Just about to pull the trigger on Pontus 15th ...

@lanx0003 I just wanted to add to this thread about my personal experience with the 15th. The dac did indeed clear up its sound for me Still not bright or fatiguing in any way but a level of clarity opened up. Like that old saying..a veil had been lifted. Which helps & improved the overall sound stage. 

I ordered the Pontus 15th from Denafrips HQ in February with beliefs that the unit would ship at end of February. I also asked them for a 5% discount for basically paying for a pre-order. Savings of $100 so I ordered the Remote. Unit still hasn't shipped. 

I emailed the other day complaining of the extended delay of shipping & increasing tariff prices/tax. They of course apologized & mentioned that they would not be asking me for any additional funds for shipping to the US. I'm not sure if the shipping company will be sending me an extra "tariffs bill". 

I pondered between the Pontus & original Laiv dac for quite awhile. I came to the conclusion that without the ability to hear either of them up front I should just go with the cheaper of the two. The reviews & demand of the 15th are good enough that I felt I could resell the Pontus without much loss if it doesn't work out for me. In the end though both dacs & including the smaller Laiv are probably all very good for the money. Probably all an easy resell as well. 

I received an email that the Pontus 15th is on its way 2 days ago. Denafrips HQ did not ask me for any extra shipping fees. FED-X International sent me a tracking number..no mention of additional fees. I don't know if I will receive some type of tariffs bill or if Denafrips ate the any additional charges. 

The Pontus will be replacing a RME dac in my living room. But I'll be replacing other components in this room with better equipment I've had set up in a spare bedroom..the turntable room I have abandoned since finding digital streaming too convenient to ignore. I've had various dacs since the 90's & really enjoyed the RME. The PEQ functions have been invaluable in my wonky shaped living room. Between a UMIK & REW software I've been able to get the best out of most speakers using the RME Dac's bonus functions. The speakers I'll have in my living room now don't need the EQ functions of the RME. A great dac but lacks the space & depth as some other more "analog" sounding dacs I've had in the past. The RME is transparent & has some great qualities..so I'm interested to see how differently I perceive the Denafrips. 

@lanx0003 I wasn't aware of the Denafrips output Z but that is indeed pretty high for a dac, source, of even most modern tube preamps. 

I only received the unit a couple days ago on Monday..which was quick considering I received an email it was being shipped from China at midnight on Thursday. But since I've been concentrating on "breaking in" the Pontus I haven't given it the rounds on multiple preamps I own. I initially plugged the Pontus into this old Assemblage L1 one tube preamp that's been upgraded to the gills with high end parts & bypass caps thru in thru. I just had to mention this unknown preamp because I find it stupid good & it makes me question some more expensive pre's I have. But anyway, I haven't a clue of any of its specs. I only used it for maybe an hour & didn't notice any frequency, noise, or other issues I've encountered with impedance mismatches in the past. 

I've been running the Pontus with an Icon Audio LA4 MKiii Sig tube pre ever since; as I was thinking this is the preamp I'll be trying to pair long term. The LA4's input Z is spec'ed at "Greater than 50k ohms".  I've been inside this preamp but didn't take notice to what's going on after the input jacks or volume pot reading. I haven't detected any issues of mismatch but I've been focusing on other things when listening to the 15th. I also have only used the single ended outputs on the Pontus. 

I honestly don't think I've ever experienced a mismatch between a source or dac & preamp before. I've definitely encountered it between preamps & amps in the past. I've actually seen a YouTube reviewer & a commentor somewhere else complain that the Pontus was kinda bright...lacking some bass. Makes me wonder if they were maybe having mismatch issues? 

I do have some other issues with this dac I can complain about & share. First off the unit has 3 feet..which are kinda rough & definitely able to scratch things due to this Dac's hefty weight. She is solid. The dac comes with these little rubber pads to push into the bottom of the feet. My pads don't stay in..2 of them fall out whenever I lift the dac to move it. Not an issue when it gets to its final resting place. But I guarantee they will fall off & get lost at some point..pretty crappy for a $2k device. 

This next issue is a little bigger & one I haven't gone to the next step to fix. The RCA outputs on the rear. None of my regular sized RCA cables will push all the way in for a proper fit. It just won't push in all the way like something is blocking it..the grounding clasps of the connectors is only getting maybe a quarter way on. I found some Blue Jeans connects I had from back in the day. Ones I never really liked as the have the long connectors/longer cinch with a shorter pin. So the rca connectors on their Pontus are not going to work for me. I'm going to have to address this with Frips people. Another pain in the ass & unacceptable for a $2k device. I've only experienced this RCA jack issue once before..with a Chinese manufactured brand. I had to replace the jacks..the plastic inside the jacks weren't evenly bored out. Lame. 

