Just about to pull the trigger on Pontus 15th ...

@lanx0003 I wouldn't say I was blown away by the Dayzee but from my listening experiences it's good. Not a lot of micro detail popping out..music sounded good though. If I could do it all over again I would go with the Micro Laiv..& saved a good deal of cash to boot. 

@tablejockey Move the thread to digital.

He mentioned that at the beginning, so I thought he might be the person who could move it from the back end. Anyway, it was my fault for accidentally putting it in the Analog category.  

+1 Ozzy62.

Still scratching my head at how this thread ended up in the Analog forum...

I listened to their Dayzee at the last Florida audio show & thought it was really good. 

And Old Guy HiFi said Harmony micro Dac beats it... take with a grain of salt as always...

I have no experience with the Laiv products, but I do know that the distributor Alvin Chee is an amazing person to deal with.....as he was the former distributor for Denafrips. I spent some time with him at Axpona.

That being said, there is a huge installed base of Denafrips DACs that sing their praise......myself included.

@halfastro right on. I'm familiar with the very early AKM J2. I felt it was a smidge "warmish" itself when I compared it to my sabre dacs. Not something I picked up on until I really compared them. For the money a good dac. I listened to their Dayzee at the last Florida audio show & thought it was really good. 

@mattw73 I upgraded from the Geshelli Labs J2. I enjoy the smooth warm sound of the Ares 15th. It mellows out my Advance Paris A10 classic and B&W 705s. It makes a very nice sound. 

@halfastro can I ask you which dac you were using prior to owning your Ares 15th? 

I'm always curious what kind of differences you perceived..or what you like better with your Ares? 

Thank you for the impression on Pontus II.  The refund policy by Harmony is a flat fee of $100 based on my understanding.

Would not go with Pontus if it was me. I have second iteration. Lacks notably in soundstage height. Emphasis of high frequency detail which is quite nice but is not  the incisive dynamic sound I prefer. Haven't heard Harmony, but would definitely make sure there is a return policy if you don't like it. Make sure seller pays for shipping in the event you have to return it.

Got it, Thank you @perkri.

@lanx0003 

Read my previous statement. You have to pay the tariff to your government. It’s an import tax. You’re importing it, you pay the taxes. And what difference does it make if you are paying the seller/manufacturer, or your government directly? It still has to be paid. 

Alvin made an personal announcement earlier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wy5-Jw1phY

Basically, what he’s saying is that May 2nd will be the start date for the incoming tariffs, and he urges people to act by April 20th to ensure they have enough time to process and ship their products before the deadline. I assume he was speaking only on behalf of Vinshine, not manufacturers in general.

There was a question to Alvin—would we need to handle any potential import duties at customs ourselves, or will Vinshine take care of that for the buyers once we’ve paid the asking price? He didn’t address this in his earlier announcement.

@lanx0003 

Whatever tariffs (taxes) are decided on goods imported to the US from Singapore, will be payable by you, the importer, to the US government. You’re paying it as a tax to your government. 

I have the Ares 15th and I think it’s great. 

@lanx0003 Yes, 50 ohms.   I had read that sine wave was recommended, so I hadn't tried square wave.  After you mentioned it, I did some internet searching and found forum posts where people found that the square wave yielded additional detail. Some felt it was too much. I figured it was worth a try. 

I think the LHY clock is definitely better than the clock in the Gustard U18.  I haven't tried the internal clock on the dac with square wave going to U18.  Figured it made sense to connect them both externally, but maybe it's fine to mix them.

Thanks again for the suggestion. :)

@sls883 

That’s fantastic. I believe Gustard gear works with either waveform, but according to their website, a sine wave connection is actually recommended—and the chart reflects that. You might want to try and compare both.

The 50-ohm impedance matches, right?

This suggests that the LHY 10MHz master OCXO is quite good, elevating the performance of already state-of-the-art gear. I’m tempted!

@lanx0003 Maybe my hearing is just better early in the day, but changing to square wave connections to both the ddc and dac is sounding really good.  A hair more clarity and better separation of instruments and harmonized vocals.  Bass notes seem better defined and punchier.  I'll listen more tonight, but I think I'll leave it this way.  Thank you for the suggestion! 

