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Vinshine prices seem to be quite a bit higher
That was in Singapore dollars. Singapore dollars S$1349 / US$994. In terms of duty, if the U.S. tariff takes effect, Denafrips will likely be the first to react. I recall Denafrips started collecting a 20% tariff but soon removed it. It is still not being collected, but could be reinstated any time.
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@ozzy62 @mattw73 @klipscher @curiousjim @jastralfu @2psyop
Does the high output impedance of 1,250 ohms from the Denafrips DAC ever bother you in terms of impedance matching? The Harmony DAC has an identical measurement, but the µDAC brings it down to 80 ohms. I have a preamp with an input impedance rated at only 10k so I am concerned about the matching. Thx.
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@mattw73 Thank you for sharing. If your preamp has an output impedance of 50k ohms, it should not have any matching issues with the Denafrips DAC, whether using RCA (625 ohms) or XLR (1250 ohms). I was referring to my own preamp, which has only a 10k ohm output impedance and might have some issues since the ratio is less than 10. I was surprised to hear that the RCA input of the Pontus does not perform well.
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Wow, no apparent issue from 10k to 12k! Maybe I, along with many others, have been overly concerned. But here’s my experience: I used a preamp with a 5k output impedance into an amp with a 20k input impedance, and the sound felt restrained. However, this particular preamp was well received by some, if not the majority. I tend to attribute this to a matching issue.
I had been eyeing Denafrips for a long time, but its high output impedance was always a hurdle that kept me from pulling the trigger. Then the Harmony DAC had the same design—until this micro DAC came along, seemingly designed to address matching concerns. I don’t know. I guess I’ll never know until I try, right?
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@mattw73 According to Wave Theory, the new Denafrips 15th leans toward the bright side of neutral, in contrast to the warmer sound signature of the original Pontus or Pontus II. The treble resolution is enhanced, but it lacks the rich mids and powerful low-end slam of the Schiit BF II. When streaming high-resolution OS files, its sound quality might be on par with the Laiv DAC. However, when the Laiv DAC streams high-resolution OS files, the gap becomes more apparent. In short, system pairing—including the amplifier and/or preamp—is critical. If your system is already bright, the Denafrips 15th might not be the best fit.
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@mattw73 It might not have the most punchy slam but the bass is accurate. It’s tight, detailed, & nuanced. It’s kind of weird, it doesn’t sound like it’s super deep or expressive but I can hear/feel it in the walls behind the couch..different from my prior dac. The 15th also puts the vocalists in it’s natural position where my other dac put it a little out front of the speakers no matter the track.
Using my Ultravalve or SET amp I do get more "meat on the bones" & some extended spatial cues. Maybe a hint more than my sabre dac. I certainly don’t feel like it’s pulling out any more information or more resolving than a sabre dac. But I can detect the slight smoothness or lack of hardness on the top end in comparison. That is probably the biggest difference. But then I feel you are losing some of the clean edges of the notes in space & perception. There is more depth to the soundstage but without those etched lines separating everything. There is separation..but not as pinpoint focused.
Thank you for pointing out those details; in particular, the depth of soundstage I’m craving from an upgraded DAC—separation, cleanly outlined edges, pinpoint focus, and articulated bass, etc. Which Sabre DAC were you comparing it to?
I don’t think you’re being overly critical. I believe $2-3K is the price point where diminishing returns set in for a DAC. I compared the Gustard R26, a highly praised R2R DAC, with a lower-priced Sabre DAC from SMSL in a fairly extensive audition after a 150-hour break-in period for the R26. On my humble system, I couldn’t meaningfully detect a sonic difference between them. However, I did notice differences among the seven DACs I’ve tested so far, which ranged in price from $200 to $500.
For now, I’ll probably put the idea of purchasing the 15th on hold. I’m afraid the sonic performance you described might be the ceiling for all R2R DACs in the $1,500–$2,000 range.
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Thank you for the impression on Pontus II. The refund policy by Harmony is a flat fee of $100 based on my understanding.
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@mattw73 Thank you for the update. Approximately how many hours of break-in did it take before you noticed the change? That’s good news. How about the separation within the soundstage—do the edges become more clearly defined as the 'veil' is lifted? I mostly listen to classical and Jazz. Thx.
