Looking for my Final Pair!!

Mostly, but I think he means well...needs some comradeship!

Does anybody here actually read Raul's posts? Or do you (like me) just scroll right on past them as if they were a total time waster (they are)?

@rauliruegas If you were listening with me in my den over a great beer or a fine wine with some excellent music playing on my stereo, I do believe a most excellent time would be had!  Party on Raul 🥳

Dear @dave_b : In audio world nothing is perfect, always exist different kind of trade-offs.

A room/system quality sound reproduction levels has a direct relationship to the choosed trade-offs by each one of us.
So as better choosed trade-offs as better the room/system quality sound reproduction levels.

The best way to be " near " to that perfection is to mantain the room/systems developed distortions ( every kind of distortions/noises etc. ) at minimum. That’s all and yes that’s exactly what I learned to do and more important how to detect those distortions and when is possible how to fix it.

Rigth now am I chasing distortions?, not really. What I’m doing is listening to reproduced MUSIC through my room/system.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Gotta love Raul...keep chasing those DISTORTIONS 🔊 

Dear @roxy54  : I can see in this thread that some of you ( including that stupid. ) posted everything against my posts even laugjhin of me and yes is very easy to make critics to any one posts when those critics has not to be proved by facts that were used as the critics foundation.

I can't see/read here to any of you posted any single contribution that can helps to improve the quality sound reproduction of the OP or in any of your systems.

Applaud is not a contribution and makes more damage than helps in any way.

Forums are places ( for me. ) where we can learn ( that's why I post, trying always to learn or help. ) or confirm what we already knew, it is a " win to win " excersice: no one is defeated but here some want to beat the other person ( in this case me. ) and try to do it with no first hand experience facts to do it.

I don't post to beats any one, this kind attitudes is almost the rule in the audio forums and is way wrong.

So instead to follow making useless/futile critics ( including Dave. ) my advise to all of you is to make true contributions that in any way can enhance the different issues developed through any thread.

Btw, I learned, by " test and error " , several years ago the critical and main characteristic that impedes to any system to have top quality sound reproduction and that has a name: IMD levels.

My ADS goes down to below 18hz and is designed to run with a stereo amp or to run in bi-amp way ( with out using external crossover. ) as many other speaker manfacturers designs.
Bi-amp works really good and enhance the quality level sound reproduction. Latter on ADS made it a dedicated external crossover for my speakers and obviously I bougth it and I achieved higher quality sound reproduction levels.
All those gaves me some kind of first hand experiences about and then I asked my self: why not add subwoofers? that in those times was a crazy idea due that my ADS goes really low but even that I tryed and for may self I step by step learned about that IMD.
For my self and not through links information or advise of other gentlemans else where.

That's why I posted in Agon the " old " subwoofer thread with foundation mainly as the subs main target is not to achieve better and lower bass range but to put at minimum the IMD developed by the passive woofers in speakers and as a side advantage better and lower bass.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Bruno's comments contradict Raul's conclusion. Bruno teaches that a larger cone can get the job done with less excursion (which means 'lower distortion' in this case). The Klipsch has a 15" woofer, which is a larger cone resulting in less excursion. Bruno then uses the example of a 1KHz tone intermodulated thru Doppler Effect (with a high excursion cone); the Klipsch woofer is crossed over at 700Hz.

Because the Klipsch horn is well active at 1000Hz it masks the lower level distortions of the woofer at the same frequency in the same way that this occurs with many other loudspeakers. Bruno's comments support the idea that the Klipsch is a lower distortion loudspeaker insofar as its woofer is concerned.


We can see from this conversation that so far no particular argument has been leveled at the woofer itself. If there is a weak argument (re. Bruno) for distortion it would have to be about the crossover frequency not the woofer.

Occam's Razor is the oldest scientific principle. It teaches that given two explanations, the simpler one is probably the right one. We have Raul's remonstrations as the complex explanation, and we have the far simpler explanation: In a nutshell Raul was/is simply wrong; we see this in spades from Bruno's text, which explains why the Klipsch is a lower distortion design.

I will assert my privilege and ask of you, Raul, to stop disagreeing with me!  Thanks 🙏🏻 

You certainly seem to have a lot of free time on your hands Raul.

