MHDT Orchid or Lampizator Amber 3?

The volume on my Golden Atlantic was excellent. When you opt to add the volume you also get a set of analog inputs and the small screen so that your selected input shows, be they your digital inputs or the analog in. Its a trade off between no extra interconnects vs the flexibility of separates.

Thanks ghasley, that's information I did not know.

ghasley,
you said, " With all due deference to the OP, he/she started this thread to question a binary comparo between the Orchid and the Amber 3. I apologize if my posts introduced the idea for others to begin recommending their dacs. The OP may or may not want those recommendations. I was just trying to communicate reference points and a baseline for context."
Your posts along with those from grannyring and others are some of the best I've ever read here in a long time. 

It's true I am most interest in the two dacs in the original posts and made it limited so the thread didn't get into a "he said, she said," kind of a deal.
This thread is a delight to read and I've read every post at least three time.  At the moment, the Amber 3 is at the top of my list followed by the Orchid.  I'm sure I'd be happy with the Orchid, or Pagoda, and sometimes wonder if my 67 old ears with mild tinnitus would be able to tell the difference. 

Thanks again to all of you for your thoughts!
- Bob

I also have tinnitus and I will say the Orchid is very easy on the ears and I am able to turn it up without setting off my tinnitus.  While the Orchid is not as extended or vibrant as the Golden Atlantic it has musicality in spades and is easy on the ears over long listening sessions.

I expect to receive my Amber 3 by mid-January.  It will be interesting to see how she plays in my room with my gear.  

@jzzmusician and @grannyring  I am so sorry the two of you are having to deal with tinnitus. I must admit i dont even know what it is, only having seen the commercials on tv but i know i dont want it! Its probably inevitable, maybe a symptom of believing we are immortal as youngsters only to discover we arent.

@grannyring I truly hope you like the Amber 3. It shows a great deal of character on your part, a rare trait these days on internet forums, to seek out a product you were pretty sure you wouldn’t prefer only to be open minded enough to give it a spin. Very cool.

I have a feeling the guys at Lampizator are going to be very busy. Fred and the stateside Lampi team work hard, show up to most of the shows and let those in the room pick the music. This Amber 3 performance combined with the crazy pricepoint, I predict, will disrupt the dac playing field materially. Hey, some may listen and prefer something else which is also cool. Horses for courses.

@grannyring you never mentioned what was different between the old Lampizator presentation you recalled and what you heard at the dealer yesterday. I would love to know.

Greetings Bob and All -
Wonderful thread with lots of useful perspectives. I've had my Orchid for a couple of weeks and love it. It sounds a lot better now than it did when it started out and seems to take about 30-45 minutes before it really sounds great. 
Here are some questions to those who own Orchids and have been tweaking them.

1. What tubes have you rolled and what have you ended up preferring?

2. Have you upgraded the stock TDA1541A chip? If so, to what version?

3. What capacitors etc have you replaced?

4. Is anyone using a USB decrapifier like the Schiit Eitr?
5. What USB cable are you using?
Thanks all -
Markus

I take it when you get the volume control on the Amber, then you get a remote and input switching? 

What is the price for that option?

And lamp. does not do i2s inputs, right (that's one factor that pushed me towards the audio mirror)? 

I would just like to add my thanks to all you gentlemen for the most excellent sharing of curiosity and experience in this very informative thread.  
I’ve had this little Orchid DAC for a few months now and simply love it.  It sounds so nice and sweet - almost as good as my record player.  Almost....

I’ve been dreading shopping in the minefield of new DACs but this discussion has provided me with needed direction, and I thank you guys for that!  Hope the stateside Lampi team will be participating in the Florida Audio Expo In Feb......

No need to change out the chip in the Orchid. Folks who have and then compared to a fully burned in stock chip now say the stock chip is great.
Output caps can be Jupiter copper foil, Miflex 1uf, Audience XO or the new Vcap ODAM

The Western Electric tube is a must do upgrade. A good fuse helps.
The resistors around the tube can be upgraded to the Vishay Zfoil with great results. Contact me for values if interested and serious about doing the upgrade. Need to be skilled at mods and  working on the circuit board.

