He can’t make money on those Viber. He has to buy them cheap and sell for a profit or he won’t do it .
It is really what it is all about for him. If you look at all of the recommendations that he is not interested in , it is obvious. That is why he doesn’t know what tubes he has in his REF10 .It is also why he won’t give us a Demo song-list.. It is all about the money and the profit, not really the product. |
Greyhound.... uhhh yes I can get Rowland right now at a good deal by pushing a few buttons on my phone. I just don’t want to try Rowland because I already owned them. I had their 925s and I don’t care to try anything Rowland. Would you drive the Chevy transverse (meaning the 535s) after you had the Escalade? What sense does that make? Unless Rowland releases the replacement of those 925s, I’m not going to invest in the brand. Why are you being all bitter all of a sudden?
If you want me to try a certain component then order it for me. You have my address. I’ll be glad to give you my honest opinion. At the end of the day, it’s my personal finances/money we are talking about. If I don’t feel like I want to buy something because it’s a bad investment then I simply won’t. AND yes, at this level it’s an investment. A HUGE ONE I might add. You expect me to just pile equipment in my garage that I can’t sell and leave thousands of dollars collecting dust?
My man, I gotta keep this party going, but I can’t pay for everybody’s drink of choice forever. People can also pitch in and bring their own once in a while.
That said, if there’s something you want me to try then you know where I reside my friend.
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WCSS, I am not being bitter, I am just calling it like i see it .
There have been many great used products or recommendations by many people , that you pass on. I am just saying that you pass because you can't turn a profit . From what I have seen , if you can't come out making money ,you won' but it . I am not bitter. i wasn't referring to any particular equipment that Viber6 mentioned . They were several .Yes, you have every right to do what you want. just like i have the right to state my opinion. |
Understood and noted
@grey9hound |
Really enjoy your thread Whitecamaross. I also have noticed how well you handle the static that arises from time to time.
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Hi WCSS, my own staging experience with the Rowland M925 seems quite different from yours, and more in synch from what I have heard reported from other long term M925 users....
my listening room is 19.5 feet wide by 24 feet deep, and has a further extension of 10x10 feet behhind the couch.
My DIe Muzik speakers are about 11 feet apart along the 19.7 ft wall. My ears are perhaps 12 feet in front of the speakers. The M925 amps generate a virtual stage that exceeds comfortably the 19.5 ft span of that side of the room. I listen only to purely acoustic non-amplified/pre-processed instruments and vocalists. Stage usually starts some two feet in front of speaker drivers, and extends behind them with a depth that is very much dependent on the recording.... Perhaps from 12 to well over 100 feet.
Note that I am not using a preamplifier.... I am driving directly the amps with the Rowland Aeris DAC, powered by the Rowland ultra-capacitor-based Power Storage unit (PSU). If you have the opportunity, it might be worth giving the Aeris+PSU combo a try.
With the pair of M535 bridged amps, the overall stage size seems about 80% of what M925 generates.
Granted, I am not perceiving a stage that reaches behind my listening position, but what these amps create is deliciously and distinctly three-dimensional in my system.
Saluti, Guido |
I’ve known WCSS for a couple of years now. Bought 1 amp from him and emailed back and forth many many times. Never once did I get the impression that he was doing this to make a buck. I know for a fact that he’s made some $ and lost some $ but most of the time I think he tries to break even. I think his intention here is to experience, enjoy and go through as much hi-end gear as he can.....I don’t see a problem with that.