Dear @dave_b : "" Try psychotherapy... ", you can go on insulting me in all the ways you intent/intented.

What you need is to learn and understand the IMD meaning that obviously that as you several other persons in this thread just can’t understand it or have a severe misunderstood for a very low knowledge levels in that speacific IMD regards.

Here " something " that could help to fix your misunderstood.

You say I need psycotherapy because you are sticked as one stupid here with the very old " fashion " ( same as REL people. ) to use a subs as only a low bass speaker reinforcement even with true full range speaker designs.

That old and wrong way to use subs to listen MUSIC in stereo home systems changed several years ago in favor to lower the IMD levels to achieve true improvements in the room/system quality sound reproduction.

Next some high-lihgts and links to understand about:

this comes from white papers by Putzeys.


""" Read any discussion about loudspeakers and you get the impression that distortion as a topic is eagerly avoided. If it is mentioned, it is done sotto voce, implicitly. For instance: “you can’t get good bass out of a small long-stroke driver. There’s no substitute for cone area when you want to move air”. Doesn’t sound like it is about distortion at all, does it? Let’s unpick the statement a bit: there is no substitute for cone area. Of course there is: displacement. If you want to move 100 cc of air, you could move a 500 cm 2 cone by 2 mm or you can move a 200 cm2 cone by 5 mm. At the wavelengths we’re talking about, there’s no difference between the two. So if the bigger driver sounds better, it must be because it’s managing that 2 mm movement much more precisely than the smaller driver is managing its 5mm. And that is a statement about distortion. If we can crack the question why a short-stroke driver is more accurate over short strokes than a long-stroke one over long strokes, it should enable us to build a long-stroke driver that’s just as accurate as a long stroke one for the same acoustical output. More accurate in fact, because once you understand the problem, there’s no reason why you couldn’t reduce distortion even further.

A HD measurement done on a complete driver tends to show a complicated jumble of frequency and amplitude dependent distortion products. An IMD measurement shows another jumble.

When we talk about distortion, there’s often a distinction made between Harmonic Distortion (HD) and Intermodulation Distortion (IMD). These aren’t two different types of distortion per se, but different ways in which the same distortion mechanism can manifest itself more or less saliently. Take for instance a woofer whose BL curve droops progressively with excursion. Tested with a single 30 Hz sine wave, this will only manifest itself as a form of soft limiting. This sounds like a change in tonal quality, but little more. The effect of the suspension progressively stiffening (Kms increases) with excursion would sound more or less the same in a single sine wave test. A HD measurement is not helpful in telling you which of the two effects is happening. By contrast, imagine what happens if you add a 1kHz tone to the bass tone. The added excursion caused by the 1kHz component itself is negligible. But now the two distortion mechanisms show very different signatures. As BL rises and falls throughout the 30 Hz cycle, so does the sensitivity of the motor. The 1 kHz tone gets amplitude modulated. You can hear the 1 kHz tone wobble. BL droop manifests itself not only as harmonic distortion, but also as intermodulation. The variable stiffness of the suspension however has no such effect. The 1 kHz tone will not be modulated by suspension stiffness. Why should it? 1 kHz is well above the resonance frequency, so there the mass of the cone completely dominates how the 1kHz component makes the cone move. The difference between the two distortion mechanisms is plainly audible on any genre of music that has both bass and midrange content. And as a distortion mechanism, the droop of the BL curve is much more audible than the progressive stiffening of the suspension. This is rather important. One often encounters drivers where two different distortion mechanisms are precisely orchestrated to make their harmonic distortions cancel. Such drivers look great on paper but this sleight of hand actually worsens IMD.

The distortion takes the form of the signal being multiplied with a filtered version of itself, so it is predominantly second order in nature. Now, there is a common misconception that second order distortion is innocuous. This may be largely true of harmonic distortion where a second harmonic is easily masked by the fundamental, but in the case of intermodulation distortion it is patently false. Second order IMD generates difference frequencies which are below the signal frequency and don’t get masked at all. They audibly clog up the bass region in a manner which becomes extremely obvious once you remove the distortion. Also, amplitude modulation of mid frequency signals by the bass is very audible as burbling. """


http://www.klippel.de/know-how/measurements/nonlinear-distortion/intermodulation-distortion.html

In next link read critical issues and you will see IMD:

http://www.klippel.de/test-objects/low-frequency-drive-units.html

http://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/klippel/Files/Know_How/Application_Notes/AN_08_3D_Intermodulation_Di...

https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/audibility-of-distortion-at-bass/intermodulation-dist...