@lanx0003   I have a LHY OCK-2.  I'll try that some time. 

Also, @sls883, does your external clock have multiple outputs, like the LHY OCK-2? If it does, try sending the square wave signal to both the U18 and X30 and see what kind of difference it makes.

It makes sense.  My understanding is that, in the chain

Innuos (usb) -> U18 (i2s) -> X30 that you have,

U18 is doing the re-clocking of usb signal.  If using external master clock in U18, it will help clean the output from U18 going into X30.  The cleaner the output from the upstream DDC, the better (less jitter and phase noise) the signal will go into DAC.  So in this case it is better off to use master clock in U18. 

OK. I read your question again. You were asking about the clock into the ddc.  I was commenting on the clock into the dac. 

I hadn't really tried switching between the external and internal clocks on the ddc. So, I tried that tonight. I do think the external clock helps here. Seems like a little more clarity and punch.  

I don't exactly understand how these clocks work to be honest....

Yes, I have.  To be honest, I don't hear any difference, but my dac has a pretty good clock built in. 

Thank you for the feedback, @sls883.  Have you also used 10Mhz clock into U18?

@lanx0003 So, I decided to try the direct USB connection between my streamer and dac eliminating the DDC.  It still sounds really good, but I do notice a little bit less detail and clarity.  Like you said, that could be the DDC, or it could be that my dac is optimized for I2S.  I have no way to test it because my Innuos only has USB outputs.  

Anyway, I'll leave the DDC in the chain.  

@mikhailark Don’t worry. The disagreement originates from misunderstanding.  The factory PS for micro DAC is indeed SMPS, a good low noise one. However, the micro DAC takes 15V 2A and you could throw in 15V, min. 30VA LPS to power it.  A good LPS with low ripple noise at both empty and full loads ranges from $120 (like LHY) to a few hundreds.  Soundnews actually tests both options and find the factory SMPS is ’good enough’.

One other space-saving aspect of the micro DAC is that it only comes with XLR output.  Also, according to a reliable source, the dual beefy transformers in the Denafrips Pontus account for roughly 24%–32% of its total weight. After subtracting those, along with associated components and the chassis weight that would no longer be needed with an external power supply, I’m afraid what remains might be roughly equivalent to the Harmony DAC.

The small form factor offers necessary space savings for some users, and as long as it doesn’t compromise quality, I’m more than willing to accept it. However, to claim that the physical size of a device directly impacts its sonic quality — I just haven’t seen any evidence to support that. So for now, I’ll sit tight and wait for the next reliable review I’ve been looking forward to.

@lanx0003 - "we are in a violent agreement"  I do have a little distrust for small form factors from engineering perspective. Placing power supply externally is a good thing, BUT in 90% this will be a switching PS wall wart. This means noise may and will come over the low voltage wire. Second issue is that external simple PS brings a single voltage. This limits circuit design since some may call for multiple power voltages while being isolated. This is why external PS in $$$$ equipment use proprietary connectors since they carry multiple voltages. So Denafrips most probably uses multiple different voltages isolated from each other. This give more freedom to the the circuit designer BUT also calls for better shielding and larger form factor.

Disclosure: I own Terminator 12th with Iris DDC. 

Yes, price does not play the music.  And I concur with what you have just said. That’s why I showcased the internals of this micro DAC from the start, including 0.05% precision/tolerance resistor packs, galvanic isolation (between analog and digital), a femto clock, and a discrete Class A output stage that provides low output impedance for better matching.

One way they managed to fit all those quality components into such a small chassis was by placing the power supply externally. In contrast, several bulky and heavy DACs, like the Denafrips Pontus, have multiple transformers built in and shielded internally.  There are pros and cons of doing either way...

@lanx0003 - "These days, as you know, it’s actually quite hard to find a bad or even mediocre DAC at any price point". Oh yes, you can . Thing is, any DAC has analog parts. There is a price limit on quality capacitors, power supply and sufficient space to isolate, shield and ground components. Plus, each chip and technology calls for different analog parts (filters, etc) so they WILL sound different. This, of course, does not mean that $$$$ is always better than $$, but there is a limit. Always check engineering and photos of unit internals.

