Mainstream Phono Stages Incorporating Premium Branded PCB Parts - Do They Exist?
Outside of Audio Note Kits (ANK), are there any mainstream phono stages (tube or solid state) $5,000/under that incorporate premium branded PCB parts, i.e. Mundorf, Dueland, Tantalum resistors, etc.? There seems to be an abundance of great phono stages available (some with premium pricing) but I haven't found any that include premium branded capacitors, resistors, etc. Maybe I'm old school, but if you're going to charge premium prices for equipment, it should include premium branded parts in the circuit design. Thoughts?
Audio Note as a Company is a little different to other Companies, in the area where Components are concerned, as AN has it own subsidiary Business supplying Components. Much of the AN Component range is classed as a Boutique Selection Part when added into the BOM.
As AN build their devices, adding their range of components makes sense, especially as there is a cost associated with the part that will be quite cheap to them in comparison to other Boutique Parts others might see as attractive.
Additionally the Mark Up added and Volume of sales of the individual components sold to the Public, will be a good buffer to revenues, making the idea of having an in house component department viable and sustainable.
I will say a Company that can be contacted and dialogue started, that is known for producing Phonstages that are well though off, but are Models that has Low Volumes of sales, are a good place to attempt to get what one is search for.
Usually when discussing with a EE/Builder about Boutique Parts the subject of reliability surfaces, as no EE/Builder wants to be shipping their products over long distances to be contacted about issues developing with their products, as a result of using non reliable components when selecting for the Schematic.
If both the inquirer and EE can reconcile on a Part to be used in a Schematic, I'm confident that a Phonstage can be attained with the desired parts used in the circuit.
IMO, after decades of investigating the parts content of preamplifiers (including those that do and do not incorporate phono stages), I’ve come to believe that circuit design is far more important than the content of boutique (means expensive for a hobbyist) parts. Also, you do need to understand the circuit at least superficially in order to make a fair evaluation of parts quality. It makes no sense to use an expensive part in some locations. Also sometimes an expensive part simply won’t fit, e.g., almost any Dueland resistor or a film cap where a high value of capacitance is needed which is best achieved with a much smaller electrolytic. Finally, you mentioned PCBs. What about gear that features point to point wiring, and what about the quality of that wire and of tube sockets, etc? Two companies that pay a lot of attention to such details are Allnic and Atmasphere.
My friend of many years and Designer / Builder of my Power Amp's has not accepted on quite a few occasions my inquiries about swapping out certain Cap's and Resistors for different types than those selected.
The EE, makes it known parts selected have been sent all over the world and used both by Professionals and Audio Enthusiasts, depending on the designs produced.
With no inquiries about Sound Quality Concerns and reports of failures in a circuit after different levels of exposure to usage, encouraging a change of thinking even when relatively local, i.e, a 100ish miles in comparison to 1000's of miles. It still remains a suggestion that is not entertained by the EE.
Recently we have got to the place the Power Amp's will be converted to be both SE and Balanced as a Input / Output.
Recently this EE had a old customer return who had been unimpressed with 300b Power Amp's having been demo'd, where certain models experienced were costing up to £60K.
The Old Customer placed his faith in the EE, and requested a Bespoke Build to meet the brief. For a considerable lesser cost than the bulk of the 300b' Power Amp's having been demo'd, the Customer recently took possession of an Amp' that has blown them away sonically, as for aesthetic Beauty that is always in the eye of the beholder, I have seen an image of the Amp' and it is in keeping with the finished products design styles on offer from this EE.
This same EE is renowned within a small circle of individuals, for the quality of the Phonostages that are able to be produced.
Within this small group who have had commission built Phon's produced, there are a coupe who are not with limits in their spending on their interests. Phon's produced are not with Boutique Parts, but with extremely closely matched parts.
The EE has developed their own designs many years ago and kept close to these.
These designs when on occasion have been A/B compared to extremely expensive Phonostages offered in UK Dealerships and in other Systems have been recognised for their substantial qualities.
