Mapman whats missing- realistic sound quality, the ability to allow listener to feel the emotion of the music. The ability to easily hear the mix ie pick out the individual instruments and vocals along with the added studio work. Realistic image size and dynamic range.The at ease at any SPL the ability to sound wonderful out of sweet spot and through out home. Extreme lack of listening fatigue. A clear real sounding vocal ability the ability to do this all on massively low power. Extreme reliability and ease of service in field by owner. Today most all of this is missing and if present only a small part of it.
Loudspeakers have we really made that much progress since the 1930s?
Since I have a slight grasp on the history or loudspeaker design. And what is possible with modern. I do wonder if we have really made that much progress. I have access to some of the most modern transducers and design equipment. I also have large collection of vintage. I tend to spend the most time listening to my 1930 Shearer horns. For they do most things a good bit better than even the most advanced loudspeakers available. And I am not the only one to think so I have had a good num of designers retailers etc give them a listen. Sure weak points of the past are audible. These designs were meant to cover frequency ranges at the time. So adding a tweeter moves them up to modern performance. To me the tweeter has shown the most advancement in transducers but not so much the rest. Sure things are smaller but they really do not sound close to the Shearer. http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/lmco/shearer.htm
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john, We’ll have to agree to disagree on that, much of which is very subjective. I experience all those things regularly on both my own and other systems I hear with modern speaker technology. Doing it with low power these days is perhaps the biggest challenge because most people do not want or have room for very large highly efficient full range speakers. But still I have heard some like that at shows. Again changing times and different needs. But I understand and share the nostalgia for quality innovative products of the past. A Victrola is one of the things on my bucket list and I do have a soft spot for tube gear still and an interest at least in high efficiency speakers. |
Johnk gave a good description of the sonic advantages of good vintage speakers, one borne out in my experience as well. I would just emphasize the realistic dynamic swings that a good vintage speaker can provide, both low-level, subtle shifts in dynamics, and loud-level dynamic peaks. All without sounding stressed or compressed. |
Innovation in any field addresses the changing needs or wants of the times. Any "good reasons" may not be at service in search of the very best in audio reproduction, but seems more a consequence of how to work around obstacles that are also associated with convenience, size constraints, consumption issues, design demands, etc; oftentimes status quo is the desired goal, if it even is. I’m not saying there isn’t innovation at play here (no pun intended), on the contrary, but to simply bow to this kind of innovation as "the good reason" is to potentially shortchange the goal into audio reproduction and its further developement, as I see it. I can’t speak for johnk, but perhaps part of what he finds "has been forgotten" may be addressed in Robert Harley’s review of Magico’s statement product, "Ultimate" (the only horn speakers in their product range): Clearly, loudspeakers are a major source of detail erasure. It’s easy to imagine how large and complex power amplifiers, which must convert a low-level incoming signal to huge voltage swings backed by hefty current delivery, scrub off a bit of the signal’s finest information. It’s even easier to imagine how the conversion of electron flow in the voice coil into magnetism, the conversion of that magnetism to the large motion of a relatively massive diaphragm, and the motion of the diaphragm itself cause the smallest and most fragile components of the signal to disappear or become attenuated, while the more robust signal components pass through relatively unscathed. But it is precisely these micro-aspects of the signal that contain that last bit of information we need to identify the sound as being live rather than a reproduction. A musical signal reproduced through a horn-loaded system undergoes an identical process, but on a much smaller scale. The compression drivers’ extremely powerful magnets require only a tiny fraction of the current of direct-radiating drivers to produce their miniscule diaphragm excursions. It seems intuitive that this roughly ten-fold reduction in electrical and dynamic forces allows the process to be performed with higher precision. http://www.magico.net/images/Reviews/Ultimate/MAGICO_Ultimate.pdf It’s worth noting (through the remaining review) Mr. Harley’s impressions of the Ultimate system to "trespass" the line from reproduction into a live event. This may not be an exclusive claim, nor is named million dollar speaker system representative of all horn speakers, but you nonetheless feel his admiration of something that pushes the boundaries of audio reproduction. This mayn’t be innovation either, but it’s a refinement/evolvement of horn principles founded many years ago, and ones you would wish explored more widely as well as economically accessible (certainly compared to the Ultimate system). |
