The F110 does a fantastic job of EQing the room from the listening space. << sigh >> yeah. I sigh because I love the results of the JL auto-calibration/correction system, but the price premium is a big step up. Still, much cheaper than switching to floor-standing speakers which won’t integrate with the room as well. I recommend JL Audio subs a lot, but with fear about the cost, but there’s a reason for it. If you are either very experienced with room measurements or have another way to achieve room calibration like through an ARC equipped miniDSP or Anthem pre/integrated you can achieve very similar results with far less expensive subs from Hsu or SVS. |
You are welcome, @diamonddupree
Yeah, you probably cut the power the amps make, and speakers try to play, by 70%. It is going to be very very hard for you to switch to a floor standing speaker now. :)
Best,
E
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@erik_squires yes, definitely. I don’t hear the amp straining at higher decibels anymore. I think a combination of the 7” drivers not having to go so low and the extra headroom from the amp not having to drive as low cleaned up the distortion. Very happy with the results. Thanks for all your recommendations. Definitely helped a lot! |
Very happy with the Rel S/510. Mainly listen to music. I have two of them. IMO the JL is better for Cinema. |
Hey @diamonddupree
How do you feel about the dynamic range of your system now that the high pass filter is in? Have your worries been addressed?
Erik
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We were selling jl for years we really would not recomend the brand huge issues with reliability
Performance was good the paradigm subs wew bettet
Now we are importing a line of fantastic british sube mj acoustics
These are extremely musical subs with dual crossovers allowing for similtanous usaage for both theater and music
Dave and troy
Audiointellect nj
Us importer mj acoustics
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Strongly suggest Vandersteen Model 3 Subs if you want the most musical result. I did that with my Apogee Scintillas, One Ohm and its a marvelous solution. Got his best High Pass Crossover. Talk to John Rutan an Audio Connection, he knows his stuff, and is a very knowledgeable Vandersteen dealer. |
Hi Northman, the F110s with the CR 1 crossover will be phenomenal. There are several issues you should be aware of.
As Duke noted, the bass response will vary throughout the room quite dramatically. The easy but expensive way to deal with this is to use 4 subs, otherwise you have to be careful how you set the room up. To start position all your speakers equidistant from the listening position. The best is to put the subs perhaps 3 feet apart against the wall in the center flanked buy the main speakers all on the radius of a circle with the center at the listening position. Hopefully, this will automatically phase the speakers.
Now, the big problem is that if the listening position is at a "Null" point in the room DARO is going to try to correct this. If the null is bad enough DARO will clip the subwoofer amps. The way to deal with this is to move the listening position forwards or backwards to a point in the room where the bass is loudest. It may only take a couple of feet to do this! The way you tell is play a 50 Hz test tone and walk back and forth along the center radius. You will hear very obvious changes in the loudness of the tone. Mark the floor where it is loudest. If you do not trust your ears you can use a sound pressure meter. Given the circumstances of your room you may not be able to place the listening position at the peak but at least you can avoid the null taking some of the stress off the subs. After this run Daro. With the subs in the center do not be afraid of running the crossover up as high as 125 Hz. If you are using mini monitors like LS3 5As you drop the distortion of the little woofer quite dramatically.
Please tell us how you make out!! |
Go with the F110, one will be fine. I have a single F110 in a smallish listening room and it's more than enough bass. I know you said you wanted to set aside DARO but let me tell you that the room correction in the F110 is one of the primary reasons why it will work better for your specific listening space because it will correct any nulls or room nodes you might hear in the sweet spot, which IMO is all you should care about. Of course, you'll hear a lot of tubbiness if you get up and walk around the room, but in all seriousness, who cares what it sounds like outside the listening space? Once you run the auto-calibration off the F110 with the mic in the listening spot, the bass will sound perfect. Trust me, I've done it over a dozen times after changing listening rooms and room configurations. The F110 does a fantastic job of EQing the room from the listening space. I don't have the acoustic theories that a lot of other people rely on, but I agree with @jetter in the sense that people overcomplicate this subject a lot. What I do have is actual experience setting up the F110 in several different rooms and I can definitely vouch for its attributes. In fact, I've finally upgraded my stand-mount speakers because, for the longest time, I wanted speakers that could complement the performance of the F110.
