So I’m determined to put together my first serious analog system, having subsisted on entry-level NAD TT, integrated and phono amp for over 10 years. My tastes are very eclectic, but I’ve put together a nice jazz collection and that’s what’s really crying out. I’m looking at a budget of about $8K over the next 12-18 months. Yeah, that’s the trick: This ain’t gonna happen over night. But I’m willing to be patient with imbalances in my system as long as I’m headed in the right direction. And I’d rather go the route of buying the gear I really want for the long term rather than stop gaps and labor intensive upgrade paths etc. My life just doesn’t have room for that.
N.B.: Looking to stay SS, likely integrated+phono preamp configuration. Really just talking about the table, cart, and amplification ... speakers and ICs are OK for now.
Questions: 1) How would you divvy up the dough? 2) In what order would you buy the components? 3) Top 3 recommendations within each component category? 4) Other crucial considerations?
Hi, I’m a jazz aficionado as well. I attend live jazz performances often and have accumulated a large collection of jazz recordings over the years. Why the aversion to tube electronics? Good quality tubes reveal the beauty and scope of this wonderful idiom.
You should mention your speakers as this will help to focus amplifier recommendations from others. Pass Labs and Gamut are 2 solid state brands that I think would be good for your stated goal. If you don’t need high power or current I would suggest First Watt amplifiers as a possibility. You may want to consider an all in one box product such as Lyngdorf. Good luck Charles
Thanks, Charles. Epos M5s on the speakers. I'll get around to upgrading those but they're nice enough for now. Might just stick with that line or look at KEFs based on a jazz-loving friend's recommendation.
Honestly, the tube scene scares me. I feel like I can't afford to worry about yet one more variable ... I have a hard enough time reigning in my OCD features. But I'm sure you or someone could talk me out of that. ;-)
Yes that makes sense, get it right/very good initially and then be happy long term. I wouldn’t try to talk you into tubes if you’re uncomfortable with them. It is just that we have similar taste in music and this genre just comes alive and breathes with tubes doing what they do with instruments and vocals. Listening to Eric Reed and some Carmen McRae tonight, beautiful! Early Blue Note?!"oh yes, Lee Morgan, Freddie Hubbard, Dexter Gordon, I'm with you 😊 Charles
My advice would be to hold it until you are ready to upgrade your speakers and probably cables too. You want, I think, a competely new system at a totally different level. $8k is pretty good amount for a system including speakers if you buy mostly or exclusively used and are patient. I saw decent speakers here for about $1.5k-$2k used, Vienna is an example. I heard a few models, not my dream speakers but I could easily live with them for a long time. I strongly prefer floorstanding speakers that go down confidently to at least 35hz. Some like Harbeth and Spendor, I am ambivalent to them. Pass is a good general recommendation, anyway. Nottingham and VPI are sure no-nonsense choices for turntables. Pass or Sutherland phonos are good.
So let me ask this: Why not enjoy the benefits of incremental system upgrade rather than waiting? I mean, I'm sure flipping the switch on a whole new system would be really satisfying, but it's also pushing it down the road a couple of years rather than starting to piece something together now and hearing some improvements sooner. Just curious how folks weigh those different approaches ...
You might have to change electronics when you change speakers. Besides, speakers are half the system, at least. And you don’t appear to want gradual upgrades, you want to jump, and this is generally my approach too. But you won’t have to upgrade table/arm/cartridge with new speakers. As for the phono, there are some compatibility issues with preamps. So, if you insist on your approach, I suggest you get the source right first, with decent but not outstanding phono and integrated. Cables and power cords are important too, especially power cord on the integrated - integrated is two components or three if there is onboard phono stage. But..Charles is right about tubes, of course. I don’t have tube electronics for now only because I am hard to please and that means serious expenses. I used to listen a lot of classical jazz.
This doesn't mean that speakers should cost half the system, it depends. I have about $3k in current dollars speakers and $7k table/arm/cartridge/phono. I like my speakers and brought just about everything out of them, I guess. Next step would be big speakers upgrade, $5k used speakers, at least.
