Help? Certain music makes my ears hurt from my bright sounding Klipsh Forte ii's (Sonny Rollins Saxophone Colossus), Or is it my room full of glass and tile? Or am I listening too loud (80 db), or my 1970's Pioneer receiver? I just ordered some dynamat to put on the rear of the horns. Some music is good though. I have often though about getting another pair of speakers so I can switch back and forth or run all four depending on the music. Any advise?
Listening to my Forte Is as I type this, and I can confirm that Klipsch speakers tend toward brightness. I can also note that nothing tames Klipsch brightness as well as McIntosh amplification. Klipsch and McIntosh go together like peanut butter and jelly. The McIntosh's natural warmth takes the edge off the Fortes, and the Forte's natural brightness keeps the McIntosh sound from getting too warm and soupy.
I have an McIntosh MA6200 for my Fortes, and it works great. If you hooked yours up to a McIntosh tube amp, you'd have a heck of a system.
Update,. Hope you guys are still out there, I know it's an old thread now but ...Dynamatted all the horns / woofers. Ok, big job but covered all the glass in the room w/ sheets / blankets, 3 large sliders & windows, covered the large glass dining table, tile 1/2 wall, pictures w/ glass, stainless steel fridge, ovens, some cabs (kit open to L/R), 60" tv & glass fireplace front. And ............. all of you are correct, sounds much better, the shrieking highs are gone. Litmus test was Pink Floyd DSOTM time, and Gershwin, rhapsody in blue. Tried with everything coverd, sound great. Then with just the sliders / windows covered, last with nothing covered. Conclusion: drapes will eliminate 75%+ of the tinny sound. So now will investigate drapes, I saw some on amazon for a very wallet friendly solution. I always likes the dynamics of the Klipsch speakers they just need to be toned down. Nothing quite like them when playing Pink Floyd, Classical, or anything with a sax which I love like Sonny Rollins, not to mention rock. They are not perfect, they lack the lush, richness of some other speakers. But keeping for now. Thanks again everyone! p.s. thanks holmz, they do sound better w/o foam under them.
Update: All speakers and cabinets now dynamatted and sound a little better. The toe in helped, pulling them out to +/- 12" from the wall helped. Planning to stuff the bottom cavity with foam. Will hang blankets soon and update. Someone mentioned replacing the tweeters with another type but I can't find the post. Anyone remember?
With Horn / compression drivers, I have always preferred lower-power tube amps. Listening in close proximity to horn / compression transducers at louder levels can cause listener fatigue. With lower-power tube amps, the Forte should be much more tolerable and not sound quite so bright.
@peterjc That's helpful information Peter. It really helps focus things as far as what options you have. Given your limitations on your room, this may be a bit of a challenge. Our musical priorities and living spaces can change over time. My original concern for you was not to spend too much cash on things that may not be a "fix" for you. I think any changes on the front end and amplifier will be subtle compared to say a new speaker or alteration of room acoustics. I personally would want to do an in home audition of any gear that is suggested. Tubes can be wonderful but I have heard tube amps that were less smooth and more up front than some relatively affordable SS gear--so no guarantees that is the fix. You would have to try it. But will it be enough?? Only you can be the judge.
Back 40 yrs ago (arghhh!) I had a pair of Altec Lansing Santana II's, Great rock and roll speaker. Would love to hear them again with some of my old LP's. While they sounded great with some recordings, they just had too much edge and listener fatigue with others. It limited my musical enjoyment. So on I went to a pair of Magnepan MG-1's.
So you said you "don't hate nor dislike" the speaker. My question is do you love them! If not, under current circumstances, maybe another speaker would allow you to enjoy all of your music.
But for now, keep doing what you are doing. Tweak the damping of the speaker and horns. Keep playing with placement. Don't rule out fashionable or portable acoustic treatments. Some can look pretty cool. Lastly, I would look at associated equipment. It seems to balance out a bright room and a bright speaker, any gear would have to be rather colored to accomplish that feat. Would be really nice if you had a dealer or local audio buddies that could let you the benefit of home audition before you spend your $$. Let us know how it turns out and good luck finding what you are after Peter.