I usually have a little regret surface for not creating an off set of income to enable myself to buy into this Phonostage Club, I have never seen one for sale used in all my saved searches on sales Portals.
As this EE is now getting on in Years, I am tempted to ask them to see if a little of their magic can be sprinkled onto my most recent Phon' that I had commission built.
Nothing strange to me in that as a method, as I have a Valve DAC that has the input to the electronics from Two Established Eastern European EE's who's histories have both covered producing Bespoke Valve DAC designs that are known to be competitors to Lampi' designs, but not quite at Lampi' prices.
I appreciate the thoughtful, detailed replies received thus far. The information is very helpful and facilitates my comprehension on the topic. It gives me context as well as increased awareness of the cost/benefit analysis that must occur for any audiophile business trying to remain viable. The comment about "point-to-point" wiring did trigger a thought in my mind about PrimaLuna products which are designed out of the Netherlands, I believe. The new EVO 100 phono stage does feature point-to-point wiring, ceramic tube sockets, Nichicon and DuRoch capacitors, and gold-plated connectors. With that said, using 6922 tubes to increase MC gain in lieu of Lundahl SUT is something to ponder.
"The new EVO 100 phono stage does feature point-to-point wiring, ceramic tube sockets, Nichicon and DuRoch capacitors, and gold-plated connectors. With that said, using 6922 tubes to increase MC gain in lieu of Lundahl SUT is something to ponder."
wescoman-
Evo 100 in my setup for 6 months. I don’t know of a comparable model-all tube dual mono under $4K? I was lucky to find an Ebay listing and negotiate a smokin deal-40% off MSRP.
Circuit design/implementation are what legit audio tech heads seem to agree with.
The "boutique" component thing is just another subjective tweaky audio DIY excercise, like tube rolling?
I did replace the 6922’s with NOS and it doe’s seem to nudge the EVO 100 to more greatness.
Tube MC gain does create additional hiss. The PL however, is quiet at "reasonable levels" to my ears. Noticeably quieter than the 10+ year old all tube unit it replaced.
My most recent experiences of a Phono Cartridge Signal Path is one where Solid Copper Low Eddy RCA Connectors are use on both Cable and Chassis, along with a PC Triple C Wire used through out the signal path after the Carts Lead Out Pins.
This is subjective as an evaluation as already referred to, but in my case has been the most revelatory experience had in many many years in relation to assessing a Phono Performance. The experience has proved to be very cost effective for its capability to easily match an impression recollected through discovering an Audio Device capable of transforming a presentation to the point it is wanted to be kept in service in a system.
I would suggest the exchanging parts and adopting a continuous wire type in the Signal Path, could be a method that falls into the area of being Boutique as a selection.
+ 1 pindac’s observation re: the simplicity of adding low eddy solid copper (or silver!) RCA chassis sockets and cable plugs to give notably greater clarity, openness and purity of sound. (I use ETI silver and gold in different positions in the system with notably satisfying results. Of course there are other producers too. I recommend NOT mixing manufacturers of sockets and plugs. I encountered a potentially catastrophic grounding issue with WBT sockets and ETI plugs ).
You might like to web search "Abbas Audio RIAA Tube Preamplifier EF86 / EL84" and also read his "Philosophy" page. I have one of his DACs, two of his phono stages, and have commissioned a third. There is a cadre of highly satisfied customers around the world. Good luck with your search.
Abbas shares similar origins and design intentions, that are similar to both my own DAC and Phonostage.
Careful selection of Parts, where as the outcome there is a truthfulness brought to mind when heard working within the circuit and closeness of the match for parts is the goal for the designs.
Either of these being experienced in use by myself or others who have heard them in a variety of systems are always making it known of the good impression that has been made.
I appreciate the continued interest in the topic. Many great ideas and perspectives. Having done some additional research, I am intrigued by the Greek-designed Lab12 Melto2 tube phono stage. The circuit design/PCB layout and accompanying components appear impressive. If anyone has experience using this equipment, please share your thoughts. There have been many resales over the past year - not sure if that denotes a pattern/trend or simply individuals testing new products and moving on to other priorities.
