Jupiter Copper Foil, Paper & Wax Cap Versus Jensen Cap 0.10uF 630Vdc Copper Foil Ceramic
Greetings, Your advice and comments would be most helpful and appreciated. I will need to change my current capacitors in my tube power amp as one of my current Jensen 0.1uF 630V Copper Foil, PIO, Aluminium is now a problem - caused a EL34 tube heater to glow red. I will need four new capacitors.
I am considering two possible replacements:
1. 0.1uF 600Vdc Jupiter Copper Foil, Paper & Wax Capacitor 2. Jensen Capacitor 0