Sorry corelli720 so many posts. Ok I bought these in 1990 and demoed them at either the local good guys or best buy. I liked them a lot. I was 34 and still listening to a lot of rock and of course wanted a speaker that was, well, LOUD and they sure fit the bill. Now I don’t turn it up so loud as much. I still love the Klipsch for a lot of music, especially music with horns like Sonny Rollins or ’Modern Love’ by David Bowie. I listened to the Rolling Stones today and they did well for ’Brown Sugar’ (sax) and also did well on ’Wild Horses’. I don’t hate nor dislike the speakers. My original post indicates that I am uncomfortable with "certain music". I really don’t want to cover the room with curtains as it is the kitchen, dining & living room all in one big room with +/- 350 sq.ft. of glass. It was a nice day in central California today so I had all the sliders open to enjoy the air / view. I don’t want to close all the doors and be sitting in a movie theater atmosphere, yes maybe at night that would be great. Some advise has helped, toe in, EQ settings. I got really great bass I never knew they had by pulling them out from the wall. I will dynamat the other speaker next weekend and post how it turns out. Dynamat on the one not a lot of difference. Any advice is appreciated. I have learned a lot from the thread. Thanks again, Peter
I had chorus 2s for a minute. They would rip your head off without judicious use of EQ at anything approaching loud volumes. I did like them for some old rock and metal(with judicious EQ). They were fast and impactful for sure. Great kick in the gut mid bass!
OP here, 1. cranked down 1 & 2 on the EQ as suggested (that helps) and have one speaker lined with the dynaliner, will do the other speaker next weekend. Can't say I hear a lot of diff. from the newly lined speaker. 2. Has anyone heard of china-hifi-audio? They have a Reisong A10 EL34 for $215, I saw somebody on you tube that bought one and said it showed up and was fine? 3. Looking into bass trap / acoustic panels.
OP here, Sorry for no reply , been beyond super busy at work, sorry and thanks again to all of you. I ordered some dynaliner for the speakers, and will put that on soon, I toed them in to pass in front of me, out of direct path of my ears, pulled them out a few more inches and surprisingly got more bass, I also knocked the EQ 1k down, that also helped. These fixes were all recommended by this thread. I appreciate it. So, things are at least 50% better if not more, I'm happy enough not deal with the glass or new equipment for now, you guys really helped. thanks again !!!!!!
@sns, as there is radio silence from the OP I would like to ask you about the caps in your XO that I saw when looking at photos of your system. It looks like you have Audyn and Jupiter. How did you come to choose these over say Mundorf or Duelund?
+1 on room first. You'll never receive full value of any system in your room. Don't color the components, fix the room, then you can hear true sound signature of your system.
OP OK, The smart advice here is to treat the room. Know that all rooms need treatment. It’s a fact and I’ll say it again: all rooms need treatment, even the Royal Albert Hall, London had to have massive diffusers installed to get rid of the echo.
It was said that at RAH you could hear any concert twice :-)
The suggestion to add curtains and rugs will help a little but they are only narrow band absorbers and serve to unbalance the sound. What is needed is broad-band absorption and bass traps. You mention a mortgage so consider some easy and inexpensive DIY.
This will be cheaper than buying new stuff to try out. The problem is the sound is taking too long to decay. No EQ or similar device can reduce the echo. EQ can’t do anything to help overlong decay but can tweak a good room to compensate for electronics or speaker performance. I have never needed to resort to this band-aid.
I strongly urge you to look into room treatment regardless of choice of speaker. Like EQ, no speaker can control it’s own decay and this will plague any speaker in your room. So do not change your speaker or amp yet. Dial in the room first
I can go on at length explaining how to measure (simple) your room’s performance for the cost of a microphone for less than $100 but if this is not your thing then I will not waste our time. I assure you that if you could magically clap your hands and suddenly hear your existing system in your room with correct treatment you would be stunned at the results. It really is a big deal.
The advice to improve the crossover and damp the horns is solid but only after the room is sorted out. Any XO upgrade will be lost in the confusion of sound bouncing uncontrolled around your room, obscuring detail with bass nodes causing huge peaks and nulls. Nulls? caused by nodes cancelling which of course can’t be brought back with EQ
What you can try is a trick I sometimes use for piercing highs and that is to place vertically a 4" sponge paint roller obtainable from hardware outlets in the mouth of the horn/s. What this does is slightly attenuate and diffuse the horn output. I can offer lots of advice on how to improve the low cost XO. but you guessed it: Room First.
