Mono Blocks on a Budget, is it possible?

As a poster mentioned earlier---  Emotiva's are not half bad.   I have a pair of XPA 100's  of which I think are out of production.  The pair cost me 600 if I recall brand new.    For perspective -- I also run at times a Pass XA30.5 among others .   They are very quiet and I actually bought them awhile back to pump up the   watts a bit because Roger Sanders insisted I needed more oomph for my Martin Logans of which I am not using at this time.  Matter of fact since I moved  3 weeks ago I have yet to set up a system and have been listening to FM over the internet via  a Grace internet radio.  yikes.    This public confession will hopefully help me get it together.   

I definitely think that in the linear power supply "world" this has more merit than in the switch mode power supply "world" as is typical of class d amps such as ICE and Hypex. 

If you share a power supply there is increased capacity for crosstalk..

The bigger problem with the switch mode power supplies (hence the moniker SMPSXXXX for Hypex versions) is the switching itself which introduces a different kind of distortion - or has the potential to anyway - to the audio signal. 

In any case, I also read that Stereophile was no longer doing test bench measurements - how lame is that - I'd be interested in other opinions on so-called cross talk in a configuration such as a Hypex SMPS 3Ka400/700 with three channels of switch mode power delivered on a single "board" - you'd think that they've thought about the crosstalk potential and engineered it out - as there is only one AC  mains input (set of faston tabs).  But on linear circuits we're in agreement. 

+1 for Odyssey. Haven’t heard anything in that price range that can match ‘em. The quality and care that goes into them is equal to some very expensive gear.

I will vote also for Odyssey mono blocks. He was at Axpona this year and his gear rates with the best. Magico uses his amps to voice their speakers! 

I will keep posting as I listen more but as of right now I am impressed with the Crown XLS 1502s.  Almost my entire front end of my system is brand new right now, though.  The reviews of the amps say they need at least 100 hours to break in and I am sure the Saga will keep getting better.  Tubes take a long time to settle in?  

As it is, it is all slightly harsh, but really impressive most of the time.  I have it set up vertically bi-amped right now, and I can try bridged later.

The Vidar gets here tomorrow, so I will definitely have an opinion on it as soon as I feel it gets settled in a little bit.

I like it all enough that I went ahead and ordered four 3 foot Anticables.  If I don’t wind up with the Crown amps or a pair of Vidar, I am pretty sure I will have a pair of amps driving the system.

Has anybody tried the Burson Timekeepers?
A lot of watts for your money
In stereo just 80w
But buy two and bridge them and you have 240w at 8 ohms
At just 900 each?
Free shipping?
Full warranty?
Darn good deal
Seriously interested in using a pair for a third system if anybody has used them please speak up

There is a pair of recently upgraded Odyssey Khartago Extreme Monoblocks for sale on Audio Circle for $1200.  A hard deal to pass up if you have to have Monos. 

I have 2 Burson Timekeepers bridged in Mono. Matched with the Dynaudio Special 40 speakers they are beautiful. Clean, pure & transparent. Read the reviews, they are not exaggerating in their praise. Burson is known for their desire to simplify the signal path, i.e., fewer components equals truer sound. 

P.S.: I use the Bursons in a 3rd system. My main uses a 1988 Sumo Andromeda with Martin Logan electrostatics, while my studio system has a Melody integrated (NOS tubes) hooked to highly modified Klipsch RF-7s (Audience Crossovers by Dean). I listen to the Burson system more than the other two.

Thank you DHawks3001
At that price it might be hard not to want to try a pair

I love my Emerald Physics 100.2SEs. I did upgrade he fuse which was huge. I think most of the ones on the used market do not have it, so they don't know how good these class D amps are. Also my system is fully balanced

you can likely find a pair for ~ $1500

I'd have thought the PS Audio Stellar M700's would be an obvious recommendation.

I definitely think that in the linear power supply "world" this has more merit than in the switch mode power supply "world" as is typical of class d amps such as ICE and Hypex.

The problem is I have seen very little data on this.

Hypex as well as ICE devices may or may not share a power supply. Not only is the risk of possible channel to channel crosstalk increased, but perhaps other noise going from one amp to another is also more possible. I believe I have seen some data suggesting that due to the amplifier switching being rather RF like, it was possible for one Class D amp to affect another if placed too closely together. 

However, again, I lack data so I am unable to make any sort of determination. :)

One other trait about monoblocks: You can make your speaker cables super short.

