about is how lethargic, thin, inferior the Neolith makes other speakers sound. I will go as far as saying that after I bought the Neoliths, I’ve not heard a single speaker in any showroom that I rather own. NOT ONE. The only spesker I thought was rather interesting was an old Wilson audio Alexandria x2 I heard. That sounded pretty big and dynamic. That’s about the only other speaker I’ve heard that certainly caught my attention. |
| Post removed |
I’ve just booked my trip to Axpona. I also heard block audio will have their first U.S. appearance there. You all want to finally see it and hear it? This will be a great opportunity to do so. If you can, head out there and see these monsters in person. I just hope they don’t have some cheap speakers connected to them... |
@whitecamaross you said I want for everyone to remember this:Is this what you did with the MX160 ? You did not try it out ??,or you could have at least seen what the Lyngdorf Room correction was all about. I had a few dropout on the MX151, but only with certain channels from DirecTV. ( CBS) I have not had any audio dropouts on any other sources. I sure wish you would give it a chance. It would help your room tremendously . |
Quote whitecamaross "I’ve just booked my trip to Axpona" "My issue with shows is that they have their playlist and that’s it. Each room will only play what they know sounds good and won’t allow anyone to play their own music. I can’t gauge any speaker or equipment with music I have no knowledge of." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a particular peeve of mine. I too have been in rooms where they pull that crap. I get it..an exhibitor invests a lot of time and money into a show and someone asks to play an ear bleeding CD from the late 80’s that makes your setup sound like an AM radio....Whats an exhibitor to do ? My solution is to quietly sit through the less than ideal demo smiling while gritting my teeth, and I can tell you this can really make time stand still for me. As soon as the piece is over I thank the person and then offer to play them a well recorded piece to show the capabilities of the system. People may have an emotional attachment to a piece of music regardless of the quality of the recording, that’s what being a music lover is all about. And not playing the same damned Patricia Barber or Roger Waters track all weekend long !! I have enough confidence in my speaker to take any lumps a bad recording or a bad demo room can dish out. I find most visitors have great musical taste and have turned me on to many a great track. So please do stop by room #1430... we will be glad to play your records, or CD’s. Regards, Greg GT Audio Works |
WC, I hear ya. Yes, big spaces are addictive, which are only obtained with large panels. But recall my experience with the big panels of the Magneplanar Tympani 1D. Very soon the big space lost its appeal, because musical detail was compromised. It is amazing how I went from the big space of the Tympani to the tiny space of the BBC minimonitor. The better clarity of the mini even with inferior dynamic drivers was the greater reward. I agree that the larger Personas will not duplicate the big space of the Neo, and will probably have less clarity than the 3F. I am even considering the model B for myself with its Be-only drivers hopefully bringing maximum clarity. You might even consider the Yamaha NS5000 with its possibly superior Zylon-only drivers. One review noted that the tweeter is a little laid back, which you might like, although I probably won't. So the next speaker that I go to listen to will be the Persona B. If you are still addicted to big spaces, you might go to listen to the huge Maggie 30.7, but its clarity might be less than the Neo because of the inferior ribbons compared to the stat drivers of the Neo. Forget about any Wilson, whose driver technology is inferior to Be. My listening to Sabrina and Sasha showed them to be really veiled compared to any electrostatic. The Personas or Yamaha are probably SOTA dynamic speakers. Just appreciate them for what they do, and realize that you cannot have everything. Admit that designs with big sound fields are compromised in clarity. I think the best thing to do is nothing at present. Live with the better clarity of the 3F for an extended period of time, and then see if your infatuation with big spaces wears off in favor of clarity. BTW, I am a little confused about whether you meant that the 3F has the best midrange for a dynamic speaker, or whether its midrange still beats the clarity of the Neo. You rated the 3F midrange as 10/10 at first, but do you now find that the midrange of the Neo is 10/10 and the 3F is only 9.5/10? Are words in songs clearest with the Neo or 3F? |
I appreciate those rooms where I can at least play one or two cuts I'm familiar with so I can get a true feel on how the system is sounding. The GT Audio Works room has always let me play my tunes and then I'll listen to songs Greg believes allows his speakers/system to really shine, a perfect compromise. |
| Post removed |
I had the MX151, and while RoomPerfect was the best room EQ I’ve experienced in my room (over Aud. and DL), it did not exceed what I can get with quality 2 channel components (in a non-treated room by the way). I believe it’s due to a weak pre-amp in the MX product vs a dedicated pre-amp. That’s why I think the MEN220 would be a better product to try with a 2 channel system. Dave |
| Post removed |
Guys we have the 3F the B and the 9H on display. They all sound similar and quite different, the 3F do not sound like a smaller 3F nor do the 9H sound like a bigger 3F The 3F sounds way smaller, and the midrange and treble do sound different. We took the 3F from our smaller demo room and brought them into our big soundroom and hooked them up to the same setep, in every way they sounded inferior, obviously less bass, and of course a much smaller soundstage. The way the 9H fills the room is totally different, also the 9H have a huge increase in clarity across the entire spectrum. Even though the tweeter and midrange are the same, the bass drivers are different, and the crossover points and cabinets are different. We have also heard the 3F vs the 5F and they too sound different the 5f aside from having a bit more bass, sounds far bigger, the difference also appears that the midrange seems smoother and the presentation sounds more relaxed. If you stop and think about this it must make sense, there is no way any manufactuer would make a more and more expensive set of loudspeakers if they sound identical to one another as no one would purchase any of the more expensive models. The 3f and the 5f use the same drivers except for a larger cabinet but the additional bass driver and taller cabinet creates a more relaxed presentation. The 7F and 9H uses a more advanced lower bass drivers, and the 9H uses active bass correction to provide the tightest bass response in any size room. As per the Persona 9H vs the Neolith totally different presentations, the Personas will sound smaller yet will have a much more three dimensional presenation, and will have greater transparency. The Neoliths will have a greater sense of size as they are bigger loudspeakers, however, they do not create as realistic a soundstage, nor do they have the treble transprency as all Martlin Logan's have a slighthly recessed uber treble, which is an effect of the myler diaphram material and the curved construction. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Persona dealers |
