How is this different from the frequent situation in audio where manufacturer X comes out with a v.2/mkII of their previous product, with a whole new wave of adverts extolling all the improvements they've made over the original? How do those who purchased the original feel at that point? Duped? Comforted by the fact that manufacturers always exaggerate the differences between v. 1 and v. 2? Or?
Exceptions: when v. 1 is entirely ungradable to v. 2; when manufacturer X offers 100% trade-in value. These, it must be said, are pretty rare.
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@grsz06
A. I'm not a naysayer. I like Morrow cables.
B. The issue is with a part of the offer that applies to customers like me.
C. The 'offer' part that applies is dead in the water and doesn't merit consideration, again for me. In other words, I don't come out ahead on it. In fact, I'd be taking a significant loss.
What's amazing (and sad) is not being asked by someone who has never purchased a Morrow product 'WHY' two members who are customers don't find the 'offer' attractive or relevant to them.
Look, Morrow can do whatever they please in terms of how they structure their offers. I'm completely fine with that.
What I'm not fine with is Morrow themselves saying it's a generous offer when it clearly isn't and I'm much better off not taking it.
Morrow clearly knows what they are doing and they clearly know who this offer isn't good for. To say and imply otherwise is both foolish and disingenuous.
I am also not fine with a member, who hasn't purchased a Morrow product nor been their customer (presumably), waxing poetic about this being a generous offer when two actual customers are disagreeing with that.
The decision tree is extremely simple. Very uni directional, as @geoffkait is fond of pointing out. We're talking cables, right? : )
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I have 6 meter sp4 (2016) and never heard a difference compared to my typical air free copper speaker cables. Then again I find it really hard to tell compare by not being able to a/b the cables while listening. I also bought a pair of MA1 interconnects that I threw in a smaller second system I have. The MA1's are a joke! Two strands inside!! Even the cheapest of cords are thicker….Two strands of anything is BS! To get what I want in Morrow's latest and greatest I have to spend $450!! Yea that's with 60% off and that is Morrow's thanks to me for buying his cables…No thanks. |
grsz06, I, too, am a fan boy of Morrow Audio cables. Morrow is offering EVERYONE 60 % off to try their new cables. As an existing owner ( since their beginning, actually ), how does this make me " special " ? It doesn't. How does this make my existing cables worth a good amount in resale ? It doesn't. To each his own bud. Enjoy ! MrD.
That wasn't what my questions asked? |
@grsz06, I, too, am a fan boy of Morrow Audio cables. Morrow is offering EVERYONE 60 % off to try their new cables. As an existing owner ( since their beginning, actually ), how does this make me " special " ? It doesn't. How does this make my existing cables worth a good amount in resale ? It doesn't. To each his own bud. Enjoy ! MrD. |
I have two questions for the nay sayers. What other cable manufacturer offers, as an everyday item a discount to upgrade to their next level of cables and to have a 60 trial period to make sure you're happy with them before you trade in your old ones?
What other cable manufacturer
offers you a discount on an improved design and gives you a 60 day trial period and if you're not happy, return them and get a full refund?
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Most cable manufacturers are continually changing or evolving their designs. Why wouldn’t they? The big question is does Morrow believe in wire directionality and cryo. |
I will ask this question. When did Mike Morrow start this " redesign " ? His website indicates the newly designed cables were available as of June of this year, so anyone ordering since this time has the new design. How long does a cable manufacturer need to create an almost 180 ( maybe 360 ) degree design change before actual manufacture ? If I bought MA5s in May of 2017 ( which I did ), was he already in the process of the change ? It reminds me of my experience with my purchase of a new Audio Research SP 6 preamp many years ago, when shortly after, a new and improved version came out ( a, b, c). Financially, the offer Morrow is offering to someone like me does not make sense ( yes, " it is not generous, it is actually penalizing " ). All of the buyers ( of the original designs ) that made Morrow Audio successful should feel the way I do, but, to each his own. I wish Morrow Audio continued success, but as I said above, I am out. Enjoy ! MrD. |
That's some interpretation on your part.
Since tecknic doesn't own Morrow cables, I believe it's safe to assume he hasn't done business with them. Perhaps he has a side hobby of analyzing pricing structures that he hasn't shared.
Apparently, you don't have a good understanding of how their pricing works, either.
Let me be more direct. Morrow's offer is not generous. It's actually penalizing. Happy?
