Oh my gosh Viber, you're still on the Ref6 vs. Ref10 discussion? Didn't WC put this to rest or at least attempt to do so at least a dozen times now? On some music he prefers the DAC to the amp and other music he likes the Ref10 in the loop. Can't we all just accept this is what he likes?
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
hi Jafox, i have two 20a dedicated circuits and i also have the standard 15a outlets. i had the blocks turned on on "eco mode" where they just idle in class ab and then the titan was off to the side on a 15a outlet just idling all day long and the night prior as well. i have 4 outlets total behind my equipment. So in regards to the dac vs ref10, again the dac is incredible as a preamp, but you need outstanding rca cables and power cords to really make it shine. The ref 10 will sound good with more music types than the dac will. I loved the dac, but you all need to remember i go through many amps and i want to be sure i am being fair with each amp i buy. i don't want it to ever be a situation where the amp doesn't sound good because the dac does not have enough juice for it. i played the dsd album from "thriller" and selected the song "human nature" and it was no contest the ref10 ate the dac alive on that song. It just made his voice bigger, soundstage went behind your head and the dac did not do any of that. It gave a good presentation but it was a little more lethargic in comparison. What i might do is to purchase or demo a platinum 7 power cord on the dac to see how much better it gets. |
@whitecamaross There is a preamp that is very special. It is L2 Signature Preamplifier by VinnieRossi and his designer focuses more in the preamp design . The previous model has incredible review that blow everyone heard it. Also check the videos :P > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDEXbhtnykI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQh2fAVhG0Y |
WC, First - thanks for sharing, because without you many of us (me on top of the list) would not get these experiences. Second - we each have our own preferences, I explained my preferences earlier - with the request that we each recognize and respect each other's preferences. You explained and I certainly recognize the desire to enjoy more music, especially music we've grown up with. There's a lot of merit to that (as I personally experienced disappointment with a lot of songs I grew up with). Explaining "sweatness" and being clear about it allows us to get even more insight with this journey! Again - a BIG THANK YOU! I did want to ask a question about this past Saturday's listening session (and I don't find it odd that everyone in the listening session agreed on preferences because I've experienced that too). Were all the cables the same quality / grade level when making comparisons? I'm not familiar with wireworld cables and that's why I'm asking. The same speaker and amp power cables were always used but the interconnects seemed to be different, in addition to being balanced (xlr) verse single ended (rca). I'm uncertain what was used first, then the platinum 8 rca interconnects were used and stated the dac's performance was more competitive. Were these cables the same as the balanced cables used with the ref10 and - most importantly, how do you think this effects the performance in each comparison? I understand the ref10 provides a higher gain output signal and allows for multiple inputs / sources to be used. Finally - I would REALLY like to get your input on the Pass - XS 300 because these (and the Alexia II's) are the 2 components I would like to get one day (with our oldest going to college next year and 2 additional siblings behind him - I'm uncertain when that will happen). And, if I'm not being too selfish, you could make a comparison to the XA-200.5's (the amplifiers we now have). THANK YOU AGAIN for sharing your experiences, it's something I look forward to absorbing within my crazy busy family and work schedule. To everyone: I hope we all realize to appreciate wc sharing his experiences and preferences, think of what it would be like if wc were to stop sharing with us? Most sincerely - Thomas (stassoc) |
Tjassoc: Speaker cables: wireworld platinum 7 on the highs and wireworld silver 8 on the lows (Both are the same length) Balanced cables coming from the preamp are wireworld silver 8. Usb cable is platinum 7. Powercords on the blocks arre 10 dollar stock power cords and the powercord on the dac is the silver 7. Powercord on the preamp is the shunyata sigma nr. I would love to get hands on the xs300 but we can’t seem to come to an agreement in terms of price. The block audios need this caliber of competition to really put them to the test. We will wait and see if the xs300s will ever make an appearance here. |
whitecamaross Thank You for continuing to share your Audio journey. I enjoyed a very nice demo last week with a Pass Labs X-150.8 amp. Although it was my first audition with the Pass Labs brand, I am an experienced listener of other brands, including Threshold. I have a feeling that the XS will be your last power amp purchase (unless curious about other brands not auditioned).ARC pre-amps are a sonic match for Pass Labs as well. Staying tuned. Happy Listening! |