If the Vendors of the Lab 12 Phon' are actual enthusiasts who bought into the design, it is hard to suggest the circumstances for selling without inquiring.
Usually a Phon' that has proven to the individual using it to be an end game model, does not get put on sale, and circumstances not related to audio may be the reason for needing the sale to happen.
The OP is making it known they are pleased with the info being shared.
If they are introduced to other options and thoughts on their subject under discussion, is this not what was being requested ?
Products travel far across the Globe, Schematic Design, Topology and reliability of selected components is Key, not the Fancy Name attached to a premium priced component.
My experiences of being demo'd Boutique Parts, has shown at the time of addition and following a period of Burn In. The Demo's ended up with my rejection of expensive parts selected, where original very affordable parts were asked to be reinstated into Audio Products I have had built. The rejected parts and any other down the line parts to be trialed are at my expense. With selected parts needing to be very closely matched, it does not take long for Alternatives bought in become a considerable expense, as a result of the non matching parts being discarded.
I have been able to make these decisions as a result of comparisons available to be had, as more than one Prototype has been produced in Parallel as part of the build intent. On a few occasions the EE Designer / Builder was not able to immediately detect what I was struggling to accept as being an improvement, sometimes the project can be too invested in and becomes personal.
Boutique Parts added to a Circuit is strictly a personal preference for the ones that selected to remain to be used. If channel matching is important to an individual, Boutique Parts Selection can become an extremely expensive venture.
There is not a ubiquitous choice for Boutique Parts, the experiencing them in a circuit is critical to learn what they are able to offer, which is not always going to produce what is the end users preference for the end sound.
I have become settled with to date, the notion that the better end of Audio Equipment EE's, are those that have a substantial experience and really do know how to create an interface of Components and Topology for a Circuit that is capable of producing an end sound that discovers many followers.
When it comes to Mechanical Engineering requirements for a Audio Equipment, there are even less at the better end of being an Engineer. Where the individual are ones who have the known how, to select the most attractive of the modern available materials.
Especially Materials that have inherent properties capable to produce and maintain a design that is with extremely tight dimension tolerances, very low coefficient of friction that is required to create the most optimised mechanical interfaces.
Those who really really know why a particular design must be created are getting rarer. Those who promote their being able to produce their version of a particular design are growing in numbers.
I am not too sure if the the end product from the latter skillsets offerings has the critical quality controls in place that gives the X Factor the former skillsets are renowned for being able to produce.
I recently had the Caps replaced in my SS Amp by the Manufacturer.
Knowing the shipping costs was the larger-half, I decided to have 'upgraded' caps installed. They are Great! quicker attack (but not analytical), better tone, clearer decay. It was one of the 'jaw drop' moments.
In my case, the Manufacture knew exactly which caps would produce better SQ, and it was definitely worth the money.
But you don't know what capacitors were installed(?) If you can say for certain that the amplifier sounds better, presumably after not having heard it for a few weeks while it was away for the upgrade, then the original capacitors might have been very low grade, because one's sonic memory is always to be mistrusted in it's capacity to perceive subtle differences over a time interval. It would be fun to know what capacitors were in there, and what was used to replace them.
My Modwright has proprietary branded caps like Audio Note, from who I dunno. The X upgrade in the PH9.0 in fact removes caps in the signal path. I think it's not just about the caps but where they are in the signal path.
At this price point I would trust the makers to know what works and what doesn't.
Would I have gone into my Tavish Adagio and the Modwright to upgrade caps? Hell no! I know of at least one maker who didn't believe more expensive caps made any significant difference. As long as they were polypropylenes they were good to go.
While my experiments with caps have yielded some good results (EAR834 clone) I would rather depend on the circuit rather than the type of caps that are in there, especially a phono stage.
A fast look shows that Luxman used MCaps in the EQ500, but the basic caps, not any SGOs. At least one other phono pre used proprietary branded caps but I don't remember who.