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@mattw73 Still not vinyl with my digital source. Sounds like a regular good dac but with better stage & depth & imaging. Does not sound overly warm like R2R’s had been described to me. As far as just the clarity & things of that nature I probably couldn’t tell it apart from a chip dac. It’s all those other perceptions & lack of glare/hardness that makes it different from what I was using.
Thank you for your honesty. Many people exaggerate their experiences to justify the cost of pricier gear. These days, as you know, it’s actually quite hard to find a bad or even mediocre DAC at any price point. I mentioned before that I couldn’t tell the difference between a very affordable SMSL DAC and the much-hyped Gustard R26 on my humble system — and yet both it and my ears have been capable of revealing flaws in, and retiring, several mid-tier DACs I’ve owned over the past few years.
One more review just came out yesterday on the Harmony micro DAC. The reviewer highly praises it over several other candidates on my shortlist, including the Chord Qutest, Denafrips Pontus 12th, Topping D90 (or was it the Centaurus?), and others. He also mentions that adding the matching micro DDC takes the experience to another level up with Harmony DAC. Very interesting. I say that because the Chief Engineer and designer of Harmony DDC mentioned that it makes only a subtle difference. These days, it's hard to know what to believe or what to expect anymore.
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The return cost for the Harmony is $100, assuming no additional tariffs are involved. But that's not the main reason for my hesitation. I'm not that desperate—my system already sounds better than just okay. Patience will pay off. One of my most trusted reviewers is set to post his review any time now.
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I have a couple of streamers, including CA, Wiim, and iFi. Recently, I bought an SMSL PO100 Pro (DDC) to use with the Wiim Ultra, and the improvement is noticeable—though I wouldn’t say it’s significant. it doesn’t improve though a bit when used with the iFi, which already has galvanic isolation built in.
I know you’re quite content with the X30. Are you using I²S to get its full potential? That’s next on my to-do list.
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It would be useful information to know. However, you wouldn’t be able to tell whether any difference comes from the DDC, the I²S connection, or the combination of both. I recall there were some ‘serious’ discussions on this topic a while ago. The topic gets even more convoluted once you bring the 'clock' into the picture.
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Yes, price does not play the music. And I concur with what you have just said. That’s why I showcased the internals of this micro DAC from the start, including 0.05% precision/tolerance resistor packs, galvanic isolation (between analog and digital), a femto clock, and a discrete Class A output stage that provides low output impedance for better matching.
One way they managed to fit all those quality components into such a small chassis was by placing the power supply externally. In contrast, several bulky and heavy DACs, like the Denafrips Pontus, have multiple transformers built in and shielded internally. There are pros and cons of doing either way...
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@mikhailark Don’t worry. The disagreement originates from misunderstanding. The factory PS for micro DAC is indeed SMPS, a good low noise one. However, the micro DAC takes 15V 2A and you could throw in 15V, min. 30VA LPS to power it. A good LPS with low ripple noise at both empty and full loads ranges from $120 (like LHY) to a few hundreds. Soundnews actually tests both options and find the factory SMPS is ’good enough’.
One other space-saving aspect of the micro DAC is that it only comes with XLR output. Also, according to a reliable source, the dual beefy transformers in the Denafrips Pontus account for roughly 24%–32% of its total weight. After subtracting those, along with associated components and the chassis weight that would no longer be needed with an external power supply, I’m afraid what remains might be roughly equivalent to the Harmony DAC.
The small form factor offers necessary space savings for some users, and as long as it doesn’t compromise quality, I’m more than willing to accept it. However, to claim that the physical size of a device directly impacts its sonic quality — I just haven’t seen any evidence to support that. So for now, I’ll sit tight and wait for the next reliable review I’ve been looking forward to.
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Thank you for the feedback, @sls883. Have you also used 10Mhz clock into U18?
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It makes sense. My understanding is that, in the chain
Innuos (usb) -> U18 (i2s) -> X30 that you have,
U18 is doing the re-clocking of usb signal. If using external master clock in U18, it will help clean the output from U18 going into X30. The cleaner the output from the upstream DDC, the better (less jitter and phase noise) the signal will go into DAC. So in this case it is better off to use master clock in U18.
