MHDT Orchid or Lampizator Amber 3?

Search Abbas Audio on Ebay. Their DAC chassis is interesting. It's very narrow to allow space for another component on the same rack shelf. I really like that. I just don't like the weird 1uf oil caps at the output. 

Rx8....
How would you compare the level of improvement with the 6SN7 substitution versus the stock Orchid and the modified version ( new caps, resistors,etc.)...In other words if one just substituted the 6SN7 in a stock ORCHID, would the level of improvement be similar to a modified ORCHID ( which included a non 6SN7 tube )

"The 6SN7 is in and playing, 10 minutes ago. Soundstage is unleashed, filled-out, big, warm, detailed, easeful, relaxed, with enormous bass and dynamics."

This begs the question why the stock Orchid does not use this tube. Seems like a very obvious choice given this feedback.

I think that all this attention being paid in this (very worthwhile) discussion might be drawing attention away from the fact that the stock Orchid is really super satisfying.  You don't have to modify it at all to get superb,  non-fatiguing music. Ok,  MHDT themselves suggest rolling the tube to the WE396 tube and others on their recommended tube list.  And doing that goes a long way towards the character being described via these modifications. But the stock unit is really,  really good. 

I just ordered my Orchid this morning.
Says 2 to 3 weeks delivery from Linear Tube Audio.
Plan to run it for a while in stock form to get an idea of it's Sonic signature and then off to Bill it will go to be modded.

I agree the stock Orchid a good DAC but in my system I sill much preferred the older LamizatOr Amber (not Amber 3), which I currently have in my system. To my ears, some of the comparisons made between the Amber 3 and the modded Orchid were spot on with my experience of the stock Orchid and the Amber; Orchid was more easy listening and more forgiving of the recording, generally more even handed, whereas the Amber is a bit more dynamic and more resolving on good recordings. The Amber also provides more options for tube rolling between the three tubes; rectifier, the buffer, and the output tubes. I think in both cases the components upstream and downstream of the DAC make a big difference in the ultimate outcome.  

The upgraded Orchid plays on a higher level for sure.  Add the SR Orange fuse and tube rolling and the Orchid really steps up several big notches! 

I like my Amber 3, but needed to add better tubes, SR fuse and some other upgrades/tweaks to get her to sing like she does now.   

Gear and systems can can be tweaked, modified and made to perform at much higher levels without the need to buy new pieces.  So many of us have gear that can be taken to the next level with tweaks and well chosen part upgrades if one is a skilled DIYer or has done by one. 

Bill what other upgrades/tweaks did you make to the Amber 3?

That's pretty high praise for the Shuguang tube.

Used the Shuguang CV181 in my Modwright LS100 preamp, found it very good sounding. If you want a suggestion for another very good sounding (TME) new production tube you might try the  Sophia Electric 6SN7; I use that it the LS100 now. 

I have a couple of Sophia Electric 6SN7 tubes from my LS100. Has anyone asked Jiun about using those in the Orchid? 

rx8man

My Mullard 6DJ8 variant is still on the way to try out in my grannyring modded Orchid, but your experience with the   CV-181-Z is certainly intriguing. I can't imagine though leaving the dac uncovered, and I have no idea as to how I would go about enlarging the hole for the larger tube. Have you given any thought as to how you would  do that, and make a neat job of it? Would be nice if MHDT labs offered a lid with a larger tube opening, but I don't know if they would go for that.

Decent machine shop could do it, only needs it if using 6SN7 or CV-181.

Good point.

Where did you source your  Shuguang CV-181-Z? It appears only the 181-T variant is available in the US.....other than getting direct from China on Ebay. It appears at least some prefer the Z vs T model tube.

Maybe this would work!

https://www.amazon.com/Shuguang-Treasure-CV181-Z-Replace-CV181-T/dp/B01EA3ME9W/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Shuguang+Treasure+Cv181-z+Vacuum+Tube&qid=1581270385&s=musical-instruments&sr=1-1

Singles or pairs "Z" series little warmer: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=CV-181-Z&_sacat=0&...

