Mitch2 that's what makes this thread so intersting is all the differing listening impressions.
Salectric thanks for the update. I just ordered four Canare F10 RCAs. :)))
Salectric thanks for the update. I just ordered four Canare F10 RCAs. :)))
Looking for really fine cables at really low price
I have been listening to excellent sounding Exemplar exception cables for the last several weeks. While my HFCables are better they are also much more expensive than the below $500 cables.
They offer an excellent sound stage, dynamics, and top to bottom quality sound. Not only are they inexpensive but they are very portable and easy to install.
I am not a dealer or investor in this company.
They offer an excellent sound stage, dynamics, and top to bottom quality sound. Not only are they inexpensive but they are very portable and easy to install.
I am not a dealer or investor in this company.
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After listening to the Belden 8402 for over a week, and then putting my former cables back in the system, the comparison unfortunately was not even close. My other cables have similar warmth and tonal density but much better extension, definition and smoothness throughout the entire frequency range. The Beldens are midrange-centric and, in comparison, sound somewhat veiled, with a rough top end, less definition in the bass, and less smoothness overall. The comparison included two sets of ICs, one from my DAC to preamp and the other from preamp to power amp(s). My other cables are made with multiple strands of woven, small diameter (28awg), high quality copper (22awg aggregate per leg) in cotton and use high quality Furutech FP-601/602 connectors. I tried both sets with two different power amps, an Ncore NC1200 Class D amp and a high quality McCormack/SMc Signature Class A/B amp. I heard the same result with both amps, with the Belden cables sounding particularly bad with the Class D Ncore amps, which are a bit dark sounding to begin with. The Belden construction included two sets of balanced cables using moderately high quality Vampire XLR connectors, and the braid shield connected to ground at both ends. The Belden cables were conditioned for about two days on an Audiodharma Cable Cooker, played for hours in my system with the Ayre frequency sweep burn-in track on repeat, and then played with music for over a week. They should have been burned in enough to show their characteristic sound. When I make balanced IC cables, I typically only connect the shield at the source end but I space it away from the conductors and spiral a separate wire outside the shield connected to ground at both ends. I believe that is a superior construction method and I suppose I could have tried a separate ground wire outside the Belden jacket with the shield connected only at the source end, but I didn't. I know some of you guys really like the Belden 8402 and will disagree with what I hear, so maybe the difference is in the balanced construction or in my system using high powered amp(s) with moderate efficiency speakers, compared to the lower powered amps and higher efficiency speakers many of you have. Maybe I am just fortunate to have really good ICs for comparison. I cannot explain, but what I have described is what I hear. |
In re-reading those older posts on Jeff's blog, I noticed that the RCA plugs recommended by Mr. Yazaki-san were actually Canare F-10 plugs. The Switchcraft plugs that came with Jeff's cables were recommended by Jonathan Halpern, not by Yazaki-san. See post #10 at the link. http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=7325#comments |
Jet: Thanks very much for your helpful response. I recall that the shielding should be twisted on the ends to make it thin- similar to the other wires- so it can be readily soldered. I will need to be careful and patient when stripping the ends of the Belden to allow enough length for the shield. Best wishes, Ps |
Ps, The center pin on the RCA is Positive (hot). The longer outside shaft is Negative (Ground). Your shield and negative wires can both be soldered to that longer shaft. Positive goes to the center pin. I don't have my Belden IC's in front of me so I don't know the color coding, but Red is usually the positive (hot) wire. Jet |
Belden IC assembly help request. I recently saw some photos online of how the Belden 8402 is soldered to the RCA plugs but I cannot find them now that I'm ready to assemble mine. Can anyone kindly help? I recall that the shield was twisted but don't remember the place on the RCA to which it was soldered. Also, does it matter which wire goes to the center and which to the outside? Thanks very much- I'm a relative newbie at this sort of thing. |