There are so many dacs available that as soon as one is determined
as Best by one reviewer, another new model is out by someone else
and you are back to paying freight on a yet another trial. 
Our club did a 10 DAC shootout last August. The top 5 were
so close it was often difficult to perceive a difference. 
You can read results on AZAVClub.com. No one mentioned
the new Line Magnetic DAC. Probably because you can't really
get one too easily. Local Dealer here has had 4 since May. It 
won in our test. But several others were quite close.

@gadios I took a quick look at your clubs shootout of dacs and, while im sure it was fun and enlightening, Im not sure how relevant it is to this thread. What was the model of the Line Magnetic dac? The 502ca has been around 7 or 8 years. The other top performers in your shootout were Schiit Yiggy, Chord Qutest and the Jolida/black ice. Given your lineup of contenders, I would bet on the MHDT Orchid with confidence and the Lampizator Ambr 3 moreso.

I totally disagree with Teejay, having a tube rectifier without question gives you a bigger soundstage and depth, plus tube rolling can give you a much better still performance with 6x5,6ax5 rectifier choices,as well as 12au7 tubes. The ecc99 super tube gives it much more dynamics on demand .each of 5he 3 tubes has a specified duty, much better dynamics much bigger seperate power supplies.my friend has the 
Orchid with the WE tubes , we used the same very good Triode 
Audio Labs Digital American power cords
just go to enjoy the music .com under current reviews 
5 stars across the board for sonics , No other dac under $5 k 
is more musical.i sold m6 $6k PS Audio dac  for this dac sounds 
so more like a real life audio performance .
i do want to mention, I have used many usb cables .the            Final touch Audio usb cable beat my Wireworld Platinum 
and friends AQ Diamond .the best usb cable under $1500
we have found for sonic - Analog naturalness. It is $750 but worth every penny. The Orchid was also tested with this cable and sounded Excellent . The Orchid is the best under $2k dac I have heard. If you upgrade the big coupling capacitors and put a good fuse in it your can truthfully get another 10% musicality out of it 
the excellent Milflexcopper  foil paper poly oil caps fantastic in the orchid, and a very good power cord a must .if in the New England area email me and come over to hear the system and judge for your self. Everyone Have a nice Christmas 🎄🎄

I find SS rectification provides for more powerful and controlled bass. When I build tube preamps and amps I always compare SS to tube rectification and the bass has always been better with SS. This is one area the Orchid did not take a back seat to the Lampi Golden Atlantic in my comparison.

I will also share upgrading the resistors on my Orchid provided as much if not more improvement than the output cap upgrade.

Miflex output caps are good, but I still find the Jupiter copper foils provide more inner detail and overall dimension. You won’t fit the stock 2uf value in the Orchid with the Miflex. They are just too big. You can fit the 2.2uf Jantzen Superior Z, Audience XO and new Vcap Odam caps in the same position as the original caps.

I used a custom made set of 2.2uf flat stacked Jupiter copper foils in mine that are too costly and time consuming for Jupiter to market.

The cap upgrade is important. The entire signal passes through it right to the RCA output. It really influences the sound. This cap is there for two reasons.

- block DC and Pass AC for signal
- high pass filter blocking frequencies below a certain point

The value in there of 2uf is really somewhat arbitrary as MHDT used 2uf assuring it could be used with all manner of preamps with varying input impedance specs. If the preamp’s input impedance load is small such as 10k ohms a larger cap value is needed to assure no bass rolloff! That is the only reason for the 2 uf value.

Let’s say your preamp as a moderate input impedance of 60k. Running the math shows the ideal sized capacitor is 1.0-1.3 uf. No roll off and the best sound! Larger value caps don’t sound as good as the same brand smaller value in this position. Best to always go with the smallest cap value best suited for your system...preamp. Customized vs universal solution.

Many preamps have an input impedance of 50k and above. Tube preamps usually have 100k plus! So a 1-1.3uf cap is fine or perfect for many preamps.  Anyone considering the cap upgrade should first look up your preamp’s input impedance.

I put 2.2uf Jupiter copper foils in mine that are huge. They are flat stacked and made special. I had to mount these in the back over the digital inputs. Just barely fit!

Many good caps would fit if you decide on the 1-1.3 uf range including Vcap, Jupiter as well as perhaps Miflex. Caps such as the new Vcap Odam, Jantzen Superior Z and Audience XO Will fit with their 2-2.2uf value in the same location as the originals.