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Also, @sls883, does your external clock have multiple outputs, like the LHY OCK-2? If it does, try sending the square wave signal to both the U18 and X30 and see what kind of difference it makes.
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@sls883
That’s fantastic. I believe Gustard gear works with either waveform, but according to their website, a sine wave connection is actually recommended—and the chart reflects that. You might want to try and compare both.
The 50-ohm impedance matches, right?
This suggests that the LHY 10MHz master OCXO is quite good, elevating the performance of already state-of-the-art gear. I’m tempted!
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Alvin made an personal announcement earlier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wy5-Jw1phY
Basically, what he’s saying is that May 2nd will be the start date for the incoming tariffs, and he urges people to act by April 20th to ensure they have enough time to process and ship their products before the deadline. I assume he was speaking only on behalf of Vinshine, not manufacturers in general.
There was a question to Alvin—would we need to handle any potential import duties at customs ourselves, or will Vinshine take care of that for the buyers once we’ve paid the asking price? He didn’t address this in his earlier announcement.
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I listened to their Dayzee at the last Florida audio show & thought it was really good.
And Old Guy HiFi said Harmony micro Dac beats it... take with a grain of salt as always...
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@tablejockey Move the thread to digital.
He mentioned that at the beginning, so I thought he might be the person who could move it from the back end. Anyway, it was my fault for accidentally putting it in the Analog category.
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@mattw73 By now, your Pontus 15th should be sufficiently broken in. How would you assess its overall performance? Thank you.
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@sls883 During this time while I were torn among Harmony uDAC, Gustard X26 iii and DF 15th, I acquired Topping D90 iii Discrete to try and I like it. It has very good separation, good layering, 3D palpability I am craving for. The high notes notes are so intricated that I heard something that I never heard before. The SS is not wider than the cheaper dac I had and that is not bad thing, because the notes are outlined and positioned much better yielding more defined sense of stage. The bass notes are more weighty and nimble. I actually turn off the PEQ and found the tonal balance from low ends are still kept. I may keep it in the 2nd system.
I also tried smsl po100 pro ddc bet. the Ultra and D90 using I2s and got better result as expected. I also tried CA Mxn10 feeding rca to D90 and the combo sounds the best to my ears.
The review from one of the trustworthy reviewers was finally released and gave uDAC very high remark. He specifically compared the uDAC with D90 discrete and conclude they perform equally well in many technical aspects but are distinct in terms of sound color (warmth) and choice will be users’ preference dependent. (uDAC is warmer). I may retain D90 since the violin / piano sounds more natural / accurate to my ears. I do not wish the violin sound to be tamed down by a warmer DAC.
If the Gustard X26 iii is elected and auditioned in the near future for my 1st system, the stuffs we were talking about will follow through, i.e., DDC w/ clock in (uDDC / U18 / SU2) and the 10mhz master (Lhy ock2) plus Smsl pl200T (w/ a clock in). I will need 3 clock in and Lhy is the only choice. A lot of gears to be acquired for a slow thinker.
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@mattw73 The seemingly random, non-time-of-day pattern you've described is indeed puzzling. Given that your equipment has already exhibited qualities like a three-dimensional soundstage and full-bodied tonality, it's likely that the gear has undergone sufficient break-in. This leads me to consider whether the issue might be related to power supply fluctuations. Do you currently use a power conditioner?
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@mattw73 I am no electric engineer (civil eng.) but looking at source for ANSI C84.1 which is the the national standard for utility voltage tolerance in North America (see below), it seems the normal range for continuous use of electrical device on user end is 110v - 126 v (+5%) and variation outside this range should be infrequent. Sensitive electronic devices will be more vulnerable to the variations. Not sure if this needs attention but just pass it on fyi.
https://voltage-disturbance.com/voltage-quality/voltage-tolerance-standard-ansi-c84-1/
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@mattw73 That is exactly the outcome I expected. The Pontus 15th is essentially a scaled-down Venus 12th and is supposed to be top-notch, as several reviewers have raved about. The value proposition is strong—gear of that caliber would easily cost several grand if designed and manufactured here in the U.S. You certainly described the sound nicely.