I should mention that I also updated the entire crossovers -> Crites boards in 2017. Was a substantial improvement and heartily recommend. I also replaced the diaphragms in the squawkers, but that might not be the route you should go until you balance out the room and gear.
I also heartily agree with others that room treatments will go far and should be considered regardless of gear changes.
With regards to @wilderness comment to put the speakers close to wall, my experience would contraindicate that. The forte IIs have a passive radiator in the back that tends to muffle the hell out of bass if placed too close to the wall and corners. I am usually about 2-3 feet into room.
Actually, without the mods, while I might not have been in hate group, call me lukewarm. Even in stock form I could hear the good and potential for better, even great. I'm sure being long time modder allowed me to hear potential. While my mods are not possible for many, there are some more simple mods that are effective in taming brightness. Yes, horn speakers are susceptible to tonal/timbre anomalies, but so are a lot of speakers.
I'd never advocate giving up on Klipsch Heritage, providing one is willing to work a bit. I also realize its not everyone's cup of tea, no harm, no foul.
I have Klipsch Chorus IIs, which are similar to yours. I found that a Pioneer SX-1050 was one of the worst matches, and it had been completely restored. I sold it. Too bright, and listening fatigue after < 30 minutes.
Sansui (60/70's) is an incredible match, as is quicksilver tube gear. I like Marantz, but prefer Sansui. With regards to gear made this decade, I tried Cambridge audio and thought it too was a poor match. Pass Labs is incredible (I built the 8WPC Amp Camp Amp, which is more than enough for your 80db). As far as restorations, I'm in the boat of replacing all electrolytics, known noisy or problematic transistors/diodes and updated small electrolytics with film caps. But others don't like to change anything that isn't broke. When it comes to 45-50 year old E-caps....those folks aren't getting all the highs.
Klipsch sound better with tubes more than ss, and I have owned Khorns, LaScalas, Hersey II's, etc. One thing about Klipsch, people either love them or hate them, there is no in the middle.
Not familiar with the Fortes but back in the eighties had a pair of La Scalas. Happy when I bought them, happier still when I sold them. Sorry, just not my cup of tea and this was when matched with the original Mac 275 and/or Marantz 2´s ( these I regret selling to the day). Your room is definitely adding to exasperating the brightness but the speakers character is what it is.
I have the original fortes. Amp is fisher x202b restored…l replaced the original crossover with alk crossovers (not of klipsch design) and upgraded the tweeter horns with Crites diaphragms….much improved…
Go with a tube amp and the noted upgrades and you will not be disappointed
I recently got a pair of Cornwall IV's and the first thing I did was follow the mods that are posted. The horns have a plastic housing that I dampened with dynamat and I also braced up the cabinets. Nice change and took some of the harshness out of the speakers. Do it. It works. Then you need to soften your room up. And last...let the Pioneer rest in peace. I had a Carver Crimson 275 laying around and I popped in some NOS signal tubes and fronted it with a Don Sachs pre and DAMN! The Cornwalls really sing! I completed the Klipsh mod by changing out the cheap caps in the crossover and easily heard everything smooth out. Tge Fortes are nice but the horns in the Klipsh horns all have plastic housings that definitely resonate. The Cornwalls are crazy good with some simple mods and tube amps.
Someone in the area could have another amplifier or another set of speakers.
Then if the pioneer was fine on other speakers that points to it “having been” ok. (Sure it could have changed)
If the Pioneer was on those speakers in another room and “all was well” then we know the mechanism that is at play here.
There is a thing called REW that the OP could download onto an iPhone/ipad, and that would give us some measured. info.
The idea of moving the speakers back to tyhe walll was mentioned earlier. I would also try moving them further into the room so one gets a more near field direct sound, and that would diminish the relative level of the reflected sound, and diminish the room brightness. And like @wilderness eloquent post (a few posts ^above^) mentioned ... “It is free”.
Here is the Pioneer receiver I had in 1980, the SX450. It had only 15 watts per channel, but it could play loudly. Andrew Robinson on YouTube said it is a good match with Klipsch speakers, with treble rolled off a bit.
He said he only got it professionally cleaned and the bulbs replaced, which cost only $150. That is all it needed.
So, your Pioneer receiver may be a good match with your Klipsch speakers after all.
Andrew Robinson said that one of the amps/receivers that sounds the best with his Klipsch speakers is a Pioneer that he had restored. So, that could be an option for your receiver.