In next link you can read:

"" Another well known type of distortion is Intermodulation Distortion (IM) where a higher frequency is amplitude modulated by a lower frequency, causing new frequencies above and below the highest frequency at a frequency“distance” equal to the lowest frequency (mirrored side-bands). ""
https://www.rmsacoustics.nl/papers/whitepaperdistortion.pdf

Joe D’Appolito:

"" We can tolerate relatively high levels of harmonic distortion in program material because, as their name implies, the spurious components added to the program are harmonically related to the original program. Intermodulation distortion (IMD) produces output frequencies that are not harmonically related to the input. These frequencies are much more audible and annoying than harmonic distortion. ""

In 1967 a gentleman who cares about IMD made it his patent:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3327043


Now, the CW woofer handled a wide frequency band where exist very high IMD levels and that only can be lower if part of the bass frequencies goes out of that woofer and for this we need subs and a high-pass filter that liberates the CW woofer of that bass frequency short band.

I respect that you prefer the CW or any other speaker in full range status. So that means that you are not even aware of that IMD developed by those woofers in all the speakers you own or owned.

Stay where you are and follow sticked to that old and wrong " fashion ". It’s your privilege and no one can disagree with.

R.

You make critics and as always with out facts. Please bring/show here your first hand experiences with measures that proves your " muddy sound eliminating ANY perceived advantage ".

Lol!! ROFLMAO! Raul, first, you don't present measurements here, so you're asking me to do so yet in the same breath, asking for anecdotal perception.


But if you want a nice anecdote, you know I show at audio shows. One year at RMAF we had a ballroom. The system in that room had to be able to play the entire room. John, of Classic Audio Loudspeakers, thought it would be fun to bring an electronic crossover and bi-amplify the system. So we had an amp on the woofers and another in the highs, each driven by the output of the crossover. Recordings I knew well just didn't have the detail that I knew was there, and also knew that the speakers and amps could easily do.


So we removed the crossover and ran the speakers full range (since they have a proper crossover anyway) and the problem was fixed. The simple fact is a crossover can rob the system of resolution.


Note the word 'can' in the sentence above; it suggests a possibility;  not that it always does. You have to be careful of the setup. You took my comments out of context without the important qualifiers. You can't just use any crossover; some work and some don't; if they rob the system of detail you're better off without.

I am familiar with the G500’s...enjoy!

I’ve found my final pair of speakers although I do enjoy others in my stable, but the ultimate island speakers for me are the Genesis G500. They do everything right and can be placed in most rooms comfortably. Flat to 20hz and coherent to rival any modern design. 
I’ve been an audiophile for 35 years and I get chills every time I sit down for a listen on these guys! 
https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/184/index.html

Try psychotherapy Raul 😉

atmasphere : my mistake but I’m not need your post as a reference because makes no sense at all:

" The use of a sub is good, but in order to really take advantage of that, you’d have to make sure no bass is getting into the Cornwalls. "

No bass? really? Then let us know what is your first hand experience to do that in the CW or other similar passive speaker.

I stated in the thread the normal low/high pass crossover frequency to make lower the CW IMD .

The other part in reference to use an electronic crossover:

" muddy the sound, eliminating any perceived advantage ...."

dave is doing your " muddy the sound " through the REL crossover. At least I posted this way of connection after he posted the REL manual operation and he don't tell me he is doing in other way . 

You make critics and as always with out facts. Please bring/show here your first hand experiences with measures that proves your " muddy sound eliminating ANY perceived advantage ".

it’s stupid to think that all subs in home places are used stand alone as low bass reinforcement only.

So what are you talking about? 

You can take all the examples I posted of manufacturers in the thread that use subs with its main speakers and they made the design for the subs handled only a part of the bass range not all bass through the subs as you posted:
"" NO BASS is getting..... "

R.

Understood...not sure he can help himself. Probably means well but can’t take a hint 🙃  The whole reason I use REL (and have so for years with most of full range speakers) is because of their design philosophy, which is to augment the mains by adding reinforcement which adds atmosphere and presence along with harmonic density!

