Don’t you just love it when someone starts a help thread and hasn’t returned in for 6mts to see who given their time and effort to help with his/her problem!
Cheers George
Looking for the best Preamp with a phono circuit built in
Not my posy. Interesting read from Emotiva lounge by Boomzilla. Over my years, I've owned a startling number of stereo preamplifiers. The vast majority have been gross disappointments. Preamplifiers ALWAYS change the sound, and usually for the worse. Yes, preamplifiers have some undeniable virtues - They allow for switching among various sources, (usually) high-quality analog volume control, (sometimes) phono stages and HT bypass modes, (occasionally) tone controls and bass management, and they have robust enough output buffer amps (in most cases) to drive virtually any power amplifier. But in exchange for those virtues, you also lose some things - tonal fidelity to the source, soundstage depth and width, and the expense and hassle of having another damned box in the signal chain. Now over the years, I can think only of a few out of the very many that I could abide. Most were intolerable. Models that I tried and found lacking came from companies such as: Rotel McIntosh Conrad-Johnson Audio Research NAD Lyngdorf Emotiva Parasound And many, many more. Now note that some of these "rejects" had [u]spectacular[/u] specifications - ultra low noise, higher than audible channel separation, vanishingly low distortion figures, etc. And despite these measurable virtues, their sound wasn't as good as using a variable-volume-source directly into the power amplifier(s). So obviously, specifications alone do not a great preamplifier make. By contrast, I can think of only a VERY few preamplifiers that were tolerable or better: The McIntosh C41 was acceptable, but not remarkable A 1970's Mark Levinson (model not recalled) was remarkable for its transparency and imaging A 1970's Van-Alstine modified Dynaco PAS3 was also remarkable for the same reasons (despite tube colorations) And that's it. Those are the preamplifiers that I've been able to really admire. And now, to that trio, I have another preamplifier that I must add to the short list as being remarkable for its sound. And I must say that my audio amigo, @garbulky, has been sold on this preamplifier for years solely from reading its specifications. He's never heard it, but he thinks it's the best in the world! And I've consistently given him a seriously hard time about being so gung-ho for a product he's never even heard. Well, he was right - I was wrong. This puppy is world class. It reminds me most strongly of the Mark Levinson line of products. And that's saying something since this preamp sells for about half or less what the ML products go for. The product is the Chinese "Audio GD HE-1" preamplifier ( http://www.audio-gd.com/En%20audio-gd.htm ). Since there are (to my knowledge) no US distributors, you'd have to either buy used (as I did, from fellow Lounger @brutiarti) or buy directly from China. A number of things worried me about this purchase: Even on the used market, this isn't an inexpensive product Having purchased used, there is no warranty The manufacturer has no authorized service centers in the USA that I know of The circuitry and design are sufficiently non-conventional and sufficiently complex that you'd never find a shop willing to fix one of these The darned thing is heavy and runs hot But @brutiarti told me that it worked, and I trusted him. The trust was well-placed - the preamp looks like new and sounds AMAZING. So what's so great about the sound of this preamp that makes my system sound better WITH the preamp than without it? Now that's a complex question in and of itself. Theoretically, a preamplifier should add or subtract absolutely nothing from the signal coming in. In fact, unless tone controls, phono preamps, or bass management are in play, the EXACT analog signal coming in should be EXACT same as the analog signal going out - except for a different voltage (volume). The McIntosh C41 was the closest to this theoretical ideal of "the straight-wire with gain." Yet it isn't my favorite preamp! Why not? The Levinson, the Van-Alstine PAS, and now the Audio GD all add something that doesn't seem to be there in the source. Now the purist would argue right there that we have proof-positive that my three favorites are inferior. Yet I prefer any of the three "winners" to anything else I've heard. Why? In a few words, detail, transparency, and imaging. Detail - With my favorite preamplifiers, there seems to be more musical detail. I can hear "further into the midrange" and the treble (a potentially problematic issue, depending on the source) is detailed without becoming shrill. How do these preamplifiers do it? Are they rolling off the treble? Not that I can tell. The treble detail and even "ariness" are still there, but without even a hint of upper midrange screech or glare. And this is with the Oppo UDP-205 being used as a DAC (with its glassy-sounding Sabre DAC). But the Oppo doesn't sound glassy with the Audio GD preamp. What's happening here? I really don't know, but I definitely like the effect. Transparency - This ties directly to the "more musical detail," but while some components can provide detail with a heavy hand, the Audio GD manages to sound delicate when needed. Not every preamp can do this. In fact, most fail utterly. But the HE-1 has "transparency" in spades. Imaging - The effect of the Audio GD on imaging is virtually identical to what I hear from the MicroRendu. No kidding. That "WHOOOT - Dere It Is" experience is in full bloom with this preamplifier. I get deeper and wider imaging with this preamp in the signal path than I do with the Oppo driving the power amplifiers directly. Why? No idea - but I'm pretty sure I could consistently identify the Audio GD vs. the Oppo direct in any of the mythical "double-blind-tests." Do I want to spend my time proving that statement? Nope. I'm too busy listening. But maybe someday... Now my introduction to this preamp is going to be very, very brief. Once @garbulky finds out that I have it, he's going to abscond with it immediately, and then become very hard to find until he's gotten his fill. Such is life, and friends are worth the sacrifice. But thanks to the Gar for stimulating my interest in this product (that I never would have heard of, otherwise) and to @brutiarti, who sold it to me. It's been a long, long, long time since an audio purchase provided this much enjoyment this soon. What FUN! |
