Most Musical 6NS7 tube for a Preamp?

The best 6SN7s I have heard were the Tung Sol round plates. These were used as drivers in a slightly brighter sounding power amplifier. Perhaps one of the best buys are the Hitachi made, often rebranded, 6SN7GTB tubes. 

@aldnorab Don Sachs D2 linestage takes 4 6SN7s that might be a little expensive to run if you want the best tubes. I have tried Ken-Rad VT231, they are well, not the smoothest in the HF but good tubes none of the less.

@jtgofish If you are looking for dynamic and vibrant in 6SN7 tubes you should look elsewhere, use 6CG7 with adapters in place of 6SN7s

The best sounding 6SN7 I have tried in my Supratek Syrah preamp is the cheap Russian  military black base OTK.They are a bit microphonic however.They do sound very dynamic and vibrant though.The worst I have tried is the Shugyang Treasure CV181-Z which sounds quite muffled and dull.The USA Sylvania 6SN7GT black base is decent but a bit lifeless.What would be nice is something with the dynamics and vibrancy of the Russian military and the quietness of the others.Any suggestions.

By the way the Supratek is a fantastic sounding preamp.I own a Supratek Cabernet 300B as well.

Surprised one of the most coveted 6SN7 tubes isn’t mentioned in this thread. I’ve seen Melz rated above all the bad boys, RCA and Ken-Rad. Iirc there’s a small window of time in the 50’s that are the best.

I’m using the Don Sachs D2 linestage, with all wood case, and it is working well with my VTL ST150, Pioneer M22, and PS Audio S300 amps. Also worked well with a friend’s Pass Volksamp. I'm using the Linlai E 6SN7 in it at the moment. Think I actually prefer them to the RCA grey and Ken-Rad black VT-231. But I could live with any of them.

Thanks,

Doug A

BTW, the lowest for acceptable bass line is 1.0uf caps in place, anything less may sound imbalanced.

I have a deHavilland UltraVerve 3 remote version since 2013. I have been through few preamps, the UV3 will stay. I bought mine new direct from Kara, I asked her to installed Mundrof silver gold in oil 2.2uf caps in mine, sounds excellent but if I do it all over again, I will pick Jupiter copper caps instead, the SGO is a little highlight in HF but none of the less the caps sound technically wonderful! This preamp has kickass bass line for a tube pre, if you want less bass just ask her to install 1.5uf coupling caps instead 2.2uf, peace!

 

Best

Griffin

There are a lot of good R2R DACs out there these days. I'm really enjoying my MHDT Orchid. There's a lot that's been written about the R2R NOS DACs in the last couple years and good options out there that don't cost a ton. 

I ended up recently selling my XA 25 and replacing it with the INT25
which is en route to me as I write. 
After much consideration I felt the same maker match was the 
most prudent way to go.
Of course I lost an avenue to tube sound.
I do also want a DAC upgrade from my Oppo 205
so I hope to land an R2R Day with a tube or two inside.

Thanks to everyone who provided their experiences.

Maybe I should run my WE6SN7s for a while to see if the bottom end comes around. So far the Pavane CV181s bests those for good bass, mid bass. 

So,  to the OP, what preamp did you end up getting?

hitachi 6sn7gtb is very good!

I have about 15 pairs american NOS 6sn7 .  Alot of them were microphonic and the tubes that weren't microphonic still gave me tinnitis, - listener fatigue, headache

I tried Electroharminix new tubes and all is good now.  Same extension
I'm using an Aikido Octal preamp

I’ve tried lots of the 6922 and 12xx7 variant pre-amps.I totally agree In the assessment the the 6SN7 is the best tube for application.

I still have many Pre’s with this tube, Wyetech Opal my current fav, Supratek Chenin, ASL Flora. The other I’ve only listened to in other systems and really admired is the MFA luminescence. A used one is very spendy tho.

By all accounts with my readings over the past the Ultraverve Is a very worthy consideration, and I you wanted to stretch a little, the Atma is a great choice too. One of these days I’ll try them both in my rig.

Like others, my favourite tube is the Tung Sol vt231. Crazy expensive, and they are so good I’m compelled to use them. I agree Andy Bowman should on your short list should you want to spend that much. Please note, they are rarely in stock, as many can be microphonic. it’s hard to get a guaranteed great one, be careful when buying elsewhere for that reason. I’m tempted at the New Dawning version mentioned previously in this thread. If they are as good as the Tung Sols, I’m in.

if you want to save yourself a few bucks and feel confident enough to rewire your filament voltages, 8SN7 and 12SN7 variants of the same NOS tubes can be found at cheaper prices.