My 3rd issue is a sound quality one..though this is with the rca coaxial input. Now I use a Neotech NEVD-2001 cable. Not overly expensive but I'll just say that after experimenting with digital cables cheaper & more expensive I highly recommend this Neotech model. It's proper good. You can buy the cable itself from a couple different sellers but the Neotech manufactured cable comes with some impressive connectors. I wish I could find them for DIY cables. 

Also I've only used the Pontus with a streamer & it's coaxial input. I've tried probably 12 different streamers over the last couple years under the $1600 mark..looking for a budget standout. The Zen Stream & Primare Prisma NP5 are the 2 I've held onto. I've only used the Zen Stream with the Pontus. I have 3 12v power supplies..an Sbooster, IFI Elite, Super Farad 3. Farad sounds the best with the Zen but I use it elsewhere now so I've settled with the IFI PS with the ZEN. 

Granted this dac hasn't broken in. But with coaxial input I'm not impressed. Veiled & dark. Some decent depth & stage but overall sound is meh. I chalked it up to break in period. But this morning I figured I would tried a USB cable. Completely different dac. The blanket was lifted. Everything from top to bottom, inside & out is better. Clarity & high frequencies. Dac at least is showing some good promise. Now I've never had issues using the coaxial on the Zen Stream in the past & honestly it's my output of choice on it. But I will try the Prisma later. I think it sounds better anyway but I also know that the coaxial output on the Prisma is a little hotter. I've had to dial back the input on it with my pro audio dac. So maybe the Denafrips just needs more juice going into it's coaxial. But so far the coaxial & USB input seems like 2 different dacs. 

The USB allows the dac to use its superior clocks if I understand things correctly. But I don't recall the Zen ever sounding that bad with other dacs & coaxial connection. It could be this "break in" that I've been warned of..& that I shouldn't even critically comment on this dac til at least a couple weeks of heavy usage. USB sounds good. But I'll comment more in a couple weeks if interested. I need to see about these RCA jacks. I'll take a closer look at it when I get a chance..pop the top on this joker & see what's doin'. If I keep this thing long term I'll probably invest in a streamer with i2S output instead of a DDC. I'll have to see how this plays out. 

@lanx0003 yeah I understood your question & concerns but I ended up babbling on about my situation. My experience with impedance matching has only been with preamps & amps as far as close calls & definite issues from mismatches. I have a 10k input & a 12k input amps. I've been as close as an 8x's difference between the 2 & didn't notice any meaningful issues. I've had preamps in that 5k range & probably higher depending on frequency where noise & brightness occurs. Stuff like my old PAS preamps caused issues with all my modern day solid state amp. 

I've run my MTK kit preamp which can be as High as 1800ohms sound quite nice with my 10k amp. Not exactly the same situation between dac & preamp though. Maybe someone else will chime in with something similar to your exact question. 

Yeah my 2 lowest impedance amps are an Arcam PA240 at 10k & a Rotel RB-1582mkii at 12k..this is their single ended inputs. Not an issue with solid state but I favor tube preamps. When I bought the Arcam I was unaware of its input. I had a Arcam SA30 & liked the amplification of it so much when I saw a deal on the PA240 I grabbed it. At the time it was an issue for my favorite preamps & I regretted buying it. It was very disheartening. 

With preamps you can compensate a little by upping the value on the output caps which most tube preamps have. But when the match is really bad it's like you said..less drive/gain. I'd have rolled off bass & hot treble. If the match was really bad it will add noise into the system. Also a lot of times what the manufacturer specs isn't always legit. It could be a 1k output at 1khz with the volume full blast..with the impedance actually being much higher at other frequency's & volume levels. 

My kit amp that is 1600ohms at its highest & that I said paired well with the 10k Arcam was actually rated at 800ohms by the designer..which he measured at 1 frequency. 