I have to agree with Mapman ,having owned lots of vintage gear including speakers ( still own for investment only),,Altec/JBL/Jensen/Tannoy/Stephens and a couple pieces of Western Electric they are never my go to speakers.Id say most will never own highend vintage speakers and most I bet wouldn't want to if having the choice between that and say Magico,Kharma,Wilson,Raidho etc etc...I have no idea whats behind the technology and dont really care,they just sound better to me. |
Mapman whats missing- realistic sound quality, the ability to allow listener to feel the emotion of the music. The ability to easily hear the mix ie pick out the individual instruments and vocals along with the added studio work. Realistic image size and dynamic range.The at ease at any SPL the ability to sound wonderful out of sweet spot and through out home. Extreme lack of listening fatigue. A clear real sounding vocal ability the ability to do this all on massively low power. Extreme reliability and ease of service in field by owner. Today most all of this is missing and if present only a small part of it.I also disagree. Vintage speakers of high efficiency really don't play bass right, they are less detailed and harsher due to breakups in the various drivers and they don't handle power well (are less reliable). So the statement above seems false on all counts. |
A member I consider to be very knowledgeable with speakers often said something to the effect of "there have been no major advancements in loudspeaker design since the 1930s, other than making bad speakers sound better (i.e., direct radiators)." In other words, the best designs of that era would still sound as good as the best designs of today. The statement sounds pretty far-fetched at first glance, but I think I tend to agree with him. Take for example, the Klipschorn that was introduced in the 1940s. That speaker with the same basic design is still made and sold today. Match up a Klipschorn with the right upstream components and a good room, and the sound you get will be about as good as available at any price. I have experienced this myself. |
Atmasphere cant do bass right! Maybe wee ones dont but full sized sure do. Less detailed maybe if you dont add a tweeter keep in mind these designs were only good to 8khz. Dont handle power well! What the heck dude that one boggles my mind its so so wrong come visit so I can prove you wrong on all accounts lol. |
Vintage designs have proven there reliability modern has not. Functioning after near 80 years to atmasphere doesn’t show reliability? Then I dont know what standards hes using. Also arent you involved with marketing Classic Audio Reproductions? So maybe as Upton Sinclair said it {
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”} |
The epiphany for me, as regards "bandwidth" was hearing the original transcriptions of Benny Goodman's 1938 Concert at Carnegie Hall, in the process of being restored by an archivist. I listened to the flat transfer and to his cleaned up version of Sing, Sing, Sing. The bandwidth, running through a phone line to a cutter some blocks away from the Hall, was around 8Khz. The cleaned up version had dynamics and air on the drums, propulsive and alive sounding. It made me reconsider the value of digital for historic recordings- if done well, in addition to appreciating how much could be extracted from such an old recording. Last night, I heard Los Straightjackets do a cover of Sing, Sing, Sing at a small club nearby- in their inimitable surf-pysch rock style. That was great too. :) |
(johnk) I believe johnk (in the top paragraph) addresses what he feels is sonically missing with most of todays modern speakers (or the present state of reproduced sound in general), and whether his point of reference in stating this is vintage speakers or not is irrelevant; it's still what he finds is missing. What does it even mean to "play bass right"? There seems to me to be something fundamentally different in the way these [vintage] speakers play bass compared to modern speakers with their super dead cabinets and incredible fast, tight and really deep bass. While these speakers sound very impressive their bass just doesn’t flow within the performance like these older-design speakers. The bass on these newer speakers is definitely deeper, faster and has more slam, but they just don’t have the life in the bass that the more vintage designs do. All of the speakers above have incredible air and harmonics in the bass. You feel the bass. Yes, you feel the bass with the modern speaker as well, but differently. The bass from modern speakers with extremely dead cabinets has a very pistonic sound. To me, real music seldom sounds this way, occasionally rock music does, but it also often sounds purposefully distorted. http://www.dagogo.com/beatnik-pet-peeve-3-way-modern-speakers-play-bass |