@ bigddesign3 @ron17Thanks for the acknowledgement re room treatment. I can understand when someone has really good sound finding it difficult or impossible to conceptualise the room playing such a big role in the resultant sound. To the point where a relatively modest system in a properly treated room will provide a musically more rewarding and enjoyable experience than a mega system in an untreated room. WC sounds like you are just having too much fun. For unadulterated and effortless dynamics to outdo the speakers you now have would be to install a full horn system. Needs a big room though. Of general interest the great plains audio Altec 288-L compression driver measures 115.7!dB. A 4 watt amp driving this will hit you with 121.7dB. Altec has a multicell horn that will accept 4 model 290E mounted and can deliver 82.5dB half a mile away. I wonder if the neighbours would complain. Who needs a power amp, could drive these things with a preamp LOL |
lemonhaze, Absolutely true about everything you said about horns. I got the audio bug after hearing my father's mono custom large corner cabinet using the Altec 15" woofer and Altec 511 sectorial horn which covered 500-22Khz. Very smooth, natural and authoritative sound. But when I got electrostatics I heard the horn coloration, which was much less than an 811 horn I heard later which covered 800 Hz on up. It seems like the Neo gives the best combination of authoritative dynamics with a powerful amp, plus lack of coloration in middle and HF. The Neo's dynamics are not as much as a good horn, but they are plenty enough so that the most important feature of clarity means that the total Neo package is preferable to a horn. |
WC - Thanks for all your effort organizing and relaying your findings from the shootout. Sounded like a good time. Curious if your observations would agree with Audiodrom's rank (Block is their #1 rated amp for sound overall thus far and the Titan #3, Simaudio at #2). Aside from this thread, I haven't found any other source that tries to compare many amps/line stages/speakers etc. in one location. And trying to get a sense for whether their rankings can be duplicated. The only two submetrics of 12 that the Titan matched the Block was for 'Bass Management - weight' and 'Clarity and Delicacy - Detail'. The Block set itself apart from the Titan the most for Tonal Accuracy and Spatial Resolution (holography and soundstage depth in particular). Would you agree? (Of course rankings have many caveats/influences, in particular, it appears Audiodrom utilized different equipment for the two comparisons, and the Titan review was a few years before the Block, but I believe they try to normalize for that...if at all possible. They do note that a 90 out of 100 today could be far less say in 10 years from now). Anyway, thanks again, and looking forward to tuning in this year! |
Avantgardes have horns to fit any size room! I am considering the Uno Finos XD for my smallish 11x14 and have audioned them in a 14 x 17 room in which they sounded more than great. Careful buying used because latest XD series is the one to get and proper set up by a knowledgeable person or dealer is CRITICAL. |
zprr: the blocks just have so much of everything in spades. As a matter of fact, I DO NOT THINK the xs300s have the level of clarity and bass control (going by my recollection of the xs150 I owned). I think they would sound slow with nowhere near the bass control of the blocks. The titan has a huge soundstage with incredible dynamics and fullness. I could be perfectly happy with it had I not heard the blocks right after. the level of construction of the blocks is just incredible. You look at the binding posts, Heatsinks, etc and it screams quality. Lastly, remember that I have not really tried playing with powecords with them as of yet. I briefly tried the shunyata sigma nr but I will try wireworld platinum 7 powecords soon. Overall, the titan is a special machine with tons of control and dynamics. It is above many amps I’ve previously owned here. This amp fights amps costing far more. It would kill any of the pass labs solid state amps by a long shot. It would spit out parasound, Krell, classe, McIntosh, theta digital, Hegel, and many more I can’t think of right now. If you have speakers that need to be woken up and spread a huge soundstage, dynamics and neutral then this is your amp. Hands down |
dguitarnut, Years ago I heard the Avantgarde Trio is a small room at a show. I sat very close, so you might think that the Trio would sound congested in that telephone booth of a room with so many people listening behind me. But no, the beauty and naturalness of the sound was in abundance, the HF were great, and there were no horn colorations. All this from a low powered tube amp. Then I heard the Duo at a home, but the HF were rolled off. Careful setup may be more critical for lower freq than HF, but I was shocked at the difference between the Trio and Duo. Obviously, the room and so many things could have differed in the setups. Grey9hound would say that you should get the best AG speaker you can afford, and use Lyngdorf room correction for compatibility with your room. Horns have more resolution than unloaded dynamic drivers, so the Trio is best because all the drivers are horn loaded. You don't need those humongous bass horns for your small room. The AG Trio I heard was before the humongous bass horns came out. |