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@mrdecibel is correct in his assessment and I concur. The offer doesn't compute financially or offer an upside for a customer (like me). It may work for some...it doesn't for me.
I'm sure Mike Morrow is quaking in his boots. That aside, why belabor this point - ? If you don't like the offer, don't do it. And do you really think @technik doesn't grasp Morrow's pricing structure and offers? They are not particularly difficult to understand. |
@tecknik I encourage you to get a better feel for Morrow's pricing structure and offers.
@mrdecibel is correct in his assessment and I concur. The offer doesn't compute financially or offer an upside for a customer (like me). It may work for some...it doesn't for me. |
I haven't tried Morrow cables but Id say he's handled himself very well in this forum along with his very generous offer of 60% off for customers trading up to the new models.
Well done Morrow, wish you all the best. |
Mr Morrow is building up what he’s missing, reputation. Once he gets that, his cables cost will go beyond what you and I can afford.
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R&D, marketing, parts, labor, equipments, employees, patents and rent will add up but $1,000, $5,000, and even $10,000 for a pair of cable or a power cord? C’mon man.
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It's amazing how someone's new best thing, was someone else's new best thing a decade ago, only now instead of $300.00 it's $3,000.00...Jim
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Keeping it real - I am, of course, talking about above average use with standard 120V or 240V household use, not for a mega volt, industrial complex.
I do believe there are differences in cables and cords, not always for the better...Jim
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I was a master machinist and field tech for one of the worlds largest electronic, manufacturing/supply corporations, who sold high grade electronics (everything from giant electrical transformers, to switching gear, to industrial grade outlets, cables and connectors). if there is some high tech, magical new science about outlets, switchers, cables and connectors that we are unaware of - please do tell.
I can tell you for a fact the best outlets, cables and connectors do not cost $10,000.00 - believe what you want...Jim
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@maxima95 Very interesting - I have a friend that is the head purchasing agent for our area's largest medical center. I'll ask if they use that, or anything similar expensive power conditioning units, along with $3,000.00 power cords in their facility - care to make a bet...Jim
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jhills / Apparently science hasn't caught up to our little hobby yet. In my system, everything you mention above makes a difference. Those are the facts. |
@ boxer12 It doesn't matter! It's all the same science. Regardless of the application. An outlet does one thing - it makes a connection to transfer current from a source to a device "nothing else" the only thing that matters is conductivity, a good connection and quality parts and assembly, in an AC - 120V outlet - the cost is about $20.00, not $500.00. The same applies to cords and cables. I've been into audio for about 40 years and have listened to about every cord, cable and outlet out there - some things are fact and others are total BS...Jim
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"I might also add that very sophisticated and expensive hospital machines do not have $3,000.00 power cords and a premium hospital grade 120V receptacle costs about $20.00 not $500.00..... " https://shunyata.com/?s=hospital |
"I might also add that very sophisticated and expensive hospital machines do not have $3,000.00 power cords and a premium hospital grade 120V receptacle"
I doubt the user cares about how it sounds though, unless of course it's an audiophile in that hospital bed. |
I might also add that very sophisticated and expensive hospital machines do not have $3,000.00 power cords and a premium hospital grade 120V receptacle costs about $20.00 not $500.00.....Just sayn......Jim
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Not one single industry, aside from elite members of the audiophile clan, use, or would use $10,000.00 pr Meter cables. Not the military, not performers on stage, not the recording industry; in fact just about everything is going wireless or headed that way. Speaker cables and IC cables costing thousands of dollars is becoming absurd...Jim
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"""" I am blown away that Morrow is walking away from their silver coated
copper cables which he said were the best. Now he states the all his
all copper cables are better. """"""
Its not simply all copper. Morrow is now using wires that are all individually "insulated!" That's the key! No more signal hopping from strand to strand when the signal is being sent through the cable. Its why litz wire avoids that distortion that Morrow has finally caught onto. It makes for a quieter cable without the strand interaction noise that all standard wires cause. I have been using litz since the 80's and know what Morrow is finally admitting to. Its our gain. Silver makes things too bright in certain systems. Copper is as neutral as one can find.
Here is from their page. Note how the individually insulated wire is now mentioned...