In your situation without knowing for sure how the Pontus would match I would probably try something like the micro first. Then if maybe you don't care for the micro you could go for the 15th. Personally I'd like to hear your thoughts & opinions on the Harmony model. I'm going to give the Pontus a lot more time but I'm not really impressed with it thus far. I've been strictly using my Icon preamp & Fritz REV7 SE speakers but switching amps every couple days. I work from home & listen to music 6 or 7 hours a day..with at least an hour of it sitting between the speakers. I listen to a lot of music. When I'm not playing music I have the TV going thru the dac. It still hasn't even been a week though so I'll pump the breaks on criticizing it more than I already have. 

I think that Harmony uDac looks pretty cool. I like that one has the choice to use their own power supply. The guys at Vinshine think it's a great value piece..which is usually the stuff I'm always interested in. It's getting good reviews but then all these R2R's seem to get that..but this unit is under $1k before tax. No impedance issues either. 

@lanx0003 I think I saw that review...headphone guy? 

My experiences have no issues or noticed any brightness. First few days some dullness & maybe some hardness on top but never bright or fatiguing. With my Bel Canto pre & Hypex Nilai amp I feel like I can get a feel for whatever the source or dac has to offer. There is no added thickness to the notes from the 15th..which maybe someone might construe as "lean" but I think it's just relaying what the streamer/source is giving it. 

I played around with it quite a bit this weekend. It might not have the most punchy slam but the bass is accurate. It's tight, detailed, & nuanced. It's kind of weird, it doesn't sound like it's super deep or expressive but I can hear/feel it in the walls behind the couch..different from my prior dac. The 15th also puts the vocalists in it's natural position where my other dac put it a little out front of the speakers no matter the track. 

Using my Ultravalve or SET amp I do get more "meat on the bones" & some extended spatial cues. Maybe a hint more than my sabre dac. I certainly don't feel like it's pulling out any more information or more resolving than a sabre dac. But I can detect the slight smoothness or lack of hardness on the top end in comparison. That is probably the biggest difference. But then I feel you are losing some of the clean edges of the notes in space & perception. There is more depth to the soundstage but without those etched lines separating everything. There is separation..but not as pinpoint focused. 

My wife & daughter went prom dress shopping this weekend. A buddy of mine that owns the regular pontus  came over for the day & brought his Sopra N1 bookshelves. He does feel that there is a level of clarity to the 15th that the original doesn't have. Neither of us mentioned anything of brightness with the 15th & the  Focal's..though his tweeters have more extension & sparkle than my Scan-Speaks. His also produce some serious bass & were too close to the front wall on my set up. He was very impressed with the vocals on my Fritz & was amazed with the Class D Nilai amp..I let him take it home. He thinks if I give the 15th more time it will shift into better focus. He said after a couple weeks his original Pontus just fell into place. He says I'm over critical & if I want better I'm going to have to spend more & to get some bass treatment behind the speakers. 

So yeah, I'm probably a bit over critical..but I already know that when I bring something new or different into the house. The 15th is a good dac..but when these "reviewers" build it up like it's the best thing in its price class I'm going to be honest with myself if I feel it doesn't do all things better than something cheaper. But I have to remember that everything in audio equipment is usually a compromise. A mixture of something great & something ok. There is definitely not that hint of glare or hardness with the R2R that I've experienced with chip dacs. That alone should be worth the price of admission..but I can't help picking something apart when I'm evaluating. But once I decide on something I have the ability to enjoy it for what it's worth. At the end of the day I  love music. I can appreciate a pair of cheap earbuds when I just want to hear some tunes. 

@lanx0003 I was using the sabre model of the RME ADI-2 FS. I have no experience of a modern R2R dac. I have used a SMSL in the past & thought it was great..the SU-10. Comparable to the RME, probably a little more expansive soundstage. I ended up going with the RME because of it's PEQ function. I went with the 15th for the main reasons of trying to find a deeper soundstage & lessen the slight digital glare/hardness from some female vocal tracks. 

The Pontus does improve upon those 2 things. I chatted with a gentleman last night about the 15th. He said he received his about 2 weeks before I did. He seems quite certain that because we were waiting awhile for our units that they were shipped without the normal 200 hours break in. He said he had not had any reason to believe electrical components needed that type of break in from past experience but that his unit improved dramatically over the 3 weeks of using it & not turning it off for a couple weeks.  Told me to be patient..he was not impressed right out of the box & shared some subjective thoughts about it that aligned with mine..though I had not gone into detail about my impressions other than I wasn't impressed with it & that it lacked some focus. 