Volleyguy1, I have liked this stuff from the start and I have made cables from the 16, 14 and 10 awg WE wire. I have sort of stocked up and still have some of each gauge here for future projects. In my system, all the sizes retain the same sonic characteristics, as I would expect since they are all made from the same tinned 30awg strands with thermoplastic dielectric and a cloth covering. I like a star-quad configuration for speaker cables so I have a bi-wired set with 4@14awg to the LF and 4@16awg to the MF/HF. These sound very good. On my Class D amp, I am currently running a twisted pair of the 10 awg directly from the amp board, with no binding posts. These also sound very good. Grannyring and Jetrexpro, I have had good luck ordering tinned copper braid shield and other common parts from McMaster-Carr. BTW, did you notice Take Five Audio is selling Cryo'ed Belden 8402? |
Jet, look at the barrel that fits over the cable on the Switchcraft connector. The far end, end opposite the RCA, this will show you how wide you can go on the shield. You would never slide this barrel over 1/2 inch braiding. It was hard for me to slide, but I got it done even with a layer of heat shrink over the braid. I was an effort! You could skip the barrels and just use a nice and thick heavy duty glue lined heat shrink for a collar. I did that on my digital cable as they were made with two runs per pole and the barrel would not fit over it. Once the glue sets and dries you have a very strong and safe cable! No,I won't mod these ever again after this. |
Jet, look at Jeff Day's blog/thread on the WE IC's as there is a link to "Take Five Audio" for Belden braided tube shielding. They offer various sizes. I used 1/4-1/3 inch as 1/2 inch would be too big. It does expand a little. Hard to work with this stuff. I soldered a 14 gauge solid core copper wire to the tip of the twisted runs and carefully pulled the twisted cable through the braided tubing. Only way to really do it. I then covered the braid with heat shrink tubing as the braid is conductive as you know. I then covered the braid with cloth. This was somewhat difficult and time consuming for me. Yes, the shieded WE version is in between the nude WE cable and Belden in terms of sonic personality. I found it not quite as forgiving as the Belden and not quite as "bright" as the nude. Good middle ground for me anyway. |
Maxima9, I agree. I plan on building a shielded version. Currently I am running unshielded. WE16ga is so interesting sounding to me that I want to learn as much as possible before drawing any firm conclusions. Incidentally I don't necessarily agree that Belden sound forgiving at least I don't hear them that way in my system. But the WE16 IC never sounded polite to me and before they were broken in there was times that they sounded aggressive. WE16 IC are so far musical force and very expressive in my system. |
Mortsnets thanks for sharing. Apparently Jeff likes the Belden for their "rich smooth forgiving presentation". If a listener wants to smooth over the rough edges his preference might be Belden. This would be a listener preference. In my system the WE16ga interconnects do not hide any of the rough edges of but at the same time does not sound overly bright. So WE at this point is my preference. I have well over 300 hours on them at this point. Jet |
Funny the long running capacitor thread was started when I heard vintage paper Aluminum foil and Mylar caps. I had heard tube amps but not like that before! I was just shocked at how "real" the sound was real people it was not a stereo. One amp was left stock to see if it could be beat. (that real sound) |
When I first heard the WE 16ga wire my comment was oh vintage vishay ERO Fol II Aluminum foil and Mylar caps. Those were the vintage caps in my amps. They were hard to replace in all ways. VERY real midrange. I suspected Yazaki-san likes that kind of sound. Then I went on to read about his cap of choice the Arizona Green Cactus. Guess what paper Aluminum foil in mylar... I will be curious to hear these. The vintage ones lacked dynamics of Duelund. Just too small. They were all tone. |
Latest WE wire project consists of simple twisted 1M pairs of WE 10awg wire in a bi-wire configuration (i.e., two pairs per side). The wires are directly connected to the amplifier board of the NC1200 Acoustic Imagery Atsahs, so there are no binding posts and no spades on the amp side. The wire enters the chassis through the former binding post holes and connects directly to the board at four separate contacts, two for positive and two for negative. The woofer and midrange/tweeter wires are discrete from each other, all the way from the board to the speaker. Currently using Furutech Rhodium plated FP-201s at the speaker end because they use two set screws and were easy to hook up. I may reconsider and switch to unplated Cardas copper spades at the speaker. Not sure whether it is the larger gauge WE wire, short 1M run, absence of binding posts/spades on the amp end or all of the above but the combination sounds very good, with all the sonic benefits of the WE wire reported here previously and that I have experienced with the other WE wires I have made. BTW, this is in conjunction with the two sets of Belden 8402 ICs I am using. This wire is so easy to enjoy, like a favorite cheap date. |
