90%++ of our usic, Especially classical music,, falls in the 500hz-say 2500hz range. Now I FIJNALLY!!!! Understand all the fuss and issues with a midwoofer/tweeter thing. Mid woofers are attempting to do 2 things, carry bass and carry 500hz-say 1500/2khz. Tweeters, those tiny lil 1/2 inch vc's are trying tp voice 1500/2khz thriugh 10khz/15khz Now i finally grasp whats going on here. with sens level at no more than 90db, most drivers are actually below 85dbm, regardless what the lab specs states. vs Wide bands These higher quality speakers , voice easily, with no stress and a perfect meshing on the 60hz-12khz, anda seamless gorgeous musical image. Witha TRUE REAL, Not hyped 92db sens. habds down the wide band 8 inch easily performs far superior to Wilson's mega money speaker line. I have no idea why the american audiophile will not accept the truth, the reality, of the wide band 8 inch speaker performance over the box Wilson.Vandersteen, Magnepan, Thiel speaker design. The chinese audiophile has long ago dumped the low sens multi driver design for the single 8 inch wide band design. There is not even 1 speaker with muti drivers that offer the least interest , now that i have made the wide band discovery.
Its really a no brainer Yet facts show the american audiophile ain't budging one bit towards the wide band speaker. I can give 3 reasons why the multi thing has failed And I can give 3 reasons to go wide band as speaker of choice
I can not find even 1 good reason to stay multi speaker.
Although I am using my wide band with Seas W 18's dual, and a tweeter. Still its really a single wide band speaker, not multi.
Many of you here have even yet to hear a new wide band. Why the resistance?
Midwoofer real main purpose if bass. Upper mids 800-1500 , there are issues here, with 90db less sens. Tweeters with a tiny 1/2 inch VC, isd not going to presenta deep, wide , rich soundstage, So both speakers have issues. The mid does havea larger VC, but with sens too low, the musical soundstage/presence suffers due to 90/less db sens. Here is where wide bands shine. 8 iinch has 10x's the VC vs a tweeter. And 2x's if not 3x's the sens vs a widwoofers less than 90 db sens. The soundstage comming from the Seas Excel W18E001 (worls finest midwoofers) is tiny vs the 8 inch wide bands, 60hz-1600hz The Millennium vc at 1/2 inch (worlds finest tweeter) 1500hz-12khz soundstage is miniscule vs the wide bands 1500hz-12khz.
Its really no contest/ The wide band has shot the boots off the top line Wilson;'s even before Wilson has made a draw. Hat too, Bammm, belt bluckle just shot off. Wilson's are running off with his pants down. All 3 shots off even before Wilson made a draw.
Wilson's can not compete with a high quality wide band.
Seas and scan Speak are not in the same league as a high quality wide band Someone please inform Troels Gravesen he is wasting his time monkeying with old dated techology.
Ohm Walsh Sound Cylinder: 8 inch driver that goes from 30 hz to 8000 hz! Plus it produces a coherent waveform that crosses over to an upward- angled dome tweeter for the last two octaves! These might be the BEST speakers in my collection!
Might be good to you, But have you heard Walsh next to a WBer? No The chinese audiophile and the american audiophile are at completely totally at odds with each other. USA audiophile multi box things vs Chinese audiophile: wide band only. The worlds best wide bands are designed and made in china. The USA has no high quality wide band labs. China gets the Gold, USA gets tin,,no wait,, aluminum foil. China also makes some of the worlds finest tube amps. China also makes some of the worlds finest tube CD players and Tube DAC's. USA get aluminum foil.
These are not cheap but are the starting point of a superb wideband system. I use these in my car for frequencies between 400 and 8,000 Hz and they sound amazing. Can easily be used in a home audio DIY speaker and crossover at 160Hz low end and tweeters optional. Lets the speakers below and above "breathe easy". https://store.12velectronics.com/products/Legatia-L3SE-Speaker-Set.html
Excellent speaker when housed and crossed correctly.. I was paying 61.00 each. I used 12 per side in a 10" X 88" X 12" deep 13/8" thick MDF cabinet and one G1 ribbon centered at 44".