As a fellow jazz fan, I second Charles' recommendation about tube gear. In my opinion, tubes, vinyl and jazz just go together like a magic potion. They bring out the best in each other. That said the right solid state gear can make some special music too. My recommendation is to find a friendly dealer who can steer you in the direction of a satisfying long term setup. I would concentrate first on the vinyl playback setup since the source quality is so important. The amplifier and speaker choices are interrelated so I would make those decisions at the same time even if you have to delay the actual purchase of replacement speakers to a later date.
Jazztherapist, Inna offers some good suggestions. The speakers are important "but" so is every other part of the audio signal chain, thus the weakest link (in the chain) analogy applies. In my opinion the Epos M5 are not the weak link in your system. I’d put available resources toward better turntable, Phono stage and integrated amplifier.
In you stated budget range you can research and find a high quality solid state integrated (especially if you buy used). Stereophile found the Epos M5 to have a good balance of detail and an organic character (that’s good). J.A. said measurements were impressive for such a modest priced speaker, surely a compliment.
So based on your financial realities and long term plans I’d keep the Epos (for now) and focus on improving your analog source and amplifier quality. The Epos seems good enough to be able to reflect and exploit upstream upgrades. Charles
1. Don’t rule out tubes. You would be amazed at how good a tube amp can bring out subtlety, texture, and nuance. No disrespect to SS. 2. Buy quality that will last the years. In my main system, I have had the tube power amp (Prima Luna PL5) for 12 years, the preamp/ cd player for 13 years (Musical Fidelity CD Pre 24), the SACD player for 16 years (SONY SCD 555ES), and the speakers (Opera Platea) for 8 years.
Now that I have turned 60, I start wondering when I will need to pull the trigger on the last, great rig.
Once you upgrade the NAD, you will upgrade the EPOS eventually. In the interim, you can hear what an amp a few notches above the NAD can do with the EPOS. (Note: I owned the NAD 320 until I upgraded to tubes).
I would suggest the following top of the line Prima Luna tube integrated as the anchor of your new system. It should last 20 years, if not longer. It is certainly powerful enough for most speakers. PL makes tube ownership easy with adaptive bias. PL probably offers a phono preamp board for this amp.
Thanks, folks, this is very helpful so far. I live in the South Bay, so I'll see about brick-and-mortar shops (open to suggestions if anyone is in the SF area).
I'm open to tube gear if I'm not going to get the best out of my jazz collection without it. I'm just not sure what I should be looking at if I go down that road.
I would suggest the following top of the line Prima Luna tube integrated as the anchor of your new system. It should last 20 years, if not longer. It is certainly powerful enough for most speakers. PL makes tube ownership easy with adaptive bias. PL probably offers a phono preamp board for this amp.
I attended this shootout. I also own this amp and phonostage.
With your speakers and decent inexpensive cable, you will have a great sounding system to listen to while you're figuring where to put your money on nice speakers.
for similar music I am using Belles Soloist 1 Integrated, Odyssey Khartago Extreme Amp, Salk SongTowers, Dynaudio Focus 220 mkll, Musical Surrounding Phenomena Phono...works well for me, and well within your budget...unfamiliar with turntables in your price range...
I listen to most types of music but jazz is primary for me.
Good audio systems are complex because of the interrelationships between so many of the individual components. The cartridge should be matched with the tonearm (mass and resonance), the phono stage (whether separate or integrated) with the cartridge, the preamp or line stage with the amp (both for gain and impedance match), the amp with the speakers (power, impedance curve, damping, sonics), and the speakers with your room (placement and size considerations, radiation pattern) and sonic tastes. Underlying all that is the cost for each and how to allocate funds, plus wiring, room treatments, power line quality, and software maintenance (with LPs some type of record cleaning device seems essential).
With all that, I agree with inna, one should start by choosing speakers. Two reasons for that. One, they will likely have the greatest impact on your resulting sonic pleasure. And #2 if you start at the other end of the system chain you can paint yourself into a corner (hardly ever good for speaker placement ;^) ) with limited speaker choices.
