Thanks, Erik. I'm going to give your blog a real read. It sounds like you're advocating for the Fathom with DARO. Yes, I've read it's very effective. (Priceless but pricey?) |
Once again, thank you all. I know I'm asking questions that are a bit "sideway" and I appreciate the thoughtfulness of the answers. @james633, yes, I do plan on getting two and, frankly, two fathoms would cost a heck of a lot. I think they're about $3500 now. The DARO does sound very effective, though.
Again, thanks to this board. I always learn so much out here. |
I appreciate all the advice. Perhaps I should have made it clear, though: I'm not putting four subwoofers into a 10'x11' room. (Oh, wait. I did make that clear.) And as much as I appreciate the advice, I'm not asking about subwoofer integration.
I don't mean to be rude but my original question remains and I'd rather not see this thread launch itself into the swarm stratosphere. I grant that four subs are better but I'm not doing that in this tiny room. We can blame my wife if we want. If it makes people feel better, I'll ask it about two subs: would TWO e110s sound any different than TWO f110v2? The difference in cost is $4,000. Would the higher-end subs sound better? Or can we simply not hear a difference between subwoofers? (Also, people talk about speed; if the stand-mounts are fast, do I need a fast sub?)
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Thanks, all. Duke, you are a true gentleman and a source of terrific information out here.
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@audiorusty, thanks. I have separates. I plan on using a CR1 outboard crossover, primarily for the high-pass crossover; it should help with integration (and, I hope, free up the mains) but I doubt it's going to take the place of DARO or other integration methods.
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It's hard for me to exaggerate how much all this helps me and how much I appreciate it. In this case I don't feel discouraged by the differing opinions, as I know there are many paths to a good result and each post is thoughtful and informed. For example, I know that Eric is correct: a CR1 + F110 would cost close to $7,000 new, and if I were "very experienced" or had calibration tools, I could achieve similar results for much less money. (I'm not and I don't, but I also don't have the big bucks to throw around.)
Let me say that I appreciate the recommendations about different subwoofer brands. I've heard great things about REL, Rhythmik, Hsu, and others. And @bailyhill, I have huge respect for Vandersteen and John Rutan. I seriously thought about the Treos before making the decision to try near-field.
@mijostyn, that's an excellent description of the process. I've read many explanations of sub placement with the Fathoms but yours was particularly helpful. Placing the subwoofer *before* the DARO sounds exactly right. I am worried about the phase alignment but your recommendations are very helpful. And YES about the crossover point for mini monitors.
@diamonddupree, hey now! I didn't mean to suggest that DARO doesn't interest me, just that I wanted to clear away as much as possible to get to my underlying question about "musicality" in subs-- and thus special thanks to you for taking that question on. What you write is exactly what I was curious about. I've just added "Wood" to my Qobuz list. Also, I'm not sure if your name is a reference to that band beyond description, but if so, right on, brother.
@audiotroy, I have to say that I find it off-putting when a dealer disparages a line he doesn't carry. I also think that, when you're presenting yourself as a professional selling specialized audio equipment, you might want to take the time to spell and punctuate. I genuinely mean that for your own good, as your words make an impression.
Thanks again, everyone. I feel like I have a MUCH better sense of how to think about all this.
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Q: How many audiophiles does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: What kind of light fixture is it and how is it wired? Is the bulb dimmable? A watt is a watt but some watts are brighter than others. Before you change that lightbulb, have you considered room treatments? And so on...
I'm goofing around and I really do appreciate all the different opinions. (By the way, I have no idea if JL claims its subwoofers are musical; that was my word, not theirs.)
So here's a question that should have an actual answer: at what hz point does the average human ear start to discern music, timbre, nuance? Is the lowest note on a piano, at roughly 28hz, just a low rumble of vibration, the same on a Steinway Grand as on a cheap cottage piano? And if that's the case, at what point on the keyboard can most people start to detect a note with resonance and beauty? By the way, I do understand and accept the physics behind multiple subs--no argument there at all.
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I truly appreciate the answer but I ain't never going to "throw away .. music, beauty, and timbre." That's like saying that a poem is just organized words which are just signifiers operating arbitrarily in a system of differences. Sure, right, but we can still *experience* beauty in the arrangement of those words, and to give up on that is to live in a mechanistic world without, well, art. And that's no world I want to live in. (And contra many posts out here, beauty may be "culturally constructed" and contingent, but it's not nearly as subjective as people think.)
