Most organic / real / analogue sounding DAC (ideally with Volume Control) for $1500??????
I’d say I’m completely jaded with digital Hifi. All sounds so thin & clinical.
I people raving about Benchmark DACs & Chord Mojos etc. They sound like hell to me. Nothing at all like real live voices & instruments.
I’ve been reading about R2R Ladders & NOS. The descriptions match what I’m looking for. I want natural sound that makes me forget about Hifi & just listen to the music. like Reel to Reel without the faff.
Lifelike is my aim, but I certainly prefer a warm, dark sound over clinical.
Don't need a load of inputs. Only need 2 or 3. I don’t have any analog sources, so prefer the DAC to have Volume Control to eliminate the need for a Pre Amp. However, if the best sounding DACs don’t have Volume Control & there are clear sonic benefits to having a Preamp, then I could be persuaded.
I’m in a good position, given I sold all my expensive gear when I became jaded with Hifi. I’m now left with just a few cheap bits. An old Quad 34 Pre & 606.2 amp, and a little pair of Ruark speakers.
The Denafrips Ares is sounding nice even in that setup.
So I’ve got a blank canvas. I’ll be demoing Amps & Speakers. Trying to be sure to get the right match this time.
Schiit Audio Yggdrasil GS. 1600.00 new. Been using one for quite awhile. Slight warmth, lots of resolution, BIG sound. My system details are posted here. In this system zero complaints.
What could you be listening to that makes "all digital sound thin and critical"? It hasn't been for many years- def not a result of being digital. I'd look at other areas of your system and room first that can have a much more heavy handed impact on brightness, bass etc. chances are really high its not your DAC.
What could you be listening to that makes "all digital sound thin and critical"? It hasn't been for many years- def not a result of being digital. I'd look at other areas of your system and room first that can have a much more heavy handed impact on brightness, bass etc. chances are really high its not your DAC.
DAC by itself is meaningless. Everything works in combination with everything else. Input signal comes on a cable, wireless connection or network. Assuming the original signal is pristine the input cables or method have to match the equipment to the fullest extend possible. Power cable? Same on the out leg to amplification. How well do the output cables and amplification match to the DAC? How about room vibrations and damping? I could go on but there are so many factors to consider and dial in right down to room acoustics to tame.
I have to agree with midareff1! I sold high end car audio for 13 years. The brands had different signature sounds etc. but it wasn’t until I really jumped into home audio. Did I realize home audio systems Must have synergy if you expect to be satisfied with yours. Just a single cable can change the sound to be completely different. So getting your system molded to your particular needs/wants is a work in progress. Go to your local hifi shop and listen to gear in person! You can only read so many reviews and skim through the forums until it’s time for an in person demonstrations. When I sold car audio. I had to provide great demos so customers could truly decide what they enjoyed most about the brands and different gear. I am satisfied with the system I currently own but I wasted a lot of money buying and reselling stuff that wasn’t what I wanted my system to sound like. For you to truly be happy. There's nothing better than getting the experience first hand and figuring out what you like before you even plug it in at home.
I agree with you concerning dacs like the benchmark, it simply sounds thin and digital to me. Even the DCS One which I’ve listened to quite a bit is nothing to really talk about compared to a good analog rig. Two of the most real sounding dacs I know of and which I own and fit your price requirements are the Museatex Bidat which has the ability to use a wired volume control which is very very good and the Museatex (Melior) Bitstream which is also incredibly good. They are full sounding and simply sound more like a higher end analog rig than most of the new stuff being hyped. If you have John Wright in Calgary put the latest mods on them, it’s game over.
The Bidat and the Bitstream are very similar in sound. The Bitstream is the surprise. That thing is simply head and shoulders above the newer dacs I’ve heard and yes, that includes the $80k DCS One. You should be able to find a modified Bitstream for under $900.00, non modified for like $425.00.
I’ll put it this way, between my AMR CD 77.1, Bidat, Bitstream and AMR DP 777 se I am no longer the least bit interested in hi-res, MQA, DSD or any of the latest and greatest formats. Redbook sounds incredible on these machines. I do have 800 DSD files and an iFi iDSD Pro and iDSD Black Label so I can play native dsd and yes, it sounds fantastic and there is merit to the format. I normally use HQPlayer to convert the DSD to 16 bit 44.1khz and feed it to the Bitstream, Bidat or DP 777 SE. I switch up :)
The iDSD Pro is my office system and I listen natively, DSD/MQA/RB, etc with that setup.