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I never said it was wrong or that I had a problem with it .. ..... Absolutely nothing wrong with what he is doing. |
Guys:
if you want FULL DISCLOSURE: yes I make money with some of my gear and I lose money with other gear. Essentially the “profit” is really to offset the losses from other items. I’m not becoming a “baller” or a millionaire by any means. I still have my 9-5 like most of you do. I just can’t throw my money around on items that I either don’t believe in or they don’t strike me at all. I’m sure you all have pitched items that I’d be shocked about if I tried them, but my gut doesn’t let me pull the trigger. I would love to buy each item you all tell me to try but guys I can’t really swing that. Think about it, right now I have the gryphon Diablo 300, momentum integrated, block audios, and the musical fidelity titan on the way. In addition to that I have an anthem p5, Sonus Faber olímpica 2, revel gem 2s, revel voice 2 center and other things I can’t recall. I need to sell some of this stuff before I can keep moving forward. It’s kinda like a store would do: you need to sell off your inventory before you place your next order.
I want for someone of you to let me hear your stuff. I don’t mind paying for shipping both ways and insuring things. I know people here who can vouch for me and my honesty. I won’t ever steal from anyone here. You can send me your stuff and know that it will be in great hands and return back to you in the same shape as it arrived. Lastly, maybe it’s my personality but right now I can’t get myself to order any gear from any business knowing that I’ll return it in 30 days. I just feel like I’m cheating their business and good will. It’s just not in my blood.
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@grey9hound
I guess I misunderstood you when you stated "It is all about the money and the profit, not really the product."
Sorry....my bad |
@ron17
I understood the same thing you did. |
WCSS,
I know you are in Florida, were you close enough to where the 30.7 Maggies weee being demonstrated?
I understand you are all in on the Neoliths, but hoped you had heard the 30.7s for an opinion.
Thanks SO much for sharing your journey. I could never do more than 30k for an entire system, and live vicariosly through your exploits!
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Ihasaguy:
the store sold their demos unfortunately.
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Hi Guido,
interesting findings. I get sound behind me with the block audios and ref10. I’d love to try the 925s again with my Neoliths. I’ll never know the outcome but what I do know is that the block audios are incredible. Nothing really lacking here. Top 2 amps in my opinion and that I have personally owned would be tbe Rowland 925s and the block audio. I can’t for sure say which one is the better amp because I’d need to have both here. |
"I never said it was wrong or that I had a problem with it .. ..... Absolutely nothing wrong with what he is doing."
It is not clear to us casual readers what has given you the idea that anyone cares what you think about WC one way or the other. He is the man.
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@whitecamaross Have you heard about anticables.com, they have very different cable design with almost a naked copper if I understand that correctly. On the other side their power cable have filtration and they don't like power conditioners sometimes.They have 30 trial :) http://anticables.com/reviews |
@jetter , It is not clear to us casual readers what has given you the idea that anyone cares what you think about WC one way or the other . I do not think posting my opinions is any different than you or anyone else who posts in the forum. What makes you so sure anyone cares about yours, or anyone else’s, for that matter. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. 99% of posts in this forum are opinions, including yours. I did not ask you to like mine Nor did I ask anyone what they thought about my opinion....did I ? Plus I never said that WCSS was in the wrong in any way ...Did I? C’Mon now .Let’s put your Big Boy pants on and take off the pullup’s . |
Sorry grey, but WC is the OP, and of one very interesting, very popular thread. A thread with very little of the bickering that has been seen on others here lately. You appear to be willing to say anything to try to share in WCs spotlight. When your contribution doesn't get you enough attention you get downright nasty, throwing in Viber's name a couple of times is icing on the cake. I am not a sensitive person, if you don't see this its on you friend. This is you.
"He can’t make money on those Viber. He has to buy them cheap and sell for a profit or he won’t do it It is really what it is all about for him. If you look at all of the recommendations that he is not interested in , it is obvious. That is why he doesn’t know what tubes he has in his REF10 .It is also why he won’t give us a Demo song-list.. It is all about the money and the profit, not really the product."
and
"WCSS, I am not being bitter, I am just calling it like i see it .
There have been many great used products or recommendations by many people , that you pass on. I am just saying that you pass because you can't turn a profit . From what I have seen , if you can't come out making money ,you won' but it . I am not bitter. i wasn't referring to any particular equipment that Viber6 mentioned . They were several .Yes, you have every right to do what you want. just like i have the right to state my opinion."