Good news for you—if you're wondering where the 15th stands: A British Audiophile actually did the homework for everyone. He placed the Pontus 15th above the Gustard R26, Harmony DAC, and Holo Cyan 2, and rated it 'Outstanding'—his highest recommendation. He's one of the few 'trustworthy' reviewers I consistently follow for reliable information. I don't believe any Topping Dac could compete with it. The highly raved everSolo A8's internal Dac sounds flat image wise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-BtA2XPiRU&t=532s
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@ozzy62 I guess none of the Audiogoners here are able to address this good question, but Tarun, A British Audiophile, is one of the reviewers who closely traces the evolution of the Pontus and Venus DACs and could possibly offer some insights (see his first three videos). WaveTheory also provides some useful comparisons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-BtA2XPiRU&t=805s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA9GD7arBlw&t=173s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zw4l69HCA0&t=605s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PBnl5Jqwi4
@sls883 @mattw73
I finally pulled the trigger on the µDAC. Right out of the box, it sounds pretty good. According to Harmony, the unit underwent a 100-hour powered-on test at the factory. Soundstage is quite expansive—wider and taller (actually taller than any DAC I’ve heard, including the R26)—compared to the D90. Depth and layering are similar between the two.
The biggest contrast between these DACs is that the D90 offers pinpoint focus and finely outlined edges, leaving more distinctive space between instruments. In contrast, the µDAC, like other R2R DACs, has softer edges and a sound that fills in the space more naturally. When listened to in isolation, both DACs offer well-defined instrument separation.
Secondly, the µDAC’s midrange is richer and more seductive than that of the D90. Thirdly, I hear more micro-detail from the D90. Lastly, the µDAC has more bass presence, though it’s relatively softer and bolder, whereas the D90’s bass is more controlled and articulate.
Both DACs are in the same league—just as iiWi has noted in his review—but they present music differently. I like both. However, for classical music, I prefer the D90 slightly, primarily because it outlines notes better and offers greater instrument clarity and precise imaging.
Harmony also mentioned that many customers report further sonic improvement after about 200 hours of actual use. I suppose time will tell the µDAC’s ultimate capabilities. For now, I still notice a bit of harshness in poorly recorded tracks and hope it will smooth out over time.
One thing that is sort of negative but completely normal is that the µDAC runs warmer than most DAC, sespecially chip-based ones, due to its discrete R-2R architecture and fully Class A analog output stage. I think the warmth is also attributable to its compact size and lack of heat sink. According to Harmony, as long as it’s touchable and has space for ventilation, it’s well within safe operating limits and there’s no cause for concern. Nevertheless, I am just concerned about the heat that will dry out the cap. more quickly over time.
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@sls883
The plan for the clock will depend on whether I purchase the Gustard. At this point, I'm leaning toward the X30. The X26 III is only marginally better than the D90 III Discrete, which I've kept for my second system. The µDAC is still under evaluation while it is breaking in, but the more I listen, the more its muddier mid-to-low registers become less appealing. While the µDAC does have a rich midrange, I keep returning to the D90’s clean presentation. Also, I’m becoming less tolerant of the heat it generates.
X30 does not have that mid-low registers congestion I was referring above, I believe.
I’ve been watching the X30 for a while, but the price hasn’t dropped during the last two major holidays. I’ll probably wait until the end of this year to make a decision.
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@sls883 Is it the R30? I believe the prototype has been demoed at some shows. If it's what I think it is, this would be the R2R version of the X30, replicating its features—such as the OCXO clock, relay-based R2R volume control, built-in linear power supply (LPS), and other great features usually only found in high-end products from brands like Denafrips' Terminator. If that’s the case, that’s fantastic—it might even help or promote the X30's price a bit for those looking to jump in. I've never seen such consistently high marks (95 and above out of 100) across all sonic performance categories, including noise floor, resolution, dynamics, frequency response, and soundstage. It was even rated 'Outstanding' by Tarun.
@mattw73 I’ll continue marching on and patiently wait for the potential transformation of the µDAC. It’s received a lot of positive buzz from trustworthy reviewers, and I hope their assessments prove to be reliable. I’m even willing to invest in a linear power supply or a better DDC for it, to see where it leads me.