@dave_b Just for the record, Raul took my comments out of context.

😳
I experiment 
Then I decide 
😉

Dear @dave_b : Believe me that I really appreciated you pasted here the REL manual, thank’s for that.

Now, you said that prefer that the main speakers been play full range and according to that and the REL info then you are crossing at around ( more or les ) 34hz. Only you know the precise frequency you choosed through the REL crossover.

Again I’m not be argumentative against what you like it. What I’m trying to do is why you like the more with your speakers playing full range when the 99.99% of the audiophiles with a pair of self powered subs ( including the ones that owns REL. ) always likes the more the room/system quality levels when the main speakers does not plays full range but use a high-pass filter to makes the IMD goes way lower from the spaker woofers.

Obviously that I can be totally wrong but this is mytake/explanation about:


first the S2 units you use ( I’m thinking that you own two S2s. ) are not true subwoofers due that its low bass spec says: -6db at 24hz.

So using the CW the frequency range that sees/plays the subs is really a short one. Nothing wrong with that, it’s your choice.

Now, what happens if the crossover instead to be at say 40hz goes up to 100hz?

I’m sure that I don’t like it because the signal in the subs is powered by the NEXTGEN 2 DIGITAL amplifiers.

The other issue in both ways: full range or crossed higher is that the overall signal that " sees " the speaker amplifiers is generated by the REL that could be a first rate/excellent one or could be not so good, depends on the REL internal quality design.

For me certainly that an electronics company as the Canadian Bryston makes products with excellent design ( because are specialist on that kind of electronics by a lot of years. ) and excecution design as the electronic crossover that I link in one of my posts in the thread.

Any way my advise still is the same: we must to make that the developed IMD levels in the woofer of our speakers goes a lot lower and through REL we can’t do it, we can’t have success.

I respect your way of thinking and your very fast mind status changes. I said that because I told you the high limitation of the CW at its reproduction of high frequencies and you told me that you don’t care or that I was wrong because music instruments does not goes beyond 20khz and now you have supertweeters to solve that problem.

R.

REL Set-Up Made Simple!

RELs are not traditional subwoofers, but true sub-bass systems. A REL is designed to augment the performance of “full range” speaker systems, to provide linear response down to below 12 Hz (Studio III, -6 dB down at 9 Hz). Therefore, for the moment, set aside everything you’ve been taught about subwoofers and how they are integrated into a stereo or theater system. RELs set- up and position differently than other subwoofers. A REL will take advantage of physics and room acoustics to provide deep pressurization as no other sub-woofer can. It’s important that you bring to the set-up process a willingness to do things a little differently in order to obtain these superior results. The end result of your labors will be an utterly seamless integration of true deep bass to a sound system, regardless of the main speaker’s low bass capability.
Two Things Before You Begin
A. It is helpful to know that you will almost always connect the REL to the input on the rear panel labeled “Hi Level.” This connection is made using the supplied 34’ 10” (10 meters) cable, the bare leads of which connect to the speaker output terminals of the power amplifier. The easy and foolproof connection at the REL is done with a Neutrik Speakon connector. The purpose of connecting to the speaker output terminals is one of the unique secrets of REL’s success. By connecting to the high level input on the REL from the amplifier, you build forward the sonic signature of your main system, including the tonal balance and timing cues of the entire electronics chain. In this way, the REL is fed the exact signal that is fed to the main speakers.
B. When possible, the REL should be placed in one of the corners behind the speakers. Remember, we are dealing with true LOW bass pressurization with RELs, not the mid- bass that most competitors settle for. Low bass pressurization below 40Hz is best derived from corner placement, where the most linear and efficient low bass can be produced.
Basic set-up should take no more than ten to fifteen minutes to accomplish once connected.
Connecting
High-level connection, using the enclosed cable with the Neutrik Speakon connector, is always the first choice. By connecting to the amplifier’s speaker outputs the sonic signature of the entire amplification chain is folded into the signal for the sub, thereby keeping timing and timbre cues consistent. In other words, the signal sent to the REL is exactly the same signal sent to the speakers, allowing for seamless integration. This connection can be made without affecting the performance of the amplifier because the sub’s amplifier input impedance is 100,000 ohms. This scheme also avoids adding any detrimental effects by not interposing any additional electronics into the amplification chain.
• The standard high level hook up procedure is: attach the red wire to the amplifier’s right positive speaker output terminal; attach the yellow wire to the amplifier’s left positive speaker output terminal; attach the black wire to which ever of the amplifier’s ground output terminals is convenient; plug the Speakon connector into the sub’s high level input.