WC has politely ignored you, you should learn from this.
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@jetter
"appear to say anything to share WCSS spotlight"
When your contribution doesn’t get you enough attention you get downright nasty,
Come one . really? If you read my posts , you know that is not true. What post are you referring to that my contribution doesn’t get enough attention ? I only threw Vibers name in because he recommended and has in the past recommended, several amps ,all of which WCSS is not interested in , for the reasons I Stated before. Lets stop this bickering. I said what i said , just deal with it . I can’t help it you feel that I hurt your feelings or WCSS. He can defend himself. I do not think he really needs you to defend him. We are all grown ups here ... right . I said WCSS won’t buy anything he cannot make money on. He has every right to do so . End of Story |
Grey, almost end of story, one last comment and then lets put this puppy to bed. No ones feelings have been hurt, including yours, but I think that your having the need to provide negative interpretations of WC's motives where after 400K views and 5K posts no one else has is telling.
Per above you mention "I said WCSS won’t buy anything he cannot make money on." There is no other way to interpret this sentence except that WC's fun adventure is fatally flawed because it is driven by a profit motive, although several persons who have actually dealt with him went to the effort of writing on here that the statement is not true. There is a big difference between wanting to make a profit and not wanting to lose a ton of money on the ultra expensive gear he cycles through. Ok, I am done on this subject. On another note, Happy New Year to you and everyone.
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@jetter
If you perceive it as negative interpretations ... so be it .Happy New Year to all.. |
Hello WCSS, I understand your position about M925 perfectly... As much as I deem M535 to be fantastic, particularly at their ridiculous price point, they are edged by M925s.... Perhaps with the exception of M535 feeling even more open than the big guys.
The other Rowland piece that might be fascinating trying out (would love to try it out myself) is the Daemon superintegrated.... Problem is though that it might be very difficult to find one on the pre-owned market I am very much looking forward to reading your impression of the Musical Fidelity Titan..... I have listened to a large amp from that brand at RMAF a few years ago, but at the time I was a little underwhelmed... I had found the overall presentation to sound dark and hollow.... But who know what was the component or brand responsible for the issues that I prceived.... Amp, preamp, source, speakers, cables? Probably the medium size hall was blameless in this case.... I had heard other systems in the same room that sounded fine.
Saluti, Guido |
What I find interesting is that grey9hound does not seem to recognize that his comments were negative. Perhaps he genuinely did not intend for them to be negative, but they are negative. I’ve seen some folks in the past that have made negative comments, and when they re-read what they wrote and recognized what folks were talking about, they apologized for it. I don’t see that happening here with grey9hound, so it’s best to move on - the logic pointed out to grey9hound is just not coming across...
Dave
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My comments were not intended to be negative , because there is nothing wrong with it. I will say that I have gotten several private messages agreeing with me.
It seems that the logic that I pointed out , is coming across . I’ll leave it at that . |
I would agree that what you pointed out is definitely coming across. The reverse is another story.
Dave
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I believe I have already posted above my way of hand-picking my components.
That said, of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and that’s understandable. The issue I have is coming over to someone else’s party, have drinks, eat Their food and then talk Sh!t afterwards. That’s what I don’t see as cool.
I guess i am just built a little different. Remember, this thread is “my party” whether some of you agree with it or not and I try extremely hard to treat everyone the same. When my replies are out of line and I realize I was wrong, I delete my responses and apologize because I can be wrong too and get caught in the heat of the moment.
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This happens to be a Public Thread WCSS. Surely you know this .You do not own it. Because of this you invited the PUBLIC Because of this it is not your house or your food , even though you may think so. I think you are being a little Almighty.
You started the thread knowing that people will and do express their feelings and opinions.
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Great post WC - I completely agree!
I'm excited that you now have the 3D wraparound sound, and you are now choosing components that will keep you in that arena. Again, these are your choices, and I'm happy to come to your party and share in your findings.