You need to experience the Bitstream to believe it. You will literally forget about the new gear being offered.
When talking about R2R NOS-DACs, Metrum Acoustic is worth considering. Metrum makes their own DAC chips, which divide 24 bit in two 12 bit DACs and fuse it together after for real 24 bit in the new DACs. My philosophy is a mellow and natural sound a wee on the warm side. I got there with a point-to-point tube amp and a Metrum Amethyst DAC. This DAC is around €1.300 and the predecessor the Metrum Octave is already a wonder of natural sound. The Amethyst adds to the perfect sound of the Octave just a bit more grunt and bass fundament. Metrum makes a 2k DAC, the Metrum Jade, which is even a wee more sophisticated and is a digital preamp with loudness control. I have not heard the Jade yet though.
I formerly owned the Metrum Octave and I agree with you, it is a very very good dac. In fact, my octave dethroned my former much more expensive MSB Power Dac ($4k) which used MSB’s custom made ladder dacs and was battery or grid powered. It was no contest, the Octave slapped it down and I sold the MSB. Then came the AMR DP 777 (the SE was not yet in existence). To my dismay the AMR, simply made the Octave sound mechanical. I say dismay, because that meant I had to come out of pocket :) I’ve now owned the DP since like 2011. For new dacs, Metrum is hard to beat for the dollar spent.
They may make their own discrete R2R resistor boards, like MSB Holo Denafrips ect, but I doubt they have their own R2R chip IC’s manufacturing processes.
I think you are on the right track with R2R. As others say a lot depends on the other components and source materials but I find they are more "analog sounding". I had chip-based dacs, went with at TT and LPs to get that analog sound, then switched to an R2R day and wish I'd done that first as I wouldn't have gone with analog sources. Sounds amazing. Tough to fit in your budget though but have a look at Kitsune' / Holo Audio. Maybe the low-end Spring 2...
Don’t expect too much from a DAC change. I’ve had a Chord Qutest for over two years, while my system has been through many upgrades, and changes to position and the room. At the beginning, I could never take the Neutral Incisive filter as it sounded “cold and clinical”, and I’d move to the Warm, which introduces distortion and makes the sound pleasant, but mushy. It sounded better until recently, when the rest of my system got right. Now the Neutral Incisive filter sounds musical, clear, deep, tall, and with realistic timbre and that “wow, the instrument is there” feeling. I’m not trying to say Chord is the best, but I want to warn against the endless search for “warm and lifelike” in a piece of equipment, when the system as a whole makes that happen.
>>>>>I’ve been reading about R2R Ladders & NOS. The descriptions match what I’m looking for. I want natural sound that makes me forget about Hifi & just listen to the music.like Reel to Reel without the faff. <<<<
I have a Schiit with ladder.... I also owned very well respected audiophile DACs with chips. They definitely sound different at least on on my system. The ladder is more like listening to a record, but without the sweetening the cartridges cause. I do not want to mention names of the other brands to avoid a fight. At first the ladder sounded dull in comparison... Because the chip DAC’s were in my face and harsh at times. I no longer get fatigue with the ladder DAC. The others caused fatigue for me.
I purchased the Burson Conductor 3 Reference about 8 months ago. I am using it as a direct DAC/Preamp to my Audio Research Amplifier, 2 channel system. I hardly use the headphone amp except late at night. I was disappointed at first with the DAC. But everything I read says this box takes a while to break in. I cannot tell you how much the sound has changed since I purchased it. It has changed my opinion of digital greatly. At first I planned on using it just for my headphones (full house necessitated greater headphone use due to Covid-19) and later shortly laying out some bigger $$ for a PS Audio, Total DAC or exaSound DAC. But after running it through my 2 channel system for 40-60 hours I have lost all interest/desire in purchasing a new DAC.
Very happy and Burson has an exceptional reputation. They definitely ship to UK and I checked before I posted, there are dealers there. A sample from my listening room:
If you want an “analog” sounding DAC, I don’t think you can for $1500. The Prima Luna EVO 100 Tube DAC Is $3k. The Halo Audio May DAC starts at $4k. You may like the Halo Audio Spring DAC which starts at $1.7k. The other DACs suggested sound great for the money, but I don’t believe it’ll meet your “analog” requirement.