For a very general guideline with a total $8K budget I would look at speakers between $2 and 3K. But will you look only at new or can used be considered as well? Just keep in mind you could find something costing less than $2K so don't feel locked in to a specific price point.
I don't encourage the use of tube components for the purpose of "euphonic sound". My rationale is based on their capability to provide natural tone and timbre as well as the ability to connect emotionally the expression and beauty of the music. No doubt that we all have our own perspectives. Charles
I live in SF and I think it would be worth your time to visit this brick & mortar http://www.toneofmusic.com in Noe Valley.
Just tell the owner, Tim, exactly what you said here. He is a good resource for matching components and quality and value. He has a listening room with a nice selection of Blue Note records.
Its a small one man operation so you should confirm he will be open before taking the drive. It would be well worth your while.
So let me nuance this a bit further. Let's say I hold off on the big purchases and throw down the $8K all at once in another 18-24 months. Seems like working with one dealer who can set me up, and do it synergistically, might make more sense. What would be a pleasing cartridge upgrade to my Shure M97xe to keep me enthusiastic? You know, something modest ($200-$400).
I have been using this cartridge for the past few months and I am absolutely loving it. A level of performance above the Ortofon Blue (which is very good).
Hi Jazz, I believe that referral to Tone Of Music Audio is a very good idea. They certainly carriy a high quality selection of tube and solid state electronics. If they are good dealers you should have an opportunity to hear and be exposed to some terrific sounding products. . It may take some time and patience but would be worth it in the long term. Let your ears acclimate to these high quality audio products. You'll begin to identify what type of sound draws you more into the music. Charles
I've owned an M97xE and Ortofon OM10. I gave those to my stepson. I own an Audio Technica AT-MONO3/LP HOMC cartridge for playing my mono LPs.
I still own a Denon DL160, a Shelter 201, and an Audio Technica AT150MLX which--through a stylus swap--is now an AT150Sa, which has an aluminum pipe cantilever and nude Shibata stylus instead of the MLX's boron cantilever and MicroLine stylus.
I really liked the MLX, but I like the AT150Sa that much better. It has a better tracking top end and the tonal balance and timbre are more natural and less "hi-fi." It totally leaves the Shure M97xE, Denon DL160, and Shelter 201 in the dust--more neutral, better tracking, smoother presentation yet more detailed, quicker, and especially more involving and musically satisfying.
Audio Technica AT150SA has been discontinued but LpGear still has the AT150SA on closeout for $271.98. The AT150MLX used to be a $549 cartridge, so this is an exceptional value.
Furthermore, if you want newer and better, Audio Technica upgraded the AT150 cartridge design to the new VM series. The cartridge itself has been reworked with a new, more efficient coil design and a center shield plate to increase L-R separation. One model is the VM760SLC with special line contact stylus for $649. The other is the VM750SA with Shibata for $349.
At any rate, at $271.98, the AT150SA is stupid good for the money, and the Shibata stylus lasts longer than most.
I would try Nagaoka cartridge if it is compatible with your tonearm, get it at lpgear.com, prices are $110-$750, I think.
Speaking of compatibility, the first cartridge on my turntable was a Shure M97xE. I never had to make any adjustments in effective mass when I switched to the AT150MLX or AT150Sa. Their cartridge weights and dynamic compliance ratings were in the same range as the Shure M97xE.
Jazz is my fave also, especially piano trios (my beatnik phase kicked in about a decade ago…it's never too late). Any great system should support whatever style of music you put through it, and mine now has an SEP tube amp of 12 watts per side, and 250 watts of bass potential from two REL subs. This seems to work somehow…who knew? Old Monk LPs, orchestral stuff, or modern Vijay Iyer (this dude can paste you to the wall…in a good way)…the rig should embrace either one and if it can't there's something wrong with it. I think great tube amps can hit a level of musicality and clarity at a lower price point than comparable SS amps might…I used a Jolida 502p for years and thought it sounded fabulous at around 1200 bucks, and the SEP I now use from amp guru Dennis Had lists for maybe 1500 and sounds like I'll own it forever, and it only has 4 tubes to worry about. I've actually compared it (in my home rig) to a recent vintage Pass "First Watt" amp and thought it sounded better at much less money, although if I was going to use an SS amp again a Pass would be on my short list. Tubes.
a tube pre with a SS amp will be fine and give you the euphonic sound people are urging that’s what I use with my Maggie 3.7i’s - and they Maggies are xlnt for jazz 1.7s would fit your budget
This describes my own electronics evolution since getting my Maggie 1.7s in Nov. 2013.