2. More Runs of Wire
We have added more runs of wire
to each cable model. For instance, the MA1 interconnects, which
previously had 2 runs of wire per channel, now has 8 runs of
*individually insulated wires* per channel. The Anniversary speaker
cables, which previously had 288 runs per channel, now have 1728 runs of
* individually insulated wires* per channel! This provides amazing
improvements in all areas of the sound: air, soundstage, musicality,
realism, harmonic structure, etc
Get rid of the strand hopping effect and you'll be surprised how noise is gone! Its the type of thing you hear when its gone.
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@grsz06 +1 from me. Similar experiences from Mike and team. Above and beyond on multiple occasions. |
"There’s a lot of marketing BS here.
Mr. Morrow is a businessman first and foremost" I’ve used Mike’s cables for years. I’ve talked to him over the phone on a few occasions and he was very helpful and he also went so far as to issue me a credit for something that really did not concern his cables or his company at all. Let’s just say it was a gesture he did not have to make. There are very few people that would do that.
I think the BS is a few posts above!
Mr. Morrow is a fine first class businessman and his actions prove it. Can’t wait for my new SP6s. |
We looked at the best discount that we could offer for those who have the old design, including a free swap for those within the return period, which we have even gone past a little to accommodate.
For the others, we feel that 60% off as well as a 60 day return so that one can try them against the old design with no risk is more than generous. |
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Unless Morrow Audio can make me a great deal on trades ( I have a number of their cables ), I'm out ! Enjoy ! MrD. |
My SP4’s arrived the other day. Sound great against the 10awg BJC (Belden I think) cable.
i can’t comment on the old formula but these seem to not have the rollercoaster ride my interconnects has during the break in.
I absoutely love these. My Focals can get trashy with loud splashy music and though the highs are very clear I get way less trashyness than the BJC’s. I never had a thought about upgrading the MA4’s in my system so far but the SP4’s make me excited at the thought of moving to SP6’s. Crazy. |
@morrowaudio "We no longer use silver coated copper wire, only solid copper wire for each individual SSI strand. The presentation is now smoother and more musical."
I’ve used copper, silver, silver plated copper, copper clad aluminum, carbon, and other materials, and ended up in the same place you arrived. I’ve heard very good things about your cable, Mike, and wish you the best with the new product lineup going forth
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In response to fsonicsmith We use high quality connectors. We provide a secure mechanical connection of the wire first to the connector, then solder it for a tight electrical fit. The details and how we do that are proprietary. As to your statement, "but his pursuit of ultra high priced cabling is laughable", here is what one of our customers said about our Elite interconnects at $2995.00 per 1 meter pair... "First I want to say that your new cable is replacing a (brand omitted) This cable was very expensive at $10,000/meter. They have a very balanced sound with bass detail that I had never experienced before. After the first recordings I listened to; I knew that the (brand omitted) were no longer required. The Morrow cables surpassed them in every way with much greater transparency. Details from top to bottom where much greater and easy to recognize. Vocals in particular seemed to have greater annunciation. Song lyrics were significantly more understandable and soulful. Dynamics overall were greater and faster. In conclusion I find the Morrow Audio cables to be my new reference. They are well made and easy to install. The connectors are all high quality and are quite attractive." Edward M
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US Navy communications/electronics requirements in some cases are far more stringent than audiophile requirements in terms on noise and distortion, i.e., signal to noise plus distortion ratio.
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The US Navy uses Teflon silver coated copper so it probably can’t be too bad. I’ve used it. It sounds good.
Right? Especially with all the Krell and B&W Nautilus speakers they have running around those aircraft carriers and F-15s. Come on! :) Suitability for the Navy doesn't make them necessarily suitable for audio. But I have to admit, those cables are pretty sexy when you can find them on e-bay. |
The US Navy uses Teflon silver coated copper so it probably can’t be too bad. I’ve used it. It sounds good. |
I was led to believe silver coated copper was better than all copper. |
There's a lot of marketing BS here.
Mr. Morrow is a businessman first and foremost.
"SSI Technology" is a misnomer. There is little or nothing in the way of NEW technology here.
True craftsmen of fine audio cable manufacture their own wire or at least have theirs manufactured custom for them from the finest sources. Stranding and dielectric and termination procedures are critical. Mr. Morrow never talks about his termination methods. Are they simply hand soldered? With what? The finest wire and stranding and dielectric in the universe won't deliver the goods without the finest in termination technology. Cardas with super-high pressure crimping is one of those truly effective termination techniques.
