Just about to pull the trigger on Pontus 15th ...
This came up 12 hours ago... I like the small form factor but wonder if the sound quality can measure up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUv-Tb87y8Y
That’s fantastic. I believe Gustard gear works with either waveform, but according to their website, a sine wave connection is actually recommended—and the chart reflects that. You might want to try and compare both. The 50-ohm impedance matches, right? This suggests that the LHY 10MHz master OCXO is quite good, elevating the performance of already state-of-the-art gear. I’m tempted!
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@lanx0003 Yes, 50 ohms. I had read that sine wave was recommended, so I hadn't tried square wave. After you mentioned it, I did some internet searching and found forum posts where people found that the square wave yielded additional detail. Some felt it was too much. I figured it was worth a try. I think the LHY clock is definitely better than the clock in the Gustard U18. I haven't tried the internal clock on the dac with square wave going to U18. Figured it made sense to connect them both externally, but maybe it's fine to mix them. Thanks again for the suggestion. :) |
Alvin made an personal announcement earlier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wy5-Jw1phY Basically, what he’s saying is that May 2nd will be the start date for the incoming tariffs, and he urges people to act by April 20th to ensure they have enough time to process and ship their products before the deadline. I assume he was speaking only on behalf of Vinshine, not manufacturers in general. There was a question to Alvin—would we need to handle any potential import duties at customs ourselves, or will Vinshine take care of that for the buyers once we’ve paid the asking price? He didn’t address this in his earlier announcement. |
Got it, Thank you @perkri. |
Would not go with Pontus if it was me. I have second iteration. Lacks notably in soundstage height. Emphasis of high frequency detail which is quite nice but is not the incisive dynamic sound I prefer. Haven't heard Harmony, but would definitely make sure there is a return policy if you don't like it. Make sure seller pays for shipping in the event you have to return it. |
@halfastro can I ask you which dac you were using prior to owning your Ares 15th? I'm always curious what kind of differences you perceived..or what you like better with your Ares? |
@mattw73 I upgraded from the Geshelli Labs J2. I enjoy the smooth warm sound of the Ares 15th. It mellows out my Advance Paris A10 classic and B&W 705s. It makes a very nice sound. |
@halfastro right on. I'm familiar with the very early AKM J2. I felt it was a smidge "warmish" itself when I compared it to my sabre dacs. Not something I picked up on until I really compared them. For the money a good dac. I listened to their Dayzee at the last Florida audio show & thought it was really good. |
I have no experience with the Laiv products, but I do know that the distributor Alvin Chee is an amazing person to deal with.....as he was the former distributor for Denafrips. I spent some time with him at Axpona. That being said, there is a huge installed base of Denafrips DACs that sing their praise......myself included. |
He mentioned that at the beginning, so I thought he might be the person who could move it from the back end. Anyway, it was my fault for accidentally putting it in the Analog category. |
@lanx0003 I wouldn't say I was blown away by the Dayzee but from my listening experiences it's good. Not a lot of micro detail popping out..music sounded good though. If I could do it all over again I would go with the Micro Laiv..& saved a good deal of cash to boot. |
@mattw73 By now, your Pontus 15th should be sufficiently broken in. How would you assess its overall performance? Thank you. |
@lanx0003 believe it or not my unit still suffers from being inconsistent with its performance. I feel like it has really smoothed out though. It's the weight & texture of notes that still varies a little bit from day to day. It hasn't been a full 2 months yet but it does have some hours on it. Once I started putting it in stand-by at night I felt like improvements really started happening. I don't know why my 15th has taken so long to get to the quality it is at now..but it's come a long way. I thought it was pretty awful for awhile. It really has a nice clarity, texture, reverb, & weight to the notes lately. When the dac is hitting on all cylinders it's very 3 dimensional, just very good. But for whatever reason some days I'll kick it on & that extra weight to male voices & notes is a little flat. Few hours later & you will feel that fullness again. For awhile it could go days before that extra warmth would return. So I feel like it's all coming together..at its own pace lol. But like I said, when it's sounding good, & you play a good hi-res recording you are treated to a very nice performance between & beyond the speakers. This dac has been one of the most rollercoaster experiences I've ever had with a piece of hifi equipment. |