I think the question of whether a Z is better than a T variant is open for discussion and might depend on other system characteristics. Don Sachs, who builds very well-respected Preamps and buys a ton of tubes from China and uses them in his equipment has a great deal of experience with these new Chinese tubes. He advised me that he believes that the T variant is better than the Z variant. I think the description that the Z variant is warmer aligns with what Don has told me. I have no experience with either of these tubes. Just trying to say that It might not be a situation where the T tube is always better than the Z tube.

I have also heard the T is the best sounding from a Don Sachs preamp owner who tried both. 

On the Amazon website for the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z tube linked to above, in answer to someones' question about the grade of this tube, the seller responded:
"The brand have three grade , General Grade,Treasure Grade(better grade) and Natural Sound(best grade), respectively.
This is Treasure Grade."

The CV181-T tube, like the one The Tube Store sells, is called Natural Sound. So, one would assume that this is the 'best grade' of this tube going by what the seller on Amazon stated....however that designation translates to in actual use.
 
  https://www.thetubestore.com/shuguang-natural-sound-cv181-t?quantity=1&custcol_boxed_set_option=2

I placed the Shuguang Treasure cv181-z in the stock Orchid with the adaptor and did not like the sound at all. Very bright, forward and lacking warmth and bass. The cv181 already had 50 or so hours on an FYI.

Next I performed my upgrades on the Orchid and put the same cv181-z back in and boy does it sound fantastic now! Best I’ve heard the Orchid sound for sure. This is with only a hand full of hours on the upgraded parts.

The stock unit sounds far better with the Western Electric Tube most owners have vs rolling in the cv181-z. The upgraded Orchid sounds better with the cv181 vs the Western Electric and is the best I have heard the dac sound to date. It will only get better with burn in. The upgrades seem to be mandatory to get the most out of tube rolling .... at least the 6sn7s and Shuguang Treasure c181-z varieties.

The Shuguang cv181-z pulls .6 amps of current on the fills like all 6sn7 tubes and is in fact a direct replacement. The cv181 label given by Shuguang is really pure marketing as NOS cv181s actually pull .9 amps of current, not .6 amps.

MHDT states you can try 6sn7 tubes as they may well be ok to use. Please understand the .6 amps the filaments draw is right up against the ceiling MHDT suggests for filament current draw. So roll 6sn7s at your own risk🙂. My friend’s unit has run for many days and hours with absolutely no issues. The tranny does not even get warm. It stays cool. No signs of stress on the Orchid.

The sound is just wonderful with the Shuguang. Very special.

I finally received my NOS Mullard ECC189/CV5331 (6DJ8 variant) a couple days ago. Without any burn in on the tube, I was loving what I was hearing. With a couple days of running the tube 24/7, things are sounding glorious. I had no interest in making any changes to my grannyring modded Orchid dac (with SR Orange fuse and Western Electric tube), but after reading rx8mans' posts and others on another blog who had tried a 6DJ8 variant tube, my inquisitiveness got the better of me. So I ordered the adapter and the Mullard tube, and now my Western Electric tube is in storage. I have to say - and I know it is a cliched statement - but listening to tracks I know very well is as though hearing them anew.  Liquid, smooth, inviting, lifelike, effortless, revealing of subtleties are all just some descriptors that come to mind. No need to modify the top plate; the Mullard sticks its' little head out of the top. I have no idea how this tube would sound in an unmodified Orchid dac; as I had written in a pm  to Bill (grannyring), it is my suspicion that his mods allow changes such as these tube types to really reveal what they are capable of, with the reduced noise floor of the dac. Actually, that is something that continues to amaze.....how 'quiet' the dac is, in the sense that the music emerges from a kind of sonic void.  Like a silent/stillness from which the sounds emerge. Beautifully addictive.

I am hearing the same thing here @stewg. It is remarkable how good this dac can be made to sound.  Right now it is my favorite dac! The resolution and purity coupled with the silent background and huge soundstage is so compelling.  I have not heard a better dac than this Orchid (outfitted with the upgrades and cv181z Tube)  at any price.  Period.  There, I just said it 🙂.  

Funny thing is is I have some other ideas on how to extract even more out of this wonderful design.  I will update all on my next round of potential upgrades to the power supply and beyond.  What a fun dac and brilliant design. 

rx8man
Interesting. Will that disc fit without displacing the top cover lid of the dac?