Dave
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Guido,
You bring an EXTREMELY interesting point in regards to other components possibly being the issue often times. I am more of a believer nowdays that most of what is heard out in the field fails miserably because some manufacturers FAIL to system match.
Not long ago there was a friend of mine of who told me that the Neoliths did not sound too good with a full Plinius set up. I did not believe what he said but then when I sold my 15a about a year ago, the buyer stated they sounded too bright and shouty for him and i was like what? I’ve never heard a panel sound that way so I eventually found out he was also using all Plinius components. Anyhow, I loved the sa103 here with my ref10 (not the Plinius preamp) and I now feel more and more that most manufacturers don’t even do their homework. They build a speaker or an amp and they don’t find the perfect partner that showcases their product in the best way possible. I believe that Wilson and Dan are the only 2 that have always understood this and why I always hear great feedback from this combination. I’ve never heard from anyone who has been at a show tell me the Wilson/Dan room sounded crappy. NOT ONE.
I don’t know if it’s that they just don’t care to find the right components or they are THAT stingy that they can’t buy different amps and preamps and see which one they want to use at shows. I mean, I’m sure if Martin Logan called gryphon, Dan, esoteric, pass labs and told them they want to buy a certain amp/preamp to try with a new speaker they are developing, they won’t be paying full retail for any of those components because manufacturers tend to not sell items to each other at full retail especially when this is in regards to what we are talking here. System mismatch is a phenomenon that exists EVEN with manufacturers believe it or not.
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@grey9hound you make a very good point. I can totally understand your sentiments and why you feel the way you feel. This is indeed a public party. I’ve got to develop thicker skin in order to take on what is coming in 2019.
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Hello WCSS, actually at shows manufacturers tend to borrow equipment from one another, or partner for the use of a suite or room.... The more common issue IMO is that they tend to bring in components and cables that are factory fresh.... Result is that things start often to sound reasonably musical only on the last day of the show.... Perhaps this is one of the reasons why I found Musical Fidelity, and in fact Dagostino, not satisfying.
Conversely, for whatever reason, ARC, VTL, Soulution, YG/Mola Mola, Vienna Acoustics, Luxman/Vivid, Wilson, Shunyata, Cardas, Nordost, Rowland, GamuT, and Bel Canto were invariably real treats!
Admittedly, this might have to do more with my idiosyncratic ideal tone concept than for any inherent defects in the many room that did not touch my audiophilic heart. G.
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Gotcha Guido. Man, I just can’t understand WHY would ANY manufacturer do that to themselves. That’s a recipe for failure.
This is something I also learned with my own truck. I decided to put a bigger wheel and so they sold me at wheel/tire package. Anyhow, man the truck rides like I’m off-roading at all times. It vibrates at 70mph and I’ve had the tires balanced more times than I can count. I finally accepted that it’s just the tires they sold me are cheap. This is why car manufacturers select a good tire and often times these tires are 300-500 dollars per tire. Michellin, pirelli, Goodyear, etc are all outstanding tires but of course we all don’t believe that if we buy a cheaper tire such as lexani or nexxen that it will
make any difference because it’s a new tire and identical in size. Boy have I learned the hard way....
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Thezacks++++++
Grey, there is a fine line between expressing one's views and harping... You made your point clearly and unambiguously.... Time to move all back onto the core topic of this fine watering hole of our shared obsession.
Regards, G. |
grey9hound is entitled to his opinion and I don't think he said anything bad. Everyone on this forum is just stating their opinion. I've talked to WC and asked what he thought about a particular amp, because at one time he had the same speakers I have. I wouldn't purchase something because he said it sounds good, but I may go listen to it. I've listened to components that he liked and I didn't think they sound good in my system. I own a component he didn't like and I have no intention of selling it. My room, ears, and music preference is different than WC. In this hobby we need to develop thick skin...no absolutes in Audio, only preferences. |
I was only responding to everyone’s else criticism of me and defending what i said .It is others who can’t move on. I agree... lets forget about it ! Let it go ! |
Yep, preferences are key and I agree with you ricred.