It would be useful information to know. However, you wouldn’t be able to tell whether any difference comes from the DDC, the I²S connection, or the combination of both. I recall there were some ‘serious’ discussions on this topic a while ago.  The topic gets even more convoluted once you bring the 'clock' into the picture.

I’m using a Gustard U18 DDC between my Innuos streamer and dac.  It converts USB to I2S.  I checked with Gustard and Innuos about using the U18 or skipping it and going USB directly from the streamer to my dac.  Both Gustard and Innuos recommended using the DDC, so I never tried it without the U18.  I already had the U18, so I’m using it.

I’ll probably try going USB direct from my streamer to my dac to see if I hear any difference.  I really thought that Gustard or Innuos would suggest skipping the U18. 

I have a couple of streamers, including CA, Wiim, and iFi. Recently, I bought an SMSL PO100 Pro (DDC) to use with the Wiim Ultra, and the improvement is noticeable—though I wouldn’t say it’s significant.  it doesn’t improve though a bit when used with the iFi, which already has galvanic isolation built in.

I know you’re quite content with the X30. Are you using I²S to get its full potential? That’s next on my to-do list.

Makes sense.  If you like what you have, no rush to do anything.  I don't recall what you are using for a dac.  I think you have a Cambridge streamer?

I'm happy with my current dac.  It is better than the R26.  It's a chip dac which isn't popular among some folks, but I think it sounds good and that's what matters. I don't plan to upgrade any time soon.

The return cost for the Harmony is $100, assuming no additional tariffs are involved. But that's not the main reason for my hesitation. I'm not that desperate—my system already sounds better than just okay. Patience will pay off. One of my most trusted reviewers is set to post his review any time now.

It seems like there are enough positive reviews for the Harmony micro dac that it's worth rolling the dice and trying one.  It's nice that the ddc could take it to another level if you ever got the upgrade bug. 

I took a chance on my current dac based on a couple of reviews that I hoped were accurate and honest.  There was a return option that would have cost me about $150 but I ended up keeping it. 

@mattw73  Still not vinyl with my digital source. Sounds like a regular good dac but with better stage & depth & imaging. Does not sound overly warm like R2R’s had been described to me. As far as just the clarity & things of that nature I probably couldn’t tell it apart from a chip dac. It’s all those other perceptions & lack of glare/hardness that makes it different from what I was using.

Thank you for your honesty. Many people exaggerate their experiences to justify the cost of pricier gear. These days, as you know, it’s actually quite hard to find a bad or even mediocre DAC at any price point. I mentioned before that I couldn’t tell the difference between a very affordable SMSL DAC and the much-hyped Gustard R26 on my humble system — and yet both it and my ears have been capable of revealing flaws in, and retiring, several mid-tier DACs I’ve owned over the past few years.

One more review just came out yesterday on the Harmony micro DAC. The reviewer highly praises it over several other candidates on my shortlist, including the Chord Qutest, Denafrips Pontus 12th, Topping D90 (or was it the Centaurus?), and others. He also mentions that adding the matching micro DDC takes the experience to another level up with Harmony DAC.  Very interesting. I say that because the Chief Engineer and designer of Harmony DDC mentioned that it makes only a subtle difference. These days, it's hard to know what to believe or what to expect anymore.

@lanx0003 about 160-170 hours in when I was watching/listening to TV thru the dac when voices & conversation just become clear & crisp. Watching a movie & a phone rang off screen in another room & the ringing came from wide outside my left speaker & more 3 dimensional than anytime before with this dac. It wasn't I think things became clearer but a definite noticeable moment. 

I had emailed Denafrips to maybe suggest something was wrong with my unit. They didn't really respond to that but just mentioned that they "break in" the dac for 200 hours & usually after 100 hours on our end the dac should be good. I had been running the dac 8 days but it had been shut off a few times here & there. Maybe closer to 180hrs on my end. 