If the guy wouldn't have offered a LOT of money, I might have kept them.. Now that 6.5" driver price has almost doubled and stays back ordered.. Someone found a little secret of mine. :-)
Still I'm a planar or ribbon guy.. Strathearns ribbons are tough to beat..
My DIY, fully horn loaded, triamplified speakers use AER BD3 8" wide band drivers to cover the range of 200Hz to 8kHz. The bass is provided by 25Hz quarter wave folded corner horns. The highs above 8kHz are played by a Fostex t900a bullet tweeters. A DEQX HDP4 preamp/DSP ties it all together. The 8" paper cone drivers really sing sweetly for the very large portion of the musical spectrum they cover, but horn bass and bullet super tweeters are the icing on the cake. I've never heard a wide range driver alone, Chinese or not, that played the frequency extremes in a realistic manner.
6.5" driver price has almost doubled and stays back ordered.. Someone found a little secret of mine. :-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I looked over the partsExtress 6. I do not think it holds up to either the Tang Band 2145 and DL VX8, in midrange 300hz-3khz. Bass and highs I am sure has. But lacks the super clean mids as in the TB2145/DLVX8. There are the 2 top WBers IMHO maybe beats AER's 5G models.
kingharold79 posts09-11-2021 11:12amMy DIY, fully horn loaded, triamplified speakers use AER BD3 8" wide band drivers to cover the range of 200Hz to 8kHz. The bass is provided by 25Hz quarter wave folded corner horns. The highs above 8kHz are played by a Fostex t900a bullet tweeters. A DEQX HDP4 preamp/DSP ties it all together. The 8" paper cone drivers really sing sweetly for the very large portion of the musical spectrum they cover, but horn bass and bullet super tweeters are the icing on the cake. I've never heard a wide range driver alone, Chinese or not, that played the frequency extremes in a realistic manner.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I did not care for Voxativ, they use a super thin Papyrus material in the cone, zero bass, crappy mids, no highs whatsoever. DB was not even close top their claim of 95db sens.
Now as for AER, I do not like what they are writing on their web site about their drivers,.. Smells too much of pure snakeoil. AER will not even say what the cone material is compoased. Dealing with WBers, cone material is EVERYTHING. TB2145, Bamboo fiber = perfect. Bass 100/Mids 100/Highs 100 DavidLouis VX8 Bamboo wood, perfection.Bass 100/Mids 100 Highs 95 These are the 2 WBers to beat out. AS I said previously, I have no interest in the german speakers, They are too expensive and how do I know they are superior to either Chinese WBers?? Might,/Might not. Not the least bit interested. What I have in the DavidLouis VX8 is near, if not, Perfection.
Now of course, I do emply the Seas W18E001's and have a super paper 3.5 inch tweeter, Both add some backup like emblishments. nothing more. I am about to swap out my favorite tweet, the Kasun Paper double magnet tweet for the DavidLouis pure Be/Nd(HUGE Nd magnet), after I get some cash. Seller says his Bd tweet will smash the Kasun paper tweeter. I believe him.
So like yeah, WBer as center piece, add any woofer your choice, add any tweeter your choice (I HATE all planar/ribbon garbage tweets) and you have the finest sounding music,,,,other than a big expenisve horn system,,of course, Horn systems are really a unique special speaker, but wayyyyy out my needs/wants/desires to listen to my classical muisc. I have no interest in any speaker , now that I finally figured out what I was after all these decades... I had to experiement and spend some cash to get what I have now. The Tang Band 2145 is almost a twin to the DavidLouisVX8, although they look /designed completely different. The Davidlouis looks very close to AER, if not actual clone. And as I say, IMHO may very well shootoff the boots of the AER. Before AER eve draws his gun. China beats germany. China, worlds finest musical speakers, 2nd to none.