WC, Yes, I realize that the Neo has "BIGGER mids that hang in the air," but the critical question is whether the Neo or the 3F is superior for details, such as hearing all the words and their inflections in the song. When a woman murmurs and whispers sweet nothings, the sound of her voice in all its subtleties gets us excited, and we don't ask "where is your soundstage, depth, etc." Is that another great woman analogy, or what? LOL. Your answer will shed light on the critical question of whether the electrostatic diaphragm and its total control by the stator sandwich electric field can be approached or beaten by the new high tech materials for dynamic drivers, such as Be in the Personas or Zylon in the Yamaha. My intuition is that the stat diaphragm which is still lower in mass than these new materials and is tightly controlled by the stator sandwich is still superior in resolution/detail. However, this is a great opportunity for you to do careful listening and say whether my intuition is correct or not. |
audiotroy, Thanks for your info on several Persona F speakers and the comparison with the Neolith. I have not heard the Neolith, but have heard large curved Soundlabs and agree with your analysis based on listening and theoretical considerations of the drawbacks of large curved panels. I am looking forward to visiting you to hear the Personas (you probably know who I am). Without hearing them, I venture to say that if the 5F sounds "more relaxed" than the 3F, this is because the inferior aluminum additional bass drivers which cover the range from 450 Hz down are a greater proportion of the sound than in the 3F which has only 1 bass driver. If you can live with the dynamic and low frequency limitation of the B model, it should provide the purest sound below 450 Hz because the superior Be driver is used rather than the aluminum drivers of the bigger models. Please do not use a sales pitch and say that the more expensive item must be better. Often the more expensive speakers are designed to have bigger sound, but their clarity could be inferior. Huge rooms of the rich will demand bigger speakers, but the average moderate sized or small room will make a better match and possibly more clarity with the smaller models. Obviously the small B won't match the large room as well as the larger models, so it is worthwhile for a speaker manufacturer to have different models to suit different rooms, tastes and budgets. Still, if a listener loves the clarity of the small B, he can sit close to it at one end of a large room and get the advantage of the clarity even in that large room. |
jetter, Ah, the charms of experience for both of us. Since we love our speakers, it doesn't matter that the resale value is much lower, because we are not selling. We have enjoyed them for a long time, so they have provided value. As for my Audiostatic, I have collected spare panels and transformers. Same for my friend who owns KLH 9 stats. Take a look at the audiostatic website which offers a new design which nearly fits my ideal of the most perfectly designed stat--moderate size with relatively narrow flat panel. The designer is old, and I am not sure they are really available. If they are, I may take a chance for only 3000 euros plus customs duty. What is the usual duty from Holland to NY? Having been inspired by WC's willingness to take a chance on far more expensive items, I will try to get them. |
Audiotroy, i will be at Axpona and hope to hear the 9h or 7f. My biggest issue is that most dealers don’t carry the persona line let alone the Martin Logan Neolith. Today I went back to the Neoliths and the sheer size of the soundstage was quite welcomed. As far as the “relaxed” presentation, I think it has to do with doing the right system match just like the personas cant be with bright electronics. The 3f sounds very very small but keep in mind I am comparing them to a huge speaker. For most folks, the 3f would be incredible. If the 9h sounded half as big as the Neolith, I’d be willing to buy them but right now it is pure speculation on my end. |
Hello WC, somewhere in this thread Is your room size but darn if i can find it. I too am on the hunt for my next 10 year speaker. Going to axpona too. I have Yg anat iii coming in for a review but want to listen to about 30 other speakers at axpona. Sanders, ML CLX, Magico, Vemberg and on are on my list. |
VIBER, If you use the Post Office/EMS etc there are no taxes/duties on packages coming from outside the USA. You only get nailed if you use FEDEX/UPS/DHL etc 80% of my dealings are with European customers. If you have to use FED/UPS etc you can always have a lower value placed on the forms...unless the package is insured for X Amount. |
Took about 200 hrs for my 5fs to sound their best. Cerious Technologies Matrix Speaker wire. Sounds pretty good. The tweeters sound very good to me but I can certainly see without the properly matched electronics they could get irritating. Aurender front ends with a tube pre amp and a pair of mono blocks on the warmer side and you will be all set. I have them spiked to Combak Harmonix Rf 909xMKII tuning bases and they took the Personas to another level |
Gotta like that Martin Logan sound. I listened to dynamic speakers for a week, and went back to the Logans, and the vocals and instruments just floated in the air. Something I'm not getting with dynamic drivers. But is it the end all to best sound. I think not. I know in my heart that one day I will hear something more full bodied, with the "in the air" type presentation of electrostatics. |