To me, a lot of audiophile quality double bass is too closely miked- you hear things that even the player probably doesn’t hear. I think that is intended to create an immediacy, but real bass doesn’t sound like that in a club. Piano, to me, is also a tough instrument. Sometimes, very simple recordings are best- but many lack the weight and heft of a real piano in the lower registers and sound two dimensional; to compensate, sometimes the instrument is very closely miked in the same way I described the bass, above. When recorded with other instruments, it sounds out of proportion. The more modern, big heavy weight bass sound is great for "thwack" but there’s also stuff going on above- the "air," the skin sound, the tonality of a drum beyond the explosive movement of air. I think it is hard to get it all. I’ve always suffered a bit of a trade-off b/c to me, it starts (and often ends) in the midrange- bandwidth, imaging, soundstage, whatever audiophile attributes you ascribe to as important are pretty irrelevant if the thing sounds reproduced. |
Atmasphere keeps stating debatable or simply wrong things in a categorical manner. I think, what John is talking about is music lover's speakers versus hi-fi speakers. I am not familiar with high end vintage speakers, so won't comment, but there is something artificial in many modern speakers, they are sort of 'digital'. |
I agree, Inna. I solve that by replacing the nickel and dime components in the crossovers. A single electrolytic cap in the signal path creates an unpleasant haze of high frequency distortion, which one identifies with digital. Red Book CD digital absolutely requires a 22 KHz brick wall filter, because otherwise truly horrific distortions arise (i.e. aliasing). Who among the digitizers would bother with $50 capacitors? Hence distortion for the multitudes. I can make Magnepans or Quads absolutely sing, simply by replacing or bypassing distortion-producing cheap components. With an analogue source, of course. |
Atmasphere cant do bass right! Maybe wee ones dont but full sized sure do. Less detailed maybe if you dont add a tweeter keep in mind these designs were only good to 8khz. Dont handle power well! What the heck dude that one boggles my mind its so so wrong come visit so I can prove you wrong on all accounts lol. I often show with Classic Audio Loudspeakers at shows. In that regard I suppose I am 'involved' although John Wolff seems to do pretty well on his own. I show with him because his speakers work, and don't have the faults I previously described. Johnk, I've had EVs, Klipsch, Altec and JBL. None of them are free of breakups in their drivers (in particular, the midrange drivers) and so they sound harsher and less detailed. I'm used to hearing drivers with no breakups, so I am used to them being smooth. A person might not know what I am talking about if they are not used to such drivers! Under those circumstances, older vintage stuff sounds just fine, but I would not call it state of the art! Reliability- I've seen plenty of vintage drivers fail for the simple reason that they are old. glue failing, paper rotting, need I go on?? Setting the age aside, how about limited power handling? Or inability to handle excursion? Breakups (those are sought after in guitar speakers but cause harshness and distortion in hifi speakers; breakups in the Altec compression drivers can cause the diaphragm to crack; I've changed a lot of those in my time)? Reduction of cabinet resonance? Cheesy speaker terminals and wiring? These are problems that are solved or reduced in newer designs. Now there is a reason why vintage stuff is valuable and expensive. Its not always due to performance though. It might simply be because lots of older stuff is cool and there isn't that much of it. I just sold a 1941 Indian motorbike and one would be hard pressed to say that it had anything over modern bikes except style points and it went for a lot more dough than most modern bikes do! And heck, you can still make music with older speakers but you have to deal with their limitations. In particular I like to play music a bit on the loud side and I like electronic music with lots of bass impact.... What does it even mean to "play bass right"? That's easy! In addition to making amps, I run a recording studio and have done a number of recordings. One of them has the largest bass drum that was in the state of Minnesota at the time of the recording- it was 6 feet in diameter and was something you felt rather than heard, especially when played softly. Most older speakers simply can't reproduce it right- certainly nothing from the 30s can. Now I was there at the recording session since I recorded it... and I have the master tapes and the test pressings of the LP. I **know** what this recording sounds like and its a simple fact that all vintage high efficiency speakers can't play the bass right. Some lower efficiency speakers can, I had Fultons back in the 80s when I did this recording and the Fulton Premieres could do it. But they were not particularly efficient. Today I have speakers in my living room that do the job just fine and