Lumin T2 burn in time?

Sorry to say, if it don't sound good right out of the box it might as well go right back into the box. Because it ain't gonna get all that much better. Yeah sure it will change. Duh. It will open up, become more refined. But the fundamental character will be heard right out of the box. You are now at three days. Oh well.

When I purchased my Lumin U1 I was told by the manufacturer's rep that 500-600 hrs were needed for burn-in.  However my unit sounded great out of the box and I can't say I really noticed much of an improvement over time.  The U1 is a digital transport/streamer only - no DAC.  It actually made every aspect of my non-Lumin DAC sound better, including the bass.  I suspect it's the DAC portion of your T1 that is responsible for what you're finding objectionable.  I like to keep the streamer/transport separate from the DAC to give more flexibility, and in fact I'm now moving towards a Lampizator DAC that I will pair with my U1.

T2 owner here. My Lumin sounded good right out of the box. One of the things it does exceptionally well is dynamics and bass. You may have poor system synergy. IMO, the Lumin app is well thought out and took me a couple of days to figure out all its features. I enjoy the absence of a "remote" since the iPad and iPhone are so easy to use.

I've listened to the T2 and did not find it lacking bass.  I have a TEAC NT-505, which is further down the pecking order (Lumin/TEAC/Esoteric are all part of the same company) and there are no issues with lack of bass in it either.  Sound quality has not changed in any noticeable way since I first got it. 

 Your unit may have an issue, or the Cambridge Audio unit may emphasize bass and after hearing that it seems like something is "missing".

Are you using a preamp or are you connecting the Lumin directly to your amp?
I purchased my T2 in January.  I initially thought is was a little harsh and thin sounding on some music.  However, after a month or so , the harshness went way and dynamics improved.  Bass is very deep and defined.
i also like using the app instead of a remote as I always have my phone or iPad with me when using the Lumin.

I have my Lumin T2 connected to a preamp.   I don't find the Lumin harsh, but I do find it a little thin sounding.   I do like the details and the spaciousness.   Bass is definitely lacking some slams, as compared to my Cambridge Audio 851N.   I'm hoping it will improve after burn in.   It would be a shame if it doesn't, because I do like a lot of the SQ about this unit.

xcool, please keep us posted as you get more hours on the unit.

I have mine connected that way as well.  Not sure if your preamp  applies any DSP,  but  I noticed a big difference In sound quality when  I set my preamp in digital bypass mode,  which eliminates all of the  DSP and  sends an unaltered  analog signal directly to the amp.  You might try it that way and see if you notice a difference.  I also thought the Lumin’s tone changed slightly after about 200 hours.

I have a T2 that is barley 24 hours old, It sounds great. It has the same DAC chip as my previous Wyred 4 Sound unit (Saber) but with all the streaming features. I am not as happy with the Lumin app, I have finally got it figured out. It should have been ways easier. It is not very user friendly. I was used to the OPPO app it was super simple to use. I find the Lumin barley tolerable. Maybe they will tune it up some day. It could be a deal breaker for me very unhandy.

hi @bwguy my preamp is pure analog, so no DSP processing.  Right now,  I'm just going to let it run continuously for another week and see how it goes.   Like I said earlier, SQ wise, I like everything about the T2, except I wish the bass is a little more pronounced.

As with the app, it's actually not so bad when it is WORKING.   Unfortunately,  it seems very unstable.  It quits (or crashes) all the time.   Sometimes when I restart the app, it won't connect properly, and I can't even control the playlist.   I really don't like the fact that the app is the only option to use this unit.   With the Cambridge Audio I have,  I only use the app to construct the playlist that I want to listen to, and even this step I can do it without the app.   I can do everything else via infrared remote, like start, stop, skip, and rewind, etc. 

If my experience with the app doesn't improve, it might be another show stopper for me to keep this unit.

XCool, I found the Lumin app to be very stable, never dropping out or buffering. Is your wireless set up robust? What you described with the Lumin app suggests a network issue not the app.

I felt the same way you did at first, but now I am really happy with it.  Are you using IOS or Android for the app?  I think IOS works much better for some reason.  The app works great 99% of the time for me.  Every once in while I have to close the app and re-open it, but it is rare.
You might email Peter from Lumin, and ask if he has any suggestions.   He is their head programmer and is very responsive.  His email is LiOn@pixelmagic.com 

I know Lumin did a firmware update at the beginning June.  You may want to confirm you have it.