WC, Good. Reviews say that the Titan is somewhat euphonic but otherwise excellent. Your findings show that the Block is superior in every way, as I had suspected. I wouldn't waste money on the big Pass if you have to sacrifice the excellent cheap amps like the Titan and Plinius. They are all keepers, and the Plinius may still be the champ for HF snap/sparkle. The Plinius is also likely to beat the Pass xs300 except for powerful dynamics. Pass is passe (pronounced "pass-ay")--gone in your life. The next meaningful shootout should be between either the Rowland 925 or 535, and the Block. Selling the Momentum, Gryphon and Sonus Faber would give you the money for the 925. Better yet, get the cheap 535 which Guido raves about, first as a $6K stereo for judging clarity at reasonably loud levels, then if you like the tonal qualities, getting 2 mono bridgeable 535 at $12K for full dynamics. This should give the 925, Block a run for their much more money. |
Considering the power-happyness of WC's speakers, I would rather recommend that if WC decides to try out the Rowland M535, he opts for a bridged pair instead.... As I already mentioned a few times, I have a bridged pair in my system that drive the somewhat wilding Vienna Die Muzik, and results are stunning.... Talk about bass control, holographic resolution/staging, frequency extension, free of intermodulation distortion, and yes.... Sheer immersiveness and emotionality! To my ears the critters make magic. Saluti, G.
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Hi Guido, I have been considering trying some different amplifiers and the Rowland 535 amplifiers could make my list, but only if I were to use them in the mono version. However, there is some pertinent information I could not find on the Rowland website or anywhere else, such as the bridged power into 4 ohms, and the input impedance when the amplifiers are bridged. I would really like to confirm the two-channel performance is not compromised in some way (including driving lower impedance loads) when the amplifiers are bridged. It appears these are Class D amplifiers with a SMPS. The amplifier module appears to be the same Pascal S-PRO2 as used in the previous model 525. However, there are differences between the older 525 and newer 535, such as the large bank of capacitors and the large silver EMI filter in the 535. I would have to know more about the bridged performance before considering a pair....I did note the Pascal amp module is designed to handle 1 to 4 channels. |
Ok so I just listened to the ref10 vs Lampizator dac for 2 hours at about 95db The dac now has platinum 7 powercord and interconnects. 1. The lampizator brings it. It comes with force and tons of detail. Awesome soundstage but not as big as the ref10 2. Lampizator sounds awesome and there’s even a little more detail at times that might not be so apparent through the ref 10 3. The lampizator can get a little “hot” sounding when you sit down for quite a bit. I noticed a little “ringing” in my ears which has never happened through the ref 10 4. Both are excellent with excellent recordings but the ref10 kills it with poor recordings. 5. The ref10 has better bass control or just meatier bottom end. It really comes down to preferences here. It is like Pepsi and coke to be honest. Some feel Pepsi is too sweet and others find coke too bitter. I personally could go either way but I did notice that my ears were getting a little “overwhelmed” with the lampizator because it’s just a little more in your face. The ref10 cruises with wide soundstage and smoothness and never ever causing fatigue. |
WC, You well expressed the superior clarity of the Lampi preamp stage vs the ref 10. But my experience with euphonic electronics is that soundstage is inflated with blurring of details, like taking a picture and magnifying it without increasing the resolution. The magnified picture gets blurred. You can only enjoy a larger picture more if the resolution is increased. If the Lampi gets "hot sounding", you are listening too loud. Accurate sound and accurate live volumes is the ultimate pleasure, but being able to push the volume to louder than natural just because rolled off HF let you, is just plain volume distortion, as well as the distortion from blurred details. It all comes down to accuracy and resolution. If you still crave a little euphonics, go for the ref 6 instead of ref 10. |
WC, I remember you mentioning that someone has used the Audio Research REF 750 SE with the Neolith, and it was the best amplifier he had heard with the Neoliths. What do you think of trying them for yourself? On a scale of top amplifiers to try, I would think that the Audio Research REF 750 SE may be one of those choices. I noticed on Audiogon that one is for sale that has only 380 hours on it, and is a year old. When looking at what other amps you can audition, the Audio Research REF 750 SE seems like a logical choice (If you can get it at a good price, and be able to sell it for not much loss). Just me thinking out loud....... |
WC, As bigddesign3 said, the ARC ref 750SE is probably the most accurate and powerful ARC amp to try (I remember someone recently saying that, according to his home trial). If it is still euphonic compared to the Block, which seems likely, then tubes are dead for you. I'll bet even the Titan will beat the ARC in every way. Just get the ARC at a low price so you don't take a loss when you sell it. For preamps, the Block should be a contender. Don't forget the Lux C900, which has some sweetness without false tubey soundstage bloating, plus authentic detail plus tone controls that are so useful. |
Hello @Mitch2, Sent you a PM so we can chat directly about M535.