they are 98 db. When you have a recording that you know because you were there when it was made then you have a reference. I do recommend that any audiophile do field recordings when they can and get some idea of how to place microphones and otherwise sort out what the recording process is all about. Its an eye opener. If you can further get that recording onto a format that is easily played (CD or LP for example) then you have a tool for understanding how any system actually sounds. So to play bass right, the system has to be able to simultaneously have the extension into the low 20s, the ability to play it with impact and the nuance to do the subtle passages without loosing information. The Theile/Small parameters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small) were not worked out until sometime in the early 1960s and 70s; what this means is that not many speakers before that time could have had the bass sections of their cabinets properly designed. Its pretty well known for example that the Altec A7 'Voice of the Theater' didn't have the port set up right. Being that's the case, the argument that bass is somehow 'right' in the prior art falls apart pretty quick. |
All one has to do is look at the work of Andrew Jones. On the high end vapor deposted beryllium drivers (which to me sound like the quad 63’s I used to own but better in every way). On the low end his latest elac $500 speakers should perform at an unprecedented level. A friend just ordered them and I can’t wait to hear them with my excellent electronics that while out of balance price wise will show what they are capable of. |
Music instruments are pretty much what they have always been. And there’s the Stradivarius (and many other) fetishes for vintage stuff that supposedly was never bested. In audio, and particularly speakers, many fundamentals are extremely similar since the 70s. Which is not a bad thing at all. It means a technology has reached a level where you may consider yourself served for the longer term. I do think there is genuine innovation, but on the other hand the improvements come down to the diminishing results we’re long used to in audio. My dad had phenomenally sounding speakers in the 70s. It was only in the early 90s that I was able to get -for myself, after I moved out- speakers that sounded equal in quality. And when my Dad died, I would have gladly taken those speakers, only they had been destroyed in a fire a few years before he died. I think what has *really* changed is the quality of sound in the lower end. You were always able to get great sounding sound if you spent enough. But now you can build a system with a very few $500 components that gives anything a run for its money, and definitely puts still pricey vintage stuff in its place. |
The diversity of opinions in this thread demonstrates once again the diversity of viewpoints in audio, which is a good thing in my opinion. We approach the listening experience with different attitudes, priorities, life experiences, etc. which gives rise to different views on whether a particular speaker (or amplifier or whatever) sounds "good" or not. I am always surprised by the posted reactions to a different rooms at a hifi show I attended. Some rooms that I considered very poor are praised by others. It reminds me of how people can view a work of art and come away with such different reactions to it. In the case of vintage speakers, the picture is especially cloudy because so few people have actually heard the great sounding speakers from the 1930s and 1940s. Especially in carefully set up systems. Too many are making judgments based on what they think old speakers should sound like or what they recall from hearing Altecs or Klipschorns years ago, rather than actual experience. For myself I came to the vintage world and to horns in particular quite reluctantly. For whatever reason I am very sensitive to the "honk" or "shriek" produced by many horns. For decades each time I heard a horn speaker, I had the same negative reactions and wondered how anyone could tolerate such a colored sound. Then I had a chance to hear some speakers using Western Electric horns and drivers and discovered how good they could sound. As noted by several posters in this thread, a really good vintage speaker has a special musicality that modern speakers just don't provide, at least in my opinion. And certain horns do NOT have the honk or shriek that drives me the wall. One of those horns is the Western Electric 32A which can blend seamlessly with a large paper cone woofer, and fortunately the Altec version of the 32A is still readily available. My own speakers use the Altec 32A with compression drivers and woofers that qualify as vintage but not from as far back as the 1930s. I won't say my speakers can compete with the Shearer speakers described by the OP but they do things for me that are musically satisfying in ways that modern speakers do not. And that includes modern horn speakers such as the Classic Audio Loudspeakers (heard half a dozen times but only at shows) and Avant Gardes. Other folks might not react the same, but that just goes back to the diversity in this hobby. To each his own. |