An acquaintance recently found some Sylvania 8SN7 chrometops at a fraction of the going for the regular variant.

atma- Sorry. How much is the MP 1's retail? (That is the 2 chasis, 6NS7
model correct)?

@chorusYes, but the MP-1 is balanced. We make three preamps- in your case the UV-1 is probably the preamp to look at since your Pass Labs amp only accepts single-ended inputs. 

I emailed Kara she is on a Sabatical so hard to try her Ultraverve.

I know this thread was more about the 6SN7 but another consideration is the preamp gain.  I also listen mostly in the 60-75 dB range. The ability to fine tune the volume has been a challenge for me over the years.  Something to consider.  I am happy with this aspect with the Ultraverve Pass XA25 combo. 

atma- Sorry. How much is the MP 1's retail? (That is the 2 chasis, 6NS7
model correct)?

Sheesh- we don't get in the mix?
I can vouch for Andy Bouwman of Vintage Tube Services. We have many consistently positive comments from our customers going back 25 years.  

My finalist

Prima Luna Evo 300
Don Sachs pre
Valvet L2

BTW best 6SN7 Shuguang WE6SN7 then CV-181 Black glass.

Preamp finalists:

1. Cary SLP 5 -used $3-$3.5k
2. Supratek Chardonnay -New $2k
3. deHavilland Ultraverve- used $2k but upgrades required
4. Dodd Battery -used $1.2k -Something says forget this craziness

LTA MZ2 is not a good match for the Pass. I'm selling mine. The combo has great bass but too clean. No air or lush mids.

Chorus I am in same boat looking to upgrade my cjet3se.  My dream pre is the Vinnie Rossi L2. I own a Pass Xa25 too. It needs a little helping of sugar to balance the sound. This amp as the continueness of tubes with speed and detail most tubes can't match. I am looking at Prima Luna Evo 300 Cary slp 98l. Only problem with these is they come with off the shelf volume Alps pot. Even Jadis uses Alps.😒 It's ok but not SOTA. Let me know what you end up with.

Try contacting Andy Bowman at Vintage Tube Services. He sounds as though he has been around for a while and he is both patient and very helpful. I have a Modwright modded Oppo 105D and I struggled to find the right tubes. Andy was very helpful in steering me through the congested 6sn7 tube market. The link to his sight is http://vintagetubeservices.com/mini-tubes-2/ 
 Andy ships when he say he will and I believe he may allow you to return tubes not to your liking. Good luck, I feel, or did feel, your pain in pursuing this endeavor. Good luck.

Try contacting "Andy" at Vintage Tube Service. The link is http://vintagetubeservices.com/mini-tubes-2/ 
I have a modwright modded Oppo 105D and I struggled for a while finding the right tubes. Andy was -and I believe- still would be very patient and very helpful in steering me in the right direction. He also ships as he promises he will and, probably, will allow you to return tubes that are not to your liking. Good luck, I feel, or did feel, your pain in this endeavor. 

Hello Chorus, ok so I got a better understanding of what your looking for.  I personally find, the more revealing a system is, the more I am affected by its performance even at low listen level. I think you will do well with the 1945 Sylvania 6SN7W short bottle.  Very revealing, very immediate, and musical.  I know of a lot of great 6SN7 tubes but I do not want this to be a confusing process. 

Low,

I appreciate your remembering an earlier inquiry. I have found this
forum very helpful in the past for either confirming my direction or
exposing options I knew nothing of.

I do not possess the vocabulary or years of experience to be
able to so eloquently express what rolls off your tongue.

When I say I am in pursuit of musicality I mean I want to
feel the music move me. I really can't describe it any differently.
I do not have that skill set.

Thank you.

Actually the Sylvania were made in the early 50’s, around 51 or 52. I mistook the year with another item. 

Hello Chorus, I remember responding once before to you on another subject. Anyway, I’ve listened to a lot of 6SN7 tubes in my life. I haven’t heard all of the very good ones but I’ve heard enough. Whenever I look for sounding that has a musical sound, I'm not desiring to give up transparency; I’m also looking that it is transparent too. So musicality to me means something not very detailed and clean sounding but full and textured with great clarity.  Some of the tubes mentioned here are very good, like the TungSol’s but they might be very expensive. But other tubes, like the Sylvania “W” are very clean sounding and even though they are fantastic, you might not find them to be what you’re looking for. One tube that comes to mind that I feel is the perfect one you’re looking for is the genuine Sylvania Crome Dome made in 1957 and 58.  There is a big misunderstanding online of what the genuine Chrome Dome looks like. I can forward you info on this so that you can get correct information. 