But honestly, I think overall the point that money is best saved and spent on other things has a lot of merit. I happen to have gotten a super sweet deal on my ICEpower modules, so spent way too little even as monoblocks. :) 

Best,

E

xero, the problems you are describing may have to do with your speakers, are they 4 ohms and with 94 db sensitivity?  That's a bad combo for many monoblocks if they aren't true monoblock amplifiers.  Or do you have some other Legacy model that isn't 4 ohms?

The other thing is the Nad C356BEE.  I owned that model, and I've also owned the 375 and two 326.  These definitely are a budget design that all have limitations and compromises.  The 356 sound was inferior to the 326 when comparing dynamics and the "in the room" experience.  

I paired the 375 with some simple 4 ohm speakers and the result was puzzling to say the least with the Totem Rainmakers.

Xero, the two amps you’ve used are 80 and 400 Watts. Question: what was wrong with the 80 watts that you didn’t like? 

Temple Audio monoblocks - far from expensive and highly musical. 
Their sound is fast and dynamic, powerful and rich offering different layers and a big soundstage. 
It's important to pair it with a good preamp because of gain and tone/neutrality. I have my monoblocks connected to a McIntosh C712 preamplifier, feeding a pair of Zu Audio Omen Def speaks. The overall performance is fantastic!
Temple Audio is a relatively small company from Manchester but they design and make their own proprietary modules and all the metal works for the enclosures. That way I was able to customize my amplifiers and power supplies with some interesting finishing combinations and personal engravings. 
For more power (and money) there are many other options. One that I also considered was Ghent Audio. 

213runnin - no you have it right they are 4ohm. I actually did like the 356, a lot cleaner than I was expecting and had decent power so I was relatively happy with them. They were definitely a lot cleaner than my class AB Vidars which is strange (maybe it isn’t, maybe class AB is more noisy...)

jeburgess - well that is a good question. There were 2 things that made me get rid of the 356. It is an integrated with only 80 Watts so in the pursuit of improving my system and the sound I thought moving from an integrated to a dedicated amp would be better. And heck, in that case moving from an amp to a pair of monos is even better still right? I learned that is not necessarily true. The second reason is I’m getting my younger cousin into the hobby and when he picked up a pair of Elac B6s as his first pair of speakers I sold him the 356 very cheap so he can have a good amp and a good sound.

Ron 1319 - please keep us posted, I’m so curious to hear if you have the same issues with the Vidars as I did. 

I have to agree with the above posts suggesting that a good stereo amp would be more effective for your dollars than monoblocks.  And, to introduce a new thought, I've lately come to the view that better wires are the most cost effective buy in improving a system.  That being said, I'm not sure if this principle applies across all system dollar levels.
Jim Heckman

For anyone who read my post above about comparing the Crown 1502's to the Schiit Vidar in my system, it's not even close.  It's actually surprising how much better the Vidar sounds. 

Now, that said, the configuration that I've found that sounds the most fun is to bridge the Crown amps for the low end on each side and run the Vidar amp to the upper end.  That way I get everything that's great about the Vidar amp with the basically unlimited power of the Crown amps for the bass.

If I listen to Erykah Badu with just the Vidar powering both speakers (with a jumper,) the low end isn't involving enough to really be fun.  I decided to try the Crown amps bridged and this is the fun I'm looking for.  As a bonus, I get level control for the bottom end through the amps.  

Is this the most high end configuration possible for these speakers?  No way.  But it's the most fun with what I have here in front of me.  The only other thing I want to try is driving the bass with the Yamaha M-85 I was using, but I don't actually have speaker wires to try that right now.  I have 3' Transparent The Wall speaker wires that I was using in my bedroom system (40" TV and CDM2's on my dresser.)  

I bought a bunch of Rockwool Safe N Sound on sale yesterday at Home Depot for $14/bag.  I'm going to make a bunch of sound absorption in the next week or so and see if that improves things further. 

I need to write to Anticable and see if I can modify my speaker cable order still or if it's too late.  I guess if they offer a trial/return policy then I can return them before they ship them.  I'm still not 100% sure what the best cable configuration is.  I was most surprised that I seem to prefer my Straghtwire interconnects to the Tranparent Music Link Plus for the high end.

I think my conclusion for the OP, as it pertains to this thread, is that it's way more complicated than someone in a forum on the Internet being able to just say "do this."  Maybe you'd love the Pass Labs recommended above in mono-block form, or maybe a couple of Crown amps like I have ($350/each) bridged for the bottom end would work for you, too, and leave you $2200 for a very sweet amp for the top.  My friend in college had Legacy speakers.  I'm sure they could have used a lot of power.