• For differential amplifiers using one sub, simply use the standard connecting scheme with the exception of connecting ground to chassis ground, not to speaker output ground, and then connecting into the high level input (Hi Input or Unbal Hi Input on Stentor III and Studio III).
• For differential amplifiers using two subs for each channel: connect red to positive; yellow to negative; and black to chassis ground; plug the Speakon into the balanced high level input (Bal Hi Input).
Low-level connection, RCA inputs (or XLR on some models), is always an option, should high- level connection not be possible, or in a theater system where both high-level and low-level connection should be used. When connecting to the low level inputs, connect a single RCA cable to the 0dB RCA jack. Additional gain can be achieved by connecting to the +12dB input. If you are connecting two channels of stereo output from a pre-amplifier, simply use a high-quality y-adaptor to sum the two signals together.
Positioning
The optimal position for a REL is in one of the corners behind the main speakers. This position provides 9 dB of mechanical amplification and allows for the most linear true low bass wave launch, owing to the ability to tune the sub to the axial node of the room, or longest throw distance.
The Process
To begin the set-up process, choose a piece of music that has a repetitive bass line that is very low in frequency. We recommend cut 4 from the soundtrack to Sneakers (Columbia CK 53146). This has a repetitive bass drum throughout that gives you plenty of time to move the woofer around, but more importantly, the recording venue was quite large for this recording, and therefore it has a very deep and large-scale bass signature. This type of cut is perfect for the set-up process, and should be played at the highest reasonable level expected for system play back.
Working with a partner, one in the listening position and one at the woofer manipulating the controls, is the most effective and efficient ways to set up the woofer. If working alone, the initial steps in the set-up can very effectively be carried out from the location of the woofer. Trying to ignore all other music in the cut, listen for the bass drum and its effect on the listening room.
1. Phase Orientation: Once in the corner we need to adjust for phase. This may be the single most critical step, and because it really is quite simple, it is often over thought, especially by the most experienced audiophiles. Keep in mind; the right phase is whichever position is the loudest or fullest. While playing music with true low bass, adjust the crossover to a point where the sub and the speaker are sure to share frequencies (B, 3 for big speakers; C, 4 for smaller speakers). At this point turn the gain so that both sub and speaker are roughly equal and then switch, using the “mode selector” switch, from “0” (position 1) to “180” (position 3) phase positions. Again, whichever position is loudest or fullest is the correct position, and, as often as not, may be 180-degree phase. That is, this position is working in harmony with your main speakers, reinforcing bass, and not canceling it.
2. Room Orientation: Next, if space allows, try two different orientations of the woofer relative to the wall. First, while playing the set-up cut, place the REL with the connection panel parallel with the rear wall. (See Figure 1) Second, place the REL with the connection panel parallel with the sidewall. As with phase, the orientation which yields the most output is the best position for that room. This process simply orients the driver, and port, to most efficiently vent into the room. In some instances there may be little difference, at which point aesthetic concerns may override performance concerns. For Q