Hope this helps.

Bill

I was about to ask a similar question. I was told that I should use the Amber 3 with volume controls as a dac for my CD player and also as a preamp. I’m curious as to how the Amber 3 would perform as a preamp. I currently use the Audible Illusions M3b. Any thoughts or recommendations?

@sidog1460  I did a little more reading on the Lampizator website and saw that volume control does add input switching (but not balance control).  It adds $1000 to the cost. 

Great thread and educating.  A tube DAC newbie wonders, is the tube in the Orchid easily rollable or does it require soldering (skills)?  

No soldering required to change the tube in the Orchid. 

I just ordered an Amber 3 demo from our friendly TN Lampizator dealer (shipped to CO).  I'll get it in mid-January for a shootout against my Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE.  Very curious to see how it goes.  Either the Amber ships back to TN or someone else gets a good deal on a beautiful AM DAC with upgraded tubes...

Cal3713,
That's gonna be a shootout I'll be interested in hearing the results of. 
Please post here. 
Thanks

Cal3713, I too would be very interested in your results, as I'm currently looking at both of those DACs.

Looks like some real lucky person snapped up grannyring’s Orchid. The quality of the upgrade, both parts and workmanship absolutely top notch. Lucky guy indeed.

Not sure people will be as interested in the comparison, but I'm also ordering two other demos to join the shootout. The ifi dad pro and sabre x-matrix pro. I've been convinced that the audio mirror and lampizator will be at the top, but I figured this was the right time to test out a number of competitors and put any "what if" thoughts to rest. I've also got a ps audio perfectwave mk2 at home and previously owned a directstream. Together, that's wolfson, brown-burr, Delta-sigma, es, fpga, and r2r decoders. Should be interesting to see how my internet-derived expectations hold up... 

If anyone's around the Denver area and would like to bring another dac or otherwise play along, just let me know. I've got a system posted here...

Cal3713, if you could get the Primaluna EVO 100 DAC in that shootout, you'd really answer a lot of my questions.

@dfairc777a Would love to... wish someone had one around. And I do still believe strongly in "ymmv", regardless of the outcome. So much depends on the system in which everything is embedded.

I, for example, have no doubt that the psa directstream sounds spectacular in some systems (see the stereophile reviews), but it just didn't work in mine (or with my ears). I also have know that my amplifiers (first watt f4s) would sound terrible with some speakers, but are wonderful with mine.

cal3713,
I am highly interested in your Lampizator Amber 3 and the Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE shootout.

Thank you.

To answer Butlers post, Yes Lampizator North America will be a the Florida Audio Show in Feb 7-9th.

We will have two rooms. Duplicating the Capital Audiofest room that was considered one of the best in show. Amber 3 DAC, Spatial and Linear tube audio. Just under 10k for the system too. The Amber 3 will be for sale as a demo deal.

We are also doing a high end room with Vac, Daedalus and will have a brand new balanced Pacific and our SuperKomputer for transport duties. The Pacific and SK have already been spoken for.

Hope to see you some folks from Agon there. It's a fun show, and of course the weather beats most places in Feb.

Rob
Lampizator North America
https://Lampizator.com 

@lampizatorna 

Rob, from the pictures of the Amber 3 it looks like the case is a sealed enclosure, what is involved with changing the tubes either due to tube failure or desire to tube roll? Does the unit have to be shipped somewhere for service? 

@facten 

Since the Amber 3 is a sealed design we don't encourage tube rolling. If careful the case can be opened, and the tubes can easily be changed. If you're concerned about damaging the unit and or electrical shock, please have an experienced tech replace the tubes. We have two techs we use for service/warranty repair, one on each coast. 

With all due respect to the Lampizator team, the case is similar to a great many cases: to remove the cover one only need remove a few screws (hex) and I'm sure it slides off to reveal the inner workings. There are a couple of seals which would be broken if you did remove the cover, which might void the warranty if you did so (I emphatically have not!).

Now, if I wanted to tube roll some 12au7's etc, it would take something pretty spectacular to better the sound. Flavor the sound? Yes, I'm sure it would be possible but to significantly better the sound by rolling in some NOS tubes would be highly subjective. I haven't felt the need to tube roll the one I have but I wouldn't hesitate if I believed it "needed" it or there was some sort of deficiency/correction that could be influenced by tube rolling.

