If I had been the VP of Marketing for Lampizator, I wouldn’t have named the new dac the Amber 3 but they were also likely trying to keep their naming conventions more consistent than in the past.
The Amber 2 I heard in the past(not in my system) sounded fine and the Amber 3 is literally a completely different animal to my ears. The new digital engine will challenge what you thought was possible for under $5-6,000. I am a R2R fan and I simply can’t believe this sound is possible from a ds chip. Mind boggling. Once again, I would place the Amber 3 on par with the Aqua La Scala Optologic dac for almost one third the money. Keep in mind, I wasn’t trying to decide which one to purchase, I already owned both along with the TotalDac. The Amber 3 is on par with the Aqua and it wasn’t embarrassed by the TotalDac.
Listen, everyone should buy and enjoy what they can afford and what they like. With that said, I don’t want what I’m trying to convey to come off as some comparative justification to feel good about purchasing one product over another. I still have many of the aforementioned dacs, I’m just trying to tell you what I am hearing in my home with these dacs. I’m happy with each purchase...they are all fine dacs but the Amber 3 is, in my opinion, a disruptive kind of product. It so blurs the the cost-benefit ratio that the law of diminishing returns shifts materially.
Choose to listen to one or don’t but make no mistake, the Amber 3 is not an upgraded Amber 2 to my ears. The Amber 3 in time may be considered an entry into the top tier of dacs rather than just an entry into the Lampizator line. If the Amber 3, the Aqua Optologic and my Totaldac were in my system at the same time, to my ears, you could remove any two of them and I would not get fussy. Its that good. YMMV.
|
Allow me to chime in if I may. I either presently own or have in the very recent past (this year) owned the following dacs: Chord Dave, Nagra Classic Dac, Lampizator Golden Atlantic, Lampizator Amber 3, Border Patrol Dac SE, MHDT Orchid, TotalDac D1-Tube-Mk2, Aqua La Scala Optologic, Audio Mirror Tubadour Mk3 with all the upgrades. In the distant past some of the better dacs I’ve had range from Cary 306 pro, Wadia 861se, McIntosh MDA1000 and I began experimenting with streaming in 2004 with a Macbook feeding the optical input of a Cary 306-200 cd player.
Yes, things have progressed mightily over the past 15 years and today I stream from an Innuos Zenith Mk3 using a FTA Callisto usb cable. We really are fortunate that there are so many wonderful choices available to the audio community for they are virtually all vastly superior to what could even be conceived of just a mere decade ago. I tend to appreciate the tubier side of the sound spectrum, I have 3 systems and have just this year owned (not borrowed) Nagra Classic and Pass Labs XA25 solid state amps and Audio Research Ref75se, Shindo, VTL , LTA and Leben amps on the tube side of the scale. Cabling is presently Tellurium Q and Auditorium 23 with Kubala and Cardas bounced in an out on occasion. With all of this in context, I would like to comment on this topic.
With all due respect to @teajay (and I do deeply respect teajay for his fearless advocacy of products he believes set a new bar) as well as the others here who have commented and in recognition that we all hear differently and every ancillary difference affects everything else, I offer the following observations. The MHDT Orchid and the Lampizator Amber 3 are both terrific dacs but in no way is the Orchid the equal to the Amber 3. Now, this is in my system, my room and my ears. My experience with these two dacs, side by side for an extended period leave me confident in this appraisal for the following reasons. The Amber 3 is so much more refined, dynamic and fully fleshed out that my belief is that this offering must be a loss leader for Lampizator. The bass performance is exceptional, a liquid, almost illuminated mid range is complimented with a delicate yet robust top end. Its really mind boggling, to me anyway, that they can sell this dac for less than $3,000!