At the end of the day Morrow makes high value cables at the lower end of his product spectrum but his pursuit of ultra high priced cabling is laughable. Caveat emptor. |
I thought I would post this to help clear up any questions. Note that we still use our SSI Technology, each wire strand is still individually insulated from the others. You can see the full design change page at: http://morrowaudio.com/announcement Our SSI Technology here: http://morrowaudio.com/about-us/ssi-technology Reviews here: http://morrowaudio.com/reviews Improvements Made to the Design: 1. Faster Production Time
Due to improved manufacturing processes, the time for orders will be much faster. Since making the public announcement about the new design, we expect a large amount of orders. Please check the time for orders page for an accurate order time during this period. 2. More Runs of Wire
We have added more runs of wire to each cable model. For instance, the MA1 interconnects, which previously had 2 runs of wire per channel, now has 8 runs of individually insulated wires per channel. The Anniversary speaker cables, which previously had 288 runs per channel, now have 1728 runs of individually insulated wires per channel! This provides amazing improvements in all areas of the sound: air, soundstage, musicality, realism, harmonic structure, etc. See Old & New Wire Counts 3. Progressive Smaller Gauge Individual Wires
As you move up the line, the gauge of the individual wires in the cable structure reduces. Smaller gauge individual wires result in less skin effect distortions. 4. Larger Total Gauge
The total combined wire gauge has increased for many models, providing lower impedance and improved signal transfer. 5. Improved Dielectric
We have greatly improved the dielectric (wire insulation) in the design by introducing cotton. Cotton has the lowest reflectivity of all dielectrics which reduces the "smearing" distortion found in others. 6. Lower Noise Floor
Our new manufacturing process insures a tighter, more uniform, internal wire weaving. The cables are quieter, rejecting more RFI than before. You hear deeper into the music, subtleties before unheard now come through with profound realism. 7. Solid Copper Instead of Silver Coated Copper
We no longer use silver coated copper wire, only solid copper wire for each individual SSI strand. The presentation is now smoother and more musical. You will re-discover recording after recording, hearing things you never heard before. Mike Morrow |
@maxima95
Bingo. I've had a similar question. The runs in all the various Morrow offerings ARE said to be individually isolated. How many runs does it take to become "Litz" or is there more to it than number of strands? e.g., packing density & geometry??
@mazian
I have a few MA3 & MA4 interconnects with ETI bullet plugs as well as a pair of SP4 speaker cables. All original design. The system changed and my "hearing preferences" too. The Morrow wire got replaced. Of particular note, Cardas' all copper Parsec speaker cable is sounding very very good. While I know you can ALWAYS find something "better", am happy to report a complete lack of motivation for engaging in that search. Glad the new design Morrow speaker cable is working for you. Maybe one of these days I'll get the urge to try some. |
ghosthouse
In addition to the issues you bring up, there is another I have been wondering about.
If you look at the
speaker cable
old and new wire count for one channel (i.e. 1152, 1728 and so on), at what point would one thousand + solid core wires become a stranded wire - unless it is litz?
The above aside, it would be good to hear how the newer version sounds. |
I've got the new SP4 speaker cables and love them. Don't know what the old SP4s sounded like but instead of just talking about it why not try them. If you don't like what you hear get a full refund. |
@fivechannelguy (and for @addyson815 ) -
That's one of the things got me scratching my head; i.e., the move away from silver coated copper which I always thought was a key contributor to MA cable's "sound". I'm also wondering about the quality of copper being used, not to mention economic drivers related to the re-design.
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Copper typically sounds better than a coated version especially if the silver is electro-plated/coated onto the copper which is inferior verses combining both materials in the melting process; a much costly process but would yield a better sounding product.
Wig
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I am blown away that Morrow is walking away from their silver coated copper cables which he said were the best. Now he states the all his all copper cables are better.
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I owned the Morrow Grand Reference Elite speaker cables and they sounded good until I got the Cerious Technology’s Graphene Extreme. The CT cables sounded far better to my ears than the Morrow. I have since moved up to the CT Matrix. One caveat is I have not heard Morrow’s latest offerings. |
Ag coated copper for whatever reason takes time to break in, and then sounds just as good as pure copper. :)
I'd be curious to know if after breaking in you find trading them in worthwhile.
Pure silver on the other hand is the most neutral and uncolored cables I have ever used, which has pluses and minuses. The minus, if you are using your cables for warmth or better imaging, they will not deliver at all. |