Meantime… you are correct…. M535 does sport the Pascal S-Pro2 module. You are also correct about the EMI filter and large bank of capacitors…. These are not the only internal differences…. For M535, Rowland has adopted in the input stage the same large Lundahl transformers that he used in the higher end M625 S2 and M725 S2 in order to enhance common mode noise rejection, and like M625 S2 and M725 S2, M535 circuit components are mounted on multilayer Roger ceramic boards.
As I mentioned, my own speakers have a bit of a wild impedance curve…. I believe that in some frequencies they might be dipping down to the 3Ohm load range…. But what I am finding is that the M535 grips them powerfully and so tunefully from the lowest bass to the high treble… I have been playing a lot of large scale works for organ, orchestra, as well as some Krall and other vocalists, and chamber music with double bass….
What I find to be part of their magic in addition of what I already mentioned is the fabulous pitching of bass lines…. I am not getting the dreaded fuzzy unpitched bass that Die Muzik tend to deliver if amps can’t control their bass drivers, nor the cardboardy bass generated by overcontrolling amps… I consistently hear a very clean foundational bass…. Which, by the way, is also harmonically exciting.
I was also concerned that performance in bridged mode would be compromised…. But my worry was unfounded…. These babies approach the performance of my big Rowland M925 monos.
One musical selection that simply stunned me yesterday is the slow section of Rachmaninof’s first Symphonic Dance for 2 pianos played by Ax and Bromfman on a Sony CD: the spatial holography, realism, and sheer emotionality was jaw-dropping.
For mono operation, you do not use the stereo inputs and output connectors at all… M535 have a dedicated XLR input, as well as a dedicated output terminal… Then you just flip a toggle switch on the back panel to enable mono operations…. Jeff told me that he implemented these ergonomic features for mono users because he is confident that he has achieved bridged performance that equals stereo mode.
What speakers will you be driving?
But I do not want to derail this fine thread of WC’s… I sent you a PM with my direct contact info… I’ll be happy to tell you much more about my adventure with these little marvels via email or phone, including what I found out about those specs.
Saluti, G.
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@respected_ent i might do that then. For now, here are my final thoughts: The Pacific Dac is SPECTACULAR in every way. Not only is it a great dac, but it is incredible as a preamp too. It is more of the type of presentation that you would get in the front rows where things seem a bit more "energetic" and in your face. You get all the detail and clarity you need, but if you like to listen quite loud, it might make your hearing a little agitated after a few hours of listening. The ref10 is more of the presentation you get in middle and back rows. It is larger, less in your face and NEVER EVER FATIGUING. It does not matter how hard to try to get fatigued, the ref10 just won't ever do that to you. You can blast your ears with it and it just wont do that to you. One last thing, please remember that for the most part, in order for anyone to do LONG LONG LOOOONG hours of listening sessions without any fatigue, you need smooth, relaxed, musical presentations. You can't be at an IMAX theater with 20,000 watts of power at full throttle watching MAD MAX 6 hours in a row. Your ears won't take the punishment. However, maybe you other tubes things will get super interesting for the pacific dac :) |
WC, Speaking of ear fatigue, I don't enjoy any listening to either live music or my system even at moderate volumes for more than 1 hour. Live concerts last about 2 hours, with less than 1 hour in the 1st half, intermission about 15 min to take a break and talk to people, then the last pieces for less than 1 hour. This is an intelligent way to experience music, otherwise your sensations are dulled from prolonged bombardment. If I take breaks and come back to listen, the immediate impression is fresh stimulation with everything sounding better. This reminds me of when I go boating. The initial experience of getting off land is a great release, then I get saturated and 1 hour is enough. Wait some time, then go out again and you get the freshness again. So two 1 hour experiences is far preferable to a single 2 hour experience. You can think of parallels with lots of other pleasurable experiences, ha ha. |
w1000i i did hear about the musical fidelity ams100, but that is a hard amp to come by. I read an article about it a few nights ago. It certainly has my interest. viber6 i understand your way of thinking from your last post. However, i think i am not the only person who enjoys listening to music for longer than an hour at a time. My explanation above was to simply state the differences between both. THIS IS WHY the ref10 is dearly loved by a ton of audiophiles. Maybe it is the fact that it allows you to just sit for hours and hours and NOT ONCE do you get tired or bored of listening? |