@big_greg   How do you have the impression LUMIN is a part of TEAC/Esoteric? I thought LUMIN is a part of Pixel Magic Systems in Hong Kong, whereas TEAC is part of TEAC Group (along with Tascam & Esoteric) in Japan.  

@rockrider I believe you are correct.  The Lumin and Esoteric apps both work with my TEAC NT-505 and are almost to identical to each other (and TEAC's HR Streamer app) and I thought they were all part of the same company.

Ah, interesting @big_greg. Thanks!

I am currently running the latest firmware. I think @tuberist might have a point about network. My network does have issues sometimes. Spectrum is the provider, and I can’t tell you how much I dislike them. Don’t get me started...

My Lumin X1 sounded absolutely dire straight out of the box. I was going to send it back. For the first couple of weeks it sounded like crap and I thought I had made a huge mistake.
My dealer persuaded me to stick with it, and it took over a month before it started to sound good, and now after a few months it sounds amazing.

@rossb You would think Lumin would have figured out to pre-burn the units before shipping.

Anyone using a Lumin with a preamp try the Leedh volume control?

No, have not tried the Leedh volume control.   Is it supposed to be good?

Thanks @rossb It’s good know burning in does improve the sound.   i’m keeping my hopes up.  

A lot of people on other audiophile sites such as AudioShark claim they think it provides for an even better sound. By using Leedh, You put your preamp in unity gain and control the volume using the Lumin app.  By doing this, it basically takes the preamp out if the chain.  Many claim it sounds like a veil has been lifted and is even more clear.  I have tried it but not sure if I can tell a difference.

Hi xcool.I’m from LUMIN and I just wanted to add a little info.

Firstly LUMIN is manufactured by Pixel Magic Systems and is totally independent of any other company. The LUMIN App is our creation. Esoteric, TEAC and others licence the App from us to use with their streaming products.

iOS is our primary development platform. It is very stable on iPhone and iPad.
If instability exists, please try a restore - this cleanly installs all apps and can resolve some issues. The only performance requirement is regarding cache. LUMIN App is unique in it’s local storage of album artwork - for large libraries with high resolution artwork, this can require quite a bit of storage - most devices have large storage these days, but our App works back to older devices too (when storage might only be 16GB), so it’s worth bearing in mind.

Android is trickier, as there are far more variations between vendors and Android implementations. Testing is much harder, but we believe we have now reached a level of stability that should provide trouble-free playback for most. Again, the app is quite sophisticated in it’s interactions with the device, so clean systems are beneficial.

Because we use the OpenHome standard (UPnP AV) for streaming, for people who don’t get along with our app for playback you can also use other UPnP apps such as Kazoo, BubbleUPnP and others. Some are free.
LUMIN App is required for changing system settings and for firmware upgrades, but playback can be achieved with any of these apps.

Regarding burn-in. We get a broad spread of customer opinions on this, but we seem to have settled on advising about a week of 24/7 playing using a playlist on repeat containing a variety of music resolutions before critical analysis. Your amplifier doesn’t need to be on during this time, so it can be done silently overnight.
We have reports of improvements after even longer than that, but certainly the first couple of hundred hours is worthwhile.

Hope that helps.

thingswelike,
I have just sent you a PM. Please respond.

ozzy

What settings are you using? I have a D2 and also going through a preamp, mine are:
Volume Control: Off
Analog Audio Output Level: Low
De-Emphasis for 44.1kHz CD Files: Off
Digital Audio Output: Off
MQA Mode: Analog Output
Ultra-sonic Filter for DSD Playback: Off
Re-Sampling: Off

Just in case one of these is the culprit. I realize it’s not the same as the T2, but bass has been quite good for me. I really haven’t tried toggling these other than setting the output to low gain and turning off volume control otherwise the gain through my preamp cranked the volume to insane levels, as it is I don’t go above 1/3 otherwise neighbors get super grumpy. Anyway hoping it’s just a toggle setting. Oh my use case is 99% stream tidal hifi/master.

Hi @thingswelike thanks for the lengthy reply.   I'll try to take a look at your suggestion.

BTW, I have another comment about the Lumin App.   It's about the implementation of the "shuffle/random" feature of the playlist.

First of all, when the shuffle feature is turned on, the current playlist is still displayed in the original insertion order, and I noticed that some songs can possible be selected more than once before the playlist is finished.   Also, you have no idea what the next song will be ahead of time.   It seems to me that the shuffle implementation picks the next song randomly when the current song is finished, therefore it is possible that a song can be played more than once.  Am I correct with my observation?