As is always the case, listen to your manufacturer if they provide guidance, especially if by not following said guidance it would void the warranty.  I just didn't want the community to believe that future tube maintenance was going to require a trip back to the manufacturer in Poland and the answer is no. Recognize that manufacturers and their role in promoting safety/operability and long term reliability are best served by advising against opening the unit.

I just wanted to make sure the audiogon community wasn't under the impression that the case is sealed, as in impossible to open, versus advising the user base to seek out an audio professional before "fixing" the Amber 3. Peace to all.

In short, if you want to risk voiding your warranty, the Amber 3 can be opened just like other equipment you may have.The difference being that by breaking the seals, there is no turning back.

Well, I have 2 DACs - Modwright and Aqua and the cases have several  hex screws on the casing itself to make it easy to remove; the Amber looks like the screws are only on the faceplate. So if I follow you  if a tube goes bad while the unit is under warranty and you don't want to incur shipping for something as easy as replacing a tube it sounds like you will invalidate the warranty because of 'broken seals".  I don't get the logic to this setup

No way opening up the case should or will void a warranty. I am not just hooking up a piece of gear that was shipped from Poland without first making sure all tubes are seated properly and nothing is loose.  Standard operating practice. @lampizatorna  please confirm as I just purchased a unit and I am looking inside before giving it 120 volts and risking a short or worse in my rig. Tubes or parts shift or become fully or partially unseated etc... Stuff just happens when shipping and handling from so far away. Seems like a reasonable thing to do. I have had my share of gear show up with broken tubes, tubes loose and only partially in the socket, parts shifted and loose etc....

It would make a lot of sense if they ship without the tubes installed for safety while in shipping transit, so that owners will install the tubes themselves when they receive them.

@facten @grannyring 

That is incorrect. We don't invalidate warranties if you opened the case to change or roll tubes. We just don't encourage it to avoid electrical shocks and or damaging gear with wrong tube types, etc. 

That makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up. Now, a notorious modifier like myself has real reasons for a warranty to be voided 🤓. 

@lampizatorna 

I'll send you a pm for further clarity for myself 

I would love to bring a hot rodded Orchid over for a comparison to your two box Goliath DHT dac! Your power supply alone is 5 times the weight of the diminutive Orchid.  

"...the Amber looks like the screws are only on the faceplate."

I have the old(er) Amber model and by looking at the pictures, it appears the chassis is very similar or the same as the new model. In addition to the larger hex screws on the face plate, there are 11 small screws all around the chassis that need to be removed in order to remove the cover and access the inside. The three tubes are very firmly in place and the likelihood of them dislodge during shipment seems very slim. Given the absence of any vent holes on the chassis, my concern/curiosity was the heat generated by the tubes affecting tube/electronics lifespan, especially the 6X5 rectifier almost touching the top cover so I ran mine without the cover for a while until I was convinced the heat was not an issue given the huge empty space inside the chassis. Tubes’ visual esthetics notwithstanding, I ultimately put the cover back on. As a side note, in my unit, changing the tubes to NOS 12AU7/12AT7 (with balanced triodes) gave a more balanced and extended sound. Its possible that the OEM Brimar tubes were simply tired. If the new Amber 3 is indeed significantly better than mine, then you guys are in for a treat since I think mine sounds very good in my (all tube) system.

Kalali said,

" Looks like some real lucky person snapped up grannyring’s Orchid. The quality of the upgrade, both parts and workmanship absolutely top notch. Lucky guy indeed."
I'm the guy.  And the original poster of this thread.  I received grannyring's modified Orchid yesterday.  Here are my thoughts.
Firstly, my system is described in the first post on this thread.  Grannyrings extensive modifications are detailed further down so I won't repeat them on this post.
First a little background about me; I'm a serious lover of music.  Some of my earliest childhood memories are of begging my parents for records.  Or a dollar to buy a record.  Listening to the radio everyday and into the night.  It was a natural thing and I didn't have to develop a love for music.  I just had it. 

I started playing percussion in the 5th grade, and have continued throughout my adult life.  I've played hundreds of gigs, taught and have listened to live gigs as often as possible since I was about 16 or so. 