I have matching handwired MAGI PTP phono and line stages. The line stage feeds a 1980s Perreaux PMF1150B MOSFET amp. The amp is rated at 100 wpc into 8 ohms, and given its heft, I suspect it’s feeding the Maggies 200 watts into their 4-ohm largely resistive load. It’s a captivating match.
I think there’s more to tube-driven preamps than euphonics. I hear largely the same tonal balance and timbres as with good solid state, but the tubes do low level detail, the sense of the room size and the bloom and decay of notes, not just in the recording venue, but within the instruments themselves.
Tubes driving MOSFET SS can be a really good match because MOSFETS lend themselves to the same sort of transconductance architecture as is found in tube amps. But MOSFETs bring high current and a high comfort level to low-impedance speakers.
BTW, I've been a big jazz nut since I was 11. I have a pretty sizeable jazz LP collection, and attendance to enough live performances to have a sense of what things should sound like. I've seen Dizzy Gillespie, Buddy Rich (5 times), Stan Kenton, Dave Pike, Gary Burton (with Pat Metheny on guitar), Stanley Turrentine, Don Ellis, Maynard Ferguson, Stan Kenton, Count Basie, Louie Bellson, Quincy Jones with Melba Moore and Sarah Vaughan, the L.A. Four (Shelley Manne, Ray Brown, Laurinda Almeida and Bud Shank), Mose Allison, and Cab Calloway and his big band.
I find the new *.7 series of Maggies to be stupendous for just about anything, but they really shine on jazz. The large radiating surface of Maggie panels is a lot closer to the size of a piano soundboard than conventional speakers. Pianos sound stunningly real. But then, so do horns, flutes, sax, vibraphone, acoustic bass, and brass.
If you consider upgrading your speakers (and with an $8K budget you should), I wouldn't spend a dime without auditioning a pair of Magnepan 1.7i s. And make sure the dealer knows how to show them at their best. My sales rep actually got out a tape measure to make sure he had the 1.7s properly placed and angled.
Jazz therapist, I wrote earlier that I thought good quality tube components would serve you very well but I’d avoid pushing the idea if you are not interested. Wolf made me reconsider that statement 😊😊. He describes the excellence of low power tube amplifiers with compatible easy to drive speakers and I agree.
This has been my preference as well the past 8 years and there’s no going back. All genres of music can be enjoyed and most certainly jazz. That Dealer you were referred to carries the Line Magnetic brand. I’d try to hear a few of their SET and lower to moderate power push pull tube amplifiers with appropriate speakers (playing music you know and enjoy) and see what you think. Charles
Speaking of tube preamp and amp connected to Maggies, The Absolute Sound reviewed the Rogue Cronus Magnum powering a pair of (then) brand new Magnepan 1.7s. The review was a total rave and the Cronus and Mag 1.7s were a great match.
Since that review, this integrated amp is now the Rogue Cronus Magnum II with more power and several other improvements including an additional 6dB of gain in the phono section.
I spent several hours listening to 3.7i and 1.7 (no i) driven by separate Rouge tube gear. I forget which models but the amp was $4,000.
They both sounded great (I brought my own test tracks - Redbook CD).
BTW, I use euphonic to just mean good SQ - including the above remarks on inner detail, etc.
I also think a good SS amp will do a fine job. Something by John Curl maybe, unless you want to hunt down some Brystons on the used market.