Bill (grannyring)....that's one of the things I admire about you. You incessantly keep an open mind, and are not afraid to tell it like you hear it. I don't have anywhere near the experience you or some others on this forum have (although I have been at it since the mid '70s), but I was thinking similarly....that jeez, this is best I have ever heard my music played - ever! Even from way back when I owned a very nice Linn Sondek set up. 

Have Orchid dac with SR orange fuse, Jantzen superior Z caps and Russian Reflector 6N23P Getter on wire silver shield 1975.Sounds very good in my system,much better than WE396.

A question for grannyring regarding his V-Cap ODAM output capacitors 
installation:

Does the shorter lead (the outer coil) point in the direction of the front or rear of the Orchid?   Another way of putting it is, does the writing on the ODAM flow in the direction of the front or back of the Orchid?

Thanks in advance.

The lettering flows toward the outer foil on the cap so the “V” is at the back of the unit. Thus,  the cap reads from the back of the unit towards the front. The outer foil faces the front of the unit.

I always add a .01uf Vcap Cutf in parallel to the 2.2uf Odam. The combo is magic in this dac. Pure magic! The caps need at least 24 hours before you start to hear what they are capable of doing. Figure 100 or so hours gets you just about fully broken in.

The SR Orange fuse should have the lettering going from the back of the unit to the front.  Use a 1.6 amp, slow blow, 5x22mm.   

@grannyring 

Thanks again

The SR Orange fuse should have the lettering going from the back of the unit to the front. Use a 1.6 amp, slow blow, 5x22mm.

@Is that supposed to be 5 X 20 MM?

Want to try the Vcaps,what about the value if you have 50Kohm input impedance preamplifier.For best sound you can tweak the value for best match?

Sorry. Typo! Yes 5x20mm

@batenet.  Just use the 2.2uf Odam with the ..01uf Cutf.  Perfect combo for your system.  

@grannyring 

Thank you for answer

what are the resistor values needed for the Orchid upgrade?

Finally back home.
The Orchid and Bills USB cable were waiting for me !
Only had chance to connect them up and make sure it all works, not sure when I might get some critical listening in, hopefully tonight but the "honeydew" list is enormous.... lol.

Stone cold both will sound a little closed in and constricted. After even 24 hours you will start to hear what they really sound like. The dac, cable  and tube need closer to 60 hours to get most of the way. 

Heard the Amber 3 at the Florida Audio Expo last Saturday. Same brands used in other shows ( Lampi, Innuos, Spacial Audio, Linear Tube Audio LTA Z10 Integrated and Anti-cables). Highly praised in the past, this combo sounded amazing for the price ( Less than $10k) And certainly one of the best during this weekend.

It sure sounds " broken" right now.

Just have to tough it out.

But another blow on the Aurender N100 I have though. Just discovered it does not support wma files. Only have about 95000........

Question for you all.  Do you think the Auralic Vega $3400 when new is a better piece of kit than the Orchid.  I ask because the LTA website says all DAC sales are final.  No 14 day trial..... 

I have a shot at getting a buddies Vega.  But the Orchid sounds enticing... A tube dac would likely fit well with my Modwright integrated. 

I have an Auralic Vega and the Orchid. They are both good DACS. The Vega is very neutral and detailed, while the Orchid sounds a little bit more "analog" and to my ears has more body. I haven't used them both in the same system, so my impressions may be influenced by the different systems they are in. The Vega was in my main system until my recent purchase of a TEAC NT-505. I'm leaning towards selling the Vega and keeping the Orchid if that tells you anything. 

Have been lurking on this thread as I am trying to determine what DAC will be replacing my Schiit Gumby. (Running with a Line Magnetic LM-805IA SET amp and Spendors A7’s)

@big_greg so if I am reading you correctly you are saying that the Orchid > Vega and Teac NT-505 > Vega? Where does that leave the NT-505 vs the Orchid? I am particularly interested given how vastly different they are. Which one will be in your main system?

The NT-505 is staying in my main system since it includes a streamer. I'm using the Orchid in my computer room with my PC as the source. I can't say I like one over the other and I'm not knocking the Vega, it's a great piece, I just like how organic the Orchid sounds. 

@big_greg i appreciate it. Thanks...