I'm comparing your implementation against something like the Cambridge Audio app.  In the Cambridge implementation, when shuffle feature is turned on, the current playlist gets randomized and displayed in this new randomized order.  You know exactly what the next song will be, and also the same song will not be played more than once before all the songs in the playlist have been played.

Your comment on this will be appreciated.  Thanks.

Thanks for your comments xcool. I'm not entirely sure of our shuffle method, but I'll pass your comments on to the team.
I'll be honest - shuffle and repeat aren't part of my normal playing style, so I haven't observed different implementations.
Can I ask - on the Cambridge app - when you turn shuffle off, does the playlist go back to how it was before?

Hi @thingswelike Thanks for the reply.   

Yes, on the Cambridge app, the playlist goes back to insertion order when you turn off the 'shuffle' feature.

Thanks!

Thingswelike,
Does changing the output setting from normal to low on my Lumin T2 change any of the dynamics, or does it simply lower the volume. I noticed The specs on my Classe processor say maximum XLR analog input is 4VRMS (which I think is voltage). I believe the low output On the Lumin T2 is also 4 volts. If I set it to low output, am I losing any data?

Firstly for the proper LUMIN support channels you are best emailing info@luminmusic.com as that gets distributed to the correct expert technician (which is definitely not me), however...

Hi bwguy - no compromise with setting it low.
Another way is to connect with RCA instead of XLR - that has the lower voltage anyway. If possible you could compare both.

Hi,  I just want to give an update to everyone on this thread on the Lumin T2 after a little over 2 weeks of burning in.

I have to say the T2 is sounding much better now.  Bass has definitely improved, and the overall sound is just so 'sweet', for a lack of better word.   I am really liking the sound of this unit.  The treble is not harsh or bright and bass goes pretty low.   Overall it is very musical, and enjoyable to listen to.   I think this is going to be a keeper for me.   Now I wonder how much better the X1 sounds at 3 times the price.   Anyone here who has heard both the T2 and X1 cares to comment?

There are still a few things I would like to see, and hopefully the Lumin team will consider it for the next version:

- more robust Lumin app.   I'm still losing connection to the unit every so often, and it's annoying as hell.  

- The Lumin app is actually not bad to use.  It is pretty fast when it is working.   There is one feature that I wish Lumin team would consider re-implementing and that is the 'shuffle' feature.  I had already described it in one of my previous posts in this thread.

- consider adding a desktop version of the app.

- Add infrared remote capability to the unit.   I'm talking just a handful of convenient features like starting, stoping, pausing, skipping, rewinding songs, powering on/off the unit, and for bonus, ability to scroll up and down the playlist.   I still find it annoying to always have to go to my phone for simple control.  I prefer to just use a remote control instead of reaching for my phone.  Simple things like dimming the display takes a handful of steps to get to.   I understand the Lumin team is probably trying to keep the unit as simple as possible, and I get that.  I think the unit looks simple and beautiful.  I am not asking for buttons on the front panel, but a simple infrared sensor.   I am willing to pay up to $1000 more for this addition.

Anyway, this is a great sounding unit from Lumin at a reasonable price tag for the sound quality that it delivers.  Kudos to the Lumin team.  Well done!

@xcoolHave you considered buying a relatively cheap tablet for dedicated use controlling your T2?  I really enjoy mine, and keep it propped up in view to see what’s playing. It’s always there when you need it, like an infrared remote, but so much more useful. Then, if you are not near the tablet you can also pull out your phone as well. I have found that both can be active at the same time. 

Thanks @rockrider Not a bad suggestion at all.  I have 2 iPads at home but they are primarily used by my daughter and my wife.   Can you recommend a cheap tablet?  I'm an Apple user, but as you know, Apple stuff are never cheap :-(

I went with a $300 iPad since I’m an Apple guy too. That seems relatively cheap compared to the $1000 you were willing to pay for an IR remote. :^}  There are much less expensive Android tablets available, but I chose to stay with Apple to avoid the learning curve. 

Hi there

Wow, I'm so glad, that I found your thread. I have exactly the same problem.

I have a Cambridge Audio 851N and want to upgrade to a better one. So I got a new Lumin T2 from a hifi store for testing at home.

Great dynamic and precise sound quality. But thin in the bass and to cold in the general timbre. I really hope, that this gets better when it is burnt in.

What was your story with the Lumin T2?

