Just about to pull the trigger on Pontus 15th ...

Thank you, @tablejockey.

Vinshine prices seem to be quite a bit higher

That was in Singapore dollars.  Singapore dollars S$1349 / US$994.  In terms of duty, if the U.S. tariff takes effect, Denafrips will likely be the first to react. I recall Denafrips started collecting a 20% tariff but soon removed it. It is still not being collected, but could be reinstated any time.

@ozzy62 @mattw73 @klipscher @curiousjim @jastralfu @2psyop

Does the high output impedance of 1,250 ohms from the Denafrips DAC ever bother you in terms of impedance matching? The Harmony DAC has an identical measurement, but the µDAC brings it down to 80 ohms. I have a preamp with an input impedance rated at only 10k so I am concerned about the matching.  Thx.

@mattw73 Thank you for sharing. If your preamp has an output impedance of 50k ohms, it should not have any matching issues with the Denafrips DAC, whether using RCA (625 ohms) or XLR (1250 ohms). I was referring to my own preamp, which has only a 10k ohm output impedance and might have some issues since the ratio is less than 10. I was surprised to hear that the RCA input of the Pontus does not perform well.

Wow, no apparent issue from 10k to 12k! Maybe I, along with many others, have been overly concerned. But here’s my experience: I used a preamp with a 5k output impedance into an amp with a 20k input impedance, and the sound felt restrained. However, this particular preamp was well received by some, if not the majority. I tend to attribute this to a matching issue.

I had been eyeing Denafrips for a long time, but its high output impedance was always a hurdle that kept me from pulling the trigger. Then the Harmony DAC had the same design—until this micro DAC came along, seemingly designed to address matching concerns. I don’t know. I guess I’ll never know until I try, right?

@mattw73  According to Wave Theory, the new Denafrips 15th leans toward the bright side of neutral, in contrast to the warmer sound signature of the original Pontus or Pontus II. The treble resolution is enhanced, but it lacks the rich mids and powerful low-end slam of the Schiit BF II.  When streaming high-resolution OS files, its sound quality might be on par with the Laiv DAC. However, when the Laiv DAC streams high-resolution OS files, the gap becomes more apparent.  In short, system pairing—including the amplifier and/or preamp—is critical. If your system is already bright, the Denafrips 15th might not be the best fit.

@mattw73 It might not have the most punchy slam but the bass is accurate. It’s tight, detailed, & nuanced. It’s kind of weird, it doesn’t sound like it’s super deep or expressive but I can hear/feel it in the walls behind the couch..different from my prior dac. The 15th also puts the vocalists in it’s natural position where my other dac put it a little out front of the speakers no matter the track. 

Using my Ultravalve or SET amp I do get more "meat on the bones" & some extended spatial cues. Maybe a hint more than my sabre dac. I certainly don’t feel like it’s pulling out any more information or more resolving than a sabre dac. But I can detect the slight smoothness or lack of hardness on the top end in comparison. That is probably the biggest difference. But then I feel you are losing some of the clean edges of the notes in space & perception. There is more depth to the soundstage but without those etched lines separating everything. There is separation..but not as pinpoint focused.

Thank you for pointing out those details; in particular, the depth of soundstage I’m craving from an upgraded DAC—separation, cleanly outlined edges, pinpoint focus, and articulated bass, etc. Which Sabre DAC were you comparing it to?

I don’t think you’re being overly critical. I believe $2-3K is the price point where diminishing returns set in for a DAC. I compared the Gustard R26, a highly praised R2R DAC, with a lower-priced Sabre DAC from SMSL in a fairly extensive audition after a 150-hour break-in period for the R26. On my humble system, I couldn’t meaningfully detect a sonic difference between them. However, I did notice differences among the seven DACs I’ve tested so far, which ranged in price from $200 to $500.

For now, I’ll probably put the idea of purchasing the 15th on hold. I’m afraid the sonic performance you described might be the ceiling for all R2R DACs in the $1,500–$2,000 range.

Some reviewers seem to like it.

@alvin1118 Will one be paying extra tariffs now? Do we need to be concerned for customs clearance ourselves?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaGJ9s9nork&t=686s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8yTCFLjOso

Thank you for the impression on Pontus II.  The refund policy by Harmony is a flat fee of $100 based on my understanding.

@mattw73  Thank you for the update. Approximately how many hours of break-in did it take before you noticed the change? That’s good news. How about the separation within the soundstage—do the edges become more clearly defined as the 'veil' is lifted? I mostly listen to classical and Jazz.  Thx.