Now let me answer the original question you asked, which is which sub would be more "musical," the E110 or the F110. I think that boils down to how you define "musical." Let me just establish that I consider the description musical to be the opposite of, say, clinical. When I hear the word musical, people are often using it to contrast it with a sound that's fast, dry, grippy and detailed. Some people don't like those characteristics in gear but I quite like it. And it's actually what I like most about the F110. It's a very fast, grippy sub, but at the same time, it will convey warmth and musicality IF it's inherent in the recording. For example, one of the great recordings for showing off the F110 is an album by Brian Bromberg called Wood. Bromberg plays an 18th-century double bass but he uses a lot of very percussive fingering and plucking techniques that saturate the soundstage with minute transient detail, all of which is picked up marvelously by the F110. But, at the same time, because of the bass he's playing with, there's a tremendous amount of warmth to go along with it, which the F110 also conveys exceptionally. Another recording where the F110 plays very warm and musical is Schubert, Die Nacht played by Anja Lechner and Pablo Márquez. So, basically, I'm saying that the F110 will be warm and musical if it's inherent in the source material. But if you asked me to describe the sub as "musical," I wouldn't use that word because it's a very fast, grippy and detailed sub, which IMO is just what you want in a sub.
Finally, I will also highly recommend an active crossover. I saw you mentioned the CR-1, which is the one that I also have my eye on. But before pulling the trigger on it, I tried a much cheaper active crossover, the MiniDSP. In a previous post, @erik_squires and others were very helpful in explaining to me the effects of driving too low frequencies to the 7" woofer on my stand-mounts. I've since incorporated the MiniDSP to roll off the frequencies below 90hz from the stand-mounts so the JL is handling all of those and the results have been very satisfactory. The amp is working more efficiently for frequencies above 90hz and the overall tonal quality of the soundstage is more finely detailed.
So definitely go with the F110, one will be fine. And definitely use an active crossover. I hope this answers your question. |
Either JL would be overpowering in your room, especially two.
The most musical subs I have owned are the RELT9is, easy to integrate as well. I was skeptical but people who love them are right. The bass has a fast, high quality sound, the cabinets are heavy and do not resonate or color the midrange.
I have owned JLs in the past and after years of integration they never sounded as good as the RELs did after two weeks. Just make sure to keep them 12" from wall surfaces and follow their break in procedure.
Keep a log book of the no. of clicks on the controls too as you adjust level and crossover as they settle in. |
You might want to try 2 of the HSU
ULS-15 MK2
subs at $729.00 each |
Once again, thank you all. I know I'm asking questions that are a bit "sideway" and I appreciate the thoughtfulness of the answers. @james633, yes, I do plan on getting two and, frankly, two fathoms would cost a heck of a lot. I think they're about $3500 now. The DARO does sound very effective, though.
Again, thanks to this board. I always learn so much out here. |
The JL audio E110 will be fine. Don’t let anyone tell you different. The high pass crossover in then works well if you have separates (the sub goes between your pre amp and amp).
I would go with two smaller subs over one larger more expensive subs. 1 sub is hard to work with.
I have two e112s in my system. I use the high pass crossovers. Best system change I ever made and it got me off the marry-go-round. The only down side to the duel subs with high pass is all the extra wires. Is what it is.
I demoed the e110 and e112 back to back. The e112 is a better sub. It just goes lower and has more dynamics. The smaller sub is not “faster” or more “musical” or any other nonsense like that. Bigger is better, just means the driver moves less.
The fathom line is a lot more money. They are what $4k each now? and you would still need a crossover IMO. |
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The most advanced by a long shot and Best Buy
SVS 3000 db tons of awards and 2 for under $2k delivered
45day trial even free return shipping if not thrilled
5 year Transferrable warranty with great sub app .
I owned several Rel ,JL audio none in the $1500 each range can touch it ,and because of the Dual voice coil ,even at lower volume defined bass, honest bsss to 18 HZ. |
@audiorusty, thanks. I have separates. I plan on using a CR1 outboard crossover, primarily for the high-pass crossover; it should help with integration (and, I hope, free up the mains) but I doubt it's going to take the place of DARO or other integration methods.
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In my opinion the e110 has the potential to be more musical because of its true 2 way crossover capabilities, but would probably be more difficult to set-up which may negate that potential.
Are you using separates or an integrated amp? |
Thanks, all. Duke, you are a true gentleman and a source of terrific information out here.
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in phase and in time matters at all frequencies, if we are talking optimization. how perfect do you want it? mostly this matters as a result of how dynamic we expect to run our systems. at low SPL’s no doubt time is less an issue since the negative effects are minimal. but at warp 11 when the music is borderline falling apart; time and phase issues makes it all a mess.
i have twin tower speakers; one tower is a 86" tall, 750 pound stack of 4 15" active subwoofers, high passed at 40hz. the other tower is an 82" inch tall 750 pound passive tower. exactly aligning these 2 towers equa-distant to the listening position makes a musical difference.
the idea is you want a perfectly timed wave launch from all the drivers if you can do it.