The Orchid is an exceptional dac as well and if you are shopping at its pricepoint you can feel confident that you will enjoy your music and not be missing the party. Make no mistake though, the Orchid is not the equal of the Lampizator Amber 3. So, where would I place the Orchid among the dacs I have spent considerable time with? I would place the Orchid slightly ahead of the Border Patrol DAC SE (I have yet to experience the new SEI version). I prefer the Audio Mirror Tubadour to the Orchid and I prefer the Amber 3 to the upgraded Tubadour I have. I believe the Amber 3 is on par with the Lampizator Golden Atlantic and the Aqua La Scala Optologic, so close in fact that the minor differences are quite subjective in the smallest degree.
So, what should you do and which dac is right for you? You should arrange a listen to each and decide for yourself which you prefer. The Orchid is referred to by many as a giant killer and I guess it just depends on the giant it is facing. Without monetary constraints of any kind, I would consider the Orchid a superb dac unless I heard it back to back compared to the Audio Mirror Tubadour. The Tubadour is a better dac in every way to my ears than the Orchid. The Amber 3 is better still than the Tubadour, again to my ears, and you have to spend a whole lot more money to materially better its performance.
To be quite frank, if I compare the Chord Dave to the Amber 3 I prefer the Amber 3. The Dave has more features, it probably “measures better” to the crowd that decides before hearing for themselves which dac is better but it just isn’t as musically satisfying to me.
Buy what YOU like, there are alot of choices out there and they are all terrific in their own way. Good luck and peace to all. |
@grannyring how true, how true!
I was not overly impressed by Lampizator dacs until the Golden Atlantic came along. Your assessment about their prior dacs is consistent with my memory although I never had one for any material length of time.
Was your Tubadour stock or did it have the upgraded caps, etc.? To be fair, try to remember the sound of your Orchid stock, before you modded it and upgraded it so considerably. The stock Orchid (prior to you infusing it with your magic touch) is not at the same level as the upgraded Tubadour. I cant comment on a stock Tubadour as I’ve never heard one. The Amber 3 granny, you really should hear it. Its quite an accomplishment given its price.
I hope your cable business is still thriving. I enjoy your Schroeder Method interconnects (I use them between a recorder and an integrated). Best to all. |
@t_ramey I believe the engine is the same, however, that is a question better posed to the Lampizator folks. I have heard the TRP is supposed to be exceptional but I have not heard one. Many say that it approaches the GG but I will leave that to the experts with experience with the TRP. The guys at Lampizator NA will tell you I purchased the Amber 3 to reside in my 3rd system, it was a default/impulse buy based on my wonderful experience with my Golden Atlantic. It was intended to be for background listening in my office but alas...its too good for that.
I have left my Border Patrol in my 3rd system, the Amber 3 is in my second system and I will leave my main system out of the discussion for now. One cool use that I discovered about the Border Patrol DAC SE is that I use it in a system that I use to digitally record using a Tascam digital recorder. Originally used to capture my vinyl, I accidentally discovered that if your Border Patrol DAC SE is the usb only model that the rca-spdif output from the Border Patrol is a very high quality output. So much so that if someone was inclined to want to capture a digital data stream from a streaming service like Qobuz or Tidal or Roon and wanted to drop it onto a flash memory card or hard drive it really works well. One of my cars has a flash memory port so its really easy to make "mix tapes" for those times where I feel like listening to certain specific artists in the car without utilizing my phone or eating up bandwidth while traveling. DISCLAIMER: I would not support in any way anyone who offloads the streams onto media as a way of not having to purchase the music. |
@dfairc777a I am not familiar with Cambridge gear nor have I heard the Primaluna dac. I did read up on the Primaluna a while back thinking that it looked like a neat effort. With that tube compliment and the Kevin Deal/Upscale Audio/Primaluna partnership it would be hard to go wrong. It appears to be nicely over built with an exceptional preamp/output stage built in and its likely a very high quality dac. The jury is out on the tube clock from where I stand but I believe Kevin Deal is a straight shooter. I've seen posts where he can be a bit short with exhaustive tirekickers but my experience with him has always been wonderful. I believe Upscale does not charge a restocking fee on Primaluna gear purchased from them but that is from memory so dont quote me. Once again, alot of really neat gear out there to savor and covet. Good luck. |
@facten The La Scala Optologic is a terrific dac. It has a very nice and sincere presentation. Its not too "showy" meaning the mids are the right scale and color, not over or under emphasized. The low end is nice and full without being plump. Just the right amount of overhang and decay. The high end is exceptional and frankly, I believe the high end bests the TotalDac Tube dac. Its a terrific dac.