I have the UltraVerve and Pass XA25 feeding Focal 1027BE speakers.

Thank you to all for the valuable, informed counsel.

patrick- good confirmation on the newer, Chinese version.

mca-ny- which speakers do you run?

Atma- My reentry to hifi in 2017 has been guided by a now friend
and longtime audiophile. Your comments help to explain why he
put me on the 6NS7 for line stage use.

Great help All!!

Yeah @atmasphere, for pre-amp applications, Roger had a hard-on for the 6DJ8 (used in his RM-5 and the Audible Illusions Modulus 2 & 3). He was a man of "firm" opinions. ;-)

@bdp24 We used the 6DJ8 in some our early stuff, since the tube is very linear (which is probably why Roger liked it) and you could get good bandwidth as it supported high currents.

But finding one that wasn't microphonic was really challenging! I often found examples you could yell at and hear yourself in the speaker- and that was in an amplifier!


The 6DJ8 was not intended for audio- it was more for instrumentation (look in a Tektronix 'scope sometime- the tube ones are full of them) and television work. OTOH the 6SN7 *was* designed for audio, and like many products there were hiccups along the way but they did get the design right.  When we started using it the only source of current production was Russia and they were dreadful. But then the Chinese got in the game and their 6SN7s were pretty good! Since then there has been no turning back and we use the 6SN7 in  all of our products.

When we came out with the UV-1, instead of using the 12AU7 (which is based on the 6SN7) as we were doing in our modifications of the Dynaco PAS-3, since we had the room and the current in the power transformer, we opted for the 6SN7 as the centerpiece of that preamp.


What's nice about the 6SN7 is that if a line stage design is at all competent, it will easily keep up with line stages costing a lot more. It does not have to be a complex circuit- in our UV-1 there's only one tube per channel and 4 resistors!


Audio Research makes respected preamps, but I would expect many of the 6SN7-based preamps on this thread to keep up with any of them. This is not an attack on ARC, its simply a statement of how well 6SN7s work in line stages!

Yeah, it’s all about synergy mca_nyc.
I tried the LTA MZ2 which everybody was raving about about 2 years ago and in my setup it sounded broken, flat, boring, 2 dimensional, and lifeless compared to my preamp. I tried all my best tubes but still wasn’t good
I’m not saying it’s a bad preamp just that it didn’t have synergy with my components. IMHO

I have an XA 25 running with a deHavilland UltraVerve. My volume levels are similar to what you describe.   It is a perfect match for my tastes which are towards tube warmth.  You can roll the 6SN7 to fine tune the sound.  I just this past week rolled from a Sylvania chrome top short glass green label to an NOS black glass oval plate TungSol.  Nice extra is you do not have to worry about matched pairs.  Bass has a bit more punch. Happy before the change and happier now.  Of course, there are so many variables.  In my setup, compared to two prior preamps (an Audio Note M2 and a Vinnie Rossi LIO), the deHavilland is a great match. Both of the other two preamps are very fine products.  It is a matter of how all the variables came together for me.  

My neighbors own both the microzotl and the Sachs. We are able to A/B and often do. I can say with certainly both are wonderful sounding pre amps. The Sachs sounds bigger and exhibits more of a tube flavor but in the most natural way. The LTA offers all the beautiful layering that tubes provide but with a blacker background. If you are looking to make your stereo sound bigger, maybe slightly warmer, I’d say the Sachs. If you are looking for a slightly more neutral sound perhaps the LTA. Again, I don’t think you can lose with any of them. I have not hear either with Pass 😔

Long time 6SN7 fan and tube roller.  I happen to run a Modwright LA-100 and like it very much.  I have run every 6SN7 and I mean every! mentioned above.  I stumbled a crossed a Don Sachs forum thread and for the first time heard of a tube that got rave reviews from NOS snobs like myself, that I had not heard of nor tried.  The Shuguang Dawning Series WE6SN7 PLUS.   Bought a pair on line from a Hong Kong dealer, let them burn in for 150 hours and was absolutely shocked by what I heard.  They replaced my beloved NOS Tung Sol VT-231 Black Glass Round Plates.  These inexpensive Chinese tubes were better in every way.   Sound stage much more open and spacious, great balance top to bottom with lush but not overblown mids.  Great bass and beautiful extended highs without harshness or glare.  I had tried every 6SN7 and these were by far my favorites.  In fact bought a second pair that I now run in my Modwright Oppo in my main system.  Just a heads up....these tubes are huge for a 6SN7!  They are beautiful but in my LS100 I had to cut holes in the top for them to fit....no big deal as I had already cut a whole in it to fit the Mullard GZ-37 Fat Bottle rectifier I am running.  In any case, this Chinese  WE6SN7 PLUS is an incredible tube!