Hey @edin123 check out one of my last posts in this thread.   The Lumin T2 did sound better after some initial burn in and the bass had improved.   I think the Lumin crew recommended at least 200 hours of burn in.  I also added a sBooster power supply later on, and it seems to improve the bass further, but not drastically though.

Overall I'm very happy with the Lumin T2.  I'm now waiting to see if Lumin will be updating their flagship DAC X1, perhaps a X2, in the near future.   When that happens, I will consider upgrading my T2 to the latest and greatest model.

Agree with the above.  I initially thought I made a mistake buying the T2 2 years ago.  Although detailed, It sounded a little bright with thin bass.  After a couple of months it smoothed out and gives me great sound.  I am very happy with it.  I also want to eventually upgrade to the X1, or the X2, whenever that may be announced.

Thanks for your feedback, guys.

I have a pair of B&W 803D3 and a Accuphase E-480 Amplifier which both are on the analytic side of the sound spectrum. So I was not sure, if with the Lumin T2 it would be too analytic, too sharp and cool.

But it gives me hope. :-) 

I'm burnin in the Lumin for two days now and think, that it opened up already a little bit in the bass.

And maybe, I have to optimized the system with the XLR and LS cables, too get the final percents of warmth in it.

For your info: The T2 definitely got the warmth and powerful bass that I missed in the beginning. After 2 days of burning in I can hear a big difference!

Two days ago, before the T2 was burnt in, my old Cambridge 851N sounded a lot warmer than the Lumin.

Now when I compare them, the timbre of the Lumin is now even warmer than the 851N. Crazy, I didn't believe that it would make such a difference.

Lumin should write that on the box! ;-)

Great.  I'm glad you're liking it!   The Lumin T2 is definitely a great product!  I recently upgraded my cable from my T2 to my preamp and also from preamp to power amp, and it hugely improved the bass.  I'm now a happy camper.

Enjoy you Lumin T2!

Yes, cables do a lot and I definitely can improve my XLR NF-cable. That is the first thing, that I will check with a good XLR from a friend.

Surely, I will check other LS-cables too to optimize the whole sound picture.

And another step would be a line filter to supply the whole system with clean and constant power.

Lumin should write that on the box! ;-)

Unfortunately, for every user who thinks it’s important info, there is another that thinks that we are perpetuating a lie as they don’t believe burn-in exists. We’ve even been told that it’s a ’con’ to get people to keep players longer so that they get used to them.
Your comparison with another player over time is a great illustration of why we say not to judge 'out-of-the-box'.

Thankfully our dealers are very good at communicating this when people buy players.

We have included some info on it in the manual here:
https://luminmusic.com/manual/running-in.html

Really glad you are enjoying your T2!

 

It think it's alway good to stick to the truth. :)

There are always people who don't hear any difference, because they have a system, that is not on the level to reproduce these details or they simple never tried it. (or their ears are too weak ;) )

To the guys on the Lumin team. When I subscribed to Tidal I made up a playlist I could easily add to it  and when playing the list it would play one song after the other. When I transfer the list to you Lumin app all on my songs have different numbers in front of them. Some of theses numbers are repeated multiple times. So I play the first song and it immediately stops after each song and will not play the next one. Not an issue in the Tidal app. So now I realize there Is something going on in a screen to my left. Sometimes a few songs appear in there. So I soon realize you can recreate your playlist such that it is numbered one after the other. So one day the magical list appears in the left screen and I have no idea wether I accidentally put it there. So who cares hear we go.There  is also a place to delete so I’ma happy man . Next day I go to get the list and it’s gone. The old crappy original one is still to my left with my magical list somewhere in cyberspace. Why not write out a simple K.I.S.S list of step-by-step instructions to get a working list up and running. If I add new tunes to my Tidal app is there a way to get them into my Lumin playlist. Also some feature explanations like why when I press and hold the picture of the album covers does a bunch of squares pop up with lots of lines in them. These are great products and I like them. I think that your app is rated at 3 stars should give you a hint. I am willing to believe if people were able to go through that app in an effortless manner a lot more of your products would be sold. And really do we have to go looking for other apps to run your app. We all have enough problems.These are also really expensive products . You owe it to your customers to get them up and running in as painlessly a manner as possible 

 

 

Hi tah800

Sorry to hear that you are finding the app difficult.
There are sections in the online manual to cover most things here: https://luminmusic.com/manual

A good starting point for what you describe above is here:
https://luminmusic.com/manual/app-introduction.html

The main thing to know is that LUMIN will only play tracks from its own playlist.
This is the list shown on the left on tablet, or in the middle screen on phone.
If something is playing on LUMIN, then it has been added to this playlist.