It just finally opened up to a clarity of sound that I'm used to. Like any decent dac should sound in that department. And yes, with the clarity came the more defined edges..less smearing of instruments. With busier music or multiple instruments playing there is better separation when comparing to my previous dac. Easier to discern when a drummer is going higher & lower on a drum kit..the spacing between the drums is more defined (Money-Pink Floyd) Or visualizing fingers going up & down a harp is more focused (Comme un Tango-Belanger & Bisson)

I really haven't been able to do hours of critical listening as we haven't been home since early Friday. The little time I've had with it since it opened up I realize I need to reposition my speakers. Having a TV between the speakers & not being able to pull the speakers way out into the room I really am missing a lot of the spatial cues the DAC has to offer. Pulling the speakers further out for a couple tracks really showed off what the dac is capable of as far as placement & depth of instruments. In a more open or dedicated listening room I could more appreciate the nuances of this dac.

Listening for a short period last Friday made it very apparent my living room is not set up for the finest side of audio listening. I have a spare room I used to listen to vinyl in, I may need to reconsider using that room again. Or at least stop spending money in my living room. I can only get so much out of this listening space..no better quality of gear can improve it. 

I went off sideways again from the question you asked. The "new" clarity did improve all things. The edges & separation are all there. Without that hardness or glare I've spoken of. Still not vinyl with my digital source. Sounds like a regular good dac but with better stage & depth & imaging. Does not sound overly warm like R2R's had been described to me. As far as just the clarity & things of that nature I probably couldn't tell it apart from a chip dac. It's all those other perceptions & lack of glare/hardness that makes it different from what I was using. Which if you know your system well you would probably be able to pick the R2R out in comparisons with your set up.  My opinion anyway. 

@mattw73  Thank you for the update. Approximately how many hours of break-in did it take before you noticed the change? That’s good news. How about the separation within the soundstage—do the edges become more clearly defined as the 'veil' is lifted? I mostly listen to classical and Jazz.  Thx.

@lanx0003 I just wanted to add to this thread about my personal experience with the 15th. The dac did indeed clear up its sound for me Still not bright or fatiguing in any way but a level of clarity opened up. Like that old saying..a veil had been lifted. Which helps & improved the overall sound stage. 

Hey friends.

Shipping to the US has been smooth sailing so far. But that being said, we do not know what is coming, and when. One thing we are certain is that - when the tariff hit, the cost will be much higher.  I’d recommend placing an order now to secure it at the current pricing as a form of saving, as things can change anytime.

Many thanks,

Alvin Chee

Vinshine Audio

Some reviewers seem to like it.

@alvin1118 Will one be paying extra tariffs now? Do we need to be concerned for customs clearance ourselves?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaGJ9s9nork&t=686s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8yTCFLjOso

@lanx0003 I was using the sabre model of the RME ADI-2 FS. I have no experience of a modern R2R dac. I have used a SMSL in the past & thought it was great..the SU-10. Comparable to the RME, probably a little more expansive soundstage. I ended up going with the RME because of it's PEQ function. I went with the 15th for the main reasons of trying to find a deeper soundstage & lessen the slight digital glare/hardness from some female vocal tracks. 

The Pontus does improve upon those 2 things. I chatted with a gentleman last night about the 15th. He said he received his about 2 weeks before I did. He seems quite certain that because we were waiting awhile for our units that they were shipped without the normal 200 hours break in. He said he had not had any reason to believe electrical components needed that type of break in from past experience but that his unit improved dramatically over the 3 weeks of using it & not turning it off for a couple weeks.  Told me to be patient..he was not impressed right out of the box & shared some subjective thoughts about it that aligned with mine..though I had not gone into detail about my impressions other than I wasn't impressed with it & that it lacked some focus. 

I will report that using the RCA input on the 15th last weekend I felt it was on par with the USB input. We fiddled with the RCA outputs & were able to get any RCA cable firmly pushed all the way in. That was a relief. 

That Harmony mini dac could be the good value unit. Alvin seems to be standing behind it. I'm at least convinced that R2R can expand the stage in a different way & reduce that digital hardness/glare. If the mini can accomplish that & keep the clarity & detail it's probably a solid winner for the price. I'd like to try one to at least get a better idea of what these R2R's are about. I'd like to have some experience with a few different models to get a good feel for them & if they really differ from good chip dacs. 

Hey friends,

Sorry for the currency confusion. The price on Vinshine Audio website is in Singapore dollars. If you'd like to purchase the LAiV uDAC with LPS bundle in US dollars, it's available via our sister company Beatechnik: link here.