Jazz is clearly my first love, followed by R&B, World Music, (especially Latin and West African) classical , (mostly modern) and the random opera. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I know what a trombone sounds like. Or a trumpet, or a string bass.  Not amplified.  Or a piano.  Good pianos sound sweet, round and beautiful; the cheaper ones not so much.
So I get the Orchid yesterday.  (Shout out to grannyring for superb packaging, communication and from our phone conversation I felt he was an all around good guy.  Maybe one day I'll meet him.
The Orchid arrived about 1 pm yesterday and having listened to music most of the morning plugged it in.  I let it warm up and get used to its new home until today when I gave it a serious listen.

Here are my impressions;
1.  At 67 years of age I was seriously wondering if I could even distinguish a difference between the PS Audio NuWave and the Orchid.  I live in a small town, hundreds of miles away from any hi fi stores.  I only know of two other people that even have a 2 channel rig.
The answer is yes.  The difference was instant and apparent.
2. Did I like the new sound?
Again the answer is yes.  And it took me awhile to figure out why I liked it. 

I don't have your typical reviewer's command of language to describe the nuances heard.  What I will describe is how I "feel" about the what I hear.
Think about what it's like to listen to music on a cold winter day.  It's like zero degrees outside.  The heat is cranked up and you're sitting on the couch listening to music.  You're warm but there is still a chill in the air.
Now, think about the first time you ever experienced wood stove heat.  It heats everything; the floor, the table, the furniture and the drapes. 

The Orchid sound like a wood fired stove.  Everything is warm, cozy and wraps around you in a way that makes you want to want more.
Most of the music I listen to is made by real, not electronic instruments.  In a way, they are organic sounding and I got much more of that with the Orchid than I did with the NuWave. 

The soundstage is better.  Not a little bit better, but a lot better.  And for some reason the relation between my left and right speaker is more harmonious than it's ever been. 

To summarize all the above; music is now even more enjoyable.  And to be honest I didn't think it was possible.
- Bob

Congrats Bob! That’s what this hobby is all about, recreating an event worthy of your attention and I’m thrilled for you that listening to your new dac has brought you joy. Indeed, Grannyring is one of the good guys and there is likely a little "kharmic mojo" goodnesses infused into your new Orchid because of its prior owner.

Happy new year as we all chase the elusive....

Congratulations indeed. You got yourself a great DAC. Enjoy.  

I like that this thread ended up with people buying both dacs under consideration and everyone coming away ecstatic about their systems.  Good work.

Having a tonof experience modding products to get the most out of them 
the orchid has a lot of hidden potential just by upgrading all the white smoothing,
coupling caps . The Pogota is much better then the orchid it is a true 20 bit 
classic Burr Brown 1704 chipset and sounds very good . I have upgraded 2 of these and a orchid  changing the 6 white caps , upgrading the fuse is a dramatic upgrade , you can go even further upgrading the power supply caps many installing a all copper Furutech IEC input. We are talking over a 10% improvement across the board and comparison with dacs several times their cost 
the New Jolida Black ice  glass DSD with a few mods is a giant killer 
stock it won in a shoot out against several well known dacs . The mods are a big plus .

I have a maxed out Lampizator Amber 3 with totally upgraded bigger case .
no need to remove 16 screws and remove the whole case I set it up just slide off the top . I  put over $2300 in upgrades with tube rolling options and the best of the best  parts and wiring .i am upgrading to a modded Atlantic . Nothing under $6k is as musical or versatile as this dac and looks great.
it had stock 6x5 rectifier  tubes , I find the 6ax5 Tungsol or Amperex verygood. Upgrade. I  had added a 5 v transformer for Even better sound the great classic 5ar4 and currently using nos 1950 RCA 5U4G coke bottle smooth plates exceptional sound.
rectifier tubes and without question help to Taylor your system .

The Pagoda is not as good sounding as the Orchid to some ears. It is subjective for sure.  Many think the Orchid is the gem of the MHDT Dac line.  The upgrades I have done on the Orchid certainly increase the sound quality by at least 25-30%.  The key resistors are an important element in getting the most out of the Orchid. Agree on the fuse upgrade! 

I bet your modified Amber 3 sounds amazing! Hope the stock Amber 3 is as good as the upgraded Orchid units I have heard. We will see! I have high expectations and some of this is based on your comments audioman58.