My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

My lines are dedicated lines...coming from the panel box inside the house and the ac system is connected on the panel outside the house. I don't understand this narrative that i have compromised outlets. I have 5 dedicated outlets with 10 gauge wire and aftermarket outlets. 20a, 20a, 30a, 30a, 30a-220v. 

viber6

it isn’t clear that Jay really has problematic AC power. I think Jay already answered your question.

The few details Jay mentioned about his AC power revealed some issues and he has dodged the topic since. It looks like he has an A/C unit or arc welder on his "dedicated lines," as well as some potential code violations. Perhaps it was those problems that led him to try the Stromtank, although addressing the AC issues is probably the less expensive solution. Of course, if he’s in a rental, he may not have any choice.

My Shunyata Denali conditioner yields a big improvement in every sonic parameter, and that’s without any work in my 1963 NYC apartment building. I will make a small $1-2K investment in the Amperetime battery and big Giandel inverter to see whether it is an improvement over my Denali.

That will be an interesting experiment!

The PS Audio Powerplant is not a battery/inverter.  It is a regenerator.  It runs off the wall power......it converts AC to DC just like any amp....then it generates an AC sine wave and amplifies it to 120V........so its basically a big power amp running off the wall.....very different from a battery powered inverter like the $1950  2500 watt big Giandel system (5000 watt inverter, one 200 amp hour battery and a charger) or the $27,000  2500 watt Stromtank.  I imagine Viber is going to buy a 100 amp hour battery....so that is $400 less.  Pretty easy on the wallet....these Giandel/battery things.  If you have your whole system on an inverter....you ALWAYS have the same sound.

Cleeds,

Actually you do have a valid THEORETICAL point that AC power can vary from minute to minute.  For this reason, if I find that component X sounds better than Y, I must repeat the A/B several times to be sure.  On my first A/B, it could be that the power quality was better for X, which gave it an advantage.  That assumes that the power for Y a few minutes later suddenly got poorer.  So I do another A/B 20 min later.  If I still find that X is better than Y, it is more likely that the reason is that X is truly better than Y, rather than if the power quality rapidly kept changing and changing to favor X.  You can do this a few more times, and if X is consistently better than Y, it is much more likely that X is truly better than Y rather than I was consistently fooled by changing power quality.

More importantly, you asked, "What is the benefit of something like a $16K Stromtank battery as compared to a clean, stable, filtered AC line? I suspect the difference in that case is much less than it is for Jay with his problematic AC power."   First, it isn't clear that Jay really has problematic AC power.  I think Jay already answered your question.  He installed good outlets and dedicated lines, tried respected conditioners like Shunyata Denali, Audioquest 7000, but found that the Stromtanks blew these away, including the PS Audio Power Plant 20 flagship battery/inverter.  Even if Jay has problematic AC power, I would think that the Stromtank would show greater benefit than it would show if someone in a rural, sparsely populated area tried all this.  THAT would be interesting to find out, whether reconstruction of a perfect sine wave produces better sonic purity for that someone whose AC power is already low in distortion and noise.

My Shunyata Denali conditioner yields a big improvement in every sonic parameter, and that's without any work in my 1963 NYC apartment building.  I will make a small $1-2K investment in the Amperetime battery and big Giandel inverter to see whether it is an improvement over my Denali.  The next step will be adding the Denali downstream from the Giandel to get the filtering benefit that ricevs claims is the best way to go, at least with the Puritan 156.   I will be honest and report here and on the other thread.

Alright folks 

Give me your selection from the video above. Which presentation did you like best ?

rbach

I give up...you win.

No, we're all winners! Being fortunate enough to enjoy music however you choose makes you a winner, too!

OK, I give up...you win.  Too bad for us.

rbach

These two remarks are what most of us, including the OP feel on this thread. Not argumentative at all.

Pretending you know "what most of us" feel and suggesting "Why don’t you do yourself and us a favor and move on" is argumentative. I understand that you don’t see it that way but the deletion of that post suggests the moderators don’t agree with you.

Why is it that we can't talk audio on this thread without provoking this sort of animosity?