The LAiV Audio uDAC isn’t just another DAC—it’s a high-end one packed into a small, compact size. It’s pretty impressive. The sound quality is really close to the bigger Harmony DAC, but it costs just a third of the price. To put it simply, the Harmony DAC can compete with way more expensive models—so we knew the uDAC would be a big hit.

If you’re looking for a DAC around this price—or even higher—I’d definitely go for the uDAC. It’s just that good.

Happy listening! 

Alvin Chee

Founder of Vinshine Audio & Beatechnik

@mattw73 It might not have the most punchy slam but the bass is accurate. It’s tight, detailed, & nuanced. It’s kind of weird, it doesn’t sound like it’s super deep or expressive but I can hear/feel it in the walls behind the couch..different from my prior dac. The 15th also puts the vocalists in it’s natural position where my other dac put it a little out front of the speakers no matter the track. 

Using my Ultravalve or SET amp I do get more "meat on the bones" & some extended spatial cues. Maybe a hint more than my sabre dac. I certainly don’t feel like it’s pulling out any more information or more resolving than a sabre dac. But I can detect the slight smoothness or lack of hardness on the top end in comparison. That is probably the biggest difference. But then I feel you are losing some of the clean edges of the notes in space & perception. There is more depth to the soundstage but without those etched lines separating everything. There is separation..but not as pinpoint focused.

Thank you for pointing out those details; in particular, the depth of soundstage I’m craving from an upgraded DAC—separation, cleanly outlined edges, pinpoint focus, and articulated bass, etc. Which Sabre DAC were you comparing it to?

I don’t think you’re being overly critical. I believe $2-3K is the price point where diminishing returns set in for a DAC. I compared the Gustard R26, a highly praised R2R DAC, with a lower-priced Sabre DAC from SMSL in a fairly extensive audition after a 150-hour break-in period for the R26. On my humble system, I couldn’t meaningfully detect a sonic difference between them. However, I did notice differences among the seven DACs I’ve tested so far, which ranged in price from $200 to $500.

For now, I’ll probably put the idea of purchasing the 15th on hold. I’m afraid the sonic performance you described might be the ceiling for all R2R DACs in the $1,500–$2,000 range.

@lanx0003 I think I saw that review...headphone guy? 

My experiences have no issues or noticed any brightness. First few days some dullness & maybe some hardness on top but never bright or fatiguing. With my Bel Canto pre & Hypex Nilai amp I feel like I can get a feel for whatever the source or dac has to offer. There is no added thickness to the notes from the 15th..which maybe someone might construe as "lean" but I think it's just relaying what the streamer/source is giving it. 

I played around with it quite a bit this weekend. It might not have the most punchy slam but the bass is accurate. It's tight, detailed, & nuanced. It's kind of weird, it doesn't sound like it's super deep or expressive but I can hear/feel it in the walls behind the couch..different from my prior dac. The 15th also puts the vocalists in it's natural position where my other dac put it a little out front of the speakers no matter the track. 

Using my Ultravalve or SET amp I do get more "meat on the bones" & some extended spatial cues. Maybe a hint more than my sabre dac. I certainly don't feel like it's pulling out any more information or more resolving than a sabre dac. But I can detect the slight smoothness or lack of hardness on the top end in comparison. That is probably the biggest difference. But then I feel you are losing some of the clean edges of the notes in space & perception. There is more depth to the soundstage but without those etched lines separating everything. There is separation..but not as pinpoint focused. 

My wife & daughter went prom dress shopping this weekend. A buddy of mine that owns the regular pontus  came over for the day & brought his Sopra N1 bookshelves. He does feel that there is a level of clarity to the 15th that the original doesn't have. Neither of us mentioned anything of brightness with the 15th & the  Focal's..though his tweeters have more extension & sparkle than my Scan-Speaks. His also produce some serious bass & were too close to the front wall on my set up. He was very impressed with the vocals on my Fritz & was amazed with the Class D Nilai amp..I let him take it home. He thinks if I give the 15th more time it will shift into better focus. He said after a couple weeks his original Pontus just fell into place. He says I'm over critical & if I want better I'm going to have to spend more & to get some bass treatment behind the speakers. 