Thanks ron1319 for the feedback that is very interesting. I did a quick listening session with the Vidars yesterday to remind myself of how I felt. I do like the amps to be honest especially in the bass region but I can’t help but hear that buzz when I first turn them on and think “surely a quieter background would make these things sound better”. I’m in love with the idea of Pass Labs mono blocks but they are so expensive, I just don’t think I’ll be able to justify dropping $4-6K on them used unfortunately... I agree that it is more complicated then just listening to some like-minded folks on a forum. I think there are a lot more options to think about now with everyone’s recommendations which makes it harder, actually, because there is more that needs to be listened to lol. 

I like my legacys but but in a couple years I might move to the new Magico A3 (if I can get myself to spend that much... we will see). 

Sometimes I think appreciating what we each have as a system is underrated and not as appreciated as it should be, speaking for myself at least.

please let me know what you think of Saga. I like Freya and am running fully balanced, the unit has made me appreciate tubes a great deal especially on the pre-amp side of things.

I've changed too many things at once to have a good opinion of the Saga.  I wish I had something like a Levinson or a Classe pre amp lying around to compare.  

To be honest, I have a Benq W1070 in this room and my computer running and so my ambient noise is pretty loud.  Plus I usually have to set my HVAC to "fan on" in order to keep this room from overheating.  My phone dB meter says ~60db ambient.  I have considered trying to find a way to isolate the noise from my computer while not overheating it, plus try to find a way to reduce the noise from my HVAC and projector.  I could probably figure out how to do that.

I just put my head right in front of the speakers to try to hear what comes out of them with nothing playing through them.  I don't get a hiss, but I do have audible USB noise.  I can't hear it in my listening position, but it's really obvious up close.  I didn't realize how much came through my Meridian Explorer.  I have to consider whether a Schiit Wyrd or a different DAC would be a better solution to that problem.

I've been catching up on Mr Robot and it is amazing how good these sound for TV.

Alright, I turned off my noisy projector and my phone says 47-52 db ambient noise with the HVAC off.  My phone doesn't seem to pick up the HVAC noise, but I can hear it when it's on.  If I put my head right in front of the speaker and turn the Vidar off and back on again, I can hear ever so slight of a hiss coming from the mid driver.  I would say relatively it's maybe 1/2 as loud as the hiss coming from the woofer which is being driven by the Crown amps.  So I have a little bit of noise coming from both amps.

I can't hear it from my listening position over the ~50db ambient noise.  

This does really make me want to build something to isolate my HVAC and projector noise from my listening position.  I can design that.  I might need to add a little quiet computer fan to be sure the projector is venting heat.  I suppose I should cut a hole in the ceiling and put a tube up through the insulation and vent the heat into the attic.  My only concern would be if it's 150 degrees in the attic in the summer and the fan is off and I let a lot of heat into the room.  I have to consider that more.  But it'd be an interesting and inexpensive experiment.

I do have two dedicated circuits in this room so my power comes straight from the breaker box and isn't feeding anything but my computer, my monitor, my projector and my sound system.  I suppose I could improve that my putting the projector and computer on one circuit and the entire sound system on the other.

I have a Furman DJ "power conditioner" that I basically use as a plug strip and I also have  "POWERVAR" power conditioner that I got on eBay maybe 10 years ago or so.  I don't know if it's good or bad but it was like $40 used.  I can experiment with those things a bit more.

In conclusion, I can't hear the noise from the Vidar in my room while in my listening position.

Maybe you should go to Guitar Center and buy a couple of these Crown amps and run your bass off of them.  They had a 15% restocking fee for up to 45 days.  The difference for me between running the entire speaker off of the Vidar (in stereo mode) and just running the top end was dramatic.  We're not talking 10-15% different, we're talking the difference between a serious high end system and one that was kind of mediocre.  

But there is a reason that the Stereophile review for these speakers says they had to bi-amp them with a pair of Levinson 335's to get them to sound good.  Would if I could.

Ok that answers some questions. I can’t hear anything from my listening position and I’m using an aurender with a SSD so computer noise is very minimal if present at all. If I have nothing on except the Vidars and I run my ears by the speakers I hear very little at the top end but the mid range and subs are humming. They are low and only audible within maybe 3 feet from the speakers but they are definitely producing sound. They amps are on a dedicated circuit - nothing on there with them at all. It was much worse before I did that but it’s still an issue. No power conditioners from my amps, just a surge protector plugged into the wall. This is an improved setup compared to the NAD (which was plugged up through a noisier battery backup) and It was quieter in spite of that so I think it’s the Vidars not the power.