@lanx0003 Have you had any luck selecting a new dac? |
@sls883 During this time while I were torn among Harmony uDAC, Gustard X26 iii and DF 15th, I acquired Topping D90 iii Discrete to try and I like it. It has very good separation, good layering, 3D palpability I am craving for. The high notes notes are so intricated that I heard something that I never heard before. The SS is not wider than the cheaper dac I had and that is not bad thing, because the notes are outlined and positioned much better yielding more defined sense of stage. The bass notes are more weighty and nimble. I actually turn off the PEQ and found the tonal balance from low ends are still kept. I may keep it in the 2nd system. I also tried smsl po100 pro ddc bet. the Ultra and D90 using I2s and got better result as expected. I also tried CA Mxn10 feeding rca to D90 and the combo sounds the best to my ears. The review from one of the trustworthy reviewers was finally released and gave uDAC very high remark. He specifically compared the uDAC with D90 discrete and conclude they perform equally well in many technical aspects but are distinct in terms of sound color (warmth) and choice will be users’ preference dependent. (uDAC is warmer). I may retain D90 since the violin / piano sounds more natural / accurate to my ears. I do not wish the violin sound to be tamed down by a warmer DAC. If the Gustard X26 iii is elected and auditioned in the near future for my 1st system, the stuffs we were talking about will follow through, i.e., DDC w/ clock in (uDDC / U18 / SU2) and the 10mhz master (Lhy ock2) plus Smsl pl200T (w/ a clock in). I will need 3 clock in and Lhy is the only choice. A lot of gears to be acquired for a slow thinker. |
@mattw73 The seemingly random, non-time-of-day pattern you've described is indeed puzzling. Given that your equipment has already exhibited qualities like a three-dimensional soundstage and full-bodied tonality, it's likely that the gear has undergone sufficient break-in. This leads me to consider whether the issue might be related to power supply fluctuations. Do you currently use a power conditioner? |
@lanx0003 Glad that you found something that you like. I haven't heard the Topping D90, but I frequently read good things about it. |
@lanx0003 I think that you bringing up power supply fluctuations was a great thought. This is exactly what I have been thinking about the last couple weeks. Honestly I just didn't go into it as I didn't know what others may think. I was also wondering if this is an issue with the internal power supply of the dac? When the dac seems to be hitting on all cylinders like I described, the output of the dac seems to be stronger. More volume though the volume knob hasn't been touched. Like the output voltage is fluctuating from day to day. I do not use a conditioner on my main pieces (Dac, Pre, Amp, Sub) Those are basically running off the wall outlet thru a basic Furman box. All of my sources & anything with a Switch Mode PS runs thru one of those $500 dollar Panamax jobbies. My wall output voltage has been running high as I've been keeping an eye on it & testing it. As high as 128v but mostly between 121v-126v. I have been looking at different conditioners & voltage regulators lately. I'm not sure what to think. But I do strongly feel like when the Dac sounds it's best the signal is stronger or louder to the preamp. It has left me wondering if this is a Dac issue or the power that is feeding the dac. I don't have experience in this domain. |
@mattw73 I am no electric engineer (civil eng.) but looking at source for ANSI C84.1 which is the the national standard for utility voltage tolerance in North America (see below), it seems the normal range for continuous use of electrical device on user end is 110v - 126 v (+5%) and variation outside this range should be infrequent. Sensitive electronic devices will be more vulnerable to the variations. Not sure if this needs attention but just pass it on fyi.https://voltage-disturbance.com/voltage-quality/voltage-tolerance-standard-ansi-c84-1/
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@lanx0003 right on & thanks for sharing the link. I will say that for the last 5 or 6 days I have not heard any inconsistencies. When I play the 1st track I know right off the bat if it's sounding "Right". As you know I have been critical of the unit since day one. The last few days I have been impressed by this dac from top to bottom in sound. Listening to good quality instrumental tracks has wowed me at times. This dac has allowed my preamps to really show off their different sound qualities as well. Nothing sharp or fatiguing in the high end, no grain or that glare/ringing I could get at times from my chip dac. Very smooth & so detailed. The bite is still there on tracks that have it but it doesn't bite the ears. When the bow crosses over a violin you can hear more clearly all the different frequency's coming from that one stroke of the bow. You are getting all the information from the original signal. Which makes me think of something. With say