For $1.5k, you may try a tube type DAC (maybe used) which may have a fuller midrange and be less digital sounding, but you may be sacrificing transparency, detail, and increasing your noise floor.
People in search of “real”, the type that can fool you into thinking you’re listening to a live event including the venue’s unique sonics, differences in piano brand, dropping the noise floor to black (Super low/unperceivable), etc., can easily spend into the 5 figures per component.
I think my point is being missed as I’m a huge analog guy - vinyl is by far the most enjoyable and emotionally stirring format to listen to music provided you are set up properly, which is unfortunately linked to a price floor. In my experience there is a performance-to-price inflection point. Once you get into the $3K+ range with analog - including table, phono stage, and cart - analog begins to really distance itself from that $1500 digital front end. In fact you will have to start throwing lots of money (think multiples here) towards an exceptional DAC (like Lampizator) to start to get anywhere close to that $3K+ analog rig.
Some $500 Rega table + $500 Project Tube Box preamp + $500 Ortofon MM cart just isn’t going to a match a $1500 Benchmark DAC3 or Qutest.
I enjoyed the analog like sound of the EAR Acute for 14 years. I recently replaced it with the COS Engineering D-2 DAC. I already have an all tube audio system and I relish the added detail, dimension and dynamics of the COS and it isn't cheap. Wonderful stepped resistor volume control and anti-jitter one second delay feature for music only, no delay for video. I have 7,000 CDs, many great remastering with 25,000 LPs and usually not as well mastered. I love analog when it's good but most of my CDs sound good to great as well. So many mediocre LPs with great performances, many never to be transferred to digital CD or streaming.
I prefer my second-hand Levinson no.36 (R-2R) DAC over my upsampling no.390S CDP.
The differences are subtle - but important in longer listening, for sure.
Most, if not all, older hi-end DACs will not have volume control, other than the 'bit stripping' kind. So not an option in my listening experience.
I got my ML36 for some $500 not too long ago, and for a ~25 year old item it sounds as good as my best sounding analogue - given the right source material. However, like this item, older high-end R-2R DACs will of course not be able to decode higher than '20'/48. I do not listen to streaming so no issue, as well recorded CDs sound fabulous and seriously challenge my pretty hi-end analogue sound (SME 10A tt, SME V tonearm, Ortofon Cadanza Black). M. 🇿🇦
Yes the No.36 dac and No.39 cd-player were some of their best R2R units and sound better than the later Delta Sigma based stuff, and hard to find get for a good price, THEY KNOW😢
While most seem to say that vinyl sounds better than digital, digital also can sound great. Digital also offers the following advantages: - cheaper price of admission - cheaper media - more available media - much more available songs, albums - purchase songs and not whole albums - creating playlists - portable devices - can be easily copied to a variety of storage devices - the audio performance/technology is growing at an incredible rate - the convenience of streaming - the ability to access vast libraries of songs through subscription services including high res files - the ability to attach metadata to the album/songs, like asking which albums did this artist perform on, biographies, full credits, etc - the convenience to choosing songs through my iPad while sitting down and not having to battle gravity by getting my lazy ass up except for snack reloads and bathroom breaks (two highly motivated activities)
Why choose? I have both audio chains.
However, there are some aspects of lowering the noise floor in digital that drives me little crazy thinking about: fiber optic filtering interconnect and Ethernet, linear power supplies, signal re-generators, master clocks, audiophile Ethernet cards, stacking audiophile Ethernet cards, vibration control surfaces, additional cabling, cost
Sometimes it seems like: Obsessive Me vs my bank account, WAF, family, friends, the rest of the world MINUS like minded audiophiles
am running my own lil dac shootout given the covid time at home
in play: chord qutest, 2qute, mojo chord m scaler (in association with certain dacs of course) metrum jade, octave ayre codex mhdt stockholm, orchid w/ a gaggle of tubes neko d100-2 van alstine fet topp r2r border patrol jolida black ice glass (now out for wally mods) hegel rost and h390 internal dacs
sold/relegated: rme adi-2 -- image size and depth poor, despite great clarity schiit bifrost mb -- tone nice but sibilant lower treble node 2i internal -- rolled muddy slurred topping d90 -- clear but somewhat artificial in tone
three_easy_payments4 I do own a Metrum Amethyst Non-Oversampling DAC (1.3k) and a Systemdek IIX / SME / MC / Ortofon Prepre feeding my tubeamp. Than I have a dedicated LOKI DSD DAC.. . The DSD DAC is a € 100 device and is on par with the Non-Oversampling DAC and the turntable - and sounding VERY ANALOG. BUT SACD / DSD64 has a very limited offering. . What I mostly do is download LP rips, convert them to 24bit / 48khz and have them in an iPod Classic / Pro-Ject Digital Dockingstation feeding my Metrum DAC via chinch toslink. . Many of my favourite albums from Ultravox / Alphavile / Yazoo / Depeche Mode were produced in 24bit / 48 khz anyway, so the loss is minute. . When listening to Rolling Stones on DSD I do not know whether it sounds "better" in the sense that it gets more music out of it, but for sure sounds more like"reel to reel". . There are newly recorded SACD / DSD64 albums which deliver "sound plankton" which to match one would need a DXD aka 352.8 khz recording. . The sky is the limit. I am happy with 24bit / 48 khz with a non-oversampling DAC and a tube amp. YMMV . And no - my turntable sounds for the most part just like my Nos DAC. ( I do not have the money for an tube EAR prepre, but than it might be better. MIGHT!!!) .