Sal, Your experience is very much like mine. I did not like the sound of Klipshorns and most of the Altec systems I heard. I got interested in horns after hearing a pretty decent sounding Edgarhorn system. I am now a fan, and owner of a system that mixes modern (but old school) drivers with Western Electric compression midrange and horn. There are many other examples of vintage horn and non-horn gear that are also VERY good, such as Jensen fieldcoil direct radiators, IPC compression drivers, RCA compression drivers, Japanese Western Electric replica drivers, and a lot of other similar gear, that would surely surprise a lot of people if only they had a chance to hear the stuff. I sort of agree with you on the Classic Audio fieldcoil speakers. I think they are interesting, but, they are not quite my taste. The Avant Garde systems I heard were also nice, but, not quite what I wanted either. I heard a nice Goto system, but it cost more than a nice house. |
Whart, I use an Altec 802-8G compression driver on the 32A horn. Woofer is a Jensen P15LL which is a 15" with paper cone. Both drivers have Alnico magnets. The drivers and horn date from the 1970s, I believe, but are still available on Ebay at reasonable prices. The drivers and horns are just the raw materials, however; the trick to getting them to sound so good is the crossover. I have spent way too much time getting the crossover just the way I like it, but I am happy to provide details to anyone who is interested. Just send me a message through the Agon email system. |
The 802 driver is a very nice compression driver. I too like the old school paper cone woofers with alnico magnets and pleated surrounds. To me, these low compliance woofers deliver better "tone" for bass, even though they cannot go quite as low and deliver the same kind of punch as modern woofers. My speaker utilizes a modern version of old school woofers; it has two 12" pape- coned, alnico magnet drivers and has a pleated fabric surround. |
Larry, Yes, there is something about the old school paper cone woofers. The Jensens may not go as deep as modern woofers or have the same impact, at least in my bass reflex cabinets, but they somehow are able to blend seamlessly with the 32 horn and compression driver to create a coherent sound source. Coherency is one of my top criteria for judging speakers. I want a speaker to sound like a single full-range speaker, not a 2-way or 3-way. If this means giving up some extension in the bass or the highs, that's an acceptable tradeoff for me. |
"The plasma driver can be traced to 1900 and William Duddles singing arc" Hi John, this is the quote from Wikipedia that you supplied when I commented about Plasma drivers... As I had said, I've heard the Plasmatronics, but didn't know when they originated... I looked up your William Duddles singing arc.... The singing Arc was a short created between two carbon filaments, this arc was used as lighting and was poorly done. It did have an effect of a tone output and was named the singing arc....its frequency was controlled by voltage. Duddles added an LC network trying to filter out the noise so that it would be accepted as a Lamp. With the LC networkvOn this Lamp Duddles found that he could somewhat control frequency. It did not produce plasma in any way. As far as they could get with this is that it could re produce the frequency matching of a keyboard and it was done by modulating the voltage of an Electronic arc supply... Fascinating read, but It had nothing to do with how Plasma has been used in a speaker in anyway and certainly did not require a Helium tank to operate. The Hill Plasmatronics actually used a Helium tank to produce Plasma to play music.... When ever this was first produced, I do consider this a "Break Through" Of course, you may still show that it happened in 1906 or something. I have no idea there. Tim |
Certainly gains have been made in speaker design equipment and the parts used to implement ever more refined designs. However, as the owner of a horn hybrid system, I have to agree that the fundamentals of design have not experienced a paradigm shift at all. Listen to Atmasphere. Ralph has devoted his life to these matters and has a well-deserved reputation as a straight shooter. |
atmasphere EVs, Klipsch, Altec and JBL all are not 1930s. The Altec A7 you use as a example of poor bass its again not a 1930s design but is a affordable down sized design so expecting that to have deep bass and to be a example of design faults from the 1930s is very off. And you say this- Most older speakers simply can’t reproduce it right- certainly nothing from the 30s can- again since you admit no experience with 1930s how can you say such a all encompassing thing. Your argument about old wiring well I see cloths back in and costly as all heck and noted more than a few modern builders that are using screw type connections and bakelite. And you mention a 98db loudspeaker that good to 20hz I would like to see that since Hoffmans iron law it would have to be giant. So thanks for replying etc but you haven't changed my mind. |