I think higher end caps just force makers to raise prices without any real advantages in sound quality.
My experiences of assessing Component Changes, ie, Cap' Resistor, Valve Bases used on a Phon' I own.
Is that. Certain changes produced an end sound that had increased perceptions of Honesty, where the end sound produced was not what would be referred to as a ' betterment', but one that can be referred to as more believable. This type of assessment is very Subjective and will not find unaminous agreement, even though I have been a witness to some who have changed their thoughts about their initial assessment.
Where their decision has been to change parts We'd to at a earlier time.
As said previously, a SS Phon' I experienced from concept to production, become a Phon' that was making a very good impression.
When this Phon' was experienced using Low Eddy RCA connections on both Cable and Chassis, along with PC Triple C Wire used from Cart' Pins through to Power Amp'. The experiencing this change to the Signal Path has been substantial for the better and very worthy of achieving in my home system.
Atmasphere use teflon film and foil capacitors to couple one stage to another where it is necessary to block DC. Typically they use the VCap brand, which at least for the hobbyist like me are among the most expensive. And coupling capacitors are the most critical in the signal path. In general, teflon film and foil capacitors are most expensive, made by VCap (or whoever makes them for "VCap"), Solens, and RELcap, so far as I know. There’s also Mundorf film and foil using various kinds of foil. Metallized film capacitors can sometimes be excellent although few of them are high in cost. Dynamicap, Auricap,etc., are good brands. REL are always decent. I also like polystyrene film and foil capacitors but they seem to be nearly out of production in high voltage ratings. REL makes them too. You can get them with 100V ratings and maybe a bit higher for solid state applications. Texas Instruments "nude" bulk foil resistors (TX2575) are very transparent and cost about $12 and up, each. Dueland resistors are even much more expensive but so large as to be useful mostly in speaker crossovers. Also excellent and cheaper than TX are Caddock TF020, sold by M Percy, and tantalum resistors, probably in that order of excellence. You want the best possible resistor in phono loading and at the interface between stages. These are brands to look for in tube gear. In SS gear, which is nearly always on a PCB, you will find SMDs (Surface Mount Devices). These are tiny resistors/capacitors, and their use minimizes inductance in the circuit, because there is practically no space between them. I’m sure I am missing some pointers here. In my experience, using good parts, that may or may not be "expensive", is more important than, for example, tube rolling. For one thing, tubes age and change inevitably over time. A good film cap is nearly forever, unless it sees a voltage much higher than its rating, which only happens if some other part goes bad. Resistors are less profound, except as phono load resistance.
Thanks for the thoughts, but it seems odd to me that you would jump to such conclusions with so little information.
To address each point:
1st - Yes, I do know exactly which Caps were installed.
2nd - Yes, I do. The difference in SQ created by the new caps is profound, not subtle. (strike two)
3rd - The original caps were the standard caps for this Ayre Acoustics V-5xe (~ $5K Stereophile "Class A') amp. This preamp was, and still is, very well regarded. The new, higher-line caps only made it better. So, again, it is not clear why you would suggest that they 'might have been 'very low grade' (strike three).
If you want a photo of the new caps, just send a PM.
Returning to @Wescoman's original question, my answer remains that the original manufacturer may be a great source for identifying higher-line parts (often from that manufacturer's higher product-line), and thus, maintain the intended SQ qualities.
Furthermore, because these 'higher-line' were originally evaluated by the manufacturer, in their topologies, they may actually sound better than other, random premium-branded parts.
I extend my sincere thanks to everyone who replied. The myriad (and scope) of responses reflect a keen interest in the topic. As a result, I'm better informed and acknowledge my naïveté regarding audio equipment design, product manufacturing, and quality control initiatives impacting signal quality. The cost/benefit analysis and technical knowledge required to be successful in the business is substantial. I learned much from the discussion. Much appreciated!
My Experience had and the one which produced a Phonostage that I was not only happy to support being built, but also extremely satisfied with owning. Took place when I rolled the dice on two components.