Maggies like a lot of current delivery (not "Power" per se) but are an easy load to drive as they are a nearly pure resistive load - at 4 ohms.
that same resistive load means you can use just about any speaker cable w/out a change in the sound
you will want to spend many hours moving them around to the best spot; absorption & diffusion can help too (and yes I am one of the people harping on that - it is much more important than the commonly discussed tweeks, cables, little boxes full of fiber, etc.)
for the record, I use a tube pre- (Audio Research LS25 Mk II, and formerly a Sonic Frontiers Line One) with a Bob Carver Sunfire amp. I may swap to a Benchmark or a newer Class D design, but am headed for a new DAC first.
@jazztherapist Lot of great suggestions here, but as I think more about your situation it strikes me that you're kind of flying blind (listening blind?) on this project. You say that you'd like to move up to a better/more resolving system, but it's also pretty clear that you haven't heard many good systems lately. Brick and mortar is not the way to check out a lot of high end options.
Consider attending an audio convention so that you can actually hear some of what's actually available these days at various prices. Attending AXPONA or RMAF is a fairly low cost way of educating yourself --- certainly it is cheaper than buying an expensive component or two, only to find out that they're not really what you wanted.
Goheelz, I can’t think of a more efficient method to hear multiple audio products and developing a feel for what is available and some idea of how they sound. I've attended AXPONA, RMAF and multiple CES and these experiences were very worthwhile.
Show conditions can had some shortcomings but I am unaware of a more viable way to gain exposure to a wide array of equipment. Some rooms will have exceptional set ups and sound very impressive. Broad exposure to what’s out there is advantageous. Charles
The Bay area is one of the best places to be able to actually listen to potential purchases, and if you're willing to drive up to Portland, you can expand that experience. I love jazz with the right headphones, with the right speakers, with the right amp, but once one thing isn't doing it, I do not love jazz. I'm a digital source guy mostly and can't comment on your source, but I'd spend some time with speakers, and if a shop agrees - make an appointment and bring your own amp in!
It might even be worthwhile to, wherever appropriate, make a post about your intentions and see if locals would be willing to invite you over to share their systems. We all know we'd love to have someone care about the little details.
Thanks, willsw. I'm still a somewhat new transplant from Chicago and I have no idea how to go about finding audiophile and jazz kin. I'd love to find some folks willing to show off their gear. I'd be happy to bring some vinyl.
I would echo considering a tube preamp but, then again, I have a lot of tubes in my system (phono stage, preamp, and monoblocks).
The problem with used is that until you have listened to a LOT of different brands, you are really buying stuff blind (or deaf...). Reading other people's opinions is of limited use as we all 'hear' (i.e. interpret music) differently.
Building a synergistic system (i.e. where all the components compliment one another) is an art.
Finding kindred spirits can be done by posting notices on forums such as this one, or reaching out to any local jazz societies.
Good luck in your journey. And remember - it's all about the music, not the gear.
I'd like to support Charles' argument: take some time first to find what approach works for you. It could be low-powered tubes and sensitive speakers. It could be big class A solid state amps driving panels. It could be classic Brit-fi. Go to some shows. Visit some bricks and mortar dealers. A good one will listen to you and lay out some options at various price points, including for the all-at-once vs one-"lifetime"-component-at-a-time-over-several-years strategies.
My my own example: I heard a demonstration by Jeffrey Catalano of High Water Sound (dealer in NYC) at a show a few years back and couldn't forget the experience. Here at last was my sound. But way over my budget. I continued to try other components, but without feeling I was making any progress. Eventually I decided to give Jeffrey a call and just ask him: I can't afford that system, but how close can I get with a much smaller budget? I'm so glad I made that call -- we worked out a plan for system that I love, I've bought three components from him so far, and I'm quite sure I will end up saving a lot of money over the long run.
In a word, "immersive", in the same way live music is. Okay, you say, what the heck does that mean? I think two things in particular: first, the system is very fast, with excellent micro dynamics, and second, it has superb timbral accuracy. The first seems to be the province of simple, low-powered amplifiers and very sensitive speakers -- I tend to find systems with big amps and low sensitivity sound kinda constipated, whereas live music comes to you immediately. The second aspect usually -- but not always -- comes from analog sources and tube amps.