I have no strong convictions either way in this discussion. But regarding the comment about modern jet fighters being superior to military aircraft from the 1930s, and other comments citing the superiority of modern technology, while that is certainly true I can say unequivocally as an antique radio collector that with perhaps a few exceptions the best performing and best sounding AM radios ever made were produced during the 1930s. (FM broadcasting didn’t exist at that time). Why would that be? Because in those days the centerpiece of home entertainment was AM radio, so there was incentive for manufacturers to implement that capability to high standards. And by far the best sounding AM and shortwave radio I have ever heard, modern or vintage, is the 1936 McMurdo Silver Masterpiece V that is in my collection. Although "radio" is arguably a misnomer, as it is perhaps best considered to be a precursor of modern hifi systems. Its 18 inch speaker, btw, while labelled as a McMurdo Silver, I’m pretty certain was OEM’d by Jensen, and is very similar to the Jensen field coil drivers Larryi referred to in an earlier post. Finally, I’ll mention that during the 1990s I owned two different pairs of very large 1960s Tannoy speakers, which incorporated 15 inch Tannoy "Red" dual concentric drivers that I believe would sell for something like $7K/pair today, or more. While I found their sonics to be somewhat disappointing, my impression was that the main reason for that was the design of the cabinets, and perhaps also the condition of the crossover components, not the drivers themselves. Just my $0.02. Regards, -- Al |
EVs, Klipsch, Altec and JBL all are not 1930s. The Altec A7 you use as a example of poor bass its again not a 1930s design but is a affordable down sized design so expecting that to have deep bass and to be a example of design faults from the 1930s is very off. And you say this- Most older speakers simply can’t reproduce it right- certainly nothing from the 30s can- again since you admit no experience with 1930s how can you say such a all encompassing thing. Your argument about old wiring well I see cloths back in and costly as all heck and noted more than a few modern builders that are using screw type connections and bakelite. And you mention a 98db loudspeaker that good to 20hz I would like to see that since Hoffmans iron law it would have to be giant. So thanks for replying etc but you haven't changed my mind.OK- so 50s tech is out- the gist I'm getting here is that for you the 1930s was the pinnacle of loudspeaker technology? Is that a fair statement? Could you point out the spot where I admit to no experience with 30's loudspeakers? I don't think that is correct. Like Al, I've done lots of restoration of older pre-war radios, some of which were rather sophisticated, in particular several large Zeniths (our Novacron amp takes its design aesthetic from a pre-war Zenith) and an Allwave Scott. I've also had exposure to older Western Electric- the large 'Ramhorn' system (there's a set here in the Twin Cities), and at the Munich show there has been for several years a Western Electric system running in a large room that featured 13A horns. I thought it was one of the better sounding rooms at the show- when it was working (one day when I auditioned it one channel was weak). But one thing that system simple could not do (despite the very large Altec subs) was play deep bass, although the Altec did sound quite nice. If you want to see the speakers that go to 20Hz, the speaker I have is a custom T-3 made by Classic Audio Loudspeakers. Normally they cut off at 22Hz but I had my cabinets made a bit larger so they would go to 20Hz. They are the size of a mid-sized refrigerator, about 5 1/2 feet high and employ a pair of 15" high-excursion woofers port-loaded. That speaker employs a field-coil powered midrange that uses a 3" beryllium diaphragm which in turn has a Kapton surround. This technology did not exist even 30 years ago let alone the 1930s (although field coils were the only game in town back then)! The Kapton surround keeps the diaphragm from cracking and failing and reduces artifacts brought on by low frequencies. The speaker uses a 6db slope crossed over at 500Hz so this is rather important! Because the diaphragm is lighter and has no breakups, it is smoother and more detailed than compression drivers that don't use the same technology, which is to say: all drivers made in the 1930s. Since the field coil has to be powered by a power supply, the power supply is thus part of the improvement: technology that simply didn't exist back in the 1930s. I know these days a lot of people go for Tungar rectifiers (which by all accounts seem to introduce hum). I have a box of them sitting in my office. The hum comes from the simple fact that the power supply can't be properly bypassed (without damaging the Tungar). This means that a certain amount of intermodulation with the hum frequency is impossible to avoid. That's a coloration. You might like it, but there is no way its more accurate! |
