Looking for advice, recommendations

I think your number 2 list is the solution you seek. But you might try some KT-88s in the amp you have (I put Gold Lyons in mine).

My tube amp was waiting on having some work done on it, so I ordered a Hypex UcD 400 stereo amp kit, and it's turned out to be one of the best sounding amps I've ever heard in my system.

My 3C24 amp has had it's output tubes changed to 812 tubes, and now it's the best, but not by a long shot. In fact, they sound somewhat similar, which isn't a bad thing in my estimation.

God love Paul Birkeland's genius.

Not sure if 70Wpc is enough for you, but if so I think the Octave v70 SE integrated fits your sonic tastes very well.  The v110 SE is $1300 more but puts out 110Wpc. 
https://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/423-octave-audio-v-70-se-integrated-amplifier

If going separates the AGD Tempo di GaN amp would also be worth a look. 
 

Best of luck. 

OP,

Welcome to the forum.

From what I can tell of your system you have a great opportunity for improvement. You have very good speakers capable of much better sound than you are likely getting.

It is really helpful to us to be able to see your whole system. There is a place under your user ID to put some photos and ID your equipment. You can see ours there as well. It is really helpful.

Assuming you want as great an improvement in sound quality as possible, then I recommend spending as much as you can and buying separates. Todays integrated amps in the $10K price point are getting very good (like the Pass iNT-60), but if you desire in the long run to improve the sound quality buying used separates now are likely to get you better sound and allow smaller incremental purchases later. My rule of thumb is to always invest 2x or more in any particular component if you want an “oh, wow… that is a lot better.”

I would recommend a used Audio Research preamp to be the center of your system. They are tubed and possess the best of both worlds: details, great imaging as well as amazing musicality. I would budget $4K to $5K.

For the amp. There are lots of good choices. I really love tube amps, but high power and tubes cost money. On the other hand, my speakers are about the same sensitivity as yours and I am powering them with 60wpc tube power and the sound is fantastic and can be played louder than I can stand. Maybe, look for a less expensive amp in the mean time until you can afford something like an Audio Research REF, Conrad Johnson or VAC.

My system started out as separates into a stereo power amp.
At some point 10 years in the power amp died and I went to tube mono blocks.

Later the preamp was replaced with a tube preamp. And later that replaced with another tube preamp.
Then the monoblock tube amps replaced with a stereo tube amp… which I feel so so about. But it is pretty good.

If you had a set of earphones/headphones it is likely easier to get the front end evaluated and dialed in.

I think my front-end was pretty good before… (ARC phono into Audible Illusions).
It is just as good now.

On a lark, I put some AIYAMA A-07 $70 power amps onto the system to evaluate them for a HT integration.  It was amazing good. The Primaluna Dialogue HP Premium power amp is better, but not by miles… and not by a lot.

Yeah I have need looking at Atmasphere mono blocks.

But I would suggest your. Path 2 is what is most clearly one that will meet the goal. So just shove in a pair of the A-07s as bi-wire/bi-amp mono blocks for now, and get the front half sorted out. Maybe that Sachs one… But the used ARC suggestion is also good.

Once that is seeming to come together, then you have a system while you figure out what to do for the power amps.

With a $6k budget and already having speakers I would be putting $5k into a used preamp, the $140 into the cheap amps, and then speaker wires and RCAs to go from the pre way out to amps sitting slope to the speakers can be done for well within the remaining budget.

Sonically, I like the sound of tubes.  I want a three dimensional sound, with well defined space around each instrument and vocalist.  Looking for more detail, without harshness. 

You get a lot of ^that^ with the speakers.
The preamp can mostly only degrade things from the source, but it is also really doing a lot, and one makes or breaks things right at the front of the signal path..

Generally the amp does not make “the magic happen”… one can only loose something (detail), or add some harshness or noise with an amp. But an amp that cannot drive the load adds a lot more :character”. But every amp adds its own sonic character to varying degrees, 

The amps generally do not make the sound that you describe, and the Benchmark and Atmasphere that you mentioned are ones that don’t add a lot extra distortion in.

Powering a SS amp with a tube pre is usually a pretty solid recipe for getting good sound. And starting at the front and moving down stream is a pretty safe and reliable way to upgrade “a chain”. Put in strong links as you identify them, and don’t worry about having a weak link or two. Working the forge and anvil, one makes a chain “one link at a time”.

Jeff Rowland Continuum S2. 

I would consider upgrading my speakers instead to something that will work with 4 watts.  then next time you upgrade your amp, to to an SET.  

You may like the way you are going.  But thought I'd throw out another idea.

Jerry

Based upon my experience I say your approach of a good tube pre with a GaN based amp is a sound one. Regarding amps, you can't go wrong with either AGD monos or Atma-Sphere monos.

I have two AGD Tempo (stereo amps) to bi-amp my speakers. I tried using just a single Tempo but the imaging is better using two, even if just using one channel of each amp. But don't use them bridged.

I have also had the excellent Atma-Sphere monos. They are slightly more mellow than the AGD amps. 