The system Jeffrey was demonstrating that day had type 45 tube monoblocs pumping a mighty 1.5 watts into 96db sensitive speakers. I think he would say that it was one of his faster and more open sounding systems (compared with the denser sound from, say, a type 845 tube amp).
BTW, I don't feel a need to argue that my (eventual) system or even that show system is "the best". Neither would be the first choice for thrash metal fans, I'm guessing. A friend of mine whose taste runs to late romantic period big orchestral works plays only digital and loves his big Revels. That's cool; I just have different priorities.
HWS does sell some very esoteric gear, to be sure. But he can start you with a $1500 tube integrated and some $2K Neat speakers that will make great music together.
Hi pingvin, Thanks for posting your very insightful listening impressions. Jeff Catàlano (High Water Sound) yes, I completely understand your experience with him. I’ve heard his systems on 5 different occasions across a variety of audio shows over the years. He consistently has some of the finest sound you’ll hear without fail.
His method is to pair lower power tube amplifiers and high sensitivity easy to drive speakers and it is indeed a wining formula for him. In my experience he used Tron SET amplifiers (either 300b or 211 tubes) driving Cessaro speakers or Horning speakers. Regardless of the combination chosen the result is exceptionally "natural " very realistic sound quality, the music just flows and fills the room. One year at CES he used an Electra Fidelity SET driving the Horning Eufrodite with excellent results.
He has used analog records exclusively in my experience and "all" genres of music sound very good in his systems. He is definitely a fan of jazz and has a superb collection to choose from.
Pingvin I agree with you, he does present a sound that differs from the numerous rooms using high power solid state amplifiers. I find his sound to be more open, flowing and emotionally very involving. There’s more the sense of musicians are in the room or you in the recording venue, very impressive!
It’s all a matter of personal taste of course but his systems do stand out at the audio shows year after year. Pingvin I’m convinced that you have a fabulous audio system via Jeff’s components and as important, his guidance. Charles
Jump on this. Great price for an amazing TT. I recently updated my two channel equipment with jazz as my primary focus. I bought the Prime retail with a Quintet Black cart. I had a Project Carbon with Sumiko Blue Point No 2 and while that TT and cart helped me love vinyl again the Prime brought things to a new level.
I agree with the other comments about tubes. I went SS for my amp and tubes with my pre. I'd recommend the Atma-Sphere MP-3. If you change two things to completely improve your sound the Prime and MP-3 would do that for you. USA Tube Audio is having a sale on the MP-3 now.
Hello there....I too am a Jazz fan, collecting LPs for over 40 years, and another guy who recommends tubes but there are some great SS UK integrated amps that may do it for you. This dealer is in Campbell and really knows his stuff and stocks a great inventory of new and used LPs. He can help you put together a great system. Go with gear that give you a deeper connection to the music. The PL gear sounds fantastic and is reliable, real music makers that are mostly set and forget. The only thing you would need to watch is replacing the power tubes every 1/1/2 to 2 years depending on how many hours a week your listen.
Thanks very much for that tip, Chris! It so happens I have a consultation group I'll be attending every Thursday up in Campbell so that's totally doable.
As a fellow jazz lover, I'm curious about the system you've put together for yourself.
fellow jazz lover but not exclusively a jazz person, like you I have very eclectic tastes.
Never heard Epos but they are always mentioned as a very good match with Exposure electronics. The 2010s model got pretty great reviews and user feedback from most everyone. Probably could grab one for less than 1000 bucks.
I have a VPI Prime/ Musical Surrounding Phenomena Phono/Soundsmith Aida. I love my system.
I would go reasonable on Electronics like the exposure knowing that later a speaker upgrade might necessitate a amplification upgrade.
I would buy a really good TT/Phono and Cart that can grow with the system in the future. That is what I would do with the money. Plus living in SF you should be able to hear some pretty amazing gear before choosing. Take your time and listen before you leap.
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