@clearthink

Nothing is ever going to be perfect or even approach perfect when doing YT comparisons of products - there are so many variables . Even hearing the same system in person in a store vs. your own home will most likely be different. Yes, WC is sharing his system as he always has, and yes, he now has some products he is a dealer for. If folks want to purchase his products based upon YT videos, well, that’s their prerogative. I’m guessing though that they will get WC’s take on the equipment comparisons - how he hears it in his room - and then go from there. If I can’t hear the equipment in my room before I purchase, then I will typically look at user reviews, as well as have a conversation with the Dealer.

I just don’t see a reason to pick on the YT videos, knowing already that they will never be perfect and never fully represent what’s actually being heard in the room. I liked viber6’s comment about the consistency of the flaws and still being able to compare YT videos. I also like Jay’s videos that typically follow - the ones that describe what he heard in the room, what he preferred, and why.

Dave

Now these, below, are arguments, and even rise to the level of being argumentative. You'll never see any content from me like that. I'm here to talk about audio.

kren0006

When one hears ad infinitum that nobody really cares for the opinions they are presenting, yet they persist in repeating the same tired objections, it’s akin to an argument.

rbach

Why don't you do yourself and us a favor and move on.

When one hears ad infinitum that nobody really cares for the opinions they are presenting, yet they persist in repeating the same tired objections, it’s akin to an argument.

To be clear, you have every right to post, as does Viber (who often does the same thing), but congrats, you’ve made him seem like the rational defender of the thread, haha (not a rip on Viber - he makes good points occasionally when not pushing his preferences)

kren0006

... cheering for Viber in this stupid argument  ...

For goodness sake, what aspect of this discussion do you find to be an "argument?" Why is it that asking questions, or raising concerns, is characterized as an "argument?"

This is becoming one of the most unusual threads on A'gon - and it's from a dealer who is presumably seeking to generate some sales. Truly strange!

cleeds and clearthink actually have me cheering for Viber in this stupid argument. WTF?  

viber6

... Jay had many power conditioners, but the Stromtank produced another world of benefits ...

Understood! What I find interesting to question is: What is the benefit of something like a $16K Stromtank battery as compared to a clean, stable, filtered AC line? I suspect the difference in that case is much less than it is for Jay with his problematic AC power.  (Let's set aside the fact that I don't think the battery would be sufficient to power even one of my amplifiers.)

Jay doesn't seem inclined to address his AC power issues, so we may never know the answer for sure.

"Relatively" clean, stable AC power?  Jay had many power conditioners, but the Stromtank produced another world of benefits.  There are many cheap alternatives to the Stromtank, as noted on the other thread.  Nobody knows yet which is best.  To learn the truth, the only way is to try for example, a single Amperetime 200 amp-hr battery + charger, and Giandel 2200 or 5000 inverter, for a modest $1-2K.

viber6

Factor X distortion from Jay’s AC power is the same for both videos and therefore cancels out, so the perceived differences are true.

Actually, you don’t know that. Power quality can vary considerably, from time of day, day of week, even minute-to-minute, depending on where you live and what your local grid looks like. Isn't that part of why Jay got into the $16K battery business in the first place? And of course, if that a/c or arc welder that’s on Jay’s audio circuit powers on, all bets are off.

With the Stromtank, his electrical power quality is likely better than yours.

Maybe. I have dedicated, derated lines and power conditioning and that works in my system. I think it’s cool how some are willing to go the battery route, but that’s not for me. I like the simplicity of getting relatively clean, stable AC power. Although I’ve gone to a lot of trouble to do that, it’s been much less expensive than buying a bank of $16K batteries.

In any event, this isn’t about whose system is "best," is it? That seems like a silly debate. Aren’t we all here to have fun?

Cleeds,

You still miss the point.  Factor X distortion from Jay's AC power is the same for both videos and therefore cancels out, so the perceived differences are true.  With the Stromtank, his electrical power quality is likely better than yours.

Can you hear?

viber6

Jay already has dedicated lines.  

It isn't clear what Jay's AC power looks like, although the last time the topic arose it looked like there was a welder or a/c unit on one of his "dedicated" audio lines. It's a topic Jay tends to prefer to avoid, hence the threat that he'll take "corrective action" if anyone questions him.