The icons at the bottom of it let you save, load and delete these LUMIN Playlists.

To get things into the playlist, you need to use the browse window first. Selecting them will move them into the Playlist. Depending on your settings, there are different ways that tracks move across. Some people requested that adding a track also adds the whole album, so there are options for that, as well as selecting multiple tracks. This is explained in more detail halfway down this page:
https://luminmusic.com/manual/app-browsing.html

If you use TIDAL playlists as your primary music organisation method, then you might prefer using TIDAL Connect (if you have a more recent LUMIN Model). It really depends if you also use locally stored music, or other streaming services and want to mix playlists.

If not using TIDAL Connect, read on.

You can add a whole TIDAL playlist to your LUMIN Playlist from within the app by browsing TIDAL > My Music > Playlists.
Then you can press and hold on the whole playlist to add it to the LUMIN Playlist.
Depending on which button you press it will add to the end/current position or replace the whole playlist.
The button icons are described on that link above too.

What isn't possible is that when you add tracks to a playlist in TIDAL, it will automatically add them to the LUMIN one - you'd have to navigate to and press and hold the playlist again.

For details on how to save/load playlists see here:
https://luminmusic.com/manual/app-playlist.html

The only thing I wasn't sure on was why a playlist might have disappeared. But perhaps it was just confusion between seeing the browse window and seeing the playlist window. As mentioned in the manual, getting an overview of the app is best done on tablet if possible.

I hope that's helped a bit, but hopefully a good read of the manual will help further.
Our support team don't monitor Audiogon, so if you need more direct help please use the support email address on our website.

@thingswelike Happy Lumin T2 owner here. I do agree with others above, that playlist organization is not a strong suit of the Lumin app. And I too struggled the first few days understanding the concept of adding tracks to a playlist to get them to play one song to the next. Coming from Blue Sound it just didn't make sense. I've seen this complaint from numerous others all across the web.

Why isn't Lumin listening? I think the whole app is due for a complete redesign/ rethink.

That said, I do love my T2. It's gotten to the point that I rarely look at the digital section of this forum. It just doesn't interest me. Now my focus is listening to the music. The T2 will likely be my streamer for life.

Cheers,
Joe

Hey @tah800, I actually think the lumin app is pretty good once you get used to it.  I especially like the pop up menu from any song on the playlist or the browse window to search for a song, album, or artist.   Sometimes you hear a song you like and want to see what other albums or songs does the artist have, or sometimes you might like to see if there are other covers of a particular song.   I think that's a great feature and it saves a lot of time.  I'm talking about using Tidal here.  This feature doesn't apply to Spotify.

The one thing I don't like which I already mentioned in this post is the 'shuffle/random' feature.  It is just poorly implemented.  Hey @thingswelike, are there any chance that you guys are going to fix the 'random' play feature?  Thanks.

I'll pass on your thoughts to the team.

@xcool What is it about the 'random' play that you don't like? That's the first time I've heard it criticised.
Can you describe a test that would be repeatable by the support team?

HI @thingswelike, I’m cutting and pasting from my earlier post in this thread on the ’shuffle’ feature. Thanks!

For testing, just play a list of songs and turn on shuffle mode, and see if you can hear a song repeated before the current playlist is finished. I’m a software engineer myself, so I would say just look at the code, and see how the shuffle feature is implemented. If the logic does not keep a list of already played songs, then randomly picking the next song can possibly pick a song that’s already been played. My preferred logic for this feature is to first randomize all the songs and create a playlist in this randomized order and play from start to finish. If new songs are added to the playlist while it is still playing, then I would say re-randomize all the songs that haven’t been played plus the newly added songs.

Anyway, this is my original post on this issue. Thanks again!

"BTW, I have another comment about the Lumin App. It’s about the implementation of the "shuffle/random" feature of the playlist.

First of all, when the shuffle feature is turned on, the current playlist is still displayed in the original insertion order, and I noticed that some songs can possible be selected more than once before the playlist is finished. Also, you have no idea what the next song will be ahead of time. It seems to me that the shuffle implementation picks the next song randomly when the current song is finished, therefore it is possible that a song can be played more than once. Am I correct with my observation?

I’m comparing your implementation against something like the Cambridge Audio app. In the Cambridge implementation, when shuffle feature is turned on, the current playlist gets randomized and displayed in this new randomized order. You know exactly what the next song will be, and also the same song will not be played more than once before all the songs in the playlist have been played."