The Amber 3 has a more pronounced low end and the mids, while not as pronounced as the Lampizators of yesteryear, is a bit more present than the Aqua. The high end is too close to call but the Amber 3 seems more layered and 3 dimensional to me than the Aqua. Where the Amber just has me shaking my head wondering how did they do it at this price point is in the area of tempo or jump factor. It just seems to have a little more PRAT or life to the music. Hey, it might all be due to something very minor like output voltage or something along those lines. The Amber 3 just feels a bit more dynamic I guess is how I would describe it. Not artificially so (like the Chord Dave to me).
Mine is a single ended unit so I didn't compare it against the balanced outputs of the Aqua. The Nagra and the TotalDac are a more "comprehensive" presentation but the gap between the Amber 3 and the aforementioned is closer than it has any right to be. Factor in the cost differential and I am left grateful that digital technology has matured so elegantly. I say this alot on Audiogon but aren't we all so very lucky to be enjoying a hobby where the small manufacturers have innovated things to such a degree? Peace to all.
|
With all due deference to the OP, he/she started this thread to question a binary comparo between the Orchid and the Amber 3. I apologize if my posts introduced the idea for others to begin recommending their dacs. The OP may or may not want those recommendations. I was just trying to communicate reference points and a baseline for context.
@grannyring why don’t you PM me, since you have made me some cables in the past and you have an exemplary reputation, I would be happy to send you my Amber 3 for an appropriate period of time so that you may listen for yourself. All you would be out is shipping and insurance both ways.
The Orchid is a terrific dac and I’m sure with the modifications you have made it is extraordinary. If you are happy with both the sound you are getting and the investment made, comparing the two may be a rabbit hole you would rather avoid. Its your choice as I have no skin in the game but if nothing else, you will either feel better about your choice or come to the conclusion that doubling your investment in a dac brings only minor improvements to your system. Let me know. Peace.
|
@grannyring Wow, this thread is a wonderful example of the value of the Audiogon community. A friendly exchange of ideas, no one felt insulted that some may prefer brand x over their brand y dac while others love their dac (which may be manufactured by slave labor that sells for $99) and then a friendly brick and mortar dealer near you has what you wish to hear! Thats what Audiogon is all about.
I hope @gestalt has an Amber 3 in stock in order to expedite your curiosity although I would be surprised as they seem to be tough to see in the wild, they are made to order and I understand there is a backlog. At a minimum, you should go hear the Golden Atlantic TRP. It will give you a taste of the modern evolution of Lampizator dacs. Best wishes and happy holidays to all. |
@grannyring which tubes was Colin running in the Golden Atlantic TRP?
|
Very cool. @grannyring now that you’ve heard the Golden Atlantic, isn’t it uncanny how different the recent Lampizators sound versus just a few years ago. Weren’t you surprised when you thought back to when you first formed your unfavorable impression of the Lampizator sound?
Whether or not you find the Amber 3 the right dac for you, whether you find that it improves those musical areas you value, its fun to experience something new. Kudos to the OP for posing a valid question that provoked a civil conversation and challenged a respected member here to experience it for himself and kudos to @grannyring for making the effort to go listen. No matter the outcome, this is an example to us all. @grannyring was admittedly predisposed that the Lampizator sound wasn’t to his tastes and he came away with the initial bias, a bias we all have from time to time, overcome.