My tungars on my WE 13A dont hum again saying all tungars hum is simply not true. Also the classic audio reproduction is using 1930s tech its just using modern materials. A speaker like your CAR is a very good example of 1930s tech modernized. My point is that today we are basically building modernized versions of the pasts work. Your example of a BE dome doesnt negate the fact that its a dome FC compression driver and that is 1920s tech. Other comments about better materials or computer aided design forget that they are all still dynamic ribbon planar estat comp etc all early inventions that we use modern material science to supposedly improve. We dont have the innovation today and that is something I truly believe we dont take chances our design is limited by the power of computer software not the unlimited power of the human mind. Thus my statement was have-we-really-made-that-much-progress-since-the-1930s and I still think we have not. |
Speaking of old School and builds the Cabinet is at least 1/2 responsible for the Loudspeakers fidelity . I found a great cabinet builder in TN that uses what myself and many the finest Birch ply made in Apple ply they use only1/16 th thick laminate sheets up to 1 inch and the best plays are from cold climate Ruseia and east Poland the grain is tighter and more dense but $$ . I am using a never advertised but very Good Audio Nirvana 15 inch Alnico driver with Whizzer. In the 5.6 cubic ft driver a Bass reflex with 6 inch port where the 13 Cubic foot is their top. At least Audio Nirvana will provide you with cabinet building plans when you buy from them.i have owned a audio store for years in the UK and many others . I now have a SE pass labs F6 clone amp and Masterpiece 300b preamp Schiit Audio Gungnir Multibit and this system is truly engaging and puts realism in the room . what many people donot realize is that most recordings are lucky yo get under 40 HZ. My speakers will cleanly go to under a True 35 HZ not on paper like most speakers and for only one short burst tuneful articulste standup Double Bass or Tympany . For $3k delivered I wasted years avoiding single dtiver done right ,Driver,and proper built cabinet work in synergy . give it a shot and if you don't build ask Dave for a quality cabinet builder . the 5.6 CI cabinet was $1350'stained and sealed with magnetic grill s for $1500 plus shipping the 15 inch Alnico drivers $1100 a pr. Don't knock it unless you have heard them using the exact loudspeaker geometry for size driver and Driver that best suits your room . |
It might be useful to think about the evolution of the automobile as an analogy here. A car from the 1930s would be immediately recognizable to us, but over time cars have gotten lighter, smaller, safer, they handle better, are more reliable, routinely go faster, are more efficient, and the list goes on. These improvements (and yes, I think we can all agree that these are improvements) might also be said of speaker design. The industry has access to vastly improved measuring techniques, materials, and about a century of design experience to draw on. Fundamentally, the components of a car haven't changed much since the 1930s: an engine, transmission, suspension, steering mechanism, exhaust system, and a body to enclose it all. Same with speakers: a magnet, a basket, a vibrating membrane... What HAS evolved in a major way since the 1930s is music itself and therefore how we listen and what we listen to. Every day, we hear sounds my grandparents could never have imagined. Reproducing those sounds requires innovation not only in speaker design but also in amplification. I'm wondering if the invention of the transistor might not have been one of the driving forces behind speaker design and innovation over the last 50 years or so, and now that we're in the early(ish) days of the popularization of class D amplification, what changes might that precipitate, us having grown so used to today's hyper-resolving electronics? |
So..it appears that John is right, there is no innovation in a true meaning of it, just some improvements in certain areas, maybe. Speaking of cars, not from 30s. The original BMW M3, small and light, was a true driver's car. The same with Porsche. Now look at those modern computers on wheels that those cars have become. I don't need them. |
Spot-on Inna and John..... I get to compare vintage to modern every day in both cars http://i.imgur.com/ASYO1cY.jpg and audio http://i.imgur.com/ddKNHVx.jpg Give me vintage....😎🎼 |
As I opined here earlier, technology has advanced the performance of home audio gear greatly over the years. The Shearer system that the OP mentioned is not a home audio system but an enormous thing designed for theaters and movie houses; it is totally impractical for normal home use. The Western Electric systems of the day were essentially cost-is-no-object designs that were too expensive for even the theaters to own and were mostly leased out. They were built when labor was relatively cheap and so it was possible to build handmade items in somewhat smaller production runs. Home audio profited greatly from technological advances that allowed for much smaller speakers that could be manufactured on more capital-intensive production line basis. The sound of home audio was completely different