btw; the sound is really fine when the 2 towers are not perfectly aligned, but better when they are aligned. this is an analog approach to subwoofer set-up and time alignment. so i would not argue with anyone who said that time alignment of subs was not important. these type things don’t matter the same to everyone, nor should they.
how perfect do you want things to sound?
i have a separate room with a Home Theater. with an LFE channel. the idea is the same, but the approach and solution is different. in this case i will be using a minidsp with 3 Funk Audio 18.0 subs (i don't have room for '4') arrayed around the room then this total result will be one channel into a Trinnov Altitude 16 processor. part of my set-up will be using a mic to adjust the delay to get all the subs exactly time aligned to my MLP (main listening position). then tune the 3 subs for best room response.
so when all hell is breaking loose, it will be more satisfyingly breaking loose and the truth of the recorded event will be fully enjoyed. many people don’t really care about that. i’m not ’many people’. |
Northman, given your situation, I’d suggest the sub that has the most powerful EQ. That would be the F110.
I apologize for volunteering subwoofer-related information that you did not ask for. I misunderstood what you were open to:
"I’m ready to be taught and I’m ready to be schooled. I’ve never owned a subwoofer and I’m not so hot with the physics of acoustics."
Duke
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Almost forgot. There is one sense in which timing matters. Because the benefit of DBA is multiple locations creates multiple smooth small modes. Moving subs around moves the modes around. But the modes can also be moved around by changing the timing or phase of the signal. Simplest way is to reverse phase. Some amps like Dayton let you adjust phase. Phase and timing are different aspects of the same thing.
But again, we are talking phase changes of a very low frequency. 20Hz is 1/20th of a second. Many orders of magnitude longer than the time it takes electricity to travel an extra few feet down a wire. So timing is moot in that sense too. |
I appreciate all the advice. Perhaps I should have made it clear, though: I'm not putting four subwoofers into a 10'x11' room. (Oh, wait. I did make that clear.) And as much as I appreciate the advice, I'm not asking about subwoofer integration.
I don't mean to be rude but my original question remains and I'd rather not see this thread launch itself into the swarm stratosphere. I grant that four subs are better but I'm not doing that in this tiny room. We can blame my wife if we want. If it makes people feel better, I'll ask it about two subs: would TWO e110s sound any different than TWO f110v2? The difference in cost is $4,000. Would the higher-end subs sound better? Or can we simply not hear a difference between subwoofers? (Also, people talk about speed; if the stand-mounts are fast, do I need a fast sub?)
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No timing issues. Impossible to have timing issues with a sub. Simply cannot happen.
Let me clarify that. Its impossible to have timing issues if you mean in the sense its so critically important to midrange and treble, in particular with imaging. Higher frequencies are short waves and this resolution is where we get a lot of our sense of location. Absolutely critical. Difference of as little as 1/8" in speaker location can be heard.
Low bass however is very long wave. Feet not inches. Forty to sixty feet. Also research has shown that at low bass frequencies we need a full wave to even register the sound. Cannot hear less than a full wave! Well, a full wave at 40 Hz is 1/40th of a second. In that time the wave can travel clear across the room and back. So how are we gonna know where it came from? How is timing going to even be an issue? Its not. Can't be!
Yes I know you will hear again and again how important timing is. Just remember the physics and smile and learn something about how often people repeat stuff without ever thinking things through.
Seemingly contrary to the above you will probably notice the bass from your swarm is even more 3D and seems at times to be very clearly localized. Mine sure is. But this is because we get our localization cues from higher frequencies, which when the bass is clean like this they are heard more clearly as well. But this can be proven to have nothing to do with the subs by the simple test of wiring them all mono. Bass will be just as perfect mono or stereo. Because when it comes to low bass there is no stereo. How could there be? There's those long waves again. Physics!
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millercarbon
Question ,I am employing the swarm in my new room you chimed in on from my post, and I have also in home theatre.When running the longer length of cabling to get to the furthest subs are you experiencing timing issues? please elaborate on this ? |
You know it is blasphemy to say, but I have a couple of SVS subs, one next to each speaker, and I have once before written that for some reason I have not had the problems others have making them sound right to my ears. Not blasphemy to me, but not the path I’d recommend everyone try first. The problems that you run into getting very deep bass is that too much is up to chance and circumstance. Open floor plans, good speaker/listener position, and otherwise naturally good acoustics contribute. I will say though that I’ve heard many subs be configured so they are inoffensive, without being fantastic. I fell into this trap myself for a while I was satisfied with what I had and thought it was the best I could do without brand shuffling. Which one are you? I don’t know. You could have gotten super lucky, you might have settled. Lets be grateful for these lucky situations when they happen. |
Unless you listen in an anechoic chamber, one of any quality won’t cut it.
Room nodes.