Jay already has dedicated lines.  Maybe he didn't go all out and get an electrician to tap into the local power station, but he found that the Stromtank battery/inverter has much greater benefits than any other ancillary component.  Those on the other thread (accessible from near the top of page 406 of this thread) know this from their other battery/inverters.  

The technical people think they can explain sound differences solely from technical analysis.  But they have canyon sinkhole sized blind spots about which measurements and factors correlate with which sonic criteria.  They should re-read my last post that whatever factor X distortion is in YouTube or one's electrical system, that factor X is the same for both power cord videos, so the perceived differences are quite obvious which everyone has noted.

jays_audio_lab

I already told you - we don't see eye to eye.

Yup, though you've never explained yourself, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

Don't address me.

This is as open forum. If you have a complaint about me, take your complaint to the moderators. I

I already told you - we don't see eye to eye. Don't address me. Thanks. 

jays_audio_lab

 

It’s so clear to me that most folks on here aren’t interested in hearing from the "gurus" or "crusaders" who preach HARD ...

I don’t see anyone "preaching" here. What are the comments that you think "most folks" find objectionable? Why not bring your complaint to the moderators rather than lecture us?

Jay, you’re a dealer selling a $16K battery. You might want to consider looking at how some of the other dealers on A’gon conduct themselves, because that’s the kind of treatment I think "most folks" who are audiophiles expect. I don't think your silly claim that you're being "crucified" here is a sound business plan.

It’s so clear to me that most folks on here aren’t interested in hearing from the "gurus" or "crusaders" who preach HARD on here yet they don’t even have a system listed on their profile. That’s like me going into a Mercedes-Benz dealership and criticize the prices of these vehicles yet little do they know that i took the bus to get to the dealer...

Some people want to eat caviar but pay beef jerky prices. Some others want to drive a Mercedes Benz S class but want to pay Hyundai prices. If they can’t afford the caviar or Mercedes S class, they have crucify those who have the means to buy either as well as lecture the masses how stupid it is to pay so much money for a car or caviar.

Maybe i should join a Ferrari forum and tell them that i know of  a faster car for less money and save them from paying expensive vehicle maintenance?

Hmmm 🤔 i wonder how that would work out for me once they find out i drive a Ford...

It is strange, unusual, and odd that some here can't have "fun" if others reveal actual data, facts, and simple, basic, elemental  deficiencies in something as basic as a music reproduction system's electrical foundation. Pointing out these irregularities is not "complaining" but just a sign of living in the real world where facts, science, and the human brain can work together to yield improved performance,  outcome, and results.

It should also be mentioned given your objections that the poster here is selling, promoting, and recommending battery power systems that cost tens of thousands of US dollars EACH of course that is fine and but for many it is wiser, more "expedient" and possible even safer to call an electrician first.

You can have fun with a broken toy but I prefer a fully functioning "toy."

clearthink,

You make valid points about technical problems in these videos. However, the differences I heard were consistent among the several songs, and quite easy to hear, even with all the flaws you mention. But the flaws are consistent, and a relative constant, so they cancel out, making it very possible to form reliable conclusions. I used two lousy computers but came to the same conclusion that I preferred presentation 2, and I am quite confident that it is the Transparent. If Jay says it is not the Transparent, I made an arbitrary error, no big deal.

I have heard excellent violinists and mediocre violinists play the same crummy factory violin as well as a great sounding violin. No matter which violin, the big differences in the sound are 99% due to the violinist rather than the violin. The crummy violin is like YouTube, which still lets us hear the big differences between these power cords.

@thezaks 

X2

So good Dave....thanks

Someone is always going to complain. It's human nature. 

good analogy @zaks

@clearthink

I walked into the basketball gym and two guys were playing 1:1. Both are great players and many of us wondered who would win. Lots of us saw different things they were doing and it was fun to talk about it. At the end, everyone had a fun time with it.

One guy though (let’s name him Dude) pointed out that the rim might be slightly bent downward, the floor wasn’t perfectly clean, the humidity level was higher which caused the players to sweat more, and he pointed out some other problems with the 1:1 game.