I bought in a Copper Foil Cap' at a value the EE was extremely reluctant to use, and Z Foil Resistors that the EE was reluctant to use because of cost in relation to parts and discard from matching.
The Copper Cap's produced the smile, usually seen when things liven up.
The addition of the Z Foils produced the Cheshire Cat Grin, that is the sign I am selling my soul to get this one.
In my case the addition of a Particular Brands Design for a Resistor brought the End Sound to one I was not willing to be without.
This Phon' has been demo'd to quite a few individuals who have been very vociferous with appraisal given. I would suggest the Subjective Evaluation is more of a Collective Evaluation, where findings are notable.
Pindac, if you are referring to copper foil in oil capacitors, especially those marketed under the Jansen (sp?) or AN name, I have found them to be unreliable when asked to tolerate voltages that are "high" in a tube circuit, but well within their stated ratings. Thus there is no excuse. I have had two catastrophic failures, and now I don’t use them. In a solid state design, where voltages are much lower and way below the voltage rating, perhaps there is no danger. Otherwise, yes, they sound good.
The Z foil resistors I believe are the same as the TX2575 resistors I mentioned, I think. I associate them with Vishay and used to call them "nude Vishay" resistors. Somehow Texas Instruments markets them at least in the US. Historically, I think they are like Vishay S102 resistors which have/had a plastic casing around the resistive element. Turns out they sound much better "nude". But very expensive.
A local dealer has electronics built for him according to his rough specifications on design and his choice of parts. From years of experience, he knows what parts he likes in the electronics, but, the process still involves parts swapping to get his idea of the right sound. This may or may not involve expensive boutique parts. I saw a speaker under construction where one week, the crossover contained a very expensive vintage paper in oil cap, but the next week it had been replaced with a modern film cap; I joked that he was cheapening the design, but, he replied that the prospective buyer wanted a different sound that the modern cap would supply and that it wasn't really that cheap a part (it was a $400 per piece capacitor).
This same dealer sold his own proprietary amplifiers. I was asked to give comments on a particular amp, and I had to frankly state that it was far from his best effort. He laughed because it was an amp that his customer had sent to an "upgrader" who filled it with expensive Blackgate caps thereby ruining the sound. The customer was also disappointed with the upgrade and brought it in for the dealer to undo the damage. This dealer often gets in brand representatives who want him to listen to something that he might carry in his store. He has correctly identified parts in the electronics from their sonic signature; he can tell when Mundorf caps are in an amp or speaker; he thoroughly hates their sound.
The right part may be a boutique, expensive thing, or it may be something cheap and common; good designer/builders listen and pick what sounds best.
There were a few Brands of Copper Cap's, which were used at a few different values in the same place on the schematic prior to my bringing in one other Brand, that came as a Brand recommended from a small group on a Forum who produce some very attractive Low Watt Tube Amp's.
The Copper Cap's were from Audyn, and as stated purchased at a operational value lesser than already used, and was a difficult part to get the EE to buy into.
It got the Stage, where the exchanges were my Amp' being designed, my choices matter as well. I am not a EE minded person, I rejected all opportunities to be taught EE Skills many years ago. The choice paid off, and took the Amp' from being Solid Footed to Fleet Footed.
The Z Foils brought the ethereal qualities where the Soundstage had a few more Pumps of air added and became more voluminous in all dimensions, with a much more believable Coherence Across the Frequencies, with the Attack - Micro Details and body of the notes and vocal becoming quite noticeable for presence and impression made.
Yes, it was aa Audio Note capacitor used in lieu of a Western Electric paper in oil. It’s hard to believe, but there are much more expensive capacitors sold by Audio Note. Deja Vu uses what works for their sound, so the parts mix includes crazy expensive parts and very cheap parts, and even parts that are old and test bad but sound good (e.g., old vintage caps with high DC leakage which is not relevant in crossover usage).