These new high tech WBers sing like opera stars compared to your **dime a dozen* midwoofer/tweeter combo. None of Wilson's line can match your AER in the mids. Sure Wilson's are popular, big, lots of drivers, and you would think,, **surely the Wilson will beat any single wide band**, = Thought wrong There is no midwoofer/tweeter than can stand up to a high tech Wide Band in midrange., EXTENDED mids that is, all the way to 12kHz's. = 95%++ of the music. I am getting tight deep bass from the DavidLouis VX8. Perhaps 40hz roll off. which is equal to the Seas Excel speakers. I should recant my criticism of your AER's. I am basing my bashing of AER due to my recent experience of the other german lab, and thinking maybe the AER sound similar to the Voxativ.. If I can find out what the paper cone is composed of, I can get a idea how the AER sounds.. If it is anything like Vox's super thin papyrus paper = not going to like it. AER will not say anything on its site about the cone material. Thus I have my doubts it will beat the DavidLouisVX8 and Tang Band2145. There are a few things AER says on its site that leaves me tasting snakeoil. Another problem I have with AER is their drivers housed in these huge horn cabinets which are Ugly Heavy Expensive 3 HUGE NO-GO for my speaker choise. I built a cabinet from Tennessee Cedar cabinet, looks beautiful, although i speaker is 28 inches high, the other 30 inchs high. Measured once, cut 3 xs. :-(((, Not important, sounds fantastic, and is IMHO the finest musical image of any speaker in the midwoofer/tweeter category. That design has too many issues in the midrange thus rendering the music sounding like poop. Vandersteen, Thiel, Wilson's, A-Z all suffer this ailment, these liabilities, these ~~~~Handicaps~~~. You can have them. No thanks. Been there Done THAT.
AER allows a 14 day Trial testing of the purchase, 14 day return policy Vovativ = Absolutely no returns, for any reason.
Tang band, easy returns USA DavidLouis returns to china= not cheap, so basically you are stuck with the VX8. But guess what. Good news. Why would you wish to return a speaker you paid $550 for, when throughout your long hobby, you bought speakers in the $$$$$$, with a 50% resale value?? Why return a speaker that makes the most beautiful musical soundstage??
If Voxativ really believes their speaker is as great as so described on their web site,, why not take returns with FREE RETURN shipping?? Anyone?? I am refering to single drivers, not the cabinet models which are in the $$$$'s. Ayone? No, you can't find 1 reason why Voxativ would hold such a unreasonable policy. . Heck, at least give:: the buyer pays return ship + a 10% restock fee == is a honorable gentleman's handshake.
This questionable policy, should raise a red flag. No returns = they dont really believe in all the wonderful things they lay claim about their speaker.
Excellent speaker when housed and crossed correctly.. I was paying 61.00 each. I used 12 per side in a 10" X 88" X 12" deep 13/8" thick MDF cabinet and one G1 ribbon centered at 44".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Nice lil 6 WB (=Point Source= PS=WB=FR) at $61 They are $100 now, So @ $100 each
Best bet is the Parts Express Tang Band 2145/$250 pair. This TB is very close in mids to the DavidLouis VX8 @ $550/pair. I stayed with the DLVX8 and returned the TB2145.
12 PS 6 per channel is a heck of alot of sound. WOWWW Blows any Wilson towers away I am quite sure. The only thing is , how is the midrange in all fq's in the Dayton PS6??? All mid fq's in the TB2145 and DLVX8 are crystal clean, just gorgeous. Both easily blow away any Wislon tower speaker as far as midrange, which runs into the mega G's, as high as $950,000. I'll take a single TB2145 or DLVX8 over any Wilson.
Just the tax on the Wilson is wayyyyy more than a single TB or DL. And you get much superior mids in the wide bands, TB2145/DLVX8. No brainer.
mozartfan, what on god's green earth are you talking about? You have just spouted a series of opinions without any basis in reality, none. You like what you like because you like it. Wonderful. I like vanilla ice cream any other flavor a corruption of the art of ice cream manufacture. Breyer's should raise their prices.
See none of you here have not even a clue what I am saying. As none of you have even heard one of the new high tech wide bands. Chinese audiophiles are light years ahead of the USA audiophile. And guess what? Its part of your psyche makeup to stay hooked on old technology = midwoofer/tweeter thingy’s.
Good luck, ’You have no idea how much music you are missing out on.