a Sabre dac that we know objectively is as transparent as it gets. Inaudible noise floor..dynamic range as high as 22bits. Whatever the source is giving it that DAC is passing it along. But when I listen to the 15th it seems apparent I am getting a clearer window to micro details. It's hard for me to describe sound so I'll just say a more realistic or in the room sound & tone from quality tracks with the Pontus. If a sabre chip is as transparent as it gets, why does the Pontus have more information or the ability to highlight more information from the original signal? Anyway, the bass & midrange is the same way with this dac. I think the bass is fantastic. Again it's like the DAC is passing more information from the signal. Highlighting every strum & kick, no smearing of frequencies. Which happens a lot with bass depending on the system. The 15th is giving you every tone clearly defined & separated, even if the track is the type to jumble it all together in a fast pace. Your ears can clearly pick out the frequency change. Instruments or vocals don't get congested together. Everything is spaced out accordingly. It's a good dac. The better your system the better this will sound. That might seem like a common thing to say but I think this 15th will scale very well with pricier pieces. It allowed me to hear & perceive things from my preamps that I didn't know they had in them..& I'm not in the high end pool waters. The dac isn't overly warm but it has just enough richness & weight that anyone could clearly pick out vs my sabre dac..but it's not a richness & weight that will steal your attention from the music. More naturalness or realism vs the chip dac. It's kinda weird. Because in a way the differences are just subtle vs the chip dac. But subtly different in every aspect puts it in a different league & clearly better to my ears & with visual perceptions. So after being extremely critical of my 1st R2R I understand why they are liked so much. I was under the impression that these dacs are known for warmth..& maybe other models truly are. I am a fan of the old skool tube sound so I welcome that exaggerated "warmth" at times. I don't feel that this dac exaggerates that type of tone but I definitely feel a hint of it. I've read people saying they prefer the older Pontus models vs the 15th because of the extra warmth or weight. I don't know if I would want to substitute any of the smooth clarity & detail of the 15th for more of that warmth. I certainly would not say the 15th is lean in sound. After this experience it makes me wonder about & want to hear these other R2R's in comparison. I would love to experience the Laiv's to get a better idea where the 15th stands. Or to hear for myself the differences between the 15th & the older models..a Gustard or even the Topping & Holo. At the moment this Pontus 15th is easily the best dac I've owned. Hopefully the growing pains I've had with this dac are done & it's reached a stable point. I can focus on my power issues now. |
@mattw73 That is exactly the outcome I expected. The Pontus 15th is essentially a scaled-down Venus 12th and is supposed to be top-notch, as several reviewers have raved about. The value proposition is strong—gear of that caliber would easily cost several grand if designed and manufactured here in the U.S. You certainly described the sound nicely. Good news for you—if you're wondering where the 15th stands: A British Audiophile actually did the homework for everyone. He placed the Pontus 15th above the Gustard R26, Harmony DAC, and Holo Cyan 2, and rated it 'Outstanding'—his highest recommendation. He's one of the few 'trustworthy' reviewers I consistently follow for reliable information. I don't believe any Topping Dac could compete with it. The highly raved everSolo A8's internal Dac sounds flat image wise. |
@ozzy62 I guess none of the Audiogoners here are able to address this good question, but Tarun, A British Audiophile, is one of the reviewers who closely traces the evolution of the Pontus and Venus DACs and could possibly offer some insights (see his first three videos). WaveTheory also provides some useful comparisons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-BtA2XPiRU&t=805s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA9GD7arBlw&t=173s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zw4l69HCA0&t=605s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PBnl5Jqwi4 I finally pulled the trigger on the µDAC. Right out of the box, it sounds pretty good. According to Harmony, the unit underwent a 100-hour powered-on test at the factory. Soundstage is quite expansive—wider and taller (actually taller than any DAC I’ve heard, including the R26)—compared to the D90. Depth and layering are similar between the two. The biggest contrast between these DACs is that the D90 offers pinpoint focus and finely outlined edges, leaving more distinctive space between instruments. In contrast, the µDAC, like other R2R DACs, has softer edges and a sound that fills in the space more naturally. When listened to in isolation, both DACs offer well-defined