A customer with multiple Deja Vu custom-built systems was fuming mad because some very cheap look binding posts with ugly plastic covers over thin and tiny brass metal fittings were installed on a very premium amplifier. The customer insisted on something “better.” Vu was tempted to not allow the customer to buy the amp because he was unworthy of such an amp (Seinfeld Soup Nazi: “No soup for you”), but compromised when he found some nice looking and not too bad sounding binding posts (something like WBT pure silver binding posts). I heard a great sounding system there that had a vintage field coil driver that now sells for more than $30,000 per pair matched with $100 tweeters; its all about the results.
I used to frequent the store on rte 123. Vu is a nice guy. But his shtick (tube SE amps driving hyper-efficient electromagnetic speakers)and my shtick (OTLs with ESLs) are very different.
He used to have a Russian guy who built those custom SE amps.
Because the builds can be for a specific customer’s needs, there are some quite odd pieces out there, like a single chassis holding a phono stage and crossover. This reminds me of an establishment in the M.A.S.H. novel: Finest Kind Pediatric Hospital and Whorehouse.
I have a custom built linestage by their Italian builder that has a transformer output that is intended to match with the transformer inputs on my amp which is a copy of a Western Electric 133 amp; my amp has original Western Electric input and output transformers. Many of the other parts are vintage as well. The big challenge with this sort of build is finding matching parts, particularly because the only way to know that a part is good is to try it in-circuit.
One afternoon at DeJaVu Audio, I listened to a pair of Audio Note speakers, I think their model E, if that makes sense, being driven first by an AN Kegon amplifier (for sale then at ~$125K) and then by the AN Ongaku (probably around $80K). This was at least 20 years ago, so maybe prices are higher now if those amplifiers are still in production. Anyway, they both sounded very good, but there was a distinct difference between them having to do with tonal balance. I cannot recall exactly how they differed in their presentation of music on a speaker presumably designed to accommodate both, but my thought was if there is such a thing as "perfection", ought these two amplifiers to be nearly identical in sound quality? Anyway, if expensive parts per se are the way to Nirvana, surely AN products ought to be on the way.
The Link will also show one more modern take on a Boutique Component.
I myself have similar plans for a particular component to be used on my Pre Amp Build, one just can't get enough ideas from one source about where to utilise Panzerholz.
The ever growing band of advocates is marching on.
I second Groovey on the SunValley Phono stage. If you get it prebuilt in Japan, it comes with VCaps and all the other internal components are pretty good quality. The only downside of it is the MC section which is terrible. Otherwise, top notch. Don Sachs made (or maybe still makes) a phono stage where he uses the best components he can find. If you want a balanced phono stage, Atma-Sphere makes one as an option for his line stage.
Your first priority after deciding on your budget should be -
Does it meet your needs taking into account your cartridge and the ensuing line stage.
Sound quality ( in your system )
Build quality
Unfortunately therein lies the rub - what is build quality.
As a distributor some years ago of very high end I can tell you that I have seen numerous products - at around US$5k-$7k retail price where the product is full of dry joints ( poor solder joints ). Products that reviewed exceptionally well, products including a top phono stage used and endorsed by Michael Bremer, built poorly.
Secondly - designers may choose components for their electrical characteristics - a seemingly run of the mill quality cap may be chosen over an audiophile equivalent, not for cost purposes, but for specific electrical characteristics the designer wants.
Thirdly, I have seen many products with fake boutique audiophile components in them. The marketer sends the product in for review, and thereafter the production samples are not built to the same standard.
Over the years I have seen products that have had significant circuit changes and cost reductions ( power supply capacitance etc ) post the review.
Unfortunately I also have seen many audiophiles replacing components, not understanding the circuit and its requirements, and actually making the product worse.
This is our own fault as audiophiles demanding jewellery and "audiophile components".
In terms of manufacturing I can tell you first hand that many famous manufacturers have been advised by retailers "your product sounds fantastic, but for us to sell it we need xxx caps, yyy bindings posts, mmm brand wiring, gold plated this and that".
We get what we ask for in many instances - stuff that looks pretty, that has all the audiophile jewellery, but sounds average or worse, is unreliable.
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