Might as well stick to headphones
Get as many as you have room and funds for, up to 4. Mismatch OK.
You been schooled. |
The $3500 you are planning to spend on one sub alone will buy you four subs that will together far outperform anything you can get from any one sub at any price. Sorry the other boob got here first. Really. Because you want to do this right you need to learn a little acoustics if you want to understand, and the stuff above is simply out of date bad physics and bad audio. Do a search for distributed bass array, DBA or Swarm subwoofer system. There's three main reasons why multiple subs works far better than one: physics, acoustics, and psycho-acoustics. The physics is that low bass waves are 40, 50, 60 feet. Much longer than any room in a house. Because of this it really does not matter what sub is used, the waves are all going to hit a wall and double back long before even one wave is complete. Smaller rooms are actually worse than bigger ones. But even a really big room is small relative to these long wave lengths. Because of this no matter where you put a sub the wave always winds up reflecting back and either canceling or reinforcing itself. This is all pure physics, nothing you can do about it, impossible to solve with any DSP, EQ, or sub technology. The acoustics part is that because of this you are going to hear lumpy crappy bass from one sub. People will tell you to equalize it. Don't. The only way to EQ bass smooth at the place where you listen is to have it be even worse everywhere else. One thing makes for bad muddy bass is the bass energy in the room excites all the walls into vibrating and this takes time to dissipate and die down. The whole time this is happening its muddying the bass. EQ only makes this worse by turning up the bass. That is why people recommending EQ are always also recommending tube traps. First they have you spend money to make the bass worse, then they want you to spend even more money to fix the problem they created. Beautiful. But the website is very pretty. So it must be right. Right? The psycho-acoustics part is we aren't able to localize really low bass. Below about 80 Hz its all about volume not location. We get all our location cues from midrange and treble. Very low bass we cannot even hear at all at less than one full cycle. Understand all three of these and you can see why multiple subs is the answer. Multiple subs means multiple locations means lots of small lumps and dips that all together add up to smooth even deep and powerful bass. Not needing EQ means not adding more energy than is needed means not exciting the room means the bass will be clean and clear and articulate- without tube traps. You can still do that stuff if you want but with four subs it will be fine-tuning, and extremely fine tuning at that. All the EQ I need is on my Dayton sub amps. Total cost for a Swarm or any four subs will be around or under your $3500. Of course you can get four of those and it will be even better. Skip the blather. Do a search. Study the system. Notice a lot of people simply cannot get their minds around the ideas. Notice how extremely happy and impressed are those who do, and who actually have one. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Read Duke, Tim, and me. Skip the other one. Hopelessly lost. Does have a lot of pretty pictures though, I'll give him that. |
Northman, here is my $.02:
Four E110’s, intelligently positioned, will have about twice the inherent in-room smoothness (and correspondingly better tonality) compared with two F110v2’s. I can explain why if you’d like. Tonality in the bass region is a function of the in-room frequency response. And "smooth bass" is "fast bass", because it is the room-induced peaks which decay more slowly and sound boomy and degrade clarity and tonality in the bass region.
Another advantage of having four subwoofers instead of two is that the (improved) frequency response holds up well throughout the room. When the frequency response is similar throughout the room, any EQing you do will be beneficial throughout the room as well, instead of improving the response in the "sweet spot" but making it worse elsewhere. So if you have multiple listeners, nobody gets cheated with a good distributed multi-sub system.
Even three subwoofers intelligently distributed is imo a worthwhile improvement over two. Or to get the best balance between bass quality and number of "footprints" occupied by speakers in your room, maybe use four subs with two of them doing double-duty as speaker stands, though that might not be practical if the heavy-cone JL Audio subs would vibrate your main speakers.
In general I have a great deal of respect for Erik’s opinions. Note that his objection to a distributed multiple subwoofer system is based not on the technique lacking in merit, but rather on his negative feelings towards people who have advocated it. I appreciate the fact that he makes that distinction clear in his blog post.
Duke |
In good humor coming back at you Erik, do you need someone to instruct you on how to set the tone controls on your Luxman? Which I wish I could have purchased with the deal you secured. |
You know it is blasphemy to say, but I have a couple of SVS subs, one next to each speaker, and I have once before written that for some reason I have not had the problems others have making them sound right to my ears. When it comes down to the bottom line, they basically have three dials. One for phase, which I always keep on full. And the other two for gain (volume) and low pass.
My writing this before elicited a response by someone that I probably do not know what a properly set up sub sounds like. Well it sounds good to me, just lucky I guess.
Let's not overcomplicate the issue, there are three dials. |
Thanks, Erik. I'm going to give your blog a real read. It sounds like you're advocating for the Fathom with DARO. Yes, I've read it's very effective. (Priceless but pricey?) |
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