WC, I agree that occasionally it is fun to listen for hours at a time. The best way to do this is to listen for 30 min, take a little break, then listen again, etc. Typical songs last for only a few minutes in order to deliver maximum impact. Maybe the best example I can think of that illustrates the disadvantage of prolonged stimulation is eating ice cream or chocolate. The first bites are the best, then you feel the addiction and compulsion coming on. You finish the pint or quart of ice cream, then feel the guilt that the last few spoons really weren't that good, then maybe you feel a little sick, then the next day you look fat and the scale makes you feel depressed. Too much audio in one session does that. Also, A/B tests should ideally be conducted by playing a very short selection, not a long piece, to better tell the differences because of the initial higher sensitivity. Several short A/B tests can be done in one session, but not for many hours because then you lose your ability to hear differences. |
Viber, Your opinions are .. just that. Some of us like extended listening sessions . That requires the presentation to NOT be "in your face" It can still have all of the treble and not be "in your face" I know that you have a hard time with it , but "in your face " gets old quick.. It is impressive.. at first... BUT , not for the long haul. Of course ,that is my opinion.but, I tend to think that I am not alone. It sounds like WC is in the same camp. That why i said before ...To Each his own. |
Guido, Thanks for your further info about the Rowland 535. For most listeners, a single 535 should have enough power. In your listening tests at soft to reasonably loud volumes, did the single 535 have more clarity/purity than bridged 535's? Also, the Rowland amps that use the Pascal module might be at a theoretical disadvantage than Merrill's use of custom made modules using higher bandwidth faster GaN devices. The Merrill Element thread is attracting attention, and one poster said that as GaN becomes more widely used, the prices of products should drop, so he won't spring for any class D until a pair of monos gets down to $5000. The Element 114 will be available late Spring, early Summer. For now, a single 535 is priced right, but I question spending double for the 2 monos if you say that the single has at least as good clarity as the monos. There is one possible disadvantage of bridged amps--they have higher distortion into low impedances than the same amp not bridged. |
grey9hound, You contradict yourself. Although "in your face" carries a negative connotation, it is factually true and you have admitted, that "in your face" is associated with more treble. So, "NOT in your face" means it has less treble, not "still have all of the treble" (your words). And WC accurately described how the front row sound is more detailed than the middle/back row sound, although the front row sound has negatively been taken to mean "in your face." You just still don't acknowledge that front row sound is more detailed than laid back sound, but WC knows it. Concertgoers who sit up front don't get ear fatigue. Only audiophiles who push the volume beyond natural levels get ear fatigue. I just happen to get less enjoyment after a certain time period, whether it is live music, or any audio system at any volume or whether it is upfront or laid back. Everyone has their individual time limits, after which the listener gets saturated. |
@greyhound I agree with what you said about things not needing to be in your face in order to be enjoyable. I also agree that MOST OF US judge components by listening for 5 minutes and in reality it takes more time than that. This is why anytime I give my initial impressions I call them “preliminary” Because they might change as I sit down for weeks with a component. Sometimes I’ve had an impression that wowed me and then as I take my time to compare I realize that I need to scratch a few things I’ve said. With that being said, we keep going back to the “live presentation” and the need to get closer to it, but I remember going to live performances that made my ears bleed... does this mean I want my ears to bleed at home too? Not really... I want my components to bring it to my home but also being “enjoyable” and “listenable”. I want them to “remaster” these live Performances and make them even better at my home. The other day I took my wife out for a drink and there was a band playing live music with all sorts of instruments and you know what she said? This sounds awful (it was very loud) and she plugged her ears with a paper napkin.... I laughed and said “ oh so you NOW SEE AND HEAR THE DIFFERENCE FROM BAD SOUND AND FROM WHAT WE HAVE AT HOME HUH?” she said “ I can’t believe How the human ears get used to good or bad sound “ |
Hello Viber, I will start to report any differences that I experieince between M535 in bridged mode and in stereo mode as soon as I connect a unit in stereo mode. Until now I have used a pair of M535 in bridged mode only. Per what Mr. Rowland has told me, there is no musical degradation with M535 in bridged mode.... And that is why he implemented the bridging usability features I mentioned in my last post. But, proof is as always in the pudding.... Thus I will report on my own eventual bridged vs stereo findings, and much prefer not to judge things a priori. Similarly, I will not attempt to crystalball whether a hypothetical amp not yet released and that I have not listened to, based on GaN transistors, may eventually be preferable/same/worse/similar/different from an amp that I am intimately familiar with. Whether or not a user may prefer a M535 bridge pair or a single stereo unit depends mostly on the particular requirement and listening preferences of the user, rather than on some prejudged percentage of users who "will" prefer one form or another. What is true instead is that if a user commenced with a single unit, and later decides that he/she might want greater authority/stage/imaging, they can add a second chassis and that reconfiguration is a breeze.