China = wide bands The New High tech speaker USA = midwoofers/tweeters. The old tech speaker.
do the new wide bands have bass?? This is what we all want to know As we recall, the old models had flabby, soft, if any bass at all. Welll someone in china has figured out how to give up the bass. Here is one of the worst recordings, live Central Park 1973, Billy Cobham on percussion. If the sound is clean clear on this aweful sounding live cd, just think how incredibly musical this VX8 will sound with Diana Krall and Sophie Milman..
Lets see vid should have finished uploading....be right back..... No, 2 minutes + time for content checks.
What a pleasure hearing this 1973 cd, I mean Cohbam's drums just sound solid and tight from the VX wood cone.
Wide bands do have bass, all you need to 40hz. With the Seas W18E001's adding their emblishments, we have abundant bass.
I just wrote a 2nd time to seller , raise price to $900+&100 ship. He says his intention is not to make money, Only to get this driver out to the world from china. IOW he is more into helping folks listen to music like you've never heard it before. I still reemphaszied he needs to go to $900 as a more than fair price.= steal at 1G.
missioncoonery920 posts09-14-2021 3:36pmYou're having a conversation with your self...whats the point of this post?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Audiogon rules are, No snides, no insults. As long as I keep all things friendly and honest, the mods have no issues with my self chat. Just do whatever every one does here and ignore this topic. Thanks I believe I have found the most perfect speaker. Regardless if everyone is shutting their ears. I think its called protectionism. If DavidLouis gets out, Magnepan, the lone USA speaker lab, may start to have serious issues staying open for business. I understand, Audiogon has always been about promoting the Made in the USA. Which has never been my thing,,its always been, what speaker delivers the goods. The only speaker I know of that exists is DavidLouis VX8. 2nd to none Caveat: Not heard AER, most likely never will. So lets say maybe 2nd to AER. Thats a big fat maybe.
I'll post new vids every now and then. I will stay self chat for a very longggggg time Sort of pay back for all the years of hype I've read on this site. Tik Tok *Lick*
I find your description of your DIY system very interesting. I too really like the AER BD series of wide-range drivers and I really like the idea of using them as a wide-range midrange driver. When the vast majority of the lower midrange to high frequencies are covered by a smooth driver like the AER drivers, the sound is quite special.
I like horn-based systems that also utilize a compression driver/horn to cover a similarly large part of the midrange, with woofers coming in quite low and a tweeter on top for just the very highest frequencies. This can be done without using digital time delay for the drivers and it still sounds good.
I have a system with a compression driver/horn midrange (Western Electric 713b driver KS12025 horn), twin 12" woofers in a Jensen/Onken cabinet) and Fostex bullet tweeters like yours on top. The 713b driver is my favorite compression driver, but, it does have the disadvantage of not going very low, so mine is crossed over at 700hz. A local shop, Deja Vu Audio (Tyson's Corner VA), makes a lot of horn-based custom systems, and with the really big horns; they crossover the compression driver as low as 150 hz, with the tweeter coming in at a 8,000 hz or higher. These horn systems, as well as systems utilizing wide-band cone midrange drivers (like yours) are so lifelike, vivid, and harmonically saturated, unlike many more conventional systems.
I have a system with a compression driver/horn midrange (Western Electric 713b driver KS12025 horn), twin 12" woofers in a Jensen/Onken cabinet) and Fostex bullet tweeters like yours on top. The 713b driver is my favorite compression driver, but, it does have the disadvantage of not going very low, so mine is crossed over at 700hz.
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You see for my needs your system is way too much speaker.
Dual woofers running to what hz??
713b what sensitivity??
Bullet Fostex Tweeter = too high sens for my needs.
I know your speaker would feel like attack mode to my experience.
I want a speaker that fills the room and the music embraces me with zero fatigue, no agressiveness, a speaker that allows the music to come through as natural, nothing over extended.
Woofers I can't stand. There is not 1 Scanspeak woofer that would compete with my DavidLOuis 8 inch. The big advantage to a FU + tweeter(S, I may run dual tweeters of just a single Scanspeak, not sure). Is the musical image is not broken. A high end FU 8 inch gives up at least 50 hz through 12k+ hz. Clean pure image.
A woofer + Horn is the musical split at the 700 area fq.
A high end FR is super linear, and this gives it the edge over all woofers + tweeters.