@mattw73  Still not vinyl with my digital source. Sounds like a regular good dac but with better stage & depth & imaging. Does not sound overly warm like R2R’s had been described to me. As far as just the clarity & things of that nature I probably couldn’t tell it apart from a chip dac. It’s all those other perceptions & lack of glare/hardness that makes it different from what I was using.

Thank you for your honesty. Many people exaggerate their experiences to justify the cost of pricier gear. These days, as you know, it’s actually quite hard to find a bad or even mediocre DAC at any price point. I mentioned before that I couldn’t tell the difference between a very affordable SMSL DAC and the much-hyped Gustard R26 on my humble system — and yet both it and my ears have been capable of revealing flaws in, and retiring, several mid-tier DACs I’ve owned over the past few years.

One more review just came out yesterday on the Harmony micro DAC. The reviewer highly praises it over several other candidates on my shortlist, including the Chord Qutest, Denafrips Pontus 12th, Topping D90 (or was it the Centaurus?), and others. He also mentions that adding the matching micro DDC takes the experience to another level up with Harmony DAC.  Very interesting. I say that because the Chief Engineer and designer of Harmony DDC mentioned that it makes only a subtle difference. These days, it's hard to know what to believe or what to expect anymore.

The return cost for the Harmony is $100, assuming no additional tariffs are involved. But that's not the main reason for my hesitation. I'm not that desperate—my system already sounds better than just okay. Patience will pay off. One of my most trusted reviewers is set to post his review any time now.

I have a couple of streamers, including CA, Wiim, and iFi. Recently, I bought an SMSL PO100 Pro (DDC) to use with the Wiim Ultra, and the improvement is noticeable—though I wouldn’t say it’s significant.  it doesn’t improve though a bit when used with the iFi, which already has galvanic isolation built in.

I know you’re quite content with the X30. Are you using I²S to get its full potential? That’s next on my to-do list.

It would be useful information to know. However, you wouldn’t be able to tell whether any difference comes from the DDC, the I²S connection, or the combination of both. I recall there were some ‘serious’ discussions on this topic a while ago.  The topic gets even more convoluted once you bring the 'clock' into the picture.

Yes, price does not play the music.  And I concur with what you have just said. That’s why I showcased the internals of this micro DAC from the start, including 0.05% precision/tolerance resistor packs, galvanic isolation (between analog and digital), a femto clock, and a discrete Class A output stage that provides low output impedance for better matching.

One way they managed to fit all those quality components into such a small chassis was by placing the power supply externally. In contrast, several bulky and heavy DACs, like the Denafrips Pontus, have multiple transformers built in and shielded internally.  There are pros and cons of doing either way...

@mikhailark Don’t worry. The disagreement originates from misunderstanding.  The factory PS for micro DAC is indeed SMPS, a good low noise one. However, the micro DAC takes 15V 2A and you could throw in 15V, min. 30VA LPS to power it.  A good LPS with low ripple noise at both empty and full loads ranges from $120 (like LHY) to a few hundreds.  Soundnews actually tests both options and find the factory SMPS is ’good enough’.

One other space-saving aspect of the micro DAC is that it only comes with XLR output.  Also, according to a reliable source, the dual beefy transformers in the Denafrips Pontus account for roughly 24%–32% of its total weight. After subtracting those, along with associated components and the chassis weight that would no longer be needed with an external power supply, I’m afraid what remains might be roughly equivalent to the Harmony DAC.

The small form factor offers necessary space savings for some users, and as long as it doesn’t compromise quality, I’m more than willing to accept it. However, to claim that the physical size of a device directly impacts its sonic quality — I just haven’t seen any evidence to support that. So for now, I’ll sit tight and wait for the next reliable review I’ve been looking forward to.

Thank you for the feedback, @sls883.  Have you also used 10Mhz clock into U18?

It makes sense.  My understanding is that, in the chain

Innuos (usb) -> U18 (i2s) -> X30 that you have,

U18 is doing the re-clocking of usb signal.  If using external master clock in U18, it will help clean the output from U18 going into X30.  The cleaner the output from the upstream DDC, the better (less jitter and phase noise) the signal will go into DAC.  So in this case it is better off to use master clock in U18. 

Also, @sls883, does your external clock have multiple outputs, like the LHY OCK-2? If it does, try sending the square wave signal to both the U18 and X30 and see what kind of difference it makes.