In the past I wouldn't give you a nickel for any Chinese tube but the recent new Dawning Series tubes out of Shuguang are excellent.  I recently bought a Don Sachs all in preamp and he suggested them and they are lush sounding.  WE6SN7 PLUS.

@ozzy62. Your assessment of the deHavilland is correct that why it requires the changes I mentioned above. Just adding audio note resistors will change all that around $60 for the two non-magnetic or over $100 for the silver versions.  Add some nicicons and v-caps and almost there. Change out that junk of a transformer and you are there.   Of all the 6sn7 tubes the CBS 6sn7 sounded the best for $15.   Happy listening

The word musical means different things to different people. It’s just word. There is a very large audiophile vocabulary for sound which oft goes unused. Anyway, you can’t go wrong with Sylvania NOS of almost any type, Chrome Domes all the way up to ‘52 Badboys. Then, more progress can be yours for the cost of Herbies tube dampers. They’re gold, Jerry, gold! All tubes are microphonic, even ones that claim ultra low microphonic. And two dampers are better than one, one of the glass at the level of the getter the other on the base. 🤗 Yes, I know what you’re thinking, “but don’t two dampers cost more than the tube itself?”

I would look for a Rogue Audio Magnum 99 pre and then you can roll all the 6SN7's you like. I tried them all and some of the variants are just better. I went from the 6SN7 to the 6F8G's and then to the 6J5GT's which will require and adapter, these are by far the most linear of all....

One more vote here for the Don Sachs preamp. You won't regret it musically, and it is perfectly in your price range. Also very easy access for rolling tubes.

You must try 2c22 (7193) tubes with adapter. You need two for one 6sn7. Imho the best solution for 6sn7 preamplifiers.

I sold my AI L3.
I want a preamp that makes everything sound better not just be invisible.
Is this unreasonable? 

From what I am hearing its down to three choices:

-New Supratek Chardonnay $2-$2,500
-New or used deHavilland Ultra $2,500 + or -.
-Used Audio Note M2 $2,500 or so.

Thank you all so much for sharing your experiences
with the gear I need to decide on.

Well, the Don Sachs Model 2 has evolved quite a bit from only a year ago. It has better caps, a full wave rectifier (you can hear the difference...as it ships with a half wave rectifier too), sealed input relays, better tubes, new housing/casing. And you can have it made-to-order...to match the input impedance of whatever amp you’re feeding. 

Yeah @atmasphere, for pre-amp applications, Roger had a hard-on for the 6DJ8 (used in his RM-5 and the Audible Illusions Modulus 2 & 3). He was a man of "firm" opinions. ;-)

KenRad VT231 black glass....Sylvania 6SN7W....my two all time favorites

Recently purchased a Supratek Chardonnay and told Mick just put in the best of everything, about $3500. KenRads, Psvane, GE, Sylvanias, Bad Boys and Chrome Domes, Shuguang, and a couple of others. Psvane CV181 TII won the day. Best bass combined with balanced musically. How do I know? I now need a rumble filter. Best bass I've ever had. 
And BTW, I absolutely love the preamp, it replaced a much more expensive unit.

I only know of one company who only make a line stage and line stage with phono and have been perfecting it for decades: Audible Illusions. A preamp company. And the only preamp that has consistency received TAS Editor’s Choice award saying “one of the best at any price”. A SET design using only one tube per channel, it is uniquely transparent and musical with no particular sound of its own. Separate power supply. A used L3A that is fully factory refurbished with new tubes and upgrades can be found used for around $2500. Used is preferred for 95% of new that is now $5200.
But to be compared to an $80k preamp is not only valid but justified.
Not that I have owned such a preamp but I have owned a $20k Rowland and a DeHaviland and others and would new never own other than an AI.

I've owned the Don Sachs model 2 and DeHavilland Ultraverve III and compared side-by-side. I sold the Don Sachs. 

I love my Audio Note linestage. It’s a M2 Special, which I’m told was a custom order from the factory.
A used M2 would cost $3000 or less. Audio Note products are built to last a lifetime with regular maintenance and upgrades. Mine is 15 years old and sounds wonderful. It’s dynamic with a wide, deep soundstage, and presents a transparent sense of realism. Not tubey, not clinical.
6SN7GT gain stage with tube rectification and regulation.