Hi Grannyring, is this the shield you bought from ebay? "10' 8 AWG Gauge 3/8" X.090" Braided Flat Grounding Strap Ground Wire Copper Tin". I want to make sure I have the correct diameter. Is 3/8 inches enough to fit the positive and negative leads of 16g WE wire? Or is 1/2. Inch a better choice. Thank you. |
I just got my bulk Belden and should have a pair of IC's completed soon. I'm excited! I've been running a 12' pair of WE16ga for a few weeks, connected to either Sonus Faber Liuto Monitors or Magnepan MMG's. Preamp is upgraded MFA Luminescence, and amplification is provided either by MFA Tube amps or NAD C272, depending on my mood. The WE wire is not twisted but I do use small nylon ties every 16 inches or so to keep the wires tidy. I am very pleased with these speaker cables. In my system, music sounds more "alive" - perhaps it's fair to say it's closer to "the absolute sound" on a modest scale, than any other speaker cables I've had in my various systems. The texture of most instruments is more "palpable" to me. Piano is especially enjoyable. Jazz combos are glorious. Is"palpable" is roughly analogous to "timbral"? If my semantics are not apt, kindly weigh in. :) I've got high expectations for the Belden IC's. |
Doing some late night listening on monoblock SET 300b amps tonight. I have been going back and forth between the shielded WE ICs I built vs the Belden. After some extended listening it is quite clear to me the WE IC is the better IC in my system on two different amps. To summarize the differences I would say the WE is more open, resolving and reaches higher for sure. The WE is more full bodied and vivid with a bigger stage. The WE presents music with more dynamics and improved musicality. In contrast the Belden sounds a tad closed in and dark up top. The Belden is very quiet and I like the solidity of the sound if you will. It has a nice ease and is still a great IC. I did build a set of WE ICs without any shield....just nude and not jacketed at all. I put them in after about 20 hours of burn in and they were way to bright. They sounded brighter than my shielded version ever sounded. I bet they end up brighter in the end. We will see. |
Alan Kafton, if you are reading this, please offer these guys a Cable Cooker group buy :~) audiodharma Cable Cooker |
Grannyring Can't wait to hear more of you're impressions and I am very courious to see if they shut down on you like they did to me after about 160-170 hours. I think that at over 250 hours my WE interconnects have finally stopped changing their sound. Keep us posted. From the tone of your post I totally get how wonderful they are sounding. |
I haven't tried WE as interconnects yet but tonight I wired up a pair of 1M cables using VH Audio V-Twist which is a twin-lead somewhat similar to the Belden 8402 but using modern materials. It also doesn't have a shield. It should make an interesting contrast with the Belden. But I will let it break in for at least 100 hours before making any comparisons. |
Jet & others, well the WE ICs sound stunningly beautiful today. Jet, as I read your comments about when the WE ICs are at their burn-in best, I feel your excitement and pleasure. I am there right now. Right now as I listen. I know others have used the word real, but real is the best word. The music, the singers, all sound so real. Real real. It's as if I am hearing the songs live, not the recordings I am used to. The lyrics/words seems to extend longer with far more articulation, emotion, breath, intention....oh the vocals just seem more human and the music so much more intentional and real. I am hearing every single voice inflection in such a beautiful and human manner. Not a stereo, but humans are right here with me with the delicate nuance of every syllable so evident and real. Human. Like you Jet, I am mesmerized by the realness of this sonic experience. No, the shield is staying on! I bet it sounds very much the same as your nude ones Jet. This WE wire is arresting in aggregate in my system. I would sell any piece in my system before letting go of this wire. Ha! That is truth. |
Bill, Your "rant" is no problem you raised obviously valid points of which I Have no argument with. Of course all materials are composed of fundamental particles (building blocks). The question is how and why do these various materials influence sound quality. What is happening to the signal? What is taking place and at what level, molecular ? Why does paper, cotton or silk differ from teflon or polyethylene? There are builders/designers who have compared and report definite sound characteristics of various types of materials. So Bill my only curiosity is why is it so. Like I've said before, there are always more questions than satisfying answers. No reasonable person would deny that all matter is made of essential atomic building blocks. Charles, |