The moral to the story: search out and listen for yourself.
|
The volume on my Golden Atlantic was excellent. When you opt to add the volume you also get a set of analog inputs and the small screen so that your selected input shows, be they your digital inputs or the analog in. Its a trade off between no extra interconnects vs the flexibility of separates. |
@grannyring you never mentioned what was different between the old Lampizator presentation you recalled and what you heard at the dealer yesterday. I would love to know.
|
@jzzmusician and @grannyring I am so sorry the two of you are having to deal with tinnitus. I must admit i dont even know what it is, only having seen the commercials on tv but i know i dont want it! Its probably inevitable, maybe a symptom of believing we are immortal as youngsters only to discover we arent.
@grannyring I truly hope you like the Amber 3. It shows a great deal of character on your part, a rare trait these days on internet forums, to seek out a product you were pretty sure you wouldn’t prefer only to be open minded enough to give it a spin. Very cool.
I have a feeling the guys at Lampizator are going to be very busy. Fred and the stateside Lampi team work hard, show up to most of the shows and let those in the room pick the music. This Amber 3 performance combined with the crazy pricepoint, I predict, will disrupt the dac playing field materially. Hey, some may listen and prefer something else which is also cool. Horses for courses.
|
@gadios I took a quick look at your clubs shootout of dacs and, while im sure it was fun and enlightening, Im not sure how relevant it is to this thread. What was the model of the Line Magnetic dac? The 502ca has been around 7 or 8 years. The other top performers in your shootout were Schiit Yiggy, Chord Qutest and the Jolida/black ice. Given your lineup of contenders, I would bet on the MHDT Orchid with confidence and the Lampizator Ambr 3 moreso. |
With all due respect to the Lampizator team, the case is similar to a great many cases: to remove the cover one only need remove a few screws (hex) and I'm sure it slides off to reveal the inner workings. There are a couple of seals which would be broken if you did remove the cover, which might void the warranty if you did so (I emphatically have not!).
Now, if I wanted to tube roll some 12au7's etc, it would take something pretty spectacular to better the sound. Flavor the sound? Yes, I'm sure it would be possible but to significantly better the sound by rolling in some NOS tubes would be highly subjective. I haven't felt the need to tube roll the one I have but I wouldn't hesitate if I believed it "needed" it or there was some sort of deficiency/correction that could be influenced by tube rolling.
As is always the case, listen to your manufacturer if they provide guidance, especially if by not following said guidance it would void the warranty. I just didn't want the community to believe that future tube maintenance was going to require a trip back to the manufacturer in Poland and the answer is no. Recognize that manufacturers and their role in promoting safety/operability and long term reliability are best served by advising against opening the unit.
I just wanted to make sure the audiogon community wasn't under the impression that the case is sealed, as in impossible to open, versus advising the user base to seek out an audio professional before "fixing" the Amber 3. Peace to all.
In short, if you want to risk voiding your warranty, the Amber 3 can be opened just like other equipment you may have.The difference being that by breaking the seals, there is no turning back. |
Congrats Bob! That’s what this hobby is all about, recreating an event worthy of your attention and I’m thrilled for you that listening to your new dac has brought you joy. Indeed, Grannyring is one of the good guys and there is likely a little "kharmic mojo" goodnesses infused into your new Orchid because of its prior owner.
Happy new year as we all chase the elusive....
|
|
@grannyring How did you have yours configured? Balanced? Single ended? Volume control?
To manage your expectations: Compared to fresh out of the box until the Amber 3 came on to full song was probably 200 hours. I know, that seems like an eternity to us instant gratification types. I left my music server feeding the dac (usb) continuously 23/7 only turning it off for 1 hour per day to allow for thermal/cooldown cycling.
I hope you like it Granny. By the way, its a pain to open the case, I just did it this past weekend: screws on back, screws on underside and the top two on the faceplate, then a little flexing of the case cover to free it from the chassis. 1 12au7 (swapped in an old Mullard longplate from the 1950’s) was like spreading buttah on hot, fresh baked bread! LOL.