I will report that using the RCA input on the 15th last weekend I felt it was on par with the USB input. We fiddled with the RCA outputs & were able to get any RCA cable firmly pushed all the way in. That was a relief. 

That Harmony mini dac could be the good value unit. Alvin seems to be standing behind it. I'm at least convinced that R2R can expand the stage in a different way & reduce that digital hardness/glare. If the mini can accomplish that & keep the clarity & detail it's probably a solid winner for the price. I'd like to try one to at least get a better idea of what these R2R's are about. I'd like to have some experience with a few different models to get a good feel for them & if they really differ from good chip dacs. 

@lanx0003 about 160-170 hours in when I was watching/listening to TV thru the dac when voices & conversation just become clear & crisp. Watching a movie & a phone rang off screen in another room & the ringing came from wide outside my left speaker & more 3 dimensional than anytime before with this dac. It wasn't I think things became clearer but a definite noticeable moment. 

I had emailed Denafrips to maybe suggest something was wrong with my unit. They didn't really respond to that but just mentioned that they "break in" the dac for 200 hours & usually after 100 hours on our end the dac should be good. I had been running the dac 8 days but it had been shut off a few times here & there. Maybe closer to 180hrs on my end. 

It just finally opened up to a clarity of sound that I'm used to. Like any decent dac should sound in that department. And yes, with the clarity came the more defined edges..less smearing of instruments. With busier music or multiple instruments playing there is better separation when comparing to my previous dac. Easier to discern when a drummer is going higher & lower on a drum kit..the spacing between the drums is more defined (Money-Pink Floyd) Or visualizing fingers going up & down a harp is more focused (Comme un Tango-Belanger & Bisson)

I really haven't been able to do hours of critical listening as we haven't been home since early Friday. The little time I've had with it since it opened up I realize I need to reposition my speakers. Having a TV between the speakers & not being able to pull the speakers way out into the room I really am missing a lot of the spatial cues the DAC has to offer. Pulling the speakers further out for a couple tracks really showed off what the dac is capable of as far as placement & depth of instruments. In a more open or dedicated listening room I could more appreciate the nuances of this dac.

Listening for a short period last Friday made it very apparent my living room is not set up for the finest side of audio listening. I have a spare room I used to listen to vinyl in, I may need to reconsider using that room again. Or at least stop spending money in my living room. I can only get so much out of this listening space..no better quality of gear can improve it. 

I went off sideways again from the question you asked. The "new" clarity did improve all things. The edges & separation are all there. Without that hardness or glare I've spoken of. Still not vinyl with my digital source. Sounds like a regular good dac but with better stage & depth & imaging. Does not sound overly warm like R2R's had been described to me. As far as just the clarity & things of that nature I probably couldn't tell it apart from a chip dac. It's all those other perceptions & lack of glare/hardness that makes it different from what I was using. Which if you know your system well you would probably be able to pick the R2R out in comparisons with your set up.  My opinion anyway. 

@halfastro can I ask you which dac you were using prior to owning your Ares 15th? 

I'm always curious what kind of differences you perceived..or what you like better with your Ares? 

@halfastro right on. I'm familiar with the very early AKM J2. I felt it was a smidge "warmish" itself when I compared it to my sabre dacs. Not something I picked up on until I really compared them. For the money a good dac. I listened to their Dayzee at the last Florida audio show & thought it was really good. 

@lanx0003 I wouldn't say I was blown away by the Dayzee but from my listening experiences it's good. Not a lot of micro detail popping out..music sounded good though. If I could do it all over again I would go with the Micro Laiv..& saved a good deal of cash to boot. 

@lanx0003 believe it or not my unit still suffers from being inconsistent with its performance. I feel like it has really smoothed out though. It's the weight & texture of notes that still varies a little bit from day to day. It hasn't been a full 2 months yet but it does have some hours on it. Once I started putting it in stand-by at night I felt like improvements really started happening. 

I don't know why my 15th has taken so long to get to the quality it is at now..but it's come a long way. I thought it was pretty awful for awhile. It really has a nice clarity, texture, reverb, & weight to the notes lately. When the dac is hitting on all cylinders it's very 3 dimensional, just very good. But for whatever reason some days I'll kick it on & that extra weight to male voices & notes is a little flat. Few hours later & you will feel that fullness again. For awhile it could go days before that extra warmth would return. So I feel like it's all coming together..at its own pace lol. 