If you plug the Vidar into a single speaker with nothing plugged into it (not bi-amped, the Vidar driving the entire range of the speaker) and put your ears next to the drivers can you hear anything? 

I might need to try a single Vidar in stereo mode, less wattage (dropping the wattage for my setup from 700W to 200W) so less noise... maybe... just thinking out loud.

Why not bi-amp?  I don't have balanced outputs with the Saga so I can't try mine as a mono-block.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if it sounded better bi-amping, either vertical or horizontally. 

I'm just running Transparent The Wall wire right now to the bottom end and it sounds pretty good.  You could test the configuration with inexpensive wires.

the only monoblock amps worth building, would be a 300B or 2A3, and the answer is NO, it's not cheap. sure it would have a "budget"- and it would be a high one cost-wise.

I have a set of bell canto mono blocks for sale if you’re interested class D

+3 on the Crown XLS series 1502 or 2502,I have the Emotiva XPA-100's for the Frnt Speakers and an Outlaw M2200 for the Center.I had zero issues with the Crown XLS1500[Silver] but sold it to try something else.The price is really nice for the Wattage and they do handle 2 ohm loads!The Crown '02' series added Black as the color,you can turn off the front lights if you want and it has 2  choices for input voltage level
1.4v and 0.77? v for Home levels if you need it

• • 300 watts x 2 at 8 ohms
  • 525 watts x 2 at 4 ohms
  • 775 watts x 2 at 2 ohms
  • 1050 watts x 1 at 8 ohms in bridged mode
  • 1550 watts x 1 at 4 ohms in bridged mode

signal-to-noise ratio: 103 dB
I haven't had any of the Higher Cost Amp options mentioned so I really do not know what kind of Awesomeness level those might deliver.I'm a Budget Level Audiophile.I would buy some of those that were mentioned in a heartbeat if I had the Coin.I do watch The PS AUdio Youtube stuff that Paul M does and I can tell that I really like him so I would definetly buy some of his Amps if money would allow.

213runnin isthe only person that caught the OP is running the Vidars in mono into a 4 ohm load.  They are not designed for that (8 ohm or above when bridged), nor is there a need to.  Those speakers are rated 94db/w, so a single Vidar in stereo should be more than enough at 200 watts per channel into 4 ohms.   Even a 50 watt/channel amp should drive those to very high volumes.  

Have you tried to bi-amp your speakers vs running balanced?  I like that Freya has two sets of single ended outputs to run two left channels to a single Vidar and the same for the right channel.  

dubulup"Have you tried to bi-amp your speakers vs running balanced?  I like that Freya has two sets of single ended outputs to run two left channels to a single Vidar and the same for the right channel."

That is not what biamplification is you obviously do not know what you are talking about if you want to biamplify a stereo speaker system you will need four separate and independent channels of amplification such as two stereo amplifiers or four monobloc amplifiers what you are talking about here is biwiring which can be scientifically shown to have no advantage at all over conventional wiring in a Music Reproduction System.

Ummm.  He has two stereo amplifiers with 4 separate and independent channels, obviously you suck at reading comprehension.

his speakers are considered sensitive and don’t require the added power balanced offers...that’s one reason he could be disappointed in the humming.

dubulup"Ummm.  He has two stereo amplifiers with 4 separate and independent channels, obviously you suck at reading comprehension."

Ummmm ahhhh geee ummmmmmm well you don't understand audio you freakin' moron because to properly biamplify a Music Reproduction System you will need a crossover to achieve that and get the four independent channels of amplification that you seem to think that he has but doesn't so ummm geee uhhhhh you can figure that out now ummmmm ughhhhh ummmm

passive crossover will work in this case...active is better if you don’t have a budget

I just asked a question bud, you jumped on me...enjoy life

Check out Coda

I also had (have) a 356BEE, and replaced it with one Vidar and Freya +.  I'm selling the NAD.  In my case, I had no noise from the Vidars coming through the speakers, but a very slight hum when I put my ear within an inch or two of the amp.  I swapped the NAD and Freya/Vidar back and forth a few times on various tracks guided by notes taken while listening to the NAD - drum at x timestamp, cymbals at another timestamp, etc., and the Vidar made enough difference to earn its keep. 

Imaging was also much better with the Vidar, with sounds seeming to emanate from above the speaker at times, not from the speaker.  That really got my attention.  I wondered if the preamp was the difference so I powered the Vidar from NAD pre out and difference was same.  I replaced NAD with a B&K preamp and no change.  Freya tubes also took some of the 'ice pick' sharpness out of higher treble which was definitely appreciated. 