Sigh. I feel like there must be an answer to my question, but maybe I'm wrong. We are drawn to speakers because they reproduce a range of frequencies in ways that are pleasing to us. They sound warm or inviting or thrilling or holographic or punchy or big or assertive or magical or whatever. It seems to me that subwoofers either do that or they don't; or it seems to me that there must be an hZ point at which we can begin to discern the sound we're looking for. If subwoofers don't reproduce an appealing image at, say, 80hZ-100hZ, then there's nothing for us to hear, only feel. But at some point up the frequency range we must be able to identify the signature, the sound, that we like. No?
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Wow--such incredibly thoughtful responses. I simply love that there are so many approaches to finding the right sound (for each room and listener). And, yes, I’m looking at powered subs.
@fastfreight, that’s a mighty, mighty post. You should be the OP here as both you and your system are so deliberate! Your post gave me a lot to think about.
@slimpikins5, your post has also opened my thinking (and I’ve been wanting to hear those Bryston speakers).
I don’t mean to hijack my own thread but after reading these posts I’m now curious about sub integration software. Is there something out there that is known for being effective and relatively simple? I’m not gifted with the science of it but I’m probably more competent than I sound in this thread. A quick glance suggests that many people have used the XTZ Room Analyzer. Any thoughts? I know there’s free software floating around; I just want something that is straightforward to use.
Part of my thinking is that the Fathom has the DARO system that is well liked, so if I don’t get the Fathom it might be good to have another method for setting up the room dynamics as much as possible. I also think it might be fun for me to learn more about the way that sound works. I wouldn’t have to skip the graphs in the online reviews and jump straight to the conclusions! If the software is effective, I could buy two subs--JL e110, REL, Axiom, etc--for the price of one Fathom AND the mic/software. Can I really put TWO subs in a 10’ x 11’ room?
I’m not trying to complicate things here! It’s fun for me to think about these projects.
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@slimpikins5, thank you for all the great advice! I think the Model Ts might be a bit small for my space, and I'm not sure that 2000 watts is enough for my needs. I want my system to make a statement. And ... I am kidding... The room I'm setting up is tiny, 10' x 11', and I'm going with small stand-mounts for near-field listening. Still, maybe some day I could hear your set-up, which sounds incredible. I actually am in northern New England--outside of Burlington, VT.
Also, I love how accessible the Bryston staff is. I've owned a lot of Bryston gear and I've emailed a few times with James Tanner as well as messaged with him on audiocircle. In fact, I just had an old amp spiffed up at the Bryston "repair center" near Montpelier. Forget a sterile office building; it's an old Victorian schoolhouse that's been converted to office space. It was fun seeing the amps and whatnot all over the place.
I like what you say about DSP. Needless to say, there are many opinions about all this!
@jssmith, it takes all kinds of universes, doesn't it? For me, the fact that terms have multiple meanings is hardly cause to throw them away; in fact, that's what makes them interesting (but not "subjective"). I like that "musical" can mean different things, and in fact that's the pleasure of art. That said, I was not only asking about "musical subwoofers" but also something that should have a clinical answer: at what point in the frequency range can most humans begin to discern notes, melody, tone, ... music? (Also, if you can identify poetry as "a bunch of rhymes" then you are in fact recognizing a genre, a type of expression with complexity and nuance, whether you like it or not.) I'll add that my son got a free pair of Beats when he bought some Apple product a few years ago; OMG, that woofy, vague bass is exactly what I don't want in a sub!
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@slimpikins5--NICE! I bet the French bistro was Lunig's. "The Valley"--Warren, Waitsfield, and the Sugarbush region in general--is just beautiful. I live about ten minutes from Smuggs and skied there all the time when my kids were young. By the way, I was skiing (not ever close to your league!) in the mid 70s, when Stowe was still a small town and Okemo had poma lifts.
@desktopguy, thanks. I've heard much the same about the e110. And: I'm not using a big room, I don't need to go below 25hz, and disco sucks. (Yes, I was one of those guys in the 70s; now I love it!)
@jssmith, I appreciate your comments. I really do understand what you're saying: "notes are just frequencies." I'm drawn to the art part more than the physics, so I'll just add that Thelonious Monk, Jerry Garcia, et al were doing something pretty special with those frequencies.
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