Tweeters might be functional below 3k, but a FR's 2k-3500 hz is far superior in performance vs a tweeter.
I really hate tweeters below 4k, 4k-5 k is my ideal xover point in tweeters.
I thought the world of my Seas Thors, Til I placed a crappy Diatone FR on 1 channel. The crappy FR blew away the woofers + tweeer.
A single 6 inch FR DESTROYED Seas highest end speaker.
I never looked back.
Experiemented with several FR speakers til I hit on DavidLouis highest offerings.
Since DL VX8 is no longer avaliable, you can try AER or Voxativ's wooden cone or Cube.
The DLVX6 is still avaliable, limited quantity.
Actually dual DLVX6's will work as good as my DLVX8 + DLVX6.
+ any tweeter of your choice w a sens above 92db.
Woofers IMHO is the worst thing to enter into audioland.
Its a scam, pure snakeoil. Unmusical, highly inefficient and worthless trash.
Are you listening Troels???
My new full-range driver blh with floor boundary re-enforcement hits 30hz strong is an honest 96db 1 watt 1 meter can play pipe organ at high SPL and does all the other things full ranges excel at. I also have a few giant horns systems and all of those are better but much much larger. Still, I disagree with you about horns working well in smaller rooms if set up properly they can perform very well indeed. And the SEAS Thors to me is one of the worst sounding dynamics I have ever owned. My friend owns Madisound I have much experience with it. If you’re using that to compare to.........Most anything would sound better.
I've never heard a single driver speaker perform as well as a good multi-way speaker.
Having said that the Woofer Assisted Wide Band, a type of two way with very low crossover point, makes a lot more sense to me. One might even argue that the high-tech @Arion speakers are a type of WAWB; speaker.
Thors to me is one of the worst sounding dynamics I have ever owned
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Odd your opinion, Based on my talk with Josh at Madisound, he too feels Excel drivers are extremely neutral, zero coloration/fatgue, Troels has very high opinions of Seas Excel. Tyler used exclusively Excel in his designs. Joseph Audio employs Excel.
Thing is with Excel and all seas and MOST Scanspeak drivers, woofers/tweeters is the low sensitivity.
I was running the dual W18's as assist mode w the FR, but figured it was not needed.
All woofers, have a roll off at 40hz. You claijm to geta SOLID 30hz ((90db??, lucky you get 80 db = worthless). Woofers sens starts at 50db, no matter what Seas/Scanspeaks charts claim.
For my exclusive classical music a FR w 92/ for the 6incher and 94db for the 8 incher solved this issue of low sens in the 50hz -100hz range. Tweeters is another matter.
I guess for Jazz you might wanta woofer for extra punch in the lows, but I heard no need for a woofer. Both FR cones managed very well in the bass depatment, No, for me woofers are worthless trash, pure snakeoil.
Having said that the Woofer Assisted Wide Band, a type of two way with very low crossover point, makes a lot more sense to me
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All woofers have a very low sens in the 20hz-60hz range = worthless.
Its alllll about sens, FR w 92+ sens reigh as supreme musical drivers. A woofer is worthless trash next to a higher end FR. In FR I only like wooden cones. The resonances with a wooden cone is near perfect. That said Tang band doesa good job w its composite cone.
Woofers paper composite cones I can't stand. carbon is yet worse.
FR w good cone material slams any woofer from Seas/Scanspeak.
Are you listening Troels?????
@mozartfan”I've never heard a wide range driver alone, Chinese or not, that played the frequency extremes in a realistic manner.”
Check out Cube Audio Nenuphar V2 or Jazzon. True single driver loudspeakers with no crossover. Pretty amazing bass down to ~30hz and very clean, extended, natural highs. They are, however, quite picky about amplifiers…
Check out Cube Audio Nenuphar V2
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes I've heard good things about Cube, WE have a Cube owner here in New Orleans, but am still waiting for a audition at his home.
I should rephrase me above comment.
A FR does in FACT quite well at both extremes, 50ish hz is all I need w my classical collection, W jazz/blues you may want a sub woofer, but IMHO subs are for HT and are not musical, = its fake bass = add on. Yuckkk
Highs, well if you want some ambience on top end a tweeter is HIGHLY recommended = Necessary.