One thing I can say though is that the ref10 might be the most incredible component I’ve owned. I don’t dare to sell it even if i choose an integrated in the meantime, I’d still keep the ref10 in the box. It would take one hell of a preamp for me to replace the ref10.
Block audio and Rowland 925s are the top 2 amps in my book. I would love to do a shootout and see who wins.
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Alright guys,
i added 11 pictures to my virtual system so you all can see the transition that my set up has gone through. You can see pictures of my previous room with wood floor as well. Lastly, someone had asked about the tubes that my ref10 had so I took a picture of it and posted it as well. That specific tube type did not do anything for me in terms of sound.
Anyhow enjoy the pics of some of the gear I’ve reviewed.
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Those new pics are great! I remember reading about all that equipment. Those Neoliths are just incredible, compared to the other speakers. And I see you are pointing them now less toed-in than the initial setting. I think that was really needed to get that 3D Holographic sound you are getting now. You are such a stoker WC.
I, of course have a couple of suggestions..... but I will start with just one at a time.
I have a Microsoft Surface clone that I have on a glass and aluminum end table that fits the laptop right next to me. It is a touchscreen, and I don't have the keyboard connected, So basically, I can sit there and control my Music or Tidal. I bought an Audioquest USB 12ft cord initially, and it was just a little short to me. So I bought one of the better Audioquest USB cords at 5 meters (15ft), and it had more than enough length to reach my equipment. After hearing from a Doctor that does Medical Imaging... he has tested many USB cables at 5 meters, and the better Audioquests are the best and most reliable for getting the proper signal at that length. Many cables he tested, would not work with his Medical equipment reliably. So a proper 5 meter cable will allow you to have a touchscreen tablet like the Surface Pro or a clone of one right next to your listening chair. I found no loss in sound quality with a longer length like this.
I use the Singxer SU-1 USB Bridge, with the 5 meter USB cord from the laptop going into it. It has some serious Femto clocks that clean up the signal and it's output to the DAC is AES/EBU. If you have a DAC that is SOTA, it is probably not going to improve the sound. But with just about any other DAC, the sound improvement is due to the Femto clocks in the Singxer SU-1 providing a better job with USB input than the USB on the DAC itself. The improvement is astonishing, and it allows you to use a Computer instead of one of those units like the
Aurender N100H.
Hope this helps. It must be a pain to get up to change the songs.
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WC,
Regarding soundstage, the objective is to reproduce the soundstage as presented on the recording, whether narrow/shallow or wide/deep, according to the concepts of the musicians, the actual physical dimensions of the stage or recording studio, the processing technique of the recording engineers, etc. As such, if an accurate amp such as Rowland 535 or 925 gives the most revealing information such as tone quality, freq extension, etc, then it also gives the most accurate spatial info presented on the recording. It is NOT ideal to artificially boost the dimensions of the soundstage, even if you want to make the recording studio sound like a football field or ocean. That is just plain euphonic distortion, as I experienced it during my early days of rolled off/bloated tube amps. So if you want accurate soundstage, go for the Rowland and similar accurate amps, but yes, if you want 3D sound that wraps behind your head, look elsewhere, and go for any euphonic electronics. So I think that the ARC Ref 6 is preferable to the Ref 10 for accuracy AND truthful soundstage, according to your descriptions. It also has some tubelike qualities which you like, compared to some sterile SS pieces. And if the ref 6 gets too biting only at loud levels, that tells you that you are playing that music too loud, just as if your favorite singer sounds gorgeous LIVE at the right level, but harsh if too loud by screaming her voice and artificially amped up too much. Don't think that because the Ref 10 is more expensive, then it must be "better", and of course don't think that a ref 11 is the holy grail. I know you are starting to realize that more money doesn't necessarily buy more happiness in equipment.