Have fun!
|
@grannyring Brent Jesse www.audiotubes.com is a good place for NOS 12au7’s. Forthright to a fault, which is kinda important when you are buying tubes you may not even open for 10 or 15 years....the good news is you just need a really nice single with matched triodes rather than a matched pair with matched triodes. |
@yoyodyne
I have heard the PSAudio dacs a long time ago and I once owned the Schiit Yiggy. The Schiit is a fine dac (not my cup of tea) and while I really like Paul and his no nonsense but considerate demeanor, I don’t believe either of these dacs belong in the same conversation with the Amber 3. Again, my system, my ears, YMMV.
Back to the original topic: the Orchid and the Tubadour are both terrific dacs at their respective pricepoints, the Amber 3 is at another level entirely. Peace.
|
@ralphfennec
Go pound sand...safely
|
@teajay
for those of us keeping score at home, presently in your system, you have a stock Orchid, a stock Amber 3 and the upgraded Tubadour? Then to that trio you inserted temporarily an upgraded Orchid? I just want to understand the sequencing.
On a personal note, thank you for all you do for our hobby.
|
@teajay
Thanks for the reply. I’m not exactly sure why people get angry or snarky, you merely report your observations and we all can either choose to benefit from your findings or not. Its just audio folks. Our own observations may differ or align but isn’t that what’s fun?
Regarding break in, I was always a skeptic but have become a little more open minded about it. Cables, especially if they happen to have inline networks, do take a bit of time. Tube gear, does take a bit of time. Tube gear with tube rectification or tubes in the power supplies seem to take longer still. I dont quite understand why and I used to be mildly dismissive until I experienced my first truly painful break in experience with an Audio Research Ref 5se preamp. I made the assumption it had to do with 4 tubes in the pre and 2 tubes in the power supply.
The most painful break in period though was with the Amber 3. I’m going to guess it was to do with the tube rectification, I don’t know. If someone asked me I would honestly have to say to expect the Amber 3 to come into its own after 400 hours and it still evolves after 500. I know this because I first experienced the Amber 3 in my system by placing a well broken in demo unit into rotation. I then received my brand new unit and it flat out sounded broken. No joke, broken. Today it doesn’t but thats after a long (500+ hours) breakin, a NOS 12au7 tube and setting it to low gain.
It isn’t my lead dac in my main system but it does occupy a place in my office system, anchored by a Leben cs600x. The Amber 3 is a fine dac, the Tubadour is a fine dac, the Orchid is a fine dac as was the Border Patrol. For this system, for what I was after, I sold all of these except the Amber 3. Once again, I wasnt test driving these, I owned them. The cost of entry didnt enter into my decision because (gratefully) this isn’t my rent money. Its entertainment.
BUT...BUT...if anyone reading this believes that any one of the aforementioned dacs is right and the others sound broken, dont believe them. They are each terrific and each suitable for the long term enjoyment of the purchaser. Dont for a minute though believe these are end game giant killer pieces. They are not going to put Aqua or Totaldac or Lampizator or MSB out of business. They are, however, so good that the law of diminishing returns requires a sanity check for each of us. It used to be that dacs up to a certain pricepoint were unlistenable, now, we are lucky that that is no longer the case.
|
Come on guys, lay off @teajay the Lab12 dac was well reviewed by @teajay and it was done in an A vs B vs aural memory of other higher end dacs. He stated his opinion and went on the record. He never said “this is the finest dac that will ever be made” he said “this is a fine dac”. He also never said “I’ve heard everything out there and this is it, the chosen one”.
To his great credit, and this can not be overstated, he has tried other gear and isn’t afraid to say “hey, I heard something better”. To me, this is a big deal and gives his impressions on a given item even more credibility. Unlike many who review gear, he isn’t afraid to say he has heard something he likes better. It doesn’t invalidate his prior reviews, it actually provides context and a hierarchy along his review chronology.