So yeah, I'm probably a bit over critical..but I already know that when I bring something new or different into the house. The 15th is a good dac..but when these "reviewers" build it up like it's the best thing in its price class I'm going to be honest with myself if I feel it doesn't do all things better than something cheaper. But I have to remember that everything in audio equipment is usually a compromise. A mixture of something great & something ok. There is definitely not that hint of glare or hardness with the R2R that I've experienced with chip dacs. That alone should be worth the price of admission..but I can't help picking something apart when I'm evaluating. But once I decide on something I have the ability to enjoy it for what it's worth. At the end of the day I  love music. I can appreciate a pair of cheap earbuds when I just want to hear some tunes. 

@mattw73  According to Wave Theory, the new Denafrips 15th leans toward the bright side of neutral, in contrast to the warmer sound signature of the original Pontus or Pontus II. The treble resolution is enhanced, but it lacks the rich mids and powerful low-end slam of the Schiit BF II.  When streaming high-resolution OS files, its sound quality might be on par with the Laiv DAC. However, when the Laiv DAC streams high-resolution OS files, the gap becomes more apparent.  In short, system pairing—including the amplifier and/or preamp—is critical. If your system is already bright, the Denafrips 15th might not be the best fit.

Yeah my 2 lowest impedance amps are an Arcam PA240 at 10k & a Rotel RB-1582mkii at 12k..this is their single ended inputs. Not an issue with solid state but I favor tube preamps. When I bought the Arcam I was unaware of its input. I had a Arcam SA30 & liked the amplification of it so much when I saw a deal on the PA240 I grabbed it. At the time it was an issue for my favorite preamps & I regretted buying it. It was very disheartening. 

With preamps you can compensate a little by upping the value on the output caps which most tube preamps have. But when the match is really bad it's like you said..less drive/gain. I'd have rolled off bass & hot treble. If the match was really bad it will add noise into the system. Also a lot of times what the manufacturer specs isn't always legit. It could be a 1k output at 1khz with the volume full blast..with the impedance actually being much higher at other frequency's & volume levels. 

My kit amp that is 1600ohms at its highest & that I said paired well with the 10k Arcam was actually rated at 800ohms by the designer..which he measured at 1 frequency. 

In your situation without knowing for sure how the Pontus would match I would probably try something like the micro first. Then if maybe you don't care for the micro you could go for the 15th. Personally I'd like to hear your thoughts & opinions on the Harmony model. I'm going to give the Pontus a lot more time but I'm not really impressed with it thus far. I've been strictly using my Icon preamp & Fritz REV7 SE speakers but switching amps every couple days. I work from home & listen to music 6 or 7 hours a day..with at least an hour of it sitting between the speakers. I listen to a lot of music. When I'm not playing music I have the TV going thru the dac. It still hasn't even been a week though so I'll pump the breaks on criticizing it more than I already have. 

I think that Harmony uDac looks pretty cool. I like that one has the choice to use their own power supply. The guys at Vinshine think it's a great value piece..which is usually the stuff I'm always interested in. It's getting good reviews but then all these R2R's seem to get that..but this unit is under $1k before tax. No impedance issues either. 

Wow, no apparent issue from 10k to 12k! Maybe I, along with many others, have been overly concerned. But here’s my experience: I used a preamp with a 5k output impedance into an amp with a 20k input impedance, and the sound felt restrained. However, this particular preamp was well received by some, if not the majority. I tend to attribute this to a matching issue.

I had been eyeing Denafrips for a long time, but its high output impedance was always a hurdle that kept me from pulling the trigger. Then the Harmony DAC had the same design—until this micro DAC came along, seemingly designed to address matching concerns. I don’t know. I guess I’ll never know until I try, right?

@lanx0003 yeah I understood your question & concerns but I ended up babbling on about my situation. My experience with impedance matching has only been with preamps & amps as far as close calls & definite issues from mismatches. I have a 10k input & a 12k input amps. I've been as close as an 8x's difference between the 2 & didn't notice any meaningful issues. I've had preamps in that 5k range & probably higher depending on frequency where noise & brightness occurs. Stuff like my old PAS preamps caused issues with all my modern day solid state amp. 

I've run my MTK kit preamp which can be as High as 1800ohms sound quite nice with my 10k amp. Not exactly the same situation between dac & preamp though. Maybe someone else will chime in with something similar to your exact question.