Also, the soundstage is properly and mostly re-created by the speaker and its interaction with the listening room. The physical design of the Neo creates that large space. Equally important, the style of the recording as I mentioned above. But the job of the electronics is to passively transmit the truth of what is on the recording, while being powerful enough to drive the speaker effortlessly.
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Whitecamaross
What an adventure! Thanks for taking the time to write, post and update...a lot of work you've done that many of us have never gone through...but sure enjoyed reading about!
I have PM'd you and look forward to catching up. |
I think the "MAXELL" company has to retake that picture with whitecamaross in his listening chair. Maybe with his glass of vodka exploding or something similar. |
A picture tells a thousand words . Great to get the visual stimulation . Hope you will continue to add pictures as new gear comes in .
Have you ever tried a passive preamp WC ? If you have not you definitely need to try one . |
Viber
Why the rant about accuracy in soundstage reproduction when it is perfectly fine in your opinion to manipulate the tone with an eq? Were you there in the mixing booth and know the engineer's intent?? |
Those Monitor Audio look impressive ! Bet they can move a lot of air .
WC - Can you rank in order your favorite speakers , Of course the Neoliths are number one ! |
Forget equipment, your next move should be a dedicated room. I know you’ve posted that most people don’t have dedicated rooms, but my experience has been different. Every time I’ve heard an expensive system it was in a well treated dedicated room. The room has as much of an impact on sound as equipment.
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shannere,
Great question. I should have explained better. It is really an objective mathematical/physics discussion. Of course, I wasn't at the recording session. Manipulation of frequency response with EQ will also affect perception of the soundstage. A simple math/physics explanation is that the small wavelengths of HF are absorbed more by intervening air than lower freq. For example, excessive HF boosting will greatly decrease depth in the soundstage with a more forward presentation. Rolling off HF will create a more distant perspective, which can also be described as a heightened sense of depth. In WC's description of the rounded aspect of the ref 10, that is consistent with his observation of the greater depth perceived compared to the more HF oriented precise character of the ref 6. So mathematically, there is a direct correlation of tonal balance with sound staging. I am just saying that if an amp is accurate in tonal parameters to what the engineer encoded on the recording, then that amp will also be accurate in portrayal of the soundstage that is on the recording, whatever it is even if the listener weren't there.
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ricred1,
Agree about the supreme importance of the room. Actually, the speaker can be considered a marriage of the speaker and the room. Each is useless without the other adjusted for compatibility. Many people have large pianos in small rooms, which sound terrible because of the mismatch. What works best is a small piano in a small room, and a large piano in a large concert hall. The same applies to audio reproduction.
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viber6
I am not sure my query has a correct answer. As someone who has done a bit of recording both live and in the studio there are too many variables. The choice of microphones with different pickup patterns changes presentation; the actual placement by angle and distance affects staging and tonality. A Sennheiser doesn't sound like a Neumann: as you know ourself sitting in row A sounds different than row M is either one correct? The panning and editing choices made on the mixing board affect both sound staging and tonality these decisions are made by the engineer or producer in charge oft for a specified desired effect. Again I submit there is not a definitive right or wrong only personal choices; my view of audio listening is similar there are no absolutes. Choose what equipment gives you the most pleasure and to hell with all the judgements, make it more about music and less about equipment. |
Room Is something I will get to hopefully in 2019. I’ve got into this new home and have had to pump money in it so until that’s finally done then The room will
have to wait.
Im glad some of you finally got to see some of the gear I’ve been talking about for the past few years. Hopefully this gave me a sense of more “credibility” in front of your eyes about owning everything I’ve talked about. Everything you see on those pics is equipment I can talk about and give you my honest opinion on. Yes there’s more equipment that I also have pictures of which I will hopefully add at some point. I wanted to just share a little more of me with you all before the end of the year. Cheers !
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