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@sls883 @mattw73
So far, I’ve accumulated 60 hours of listening and 40 hours of power-on time (operating at 104°F), in addition to the 100 hours of factory burn-in. Similar to my previous experience with the Gustard R26, I conducted a group, non-blind listening test comparing the CA MXN10’s internal DAC, the Topping D90 III Discrete, and the Harmony µDAC. All units were connected directly to my Cambridge Audio integrated amplifier, the Azur 851A.
The MXN10, highly praised by Stereophile and rated Class A, was used here as a benchmark. While the MXN10 is capable of audiophile-grade sound, its soundstage is rather flat.
For some music tracks, I switched among the devices every 30 seconds to leverage human short-term (active) memory. For genres like classical music, I listened to entire pieces and took notes throughout. The results were quite straightforward:
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Between the µDAC and the MXN10, I heard more similarities than differences. There wasn’t much layering in the soundscape.
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The D90 III Discrete consistently preserved soundstage layering—when present in the recording.
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Other traits aligned with what I previously described.
It’s important to note that my inability to hear soundstage layering from the µDAC doesn’t mean other reviewers are wrong. Perhaps the µDAC is capable, just not in my setup. The D90 Discrete, on the other hand, renders layering convincingly, making me the happiest audiophile in the world - while also making me wonder, “What the heck, why can’t the µDAC do this?” I had the same expectations—and the same disappointment - with the R26 before.
It is time to let go of another piece of gear and move on. I’m not sure if a flat fee of $125 spent on this adventure was worthwhile, but at least I had fun.
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@sls883 @mattw73 I guess the problems lies in the pickiness I have imposed on the gears and different expectation of the term 'layering.' In my book the term 'layering' includes the followings: 1) Depth - front-to-back placement of sounds; e.g., vocals close, drums farther back; 2) Height - perceived vertical location, e.g., cymbal/voice sounding higher than bass; 3) Width left / right placement across the soundstage; and 4) Separation - clarity and space between each instrument or sound source.
I could hear the distinct front-to-back sound level differences of instruments through the µDAC—e.g., on tracks from Modern Cool by Patricia Barber. Nevertheless, the edges of notes aren’t as well defined as with the D90, which results in a diminished perception of depth when compared side by side. The µDAC’s presentation tends to be fuzzier and coarser around the edges, filling the space between instruments and masking the sense of separation.
I went back to some reviews and noticed that most of them described instrument separation and layering as distintive qualities and hence separate aspects.
I guess I just prefer the D90 Discrete’s presentation much more.
Just found a Gustard X26 III in 'very good' condition at a discounted price and fully refundable. This time, I’m taking a safer approach to auditioning. Like you said, paying over $100 in return penalties is questionably worthwhile.
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@sls883 I recall you had the U18 DDC, and may I ask you a question? I ordered a used one and hooked it up with the µDAC. The I²S settings on the µDAC were set to be identical with the “Gustard” (1st) mode on U18, but I’m getting static noise. Did you ever encounter something like that? Thanks!
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@sls883 I use AQ hdmi cable and do not run into issue with po100 pro ddc.
@larsman It is too late to change it, isn't it!
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@sls883 @larsman The issue is gone—I really had no clue what happened. I switched to other outputs/inputs (coax, TOSLINK), and it worked fine. Then, when I cycled back to I²S, the issue disappeared.
Overall, the image seems focused a bit over Smsl ddc. The very affordable smsl seems able to reach 85-90% of the U18. Not bad at all as several reviewers / users pointed out. The U18 has much substantial weight due to the toroidal transformer though for its low-noise power supply. A compelling price proposition at $399.
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@sls883 @mattw73
I guess I was mistaken about the µDAC. I kept playing it—with only a few short breaks over the past days—and have now accumulated another 50–60 hours of music playback. At this point, it probably has around 110–120 hours of music playing time and about 140 hours powered on. The layering has finally come through, and the congestion in the low-midrange and upper bass is gone.
Coupled with a wider soundstage (compared to the D90), my listening experience now surpasses what I had with the D90 and has never been this satisfying. The D90 still delineates notes more precisely, but the more homogeneous sound field produced by the µDAC makes the overall presentation feel more natural. And that rich, slightly more forward midrange is simply second to none.
Thanks to both of you for walking me through this. That said, I hate to admit it—this means I now have to keep another DAC… while the third one (Gustard X26 III) is still on its way.
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