Rob, The WE14 tentatively seems to be working out well, as does the Belden. I am getting about 3-5 hours a day of burn in listening to Chopin during dinner and watching movies with my beloved wife in the evening. I even ordered some opera dvds yesterday! Given that my source is a less than spectacular Oppo 93, things are sounding pretty good. I'm still doing some work on getting all the music and video streaming functionality working. Once I have about 40-50 hours of burn in, I will bring a decent source downstairs and really do an evaluation. While I won't have the luxury of an A/B with the WE 16, I should be able to make a judgment as to if the 14 generally matches the character of the 16 as all of you have described it. As for football, I am of course most happy to wish the Giants a win. Good thing you are not a JETS JETS JETS fan, in which case I could not be so accommodating. I will certainly be very interested in hearing about the Dynamo mods as the new caps and wire settle in. That amp in stock form is just a little treasure. I am also very interested in the single ended EL 34 pentode amp that Dan Wright is working on. It is a stunningly beautiful design, and by all accounts its music is just as beautiful as its appearance. I'm guessing it is going to be a little pricey though. |
Thank you Almarg This does sound reasonable: "un-shielded cable giving the perception of more air and top end extension". But in this case I am hearing this openness throughout the entire frequency range. To my ears I hear a more fully developed harmonic structure from the bass thru the treble that I would argue sounds like it is simply the way these cables sound. Wouldn't it be great if we could all get togehter in the same room for some listening!! Grannyring- looking forward to your observations once you build the second pair of IC's. This will be interesting. This goes to Charles's suggestion: I have this idea: pull off all of the insulation from some WE16ga stranded wire and then re insulate it with cotton shoe lacing. Building WE16ga interconnects in this manner would let us find out what influence that rubber insulation has. Jet |
Al, Thanks so much in particular for this comment. "Regarding natural vs. artificial materials, it stands to reason that the characteristics of the insulating materials surrounding a conductor can affect the sonics of a cable in various ways. But I would be (very) hesitant to draw any general conclusions about natural vs. artificial without extensive and carefully controlled comparisons." Folks, forgive the rant of a professional chemist and amateur philosopher. Nothing exists physically that is not made of chemicals or elements, which in turn are made of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Stated in philosophical terms, chemicals (and their constituent parts) are the material cause of all that exists, whether they be made by sentient or nonsentient efficient causes. Protons, electrons, and neutrons or their derivatives don't think. They do not know what or where they are, or how they came to be. Cotton is almost pure cellulose, which is a chemical. Cellulose does not know if its efficient cause is biosynthetic or not. It does not know or care how it came to be. It does not know if it was manufactured by people in a chemical plant or by "natural" means in a cotton plant that grows in the ground. The same is true of silk or latex rubber. If one inherently rejects anything "artificially made," then what are you going to do for a conductor? The tin plated copper wires don't grow on trees. They are manufactured by humans in factories. The music we listen to is largely synthetic, coming into existence by the deliberate design and execution of human beings. Not many of you, I'm guessing restrict your listening to the songs of humpback whales. Nor do many of you, I think, travel by means of an all natural wooden wagon pulled by all natural mules. The outer jackets of your vacuum tubes are made of glass, not of silk. Shall I go on? |
Thanks Al! Very well done. Yes, it did remove a ground loop issue that only this amp seemed to have in my system. It was indeed a 60 htz hum through the woofers! I have had this same issue with other tubes amps and love the fact that a shielded cable removes this potential nagging issue. I agree 100% with the un-shielded cable giving the perception of more air and top end extension if you will, when perhaps it is really high frequency noise. The absence of noise is a startling thing in a stereo system and something our ears have to get used to. Very interesting point/speculation Al. I do notice I can turn up the volume with these shielded cables with no negative impact on my tinnitus. I cannot claim the same thing for past un-shielded cables of both copper and silver variety. |
Al, Thanks for your comment/explanation. Unshielded wire and natural fiber materials fit the same category as NFB (no negative feedback). By that I mean the principle(simpler and less complex) of their use and effect seems to yield positive sonic results more often than not. However it's difficult to attribute their apparent benefits in isolation. Yes they appear to improve the sound quality when implemented but other variables are very likely in play. NFB benefit will certainly be dependent on speaker characteristics. Bill, Jet or Sal, how about making ICs with natural material and another with synthetic dielectric and compare? I know, easy for me to say. Charles, |