Hi OP,

Over the last 4 years or so I have been on a 2 channel journey that has seen quite a few upgrades, tweaks.  On that journey I have had the Primaluna EVO 400 integrated, the Coda CSIB integrated, Krell’s latest Integrated along with Parasound A21 and Krell 300xd duo stereo amps with Krell Illusions ii or Zesto Leto Pre (Tubes).  I also used the Coda as a Pre for a spell.  I was looking for the control, balanced and drive of SS with some of the warmth and 3 dimensional magic of Tubes.  For my tastes, I found SS amps that had some warmth, magic was my preference.  I also found that I preferred the Coda Pre which is SS over any other Pre I had in the mix.  The amp champ hands down was the Krell 300xd - bested the Krell Integrated and the Coda Integrated.
 

I’d look at used Amps, likely Class A, known for a touch of warmth, tube like qualities that can drive speakers at least down to 4 ohms.  This gives you flexibility on speaker selection, will work with almost any speaker.  Used Krell amps, Coda #8, Parasound for the $$ offers some great amps.  Schitt Freya Plus is a steal, bargain on a pre that offers tubes and SS.  I’d go with that Combo or I’d by a Coda CSIB, used but latest version and version 1, add a power amp down the road using the CSIB as a Pre.  There are also some boutique Tube brands that could get you to a great Tube experience, another route.  Or, as previously suggested, upgrade your speakers to speakers you plan to live with for quite awhile and the build around your speakers, if you don’t have the speakers right nothing you do after will transform your system or speakers to what you are looking for.  An analogy would be you can’t exercise your way out of a bad diet.  Same with speakers.  If you love the speakers you have, you are 75 % to where you want to be.
 

If it was me, I would search for used Cosa # 8 or used Krell older amp or latest XD amp used, buy the Schitt Freya and potentially upgrade the Pre which you can sell for a minimum loss if you upgrade.  Also pay close attention to the “House Sound” of the pieces of gear and brands you buy.  Benchmark is all about zero coloration, distortion, the make great products at a high value but based on your referenced lean toward tubes, not a great fit for what you have described as your house sound.  Some Tube gear leans more toward SS, PrimaLuna is one brand that does while some SS leans toward a Tube sound or warmth, think Pass, McIntosh, Parasound and the older or newer Krell gear.  Some Tube Brands chase bridging the short comings of tubes vs SS and some SS brands do the reverse.
 

Welcome to the forum and good luck!

Thank you everyone for your recommendations.  I think I will replace my output tubes first, probably with KT 88s or KT 66s.  Next step will probably be preamp.  Power amps will come after that.

The speakers I have are probably my end game speakers, at least until a have to move into an old folks home.  Then I will downsize.

There very few sonic “bargain” audio components, but the Odyssey Khartago and the Amped America AMP240 SS high power $5k SS amps. The Odyssey ozone of the amps Alon Wolf of cutting edge speaker top of the market designer Magico. The Amp American does everything well even at the frequency extremes

I’m  not familiar with tube preamps in Your price range , but Rogue Audio and Audio by Van Alstine are high value companies that consistently offer products that punch above their price points.

Another option is to have a SS or tube preamp and a tube type warmth sounding GaN Fet type amp like from AGD, Peachtree, Atma-Sphere. GaN amps seem to consistently receive many raving reviews. GaN Amos have the midrange tube warmth, but unlike tubes it is efficient like a SS amp, reacts a lot faster than tubes, and is usually more articulate dynamically and may have better definition (more controlled) in the bass.

Before making changes, I would recommend Synergistic Research products which will make vast improvements to your equipment and room. It might sound so good that you don't need to make any equipment upgrades.

 

Thank you everyone for your recommendations. I think I will replace my output tubes first, probably with KT 88s or KT 66s.

You could do ^that^ and stop there?

Next step will probably be preamp. Power amps will come after that.

If you are doing the preamp then why even do the KT88 tubes?
Just use the funds from selling the integrated to move to a preamp and power amp.

The KT88 tubes are a dead end upgrade, unless you are open to the idea of stopping there. It the plan is to have more upgrades, then it is an illogical step and a waste of funds.. (But it seems pretty logical to just do that and stop).

The speakers I have are probably my end game speakers, at least until a have to move into an old folks home. Then I will downsize.

This is great - you one piece that is set in stone, and that defines what the power amp needs to do.

If the speakers were in question too, then that makes the problem have another degree of freedom and it becomes wildly complex.

@holmz 

i am thinking that the original tubes in my Primaluna Integrated amp may be approaching old age.  Changing the output tubes would be an interim step to restore some “life” in the system.  Changing preamp would be an incremental step to improving the resolving power of the system. I like to do the changes step my step to spread the $ out over time.

@holmz 

i am thinking that the original tubes in my Primaluna Integrated amp may be approaching old age.  Changing the output tubes would be an interim step to restore some “life” in the system.  Changing preamp would be an incremental step to improving the resolving power of the system. I like to do the changes step my step to spread the $ out over time.

Sorry, didn’t mean to post that twice.

Make sure the integrated you have can be used as an amp only.  I don’t recall my Evo having the functionality to bypass the preamp section specifically.  It did have HT Bypass so in theory you could use that functionality to use the amp only.  

@mm1tt77  Yes, the Dialogue Premium Integrated has an HT input which bypasses the preamp section.

I replaced the output tubes in my Primaluna Dialogue Premium (non-HP) with Gold Lion KT66s.  It definitely brought life and dynamics back to my system, so I guess the original EL34s were getting old and tired.

This is only a temporary step, as I still plan to go separates long term.

I’ll start a new thread on amplifier questions.

 Thanks