series, if possible, point the driver directly out of the corner, equidistant from the sidewalls.
3. Placement: The next step is to determine precisely how far out from the corner the sub should be placed to achieve the most efficient output, as well as the lowest frequency extension. With the sub fully into the corner, continuing to play the music, slowly pull the sub from the corner on the diagonal, equidistant from both side and rear wall (See fig. 2). At a certain point (sometimes a matter of only a few inches, in rare cases a foot or more) the sub will audibly go lower, play louder, and, if it truly locks on to the room and is fully pressurizing it, the air around the sub will seem to be energized. Stop right there! This is the correct position for the sub.
4. Crossover and Gain Settings: To determine the crossover point, bring the gain down, put the crossover to A-1, bring the gain back up to the point where you have achieved a subtle balance (In some situations where there may not be sufficient output due to room and subwoofer interactions B-1 should be the position to use in setting initial gain). Working only with the coarse control (A-D), bring the crossover point up until it is obviously too high, at this point bring it down to the next lowest setting. Now, working with the fine control (1-6), bring up the crossover point until it sounds too high, at which point bring it back down to the next lowest setting. For all intents and purposes, this is the correct crossover point. Once this stage has been reached, subtle changes to gain and crossover can be accomplished to provide the last bit of complete and seamless integration. With that, set-up is complete.
Note: As the Q-series crossover adjustment uses a single variable control, use the closest correlating position to any of the crossover settings noted above for ST series models. Ultimately, as with the click stops of the ST range, simply bring gain and then crossover up until excess output is achieved, then back down a soft-click or two.
Hint: There is a tendency among audiophiles to set the crossover point too high and the gain too low when first learning how to integrate a REL with the system, the fear being one of overwhelming the main speakers with bass. But in doing so, the resulting set-up will be lacking in bass depth and dynamics. The proper crossover point and gain setting will increase overall dynamics, allow for extended bass frequencies, and improve soundstage properties. Note, gain must be adjusted in conjunction with crossover changes. In general, when selecting a lower crossover point, more gain may need to be applied.
Theater and Film Applications: For Dolby Digital AC-3 or other 5.1 theater systems, once the standard set-up for two-channel outlined above is complete, the LFE output from the processor or receiver should be connected to the low-level input and appropriate gain adjustments made. It may be necessary to take the crossover out of the low-level input using the “mode” switch if extra upper bass output is called for. Keep phase consistent with what was selected during high-level set-up by simply choosing the corresponding setting (1 = 2, 3 = 4). For this configuration, you must set the processor to the “large” or “full range” setting for the left and right speakers in order for the REL to receive the bass signal via the high-level cable. In this configuration, the REL provides support for both the left and right speakers for two-channel listening, and support for the LFE when movies are playing. Most processors will allow you to defeat the subwoofer output when listening in the two-channel mode. The effect of this set-up is one of greatly increased dynamics in the mid-bass range; no bass bloat; and a greater degree of space and timing from the Foley effects. For an even greater sense of space and impact, a second woofer connected in parallel to the center channel will prove to be a dramatic improvement as well. And if that is not enough fun, a rear sub, both to support the rear channel speakers as well as to evenly distribute LFE through the room, truly completes the full-range

sonic picture for state-of-the-art film reproduction. A comprehensive set-up paper for home theater will be coming very soon.
Other Tips: Generally speaking, do not use the supplied spikes. RELs work on the principle of the driver in a high-pressure zone relative to the floor. Spiking the REL will decouple the woofer from the floor, which will lean out the bass response. If the floor is an older, very “springy” floor, spikes can be useful in reducing the influence of the REL on the floor. But better yet, a heavy stone slab placed under the REL will work better. Even if you intend to use the spikes, do NOT insert them until completion of the set-up process. After which, subtle adjustments to crossover and gain may be necessary.

I have a guy who knows a guy who is crossed over...capiche?

Leave him alone Raul.

Dear @dave_b  : I disturb you again because rigth now I can't understand why tou posted that you  always tested all your speakers with subs running in full range and running through a high-pass filter and that you prefer speakers in full range way. Posted twice.

atmasphere posted:  ""  The use of a sub is good, but in order to really take advantage of that, you'd have to make sure no bass is getting into the Cornwalls. That's probably best done with an electronic crossover  >"""

and with other words and examples I posted more than 4 times the same.

Again after so many posts by me you confirm that through your tests on those both options you like full range speakers mode.

My last post about said:


"  That means that the independent high-pass filter and low-pass filter comes in the S2 and it's the way you tested? "


Your answer was direct when you answered me:


"  Correct...."



I contacted directly to REL and ask in specific about the S2 high-pass filter and here the answer:


"" 

Rob Hunt (REL Acoustics)

Apr 9, 2021, 8:42 AM PDT

Hi there again
We feed a REL full range signal but there are no hi pass filters..."""


and you have not an external Xover with high-pass filter.

So you can't test it ever with any of your speakers what atmasphere and I asked/posted and even that you said: you did it and do it with the CW?

A high-pass filter is need it to fix the main speaker frequency that normally it's not exatly the same frequency than the subs Wover and many other issues that tells us why it need for  main speakers: a dedicated high-pass Xover.