G.
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"
Concertgoers who sit up front don't get ear fatigue. Only audiophiles
who push the volume beyond natural levels get ear fatigue.
" WHAAAAT!!! I can only assume this meant acoustic music. Anyone who has been to a Concert that is not acoustic, knows how much louder it is being in the front. I have been to many a concert over the years, and up front is a recipe for ringing ears. I must admit.... that being closer (not in front) lets you hear all the musicians better (ie: the drummer). Over the years (and I have had a lot of them), I would steer away from buying "LIVE" albums of my favorite artists. The only one that comes to mind that was enjoyable was Peter Frampton's. Most of us audiophiles or music lovers with a decent stereo will enjoy a studio album of the same music. It's just that simple. My Lady was a sound engineer for many years, and the stories she can tell about "LIVE" performance, and the room correction headaches are endless. These statements have nothing to do with Classical music. That's a whole different banana. I have been in the front of a venue many times where I was being pushed into the PA system by a whole lot of stoned people. They were just as happy to have ringing ears for a while after the concert. But to sit down to listen to your favorite artists, or even new ones always sound better with an album produced in the studio. Drops Mic. |
WC, Live rock is usually very loud and a lot of the instruments are amplified. The amps and speakers in those live rock concerts are far inferior to those of all the posters on your thread, so no wonder your wife hated the sound, especially compared to what you have at home. So live rock is not what I refer to as live music which uses natural unmiked instruments and unamplified voices. Except for a very few unusual pieces, classical music is unamplified. Live jazz performances I have been to are more similar to classical concerts, which are at sane volume levels in a range of 30-90 dB with rare peaks of 100 dB. With live classical and much of jazz, you hear the sound of the instruments uncorrupted by mediocre electronics and speakers, so that is the reference point for anyone judging the qualities of the fine electronics discussed here. |
biddesign3, Yes, I meant concerts of acoustic, unamplified music. Also see my post to WC just above. Too bad you were pushed into the PA system by stoned people who could care less about sitting down and quietly listening to the music. That's why building a great system for your own private enjoyment is a worthy goal. Classical music concertgoers sit quietly and are respectful of others. They hold their coughs until the few seconds of breaks between sections of a piece. Latecomers are not permitted to enter the auditorium until the music has a break. |
WC, Appreciation of classical music is best done by more exposure to it, like learning a foreign language by immersion. I could recommend a few pieces that are very exciting and would stimulate you. The first movement (section) of Beethoven's 5th Symphony, the last few minutes of the first movement of Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony, the last movement of Alexander Glazounov's THE SEASONS in the outstanding recording of Ernest Ansermet conducting the Suisse Romande Orchestra. All the other recordings of the Glazounov are slower and boring by comparison. The Beethoven and Tchaikovsky have big sudden contrasts between soft and loud. The Tchaikovsky has big brass fanfares that will thrill you. The Glazounov recording is FAST, which is surprising from the Conductor who was in his 80's at the time in 1962. It's got loads of percussion and everything exciting. All these pieces are FAST, and I guarantee you will enjoy them. |