Zero Fidelity has a review of the Sony STR-DH190 Stereo Receiver. Price: $170. He says it is neutral and does not have tipped up treble. And he said it plays well with Klipsch speakers. It has tone controls so that you can reduce the treble if needed. It has Bluetooth but no digital connections, and so if you want to play music from a connected computer with cables you would need an external DAC.
The price is so low that you could get it now, keep it for a few years, and then get something better later.
He also compares it to a $500 integrated amp.
Another consideration for receivers and amps is that the high sensitivity Forte II does not need many watts to play loudly. That provides more amp/receiver options and can help keep the cost down.
To help make you feel great about your Klipsch speakers, check out the YouTube video by Andrew Robinson about why he loves Klipsch speakers. Search YouTube for "WHY PERFECTION DOESN'T MATTER - La Scala Review"
Free: Aim the speakers straight ahead with no toe in. This will decrease the perceived treble at your listening position, assuming that you sit centered between the speakers.
Free: Position the speakers at the best distance from the front wall behind them to reinforce the bass. I have my GoldenEar speakers at 19.5 inches from the front wall, but your speakers should probably be something like five or six inches from the wall.
Free: Position your listening chair at the best distance from the back wall to reinforce the bass. I have my chair positioned so that my ears are 20 inches from the back wall (and I have a curtain and absorption panels behind me). Experiment to find what works best for your room and speakers.
Low cost: Position a large rug on the floor directly in front the speakers.
Low cost: Place curtains over the windows.
Low cost: Attach a large blanket or curtain on the front wall centered behind the speakers and another one on the wall directly behind you.
As funds permit: Purchase absorption panels and place a few of them on the wall behind the speakers, more on the wall behind you, and on the first reflection points on the sidewalls. You can use two inch thick acoustic foam panels for this because you only need to attenuate the treble and maybe the upper midrange. You don't need to cover the entire walls with absorption panels.
It could be that you find that none of this is enough, but it will help and it costs very little.
I had a new Pioneer receiver in 1980 and would rock out with Led Zeppelin way back then. I did nothing to treat the room and it sounded great. But as funds permit, your old receiver needs to be replaced with a new warm sounding amp/receiver. There are some warm amps/receivers that cost less than $800 new. Some YouTube channels to help find one include the Audiophiliac, Jay soulsik, and Zero Fidelity. All of them review budget gear that sounds great. Jay's YouTube channel also has a video about how he treated his room using items from a very low cost vendor.
You should know that many tube amps run hot and will heat up your entire room. So do most class A solid state amps. One option would be to purchase a class AB receiver that sounds warm. Most class AB amps/receivers run cool.
Ozzy62 maybe I should have simplified it for you.most people don’t have 20+ years into mods throughout . in the vast majority of speakers the Stock Xover is a liability , or weak link. The room for sure can be problematic . not seeing the layout ,and damping,or lack of is hard to say what is needed
1. Every speaker I have ever owned has benefited from room treatment. If what you're describing is accurate, (room) you won't be totally happy with any speaker until you take care of the room. 2. Those old Pioneers Receivers are grainy and miserable sounding... get rid of it! 3. Klipsch speakers done right, in the right room can be transforming! You might need to spend some time and money with crossovers, a little damping, tube amps, interconnects, etc.
@audioman58 Way too much info for this thread, OP looking for simple fixes. I happen to agree with you, my Klipschorn, extreme mods. I saw OP later post. He has idea of fixing room first, this is exactly how he should proceed. He then mentioned amp or new speaker next, Either could be best move for him.