All those information could means that what you posted is totally false or you have a" something " to do it in the S2.

Is it in true false what you posted? or what is that " something " that works as high-pass filter?

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I snagged one of the first pair of Focal Sopra No2's in black that hit the shores in the U.S.  It took a while for them to settle down, once they did, I'd say they are my "final" pair.  I'm amazed that, when I bought them they retailed for $14k a pair and now they are retailing for about $5k/pair more!

Things are settling in nicely...starting to gel and become cohesively expressive.  Soundstaging is starting to expand and images are fleshing out more.  It’s interesting and quite enjoyable to hear better acoustic placement/intelligibility of instruments and voices without them being unnaturally etched or hyper focused!  Everything seems to exist in a more proper relationship to each other which makes the listening experience more authentic and less Hi fi’ish, if you catch my drift?  Smooth but detailed highs are also involving without loosing vibrancy.  Overall I think I chose wisely in stepping off the High End treadmill 👌🏻

Nice.....

System pics have been updated!

Very cool RIAA...not too far!  A nice IPA or wine TBD awaits your presence 👌🏻  Sticking with the Krell K300i for now...not in budget for Tori IV right now.  The new Krell Class A sound is quite addictive.

riaa,
Are you speaking about Peddlers Village in Lahaska, PA?  

Enjoying reading about your experiences Dave.  I have the Cornwall IV and Volti RAZZ as part of my speaker arsenal. Thinking the Razz will probably be better (better construction/parts) but we'll see once I get around to trying both out. Also have a BNIB Decware Tori IV with the $600 upgrade option so we'll have to exchange notes in the future.  Just up the road from you a bit near Peddlers Village.

Amazes me that at least 3 people are screaming "Tannoy" in this thread and your playing Classic Rock.  Tannoy has to be one of the WORST brands I have heard playing Rock.  Wonderful with lightweight fluff, Female vocals etc but will make you sleep thru "Dark Side of the Moon". Dont waste your time.

How about some pics of your setup?

Aperion super tweeters and cables are burning in...impressively made with superb controls for crossover points and level/db for speaker matching.  WBT binding posts as well👌🏻  On first listen, I am hearing just that slightest bit of extra sparkle on top that some of my previous speakers delivered, but with the organic fullness and tone that the Cornwall’s imbue.  Potentially an important tweak to enhance certain recordings in a given environment.  My Den is slightly subdued in supporting a completely open top end, so the super tweeters can compensate for what may be perceived as missing air in the upper registers.  I’ll give them a solid week or two before final judgment is rendered.

Thanks Raul;))

Dea @dave_b  :Ok, even that's not tghe best the way to do it I can't argue about because that's what you like it. Good.

R.

What comes after "beating a dead horse?" I guess we'll have to wait and see...

Correct...thanks!

Dear @dave_b  : It is weird that over my posts in your thread you never mentioned that when I posted again and again about.

In your vitual systemI can't see any  external electronic Xover that normally is the best way to integrate subs to the main speakers because that Xover gaves us several advantage. One is that the low-pass filter is totally independent of the high-pass filter, each filter comes with individual  crossover grequency range and even those filters can comes with different Xover filter shapes: first order, second order, third order, etc and obviously comes with individual to each filter an attenuator/volume.

Now and due that you said you already tested what I said in those latest statements  andyou  prefer full range main speakers.

That means that the independent high-pass filter and low-pass filter comes in the S2 and it's the way you tested?

Thank's. and sorry to disturb/ask again.

R.

Yes...me likey my system full range!

Dear @dave_b : This I posted in this thread 03-24. Where you can see and read about that external crossover to set up the crossover frequencies through a Xover:

""" In that thread I gave my advise to the OP gentleman as an alternative to those Wilson Alexx V:

https://www.kerracoustic.com/k300

with this Xover:

https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/electronic-crossovers/fm-330-series/

these could be the subs:

https://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/mini-series/minisub/?doing_wp_cron=1615566000.556648...