from that of the large theater systems, and over time that sound evolved to where we are now--a different aesthetic from those old horn systems. I am certain modern designers could build systems that sound like those old school systems, and using modern materials and science, provide superior performance in the areas those old designs are lacking. For the most part, they don't because the mass market has no exposure to that sound and so there is not much demand. There are modern builders who cater to this niche market, but, they can only build on a small scale and cost, particularly labor, is extremely high so the stuff is EXPENSIVE (e.g., Goto). Atmasphere is, in my opinion, correct that these vintage systems cannot deliver the kind of deep bass that modern systems deliver. Even the massive Shearers and Western based systems do not have much in the way of punchy, deep bass. The light paper cones with low-compliance suspensions that don't allow the cones to move in and out very far are not capable in that respect. But, aside from that, they deliver a VERY special kind of sound. If that is your particular taste, there are not many modern alternatives (and certainly not many reasonably-priced one), so it is mostly an academic exercise saying that modern designs are, or are not, superior. The Classic Audio Reproductions field coil speakers certainly do deliver the incredible dynamics and clarity of the old school systems, and I will take Atmasphere's word that they deliver much lower distortion, but, I think they are voiced like modern systems and so they are not really "replacements" for such systems. |
Agreed. Transducer design has not changed for decades. Mostly tweaks. Some older designs are extremely good even against the best available today. From my perspective, the biggest step change was when transistor based power amplifiers allowed greater flexibility in speaker transducer design and realistic LF bass frequencies. Greater power in power amplifiers has allowed wider directivity and less efficient transducers to be employed and active designs allow for better integration. So the 70's was when a step change occurred. Arena rock and the golden era of the recording studio helped drive the technology. |
Mercedes produced a vehicle in 1938 that produced 736 hp and ran speeds of 268 mph. That proves cars have not improved.. In 1964 the SR71 was produced, this plane set the absolute speed record on the planet in the mid 70's.... so, I guess planes have not improved. Did the SR71 have cloaking capabilities? Klingons? Hmmm These analogies are the same... great stuff was introduced a long time ago, but the improvements have been massive. Everything that we have had to be invented at some point... Show me anything like a Magico... Shoot, show me a Bose! Point is well made that there haven't been many New INVENTIONS, but the improvements have been astronomical! So, patent a Microwave that plays incredible music..... Never mind, that's just for fat guys. |
I think microphones are the aspect of audio that has not progressed much and even if so most engineers are using vintage mics or newly built ones with using old topologies. I have a very novel concept for mics and tried to pitch it to someone once, but it would be expensive to develop since it uses no diaphragm |
So..it appears that John is right, there is no innovation in a true meaning of it, just some improvements in certain areas, maybe.I used to run a Ford Bronco, because I could load my hang glider on it and get to the top of any mountain that had a road up it. It had no computers and was easy to service, being very simple. I replaced it with an Expedition, which has about the same cargo area. Despite having an automatic (the Bronco had a 5-speed overdrive transmission), the Expedition accelerates faster, due to having about twice the power, handles better, is very quiet inside, is also much more comfortable and despite the computer is a lot more reliable and just does not need the service all the time like the Bronco did. On top of all that, it gets about 3 mpg better mileage. That is a difference that was wrought in the space of about 25 years. The funny thing is, the basic designs of the two are really similar. This is true of speakers too. But if one ignores the effect that materials science has had on speakers one might likely throw out the baby with the bath. Kapton didn't exist 70 years ago. Neither did highly regulated power supplies. The impact of the Theile/Small parameters can't be ignored. If I were to point to one thing that has really affect high end audio in the last 30 years its how we manage vibration. Speaker cabinets are much more dead now; literally that's the big improvement in most turntables, and killing breakup in drivers is still a pretty big deal. I like the older designs but there's not a one of them that won't break up. Its up to the individual to ascertain how important these improvements are. For my own part, I appreciate the size and efficiency as well as the refinement offered by the new technology that simply isn't there in older designs. But I make my own recordings. I know what they sound like... |