I’ve gone back to SE RCA’ed designs, but my heart lingers for that balanced purest design.Single-ended circuits tend to feature the 2nd harmonic as their primary distortion component. Balanced circuits, because they cancel even-ordered harmonics, tend to feature the 3rd harmonic as their primary distortion component. The ear treats the 2nd and 3rd about the same- they add to 'lushness". But circuits that have the 3rd as their main distortion component overall tend to have considerably less distortion- and this continues into the higher ordered harmonics. They don't just have less of the even orders, they have less of the odd orders too. That 3rd harmonic is at a level that is often 1/10th of the level of 2nd you see in single-ended circuits. So **generally** speaking, balanced circuits tend to be overall lower distortion and because the ear treats all forms of distortion as some sort of tonality (often favoring that tonality over actual frequency response) balanced circuits tend to sound more neutral- more transparent and more musical overall. |
The Van Alstine would be a good choice. So would a used Audio Research SP6 series or SP8 if you want tubes, since AR located near you could update them and still come in at a reasonable cost. These have some of the finest sounding phono stages ever (although MM only). I can't give you much advice on solid state, but have a used early Carver in my second system that punches way above its weight. |
Your search should include the Sutherland Engineering N1 preamplifier. https://sutherlandengineering.com/products/n1/ I've been using mine for about 2 years and could not be more pleased. My search is over and yours could be too! Single ended happiness that can drive reasonably long interconnects. Check out the owners manual: https://sutherlandengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Sutherland-N1-OwnersManual.pdf Regards, Steve |
Please read my write-up on preamp shoot out. Although it has a couple of dedicated phono sections, I do compare an AI mod 3b, CAT SL-1 and Doge 8 all of which I owned for quite awhile. And once again, a BIG impact is synergy, starting with your cartridge. I feel the needs of different cartridges can make any one of the preamps sound “right”. Although I haven’t owned one, I have heard good things about the dude and the EAR 834p. I have settled on the Aesthetix IO sig mated to “the Truth” line stage- sublime! Again- look for: Preamp shootout: Coincident Statement Phono Stage vs. Convergent Audio Technology Signature vs. Audible Illusions M3B vs. Doge 8 LP |
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I would go and audition a EAR 834P. It is a wonderful Phono Stage... https://www.stereophile.com/phonopreamps/797ear/index.html |
sra, Have you actually owned or had an Audible Illusions full preamp in your system to know if what you say is true? I now have a TRL DUDE with many upgrades, plus I've been looking for the phono preamp that can do equal justice and sound as goo as the AI John Curl MC phono section did. Forget about the extra expense of high end power cords extra, hi end fuses, and extra hi end interconnects. My clarity has picked up along with the dynamics with my step up from the AI 3A, but the DUDE is among the finest sounding preamps out there, even now. That phono section is still great sounding as was the CD input. |
You might want to rethink the choice of a combo pre amp/ phono amp. My thought would be to get a nice preamp like the deHavilland Ultraverve and the a separate phono i.e.. Dynavector makes a nice one that is not expensive and so does Graham Slee. Under a grand and very small foot print that will fit along side your preamp or table. Much much better sound then an combo. |
ketchup, the Positive Feedback pic is of the AI line stage, not the full function (with phono circuit) preamp. There is a reason why AI did this for their line stage. The left+right trim pots control balance and enabling a third pot to control master volume provides convenience for the headphone amp (plus the 2 main outputs). |
Do yourself a favor and take a close look at the Peachtree Nova 300, this unit does it all and has a fantastic soundstage, gobs of power and looks beautiful. I'm sixty one and believe this is the last piece of gear I'll ever need to buy. Could not be happier. https://www.peachtreeaudio.com/nova300-amplifier-with-dac.html |
@dorkwad See below. Volume, left, right, and source knobs. https://positive-feedback.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Photo-1.png |
@ketchup The one must be the source with its choices--the other 2 are left and right volume control. Should help your problem in hearing significantly as I’m sure your hearing varies on different days. This will enable you to get ’er done quickly and adjusted equally with some practice. Some recordings seem to be off on that too--so you can fix a poor mix. Plus, you get a little extra exercise without the remote. @dobnbav--Well said. 24 years with AI preamps and I loved them. Bob |