instrument separation. Secondly, the µDAC’s midrange is richer and more seductive than that of the D90. Thirdly, I hear more micro-detail from the D90. Lastly, the µDAC has more bass presence, though it’s relatively softer and bolder, whereas the D90’s bass is more controlled and articulate. Both DACs are in the same league—just as iiWi has noted in his review—but they present music differently. I like both. However, for classical music, I prefer the D90 slightly, primarily because it outlines notes better and offers greater instrument clarity and precise imaging. Harmony also mentioned that many customers report further sonic improvement after about 200 hours of actual use. I suppose time will tell the µDAC’s ultimate capabilities. For now, I still notice a bit of harshness in poorly recorded tracks and hope it will smooth out over time. One thing that is sort of negative but completely normal is that the µDAC runs warmer than most DAC, sespecially chip-based ones, due to its discrete R-2R architecture and fully Class A analog output stage. I think the warmth is also attributable to its compact size and lack of heat sink. According to Harmony, as long as it’s touchable and has space for ventilation, it’s well within safe operating limits and there’s no cause for concern. Nevertheless, I am just concerned about the heat that will dry out the cap. more quickly over time. |
@lanx0003 Congrats on the purchase. Thanks for the very descriptive write up. Do you intend to try a clock or alternative power supply? |
The plan for the clock will depend on whether I purchase the Gustard. At this point, I'm leaning toward the X30. The X26 III is only marginally better than the D90 III Discrete, which I've kept for my second system. The µDAC is still under evaluation while it is breaking in, but the more I listen, the more its muddier mid-to-low registers become less appealing. While the µDAC does have a rich midrange, I keep returning to the D90’s clean presentation. Also, I’m becoming less tolerant of the heat it generates. X30 does not have that mid-low registers congestion I was referring above, I believe. I’ve been watching the X30 for a while, but the price hasn’t dropped during the last two major holidays. I’ll probably wait until the end of this year to make a decision. |
@lanx0003 it's been reported that Gustard is coming out with a new r2r dac. Somebody wrote that it would replace the X30, but that seems odd. I'm happy with my setup, so I haven't investigated it. |
@lanx0003 selfishly im glad you went ahead with the udac purchase. Your initial description & then comparison to the D90 seems familiar to my personal thoughts of R2R vs good chip dac. Once you have experienced the best qualities of something like the D90 it's hard to accept something less in my opinion. The detail, clarity, & perfect lines to notes or instruments. Similar to my early impressions of the Pontus. I liked the extra weight, the soundstage enlargement but I didn't think I would want to trade detail & clarity for it. With time the Pontus did eventually clean itself up. Which is what I guess the different Denafrips models do. You get a strong taste of the R2R attributes with their entry model & each step up gives you more & more of the precision of say a delta sigma. This is just my take on it..from a person who has only owned one denafrips or R2R dac. Give the Laiv it's due time. At even one month in with the 15th I was thinking to myself, WTF are all these people gushing over? You have good experience with dacs in your price range & the D90 is no slouch. Trust your ears which I'm sure you will. I see you are already looking at & considering bigger fish but just give the Laiv some hours. I'm just passing on what most people kept telling me & it did eventually work out. But I wouldn't mind stepping up another level past my P 15th. & I'm sure I will at some point. Definitely keep us posted & keep sharing your thoughts. I enjoy living thru other people's experiences & opinions on gear I haven't had the pleasure of trying. Good luck. |
@sls883 Is it the R30? I believe the prototype has been demoed at some shows. If it's what I think it is, this would be the R2R version of the X30, replicating its features—such as the OCXO clock, relay-based R2R volume control, built-in linear power supply (LPS), and other great features usually only found in high-end products from brands like Denafrips' Terminator. If that’s the case, that’s fantastic—it might even help or promote the X30's price a bit for those looking to jump in. I've never seen such consistently high marks (95 and above out of 100) across all sonic performance categories, including noise floor, resolution, dynamics, frequency response, and soundstage. It was even rated 'Outstanding' by Tarun.
@mattw73 I’ll continue marching on and patiently wait for the potential transformation of the µDAC. It’s received a lot of positive buzz from trustworthy reviewers, and I hope their assessments prove to be reliable. I’m even willing to invest in a linear power supply or a better DDC for it, to see where it leads me.