I cannot explain any of this.  All I know is that I spent a week going back and forth scribbling annotations to my track notes and I could not blame perceived difference on panacea.  I did not want the Schiit product so much as wanting to see what could better the NAD.  I was prepared to buy a used NAD C375BEE and save a few hundred dollars, but what I heard from the 356 told me I'd get more watts and not much else with the 375.

Speakers are Focal Aria 926, known to be a bit bright.  Freya smoothed that out, but bass control was in a different league, and that's the Vidar's doing.  

Another one to add to the list:......I make a dual mono 600 watt per channel (1200 into 4 ohm) stereo amp for $2000 using the latest Icepower IceEdge modules (2 mono modules per box and highly modified).  I sell these extremely tweaked amps with 30 day money back guarantee and will even pay the original shipping to you if you send it back.  I supply 8 ohm power resistors with the amp so you can burn the amp in all day and night.  Check out tweakaudio.com for more details.

If your loudspeakers are the original Legacy Classics...they are rated at 4 ohm and 92 db....which pretty much means that with 64 watts, you can easily produce 92 db 10' from the loudspeakers with plenty of headroom for peaks above 92 db.

I owned the Crown XLS 2000...plenty of power, decent low end...somewhat harsh on the top end.

I owned the Nuprime STA9....good low end....nice midrange....somewhat sibilant.

I owned the Parasound Halo A23...now replaced by the 23A...really good sounding amp...no real weaknesses

I now own the Digital Amplifier 2Cherry...dual mono, single chassis...think Halo A23 but with enhanced clarity that results in more realism, huge soundstage, and great detail.  The basic model is $2400 and probably closer to $2k during their summer sale...and 30 day home trial.  With 400W @ 4ohms and 800@ @ 2ohms....you will have more power than you will ever need...and the company is outstanding to deal with.

another vote for quicksilvers - for tube monoblocks - may be able to find a used pair of V4s in that range- I purchased a used pair of M60s 20 years ago and they are still going strong  

A little bit of a budget-buster, but so much better than the budget brands--treat yourself to a pair of Belles Aria monoblocks.

ricevs,
I’m with you all the way about how the best amp shouldn’t cost much. Maybe you can purchase the AVA monos, tell us how they really sound compared to your reference amps and your own product. Then do your tweaks on the AVA and tell us the result.  Better yet, go for the lower power AVA stereo, which at $2200 may sound as good as the monos within its power range, because it is the same circuit.  I wouldn’t spend $5000 for the monos when great class D using Bruno’s module for possibly less money is coming soon.

You're better off with a better stereo amp than lesser monoblox

Agree that monoblocks at this price point don’t make too much sense, unless maybe if you go used - even then it’s a tough ask. I used to have Legacy Signature III speakers. Hated them with a very dry sounding Sunfire Signature amp (the 600 Watts/ch one) - it simply lacked any soul to the music, which is what I imagine your problem with the Vidars might be (noise aside). Huge, HUGE improvement with a Parasound A21 and later JC-1 monoblocks. In the right room and with a great (vinyl) source, that was a rocking setup. Though in my system at the time, the JC-1’s weren’t THAT much better than the A21 (and at 3x the cost). Both Parasound amps had just a touch of sweetness that the Legacys needed, to go along with incredible power and dynamics. I’d extrapolate that a new A21+ would easily exceed your needs and expectations.

stringreen,
Totally agree that a SOTA stereo amp will beat monos with inferior technology for absolute performance.  Since ricevs is advocating for best sound per dollar, we are looking forward to stereo amps with Purifi modules.  The corresponding mono amps will probably be better, but is it worth spending double when another designer will implement the module in a better stereo design?  And what about more powerful modules sure to come from Purifi?  Get a stereo SOTA amp that is 90+% as good as the mono version for 50% of the price.

Some stereo amps are fully dual mono....separate power supplies for each channel.  The Nord stereo amps are dual mono....my stereo amps are dual mono.  In fact, I have an option to have two separate power cords on it so if you have a dedicated line for each channel you will get a little better sound.  I am sure there will be stereo amps with the Purifi modules that will be dual mono.  Mono amps do allow you do put the amps closer to the speakers....but other than that a stereo dual mono amp will sound the same.....assuming great separation of the channels inside the amp.

I just recently picked up a pair of Cary CAD 500 MB monos that sound great and provide 500/1,000 wpc into 8/4 ohms.  Another pair just sold for $2,500