@sls883 

That’s fantastic. I believe Gustard gear works with either waveform, but according to their website, a sine wave connection is actually recommended—and the chart reflects that. You might want to try and compare both.

The 50-ohm impedance matches, right?

This suggests that the LHY 10MHz master OCXO is quite good, elevating the performance of already state-of-the-art gear. I’m tempted!

Alvin made an personal announcement earlier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wy5-Jw1phY

Basically, what he’s saying is that May 2nd will be the start date for the incoming tariffs, and he urges people to act by April 20th to ensure they have enough time to process and ship their products before the deadline. I assume he was speaking only on behalf of Vinshine, not manufacturers in general.

There was a question to Alvin—would we need to handle any potential import duties at customs ourselves, or will Vinshine take care of that for the buyers once we’ve paid the asking price? He didn’t address this in his earlier announcement.

Got it, Thank you @perkri.

I listened to their Dayzee at the last Florida audio show & thought it was really good. 

And Old Guy HiFi said Harmony micro Dac beats it... take with a grain of salt as always...

@tablejockey Move the thread to digital.

He mentioned that at the beginning, so I thought he might be the person who could move it from the back end. Anyway, it was my fault for accidentally putting it in the Analog category.  

@mattw73  By now, your Pontus 15th should be sufficiently broken in. How would you assess its overall performance?  Thank you.

@sls883 During this time while I were torn among Harmony uDAC, Gustard X26 iii and DF 15th, I acquired Topping D90 iii Discrete to try and I like it.  It has very good separation, good layering, 3D palpability I am craving for.  The high notes notes are so intricated that I heard something that I never heard before.  The SS is not wider than the cheaper dac I had and that is not bad thing, because the notes are outlined and positioned much better yielding more defined sense of stage.  The bass notes are more weighty and nimble.  I actually turn off the PEQ and found the tonal balance from low ends are still kept.  I may keep it in the 2nd system.

I also tried smsl po100 pro ddc bet. the Ultra and D90 using I2s and got better result as expected.  I also tried CA Mxn10 feeding rca to D90 and the combo sounds the best to my ears.

The review from one of the trustworthy reviewers was finally released and gave uDAC very high remark.  He specifically compared the uDAC with D90 discrete and conclude they perform equally well in many technical aspects but are distinct in terms of sound color (warmth) and choice will be users’ preference dependent. (uDAC is warmer).  I may retain D90 since the violin / piano sounds more natural / accurate to my ears.  I do not wish the violin sound to be tamed down by a warmer DAC.

If the Gustard X26 iii is elected and auditioned in the near future for my 1st system, the stuffs we were talking about will follow through, i.e., DDC w/ clock in (uDDC / U18 / SU2) and the 10mhz master (Lhy ock2) plus Smsl pl200T (w/ a clock in).  I will need 3 clock in and Lhy is the only choice.  A lot of gears to be acquired for a slow thinker. 

@mattw73 The seemingly random, non-time-of-day pattern you've described is indeed puzzling. Given that your equipment has already exhibited qualities like a three-dimensional soundstage and full-bodied tonality, it's likely that the gear has undergone sufficient break-in. This leads me to consider whether the issue might be related to power supply fluctuations. Do you currently use a power conditioner?

@mattw73  I am no electric engineer (civil eng.) but looking at source for ANSI C84.1 which is the the national standard for utility voltage tolerance in North America (see below), it seems the normal range for continuous use of electrical device on user end is 110v - 126 v (+5%) and variation outside this range should be infrequent.  Sensitive electronic devices will be more vulnerable to the variations.  Not sure if this needs attention but just pass it on fyi.

https://voltage-disturbance.com/voltage-quality/voltage-tolerance-standard-ansi-c84-1/

@mattw73 That is exactly the outcome I expected. The Pontus 15th is essentially a scaled-down Venus 12th and is supposed to be top-notch, as several reviewers have raved about. The value proposition is strong—gear of that caliber would easily cost several grand if designed and manufactured here in the U.S. You certainly described the sound nicely.

Good news for you—if you're wondering where the 15th stands: A British Audiophile actually did the homework for everyone. He placed the Pontus 15th above the Gustard R26, Harmony DAC, and Holo Cyan 2, and rated it 'Outstanding'—his highest recommendation. He's one of the few 'trustworthy' reviewers I consistently follow for reliable information.  I don't believe any Topping Dac could compete with it.  The highly raved everSolo A8's internal Dac sounds flat image wise. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-BtA2XPiRU&t=532s