But like I said, when it's sounding good, & you play a good hi-res recording you are treated to a very nice performance between & beyond the speakers. This dac has been one of the most rollercoaster experiences I've ever had with a piece of hifi equipment. 

@lanx0003 I think that you bringing up power supply fluctuations was a great thought. This is exactly what I have been thinking about the last couple weeks. Honestly I just didn't go into it as I didn't know what others may think. I was also wondering if this is an issue with the internal power supply of the dac? 

When the dac seems to be hitting on all cylinders like I described, the output of the dac seems to be stronger. More volume though the volume knob hasn't been touched. Like the output voltage is fluctuating from day to day. 

I do not use a conditioner on my main pieces (Dac, Pre, Amp, Sub) Those are basically running off the wall outlet thru a basic Furman box. All of my sources & anything with a Switch Mode PS runs thru one of those $500 dollar Panamax jobbies. My wall output voltage has been running high as I've been keeping an eye on it & testing it. As high as 128v but mostly between 121v-126v. I have been looking at different conditioners & voltage regulators lately. 

I'm not sure what to think. But I do strongly feel like when the Dac sounds it's best the signal is stronger or louder to the preamp. It has left me wondering if this is a Dac issue or the power that is feeding the dac. I don't have experience in this domain. 

@lanx0003 right on & thanks for sharing the link. 

I will say that for the last 5 or 6 days I have not heard any inconsistencies. When I play the 1st track I know right off the bat if it's sounding "Right". 

As you know I have been critical of the unit since day one. The last few days I have been impressed by this dac from top to bottom in sound. Listening to good quality instrumental tracks has wowed me at times. This dac has allowed my preamps to really show off their different sound qualities as well. 

Nothing sharp or fatiguing in the high end, no grain or that glare/ringing I could get at times from my chip dac. Very smooth & so detailed. The bite is still there on tracks that have it but it doesn't bite the ears. When the bow crosses over a violin you can hear more clearly all the different frequency's coming from that one stroke of the bow. You are getting all the information from the original signal. 

Which makes me think of something. With say a Sabre dac that we know objectively is as transparent as it gets. Inaudible noise floor..dynamic range as high as 22bits. Whatever the source is giving it that DAC is passing it along. But when I listen to the 15th it seems apparent I am getting a clearer window to micro details. It's hard for me to describe sound so I'll just say a more realistic or in the room sound & tone from quality tracks with the Pontus. If a sabre chip is as transparent as it gets, why does the Pontus have more information or the ability to highlight more information from the original signal? 

Anyway, the bass & midrange is the same way with this dac. I think the bass is fantastic. Again it's like the DAC is passing more information from the signal. Highlighting every strum & kick, no smearing of frequencies. Which happens a lot with bass depending on the system. The 15th is giving you every tone clearly defined & separated, even if the track is the type to jumble it all together in a fast pace. Your ears can clearly pick out the frequency change. Instruments or vocals don't get congested together. Everything is spaced out accordingly. 

It's a good dac. The better your system the better this will sound. That might seem like a common thing to say but I think this 15th will scale very well with pricier pieces. It allowed me to hear & perceive things from my preamps that I didn't know they had in them..& I'm not in the high end pool waters. The dac isn't overly warm but it has just enough richness & weight that anyone could clearly pick out vs my sabre dac..but it's not a richness & weight that will steal your attention from the music. More naturalness or realism vs the chip dac. 

It's kinda weird. Because in a way the differences are just subtle vs the chip dac. But subtly different in every aspect puts it in a different league & clearly better to my ears & with visual perceptions. 

So after being extremely critical of my 1st R2R I understand why they are liked so much. I was under the impression that these dacs are known for warmth..& maybe other models truly are. I am a fan of the old skool tube sound so I welcome that exaggerated "warmth" at times. I don't feel that this dac exaggerates that type of tone but I definitely feel a hint of it. I've read people saying they prefer the older Pontus models vs the 15th because of the extra warmth or weight. I don't know if I would want to substitute any of the smooth clarity & detail of the 15th for more of that warmth. I certainly would not say the 15th is lean in sound. 

After this experience it makes me wonder about & want to hear these other R2R's in comparison. I would love to experience the Laiv's to get a better idea where the 15th stands. Or to hear for myself the differences between the 15th & the older models..a Gustard or even the Topping & Holo. At the moment this Pontus 15th is easily the best dac I've owned. Hopefully the growing pains I've had with this dac are done & it's reached a stable point. I can focus on my power issues now.