Everyone then realized it was stupid of them to believe that this was all for fun, and Dude felt good that everyone went home disappointed.

:-)

Oh, sorry, actually, what happened was that everyone had a great time and didn’t really care what Dude said.

Thanks for the fun WC!

Dave

It is easy to see the various, multiple, compound problems with these "evaluative" videos continues without attention, disruption, or resolution. The biggest issue plaguing this undertaking and effort are the underlying house voltage delivery inadequacies and uncorrected deficiencies that have been previously revealed, explained, and detailed. As I previously mentioned parts of the US are known for "third-world" quality utility delivery systems but that should not hinder, dissuade, or prevent Jay from attempting their proper correction.

What is particularly odd about the "evaluative" video is that uses power cords as the variable yet power is the primary, underlying, over riding defficiency in this music reproduction system so you are hearing distortions, anomalies, and irregularities that are the result and consequence of the power problems plus all the issues previously defined with the You Tube production itself which includes spurious unexplained signals

My findings are the same as those of skebet.  The tonal balance of #2 shows more upper midrange and HF content.  I understand the synergy advocates who might prefer #1.  This is because the inherent tonal balance of the S7 speaker favors the  brilliant tweeter.  Actually, I believe the tweeter is accurate, but the rest of the drivers don't quite keep up with the tweeter's speed and resolution.  Despite this, I like the S7 as the best speaker I have heard from Jay's videos.  I enjoy the brilliant aspects of the S7 with the brilliant/revealing Boulder electronics, AND #2 power cord.  But the synergy camp will prefer toning down the brilliance of the rest of the system with #1 power cord.  

My guess is #2 is Transparent, #1 is Shunyata.  Except for my Shunyata Denali which is brilliant and detailed, I didn't like the flagship Shunyata Sigma power cord and preferred the more brilliant Shunyata Venom HC which is just high quality 9 gauge.  Whatever filter networks are in the Sigma, they produce a more laid back softer sound.

Thank you, and oops by me: I see the song descriptions now at the bottom of the video info.

@skebet and all who do not know about this

Download the "Shazam" app on your phone. While playing the song from Jays video , (of course you cant be using your phone as your player or source of the music ) open the app and click the icon and Shazam... It tells you the name of the song and Artist.

@jays_audio_lab This latest video blew a friend and I away with how non-subtle the difference in presentation is between the two cords (She prefers the warmth and resonance of #1; I prefer the clarity and resolution of #2.)

Anyway, sorry if this is a FAQ and I understand why you don't post this in the YouTube description, but would you mind sharing here the name and artist for those four tracks?

Much obliged, and keep up the fantastic content!  

@grey9hound 

Thanks man !

Well,

That was awfully sweet of you, Daddy, to stop what you were doing to help her find her Eye Color. I think that is what she said.

Thats a dedicated Daddy ! Especially when you are your sick .

I am not sure but, you kind of sound like you might be.

I commend you  !!

And we don't have transparent opus speaker cables inserted...then this begs the question: do we need the $40,000 cables in the system when the powercords are doing an exceptional job at creating tons of resolution and clarity? I am torn here and may need to go back and forth but if I'm looking to save some money I'd say stick to a quality speaker cable and use opus powercords. 

In my members only section of my website, i will go more in depth as to what the opus speaker cables are doing and how the Boulder 3060 interacts with them. 

I am working on the 3010 is 2110 raw footage as well and my raw uncut opinion on which preamp to get and why. 

The website is almost there guys. It's SO MUCH WORK! 

Stay tuned !

I like the extra detail and clarity on this last video. 

Totally Jay. One of my dogs is my constant companion when I listen. She tries to push herself into the sweet spot.

Nah... It could be said that most of us listen alone or with the cat and dog because for the most part women don't have any interest in discovering how the sound changes with footers or cables lol. 

Agree about the cat.  I think Jay's message with the other items is that certain types of women go for guys with money.  But cats and dogs love you unconditionally, on a higher plane.

w all due respect on the cartoon topic

best to quit while ahead. 

cat can be an amazing companion

can we have a dog if we add a sub? or power conditioner?