That's how our preamps are set up. The individual Gain Trim controls are used to set balance and overall gain. The Master control then makes adjusting the volume very easy. The hearing in my right ear is ever so slightly better than my left ear and I usually notice that the sound stage favors the right side. Can that be due to slightly better hearing in my right ear or might it be room acoustics? Would a preamp with trim controls and a master volume be useful in this situation? It seems like it would. |
All the AI Modulus preamps that I have owned (2B, 3A and 3B) have had a dual mono configuration, which included 2 separate volumes pots—one for each channel. So channel balance was adjusted by the two separate channel volume pots being at different levels. The other two large knobs on the Modulus 3, 3A and 3B are input selector and source/tape controls. The Modulus 2 handles those input and tape selections by a set of push buttons rather than rotary knob controls. The simplicity yet pain of a two knob master volume control is adjusting the overall levels of output voltage to the amp(s) will require one to also maintain proper signal balance by adjusting both volume pots to a given level and then making slight micro adjustments to correct the balance if needed for a given environment. As shown below, this is alleviated by having two channel level trim pots under the control of a third “master” level volume control that maintains the relative levels set by the 2 channel trim pots as the overall volume level is increased. Now the Modulus L1 through L3A units are line stage preamps lacking a phono stage circuit (hence these units have 2 tubes instead of 4 tubes found in the full preamps). These line stage preamps devote 2 knobs to control voltage signal levels to each channel (designated “left” and “right”) that act as a balance control when used in combination. Another knob, labeled “volume” is the master volume control for the outputs to the mains (1 and 2) as well as the headphone amp section built into this unit. I have this setup on my Juicy Music Blueberry Extreme full function preamp (2 channel trim pots and a master volume control pot). The other (4th) large knob on the AI L1-L3A line stage preamps is the input selector. The source/tape switching is handled by a set of push buttons, akin the the AI Modulus 2 series preamps. (Note added in edit: This is a popular circuit design set up, as Ralph explained above for his preamps.) |
Maybe, but some AI preamps have three knobs. One is labeled as volume and the other two are labeled as left and right. How does that work?Pretty well. That's how our preamps are set up. The individual Gain Trim controls are used to set balance and overall gain. The Master control then makes adjusting the volume very easy. |
Manual volume means the AI has two volume knobs, one for each L&R channel, so they are also the balance control. I used to have one and it quickly became second nature to turn them together.Maybe, but some AI preamps have three knobs. One is labeled as volume and the other two are labeled as left and right. How does that work? |
I’ll put my two cents in...….. Everyone here might roll their eyes about my suggestion but...… I run NAD vintage preamps and find their phono sections to be among the best I’ve heard..... In particular the NAD 1020A or the NAD 1130. I’ve restored many and continue to be impressed..... I know they aren’t considered "high-end" but not everyone has super deep pockets. |
Manual volume means the AI has two volume knobs, one for each L&R channel, so they are also the balance control. I used to have one and it quickly became second nature to turn them together. I’ll also add my vote for the ARC SP9 III, great preamp and a really nice built in phono stage. You can change the cartridge loading by soldering different resistors in a spot that’s designed for easy access. Not endorsing these two over other recommendations here, but I had good experiences with them. |
Here's the problem with the CAT, to find one in your general price range it will be pretty old. I owned an Audible Illusions for a couple years before opening a dealership in NYC almost 20 years ago. I just accidentally stumbled on a factory refurbed #A WITH THE JOHN CURL BOARDS in Silver on Galen Carol in Dallas site https://www.gcaudio.com/products/category/amplifier-preamplifier-tube/. Superior product. The price of the one they have is $1900. You won't get more for your money in the price range you're looking at and you'll have some money left over. This way you get a product from a reputable company and a long-in-business and very reputable dealer. They are built very solidly, can do MM or MC--never a MM fan here but you may be and you have your choice here. External power supply as well, an added benefit. Run, don;'t walk for this one. The only caveat if it means anything to you is manual volume adjustment. Much less distortion is the benefit. And to the guy who said that separate phono pre's are a an insult because you will require an extra cable...just because you are cheap doesn't mean that you know what you're talking about. There can be a massive benefit and few manufactures know how to incorporate well. AI is one of them. |
Agree with celander. The Audible Illusions have a very good phono section. I had a 2D for 18 years and a 3A w/ John Curl MC phono section for 5 years. 23 years of AI enjoyment. I finally decided to go all out and do the preamp, and separate phono preamp. It's been very tough to find a phono preamp that could equal my TRL DUDE preamp in sound. I'm on my 5th try with the phono pre. The AI's are VERY reliable if you stick with AI's best matched set of tubes. I only had to change tube sets 2 times in the 18 years and none in the 5 years of the 3A. The latest Audible Illusions 3B is supposed to even sound better compared to a 3A as the 3A did compared to a 2D. If you go used, the AI 3B will be around $2500-2700 for MM phono. Add about $600 for the John Curl phono section. Not many 3B's are showing up used, maybe one per 6 months. The 3A's will appear used once a month or so. Bob |