Back to Erik's hacking my far out critique on woofers.
Look woofers are not flat from say 25hz through 2500 hz.
If you do find a Scanspeak woofer that has decent sens at say 25hz , this means the sens at the other end will drop off significantly.
Woofers can only be FUNCTIONAL at either end, as a extra low end speaker = below 35hz OR asa midrange that meets a tweeter at 2500 with high sens.
A woofer can not be both.
facts are woofers suffer at both ends with decent sens. = can't meet the tweeter's low end. Tweeters show break up below 2400 whena orchestra or jazz fusion gets jamming. I just ckecked my tweeters' xover, its not 3k as I thought. Its 1st order w a Mundorf 8.2 cap puts the xover at 2400, a bit lower that I want but do not have cash for a 6 uf which would put my 2 tweeters at a much better 3k hz point.
So my dual Tweeters run at 2400, and at the vol I listen 85 SPL, there's no stress at all.
I'm thinking of swaping both tweeters fora super duper high end Scanspeaker which claims 94db sens.
I really think this Scanspeak tweeter will result in spectacular success.
I have no issues w either tweeter's, but if I can make a gain for a few bucks. I'm willing to put the final touch on my design.
I stand corrected: a tweeter is NOT a tweeter. There are subtle sonics in tweeters. Enough to seek out the best. Which IMHO is the Scanspeak, the one w the pointed phase plug. at 94db. 8 phms.
Nothing from Seas can approach that Scan T.
I think Seas older model tweeters pre 1990 were better as in higher sensitivity. Their newest **Flagships** Millennium/Crescendo, are wayyyyy too low sens to be considered high end tweeters. = trash.
I'm very happy how my design transformed intoa true musical speaker for all classical genres.
Last, and can't resist, woofers serve no purpose in my design. I have found they are near worthless inventions which yet captivated a whole generation of audiophiles.
The asian audiophile figures FR offers a superior true musical image with the least stress on amplifier and the listeners ears.
@mozartfan Several of your comments in your last post puzzle me. Obviously you know the sound and the limitations of the speakers you own, but not of those that you have not heard. I feel sure that the extensive innovation during development of the Cube Audio drivers results in a much improved full range performance at the extremes. If your comments were intended only to describe the limitations of your current full range speakers, then fair enough.
Just ordewred the NEW DLVX SE6,, has the new Neo magnets,, and same style whizzer as the VX8,, I have the older VX6 and may/may not run all 3 FR in the system. IMHO this high end FR beats any woofer/tweeter as far as vocals and all mid fq's. I mean it LIVE.. I have come to HATE/DESPISE all woofers/tweeters to the angst of my local tech guru.. THe box speakers are a gimmick set up by The Official ConsumerCommercial Industry. I hate all box style speakers.
Thing is DavidLouis has only been around past say,,ohh 6 yrs now.. And his latest models are super high end. far far superior to the older FR champs, the Coral Beta 8's. I do not foresee any improvements over the DLVX8 and DLVXSE6.
I will try to upload a YT vid once I figure out if it will be a 2 or 3 FR speaker system.
@mozartfan Several of your comments in your last post puzzle me. Obviously you know the sound and the limitations of the speakers you own, but not of those that you have not heard. I feel sure that the extensive innovation during development of the Cube Audio drivers results in a much improved full range performance at the extremes. If your comments were intended only to describe the limitations of your current full range speakers, then fair enough.
Well as everyone knows here my opinions are rather extreme , if not dogmatic. I've run some experiements and cost me a bundle to get at the bottom of things.
There is not ever 1 box style speaker that interests me in the very least.
These DL FR are the sound I';ve been searching for all my life ,,some 40 yrs now. I realize this site has few FR fans on board.
I vcan tell you this much,, us FR fan-ATICS, we would never ever go back to box style speakers.
Low bass fq's ,, whats that???
Super high fq's.??? whats that??
See here is FR smashes all/every box style speakers,, Wilson and others can stick as many drivers they want in a box, its still not going to match/equal/surpass a high end FR in the complete mids.
96++% of my classical music falls in the full midrange section.. = FR top dawg.
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