One way or the other almost all of you are " against " my posts about but please let me know which Cornwall IV owner has its set up using subwoofers not as bass range reinforcement but crossing at 80hz-90hz where the main speakers are handled from there and up? """

In my latest post you can read again about low/hi pass filters:


" easy to do for you because you already has subwoofers that you can use to play the frequencies from around 80hz-100hz ( depending the choosed crossover frequency in the high/low pass filters. ). "

You posted:

"" .I have done that experiment with all of the speakers I’ve owned in my current home. I have always preferred full range on mains and sub adjusted accordingly by ear. """

Please let me explain to me what I read in your post and please confirm if what I understand is correct or wrong:

so, that means that using a high-pass filter ( external or in any way. ) you made it that your main speakers ( any of the ones or all you owned. ) through its woofers have a crossover frequency at around 80hz-90hz meaning that those main speakers plays frequencies from 80hz-90hz and up and that through a low-pass filter the subs plays from 80hz-90hz all the way down to the very low bass frequency ( lower than 20hz. ).
So that the woofer of the main speakers never sees/seen/plays low bass frequencies, rigth?

and after your tests you prefer play in full range mode the main speakers using subs as bass reinforcement only, rigth?


Both solutions are different and give different quality of soun room/system reproduction.

Have I a misunderstood on your last post?

Thank’s.

R.

.I have done that experiment with all of the speakers I’ve owned in my current home.  I have always preferred full range on mains and sub adjusted accordingly by ear 👂. With REL I have a wonderful blending which delivers deep taught bass.

@dave_b The use of a sub is good, but in order to really take advantage of that, you'd have to make sure no bass is getting into the Cornwalls. That's probably best done with an electronic crossover, which can easily muddy the sound, eliminating any perceived advantage (although there are vast differences in crossovers). So while Raul's suggestion holds water, it has that downside and it should be noted that it applies to any speaker that has bass information on the woofer cone. Its nothing that applies specifically to the Cornwall.

Yes, I understand now...I have done that experiment with all of the speakers I’ve owned in my current home.  I have always preferred full range on mains and sub adjusted accordingly by ear 👂. With REL I have a wonderful blending which delivers deep taught bass.

what did you can't understand?

What I'm posting is exactly what Vandersteen said.

The issue is to liberate/let it free the woofer of CW the frequencies in the low bass range.

That means that instead that the CW woofer plays/handled frequencies from around 35hz and up it will be free of the low bass frequencies and it will plays/handled frequencies from around 80hz-100hz and up in this way the IMD will goes lower in benefit of quality level of what you are listening today.
That's it, easy to do for you  because you already has subwoofers that you can use to  play the frequencies from around 80hz-100hz ( depending the choosed crossover frequency in the high/low pass filters. ) and below it.

If you can't understand it please let me know what you can't understand because it's not rocket science.

@rbrannen just posted  about the Legacy Focus XD, please re-read his post.

This is the Legacy:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/legacy-focus-xd-active-4-way-speakers-review-tremendous-towers.3030...

that you can use full active with its internal amp or just active with low bass range. Please take a look the crossover frequency of the woofers and you can read that crossover frequency is 120hz ( active as a subwoofer. ).

I hope now you can understand the whole issue to improve the CW sound reproduction adding those subs in the rigth way.

R.

I honestly can’t understand you Raul...but I’m fine 🙂  Happy Listening 👂 

Dear @dave_b  : What I wanted to say is that you own subwoofesr so you can test the CW with a crossover at almost the same frequency than the subs: around 80hz-100hz ( both: sub and CW ) and through this test you can now what I'm talking about. With out doubt you will be very nice surprised and with rewards over the items you are buying as amplifier or supertweeters and if you don't liked it you always can come back to the original status, you can lost nothing and can learn about.

After your test you can decide if you still need the other audio items.

R.

Just listen to the new Wilson Sophia x if you can afford $20 k 
you will never look back the best sounding speaker under $25 k I have heard to date these sound more musical then the Shasha I heard 3 years ago ,loads of trickle down technologies,

I can’t even understand 2 sentences of anything Raul posts soooo.....anywho, playing around with cables and then super tweeters for some home brew alchemy!  

rbrannen,
I am sure that if Raul researches the Focus XD, he will be able to explain to you how in fact, they are hopelessly colored and flawed.

Legacy Audio Focus XD (Active speaker) with Auralic Altier G1. I recently auditioned in Los Angeles and they changed me as a person. I will never be the same again until I get a pair. Nothing in your list come close for the real live emotional and full dynamic range experience then these do 

two out three words (depending on how you count):
 Tannoy Kensington GR