@teajay likes the Tubadour that came his way spontaneously and organically through this forum. That’s awesome guys! For those who are certain that all professional reviewers are “on the take” need only visit this thread to discover, on the contrary, we have someone who was open minded and open to the idea of trying something he hadn’t heard, objectively evaluating it and then going on record. Shouldn’t this be celebrated rather than people taking potshots that he didn’t marry the Lab12 for life?
Keep up the great work @teajay , you have alot of fans out here who appreciate what you are doing, how you go about it and most of all, for posting your opinions here and not just in your writings for web-zines. You and I may not always share the same level of appreciation for certain pieces of gear but most on here aren’t looking for someone to guide their purchase decisions, they are looking for another data point to determine if a test drive would be beneficial. To anyone who bought a Lab12 dac based solely on his review, you got a fine dac. If you are disappointed that he was unwilling to cast his affection for the Lab12 in stone there are many more of us out here who are thrilled that there is a “professional reviewer” categorically willing to tell the truth. Even if it means leaving a former love for a new love.
Thanks @teajay !,,
|
@grannyring
My main dac is presently an Aqua La Scala MkII Optologic with a pair of NOS Mullard 6201 tubes installed. It replaced a Nagra Classic dac which replaced a Totaldac D1-Tube-MkII which replaced a Chord Dave. All have been fed by an Innuos Zenith MkIII via a Final Touch Audio Callisto USB cable. I’ve run it single ended and balanced and the balanced outputs sound ever so slightly better.
The Amber 3 and the La Scala are both terrific, the La Scala is overall more refined. A more elegant top to bottom presentation but there are some areas where the differences are negligible or even in the Amber’s favor(like bass and layering). The Aqua build quality is off the hook good, both dacs have a proven upgrade path.
If you were demoing the La Scala and the Amber 3, single ended, at home and didn’t own either it would be difficult to justify the price differential.
|
The S2 was not great, the S3...I don’t want to offend anyone but its kindof average sounding. I like most of the dacs discussed in this thread better but everyone should trust their own ears. I’m not sure I understand the logic of having that dac on the market at that retail pricepoint. For a company capable of building the La Scala and the Formula, it just doesnt make alot of sense to me. A company’s entry level product ought to be a gateway drug.
|
@facten Not in my system but same system, side by side. I thought the S3 was a fine dac but kindof unremarkable. In short, the La Scala does most everything better to my ears (the S3 MAY have had a slight bass advantage, very slight if at all), especially when it comes to dynamic swings and the music feeling alive rather than just "played back". Maybe 30 minutes on each dac is all that day. I believe the Tubadour is better than the S3 for my tastes. |
Hmmmmm, it would be interesting to know your buddy’s system, soup to nuts, from the wall to the ear. You are correct though, its all a matter of what sounds right to the individual.
I’ve had some great dacs and someone somewhere has declared each of them as end game pieces. That’s why I always try to be objective that every person must make up their own mind and decide what works best in their circumstances: the room, the room, the ac, the cables, the electronic chain, the room....I’m not one of those chasing the latest greatest but I know what I prefer.
I know what music I enjoy sounds like. I had to make a decision a long time ago as I had aspirations of being a professional musician. I got that out of my system pretty quickly as the best in the business had holes in their shoes. Not for me, so I guess I wasn’t driven enough to be a musician if it meant living hand-to-mouth.
Anyway, I guess I’m also a bit of a tube guy as well. Other than my Innuos, every piece of gear I have uses tubes. I keep trying though and the Nagra Classic Dac/Classic integrated got very close for me. Peace.
|
@alexberger
Not directly. I couldn’t fall in love with my Dave, but it was probably just me.
|
The Border patrol accepts a 24/96 feed (and outputs spdif 24/96 on the usb only model) but it only processes 16/44.1 and it STILL sounds better than most dacs on the market. You have a great dac @yoyodyne ! |
Get all three! LOL. Seriously, these are all terrific dacs. Peace to all.
|