I hav3 owned. All but the Khorn and even with the best effort the Xover by far is the weakest link then connectors ,on series 4 I believe they upgraded the wiring but the Xover parts inside are on par with Magnepan -Rubbish which I hav owned them also.I have been upgraded Xovers since 2k. Not even average in Anything IMO ,there’s your weak link upgrade to a much higher quality Xover cap to start , I see it all to often even in$15-$20k speakers like Magico, and Marten , for example Mundorf is good, the Supreme is their best Black color caps,the white Evo is a little better then average the white Evo silver gold oil capacitors this is what these $20kspeakers are using ,Why ? to save $$ .The cornwalls would be very-well suited with these capacitors That are a pretty decent and a good fit ,start with that and maybe Mundorfs Supreme resistors ,a substantial Sonic upgrade. The best capacitor setup I have found even vs the $$ Duelund cast capacitors is the excellent Jupiter Copperfoil caps with added 3% of the main capacitors value as a bypass cap the best out there VH audio CUTF bypass caps you get the tone and depth as well as pristine topend I just incorporated this in a dac for a friend and preamp this applies to the tweeter, midrange not bass but a bit $$ we just did a Magico A5 which was made a very-good speaker exceptional , path audio resistors are the RR of resistors at $26 each $$ but great . Just go to Humble homemade hifi capacitor test, Tony has been doing cap reviews for 2 decades and pretty accurate . Vhaudio does not donate free caps for reviews but very well know to DIY and techs , I do use the Vh Odam caps which are very good on some builds ,more neutral but very detailed depending on the system and speakers ,nothing is a perfect match Synergy is key 🔑.
Good points @corelli. But the dividends he reaps with room treatment will be helpful to any speaker he ends up with. From his description, that room is a nightmare for audio.
When you auditioned the Fortes did they strike you as bright? Have you listened to Klipsch speakers in the past, and if so, did you love the way they are voiced?
Most people would agree that Klipsch speakers are a bright speaker and that tends to polarize listeners--either you love them or hate them. If you can say you loved them in a different venue than by all means treat your bright sounding room.
The point I was trying to make earlier was that system synergy is all about fine tuning and nuance. It is not to correct something you fundamentally don't love. You can season and sear an filet mignon to perfection but if you really don't like steak, what's the point?
I have to say that I'd never want to have to switch between speakers to enjoy all the music I like. I also think you're putting too much analysis into this. It seems to me that the speakers don't work for you. Sell them and get something else. Don't waste time and money trying to fix something that for you is fundamentally broken.
I owned Forte II's years ago. The biggest issue I had with them was amp. I used them with B&K and before that NAD. I was young and poor and didn't know any better. They were too bright. Yet, I would love to have them back now. I'm putting together a small cabin system and have a Jolida JD-1000a integrated amp and Spica TC-50 speakers which are not cutting it. The 1000a is a EL-34 tube based amp and I feel, it would be a perfect match for the Forte's. I currently looking for Heresy's or Forte's. Advise: Try out an EL-34 tube based amp.
He needs to change only one variable at a time, changing room first may allow him to live with rest of system. If he intends on keeping Klipsch (which do have some admirable qualities even in stock form), damping the horns could be a next possible solution, assuming he still has issues with brightness after only room treatments. Still has issues, go to tube amp, I, and many others who own Klipsch prefer tubes as we have the similar tonality/timbre issues with most ss amps. He could explore the first two options with practically no cash outlay. If resources of no concern, I'd suggest the room fixes with professional treatments together with tube amp as initial moves. Purchasing new speakers first upsets the entire balance of what he presently has, like starting all over again from scratch. Keep the Klipsch and proceed in incremental steps.
Also, how would you quantify which fix worked? First fix room, then speaker/rack location, then electronics.
If the room needs to be done anyhow then doing it 1st makes sense.
But if the speakers are new, then I would return them quickly.
While speaker placement is important, the speakers are also important. And your list above does not even mention that the speakers might be a contributor..
The good part is that that list is also a long ways towards having a decent start at an Ishikawa diagram. And they are all valid causal mechanisms that can result in the observed problem.
I'd agree room would be first thing. Second could be wrap horn rather than change amp. I can only tell you the horn on my Klipschorn went from ringing like a bell to sounding like a damp rag. I tried everything from tiny to large amounts of various damping materials, no sense of natural timbre for me. Still, the damping could work for him if not as sensitive to timbre and tonal anomalies as myself. I still prefer tube amp vs ss amp on Klipsch Heritage, although I did have a little Musical Fidelity M2SI integrated ss in for a time that really wasn't too bad.
First things first. Fix the room before doing anything else. It's like building a house and making the foundation later on.
It may mean more than just adding curtains. Place a rug on the tile floor. Wood and tile floors look great with a nicely matching rug (rug shops let you try several rugs for free for a few days before buying).
Why do I say this? Because you will learn so much about how to deal with room acoustics. It’s also fascinating how some changes seem to make a huge difference and how some are very subtle.
Also, how would you quantify which fix worked? First fix room, then speaker/rack location, then electronics.
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