audiofun4 The 777 is a tube DAC. I do have a tube amp, so I do not need the "infusion of happy vibes" a tube might give you with SS gear. I am a sucker for a "mellow" sound - and with my tube amp and the Metrum Octave I had before I already got me there. The Amethyst just added more bass and "grunt" - letting the Octave sounding a wee bit dreamy - and the Amethyst more "real". I am a happy camper with 24bit / 48khz and even redbook sounds "analog enough" - warm and bassy that is now.
I think the folks that believe digital will never come close to sounding as pleasing as analog never felt motivated enough to try very hard.The majority of the upgrades and tweaks went towards optimizing their analog setup.Not that there's anything wrong with that:-)They will never sound exactly the same but a system put together to make the most of a digital front end will be equally satisfying and sound wonderful.As others have mentioned it's the system as a whole IMHO.
@jtcf Exactly. Maybe most of my well remastered CDs aren’t exactly analog-like in open, spacious sound, but they are intensely musical sounding. As to my historic (and 1000s of acoustic) 78s on CD, wow, they are better than I could have achieved using my 78 analog front end (VPI 19-4/Ultracraft/Grado 78 e/Marantz 7C). I don't have the time to adjust speed/pitch and stylus size for each of those records.
Gents ,I can see that....money talks to be an audiophile here but I ,like hearing there stories. Some of the money these guys spend here ,I wish I had...lol.
I’m a few days late to this party, but I just picked up a Metrum Amethyst, thinking it would probably be a lot like my Border Partrol SE but more resolving, and I’m very surprised at the extent to which (thus far) I prefer the Border Patrol. In my system, the BP seems to have a lot more weight, body and bass than the Metrum (so far).
To its credit, there is no doubt the Amethyst resolves more detail than the Border Patrol.
There’s a few Audio Alchemy DDP-1s available < $1500. It combines a pre with a dac and a headphone jack. You want one with the optional PS 5 outboard PS though. See TAS March 2016 review. They loved it
I would look for a used Lumin, probably a D1. It's a player/streamer w/ a DAC and volume control. I had a T1 and now an A1 with upgraded external PSU. I would say they get more natural sounding as you go up to the A1, but the D1 is very impressive for the price. The app is also very good and the Lumin can upsample and receive firmware updates to keep up to date (MQA, etc.) Good luck!
@mvrooman1526 I’m happy with it. It doesn’t have any sonic signature that I can hear. It’s not thin or bright (which is a an absolute none starter for me), but it doesn’t seem to add anything either. I forget it’s there.
I'm about at the end of trying to bridge the large quality gap between my record system and my digital. I built a custom audio PC with linear power supply, isolated SSD power rail, and Paul Pang v3 USB controller. I've went through a a bunch of DACs, currently using a Yggdrasil Analog 2. Chinese balanced isolation transformer, audiophile cables throughout mostly Audio Sensibility. The fact is, nothing so far has been able to bring me the big realistic dynamics that I get out of my best records. Record setup is a Triangle Arts Concerto with upgraded platter, speed controller, Reed 2A tonearm and TA Zeus cart. Hashimoto SUT into a Chinese all-tube phono stage (Marantz 7 clone I believe).
I just don't know what to do. Am I just going to have to make my primary system analog only and leave digital to my headphone system?
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