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@lanx0003 yeah, it is the R30. I'm very happy with the X30. I like it a lot more than the R26 that I had. I'm sure the new R30 is also notably better than the R26. |
So far, I’ve accumulated 60 hours of listening and 40 hours of power-on time (operating at 104°F), in addition to the 100 hours of factory burn-in. Similar to my previous experience with the Gustard R26, I conducted a group, non-blind listening test comparing the CA MXN10’s internal DAC, the Topping D90 III Discrete, and the Harmony µDAC. All units were connected directly to my Cambridge Audio integrated amplifier, the Azur 851A. The MXN10, highly praised by Stereophile and rated Class A, was used here as a benchmark. While the MXN10 is capable of audiophile-grade sound, its soundstage is rather flat. For some music tracks, I switched among the devices every 30 seconds to leverage human short-term (active) memory. For genres like classical music, I listened to entire pieces and took notes throughout. The results were quite straightforward:
It’s important to note that my inability to hear soundstage layering from the µDAC doesn’t mean other reviewers are wrong. Perhaps the µDAC is capable, just not in my setup. The D90 Discrete, on the other hand, renders layering convincingly, making me the happiest audiophile in the world - while also making me wonder, “What the heck, why can’t the µDAC do this?” I had the same expectations—and the same disappointment - with the R26 before. It is time to let go of another piece of gear and move on. I’m not sure if a flat fee of $125 spent on this adventure was worthwhile, but at least I had fun. |
@lanx0003 Interesting findings. If you had fun with the testing, it was worth it. You could spend that much going out to dinner. It's all about system synergy and personal preference. Hang in there until you find the right fit for you. |
@lanx0003 that's a bummer that the Udac didn't get you were you wanted to be. $125 maybe isn't completely worth the results you gathered but at least now you know. And I do agree with your point that maybe the Laiv will have better results in another system set up. I am very familiar with the MXN10. I bought one when they 1st came out & used it steady for a few months. My opinion was that it's internal DAC for the money was enjoyable. It gave me an enjoyable warmish tone but I also understand the flat-ish soundstage you speak of..with the internal dac. Playing around this weekend using my sabre & 15th the differences aren't as grand with the 15th & certain components. I wouldn't classify any of them as garbage components..just different from one another. Everything has an affect or makes a difference with the end results..as we already know.
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@sls883 @mattw73 I guess the problems lies in the pickiness I have imposed on the gears and different expectation of the term 'layering.' In my book the term 'layering' includes the followings: 1) Depth - front-to-back placement of sounds; e.g., vocals close, drums farther back; 2) Height - perceived vertical location, e.g., cymbal/voice sounding higher than bass; 3) Width left / right placement across the soundstage; and 4) Separation - clarity and space between each instrument or sound source. I could hear the distinct front-to-back sound level differences of instruments through the µDAC—e.g., on tracks from Modern Cool by Patricia Barber. Nevertheless, the edges of notes aren’t as well defined as with the D90, which results in a diminished perception of depth when compared side by side. The µDAC’s presentation tends to be fuzzier and coarser around the edges, filling the space between instruments and masking the sense of separation. I went back to some reviews and noticed that most of them described instrument separation and layering as distintive qualities and hence separate aspects. I guess I just prefer the D90 Discrete’s presentation much more. Just found a Gustard X26 III in 'very good' condition at a discounted price and fully refundable. This time, I’m taking a safer approach to auditioning. Like you said, paying over $100 in return penalties is questionably worthwhile. |
@sls883 I recall you had the U18 DDC, and may I ask you a question? I ordered a used one and hooked it up with the µDAC. The I²S settings on the µDAC were set to be identical with the “Gustard” (1st) mode on U18, but I’m getting static noise. Did you ever encounter something like that? Thanks! |
@lanx0003 I've never gotten any static. I'm not sure what would cause that. Maybe the cable? |
@lanx0003 - or you could start a new thread under 'Digital' posing the same question? A lot of folks might read it who wouldn't think to look in 'analog'. |
@sls883 @larsman The issue is gone—I really had no clue what happened. I switched to other outputs/inputs (coax, TOSLINK), and it worked fine. Then, when I cycled back to I²S, the issue disappeared. Overall, the image seems focused a bit over Smsl ddc. The very affordable smsl seems able to reach 85-90% of the U18. Not bad at all as several reviewers / users pointed out. The U18 has much substantial weight due to the toroidal transformer though for its low-noise power supply. A compelling price proposition at $399. |
@lanx0003 Good deal. Glad it's working for you. |
@sls883 @mattw73 I guess I was mistaken about the µDAC. I kept playing it—with only a few short breaks over the past days—and have now accumulated another 50–60 hours of music playback. At this point, it probably has around 110–120 hours of music playing time and about 140 hours powered on. The layering has finally come through, and the congestion in the low-midrange and upper bass is gone. Coupled with a wider soundstage (compared to the D90), my listening experience now surpasses what I had with the D90 and has never been this satisfying. The D90 still delineates notes more precisely, but the more homogeneous sound field produced by the µDAC makes the overall presentation feel more natural. And that rich, slightly more forward midrange is simply second to none. Thanks to both of you for walking me through this. That said, I hate to admit it—this means I now have to keep another DAC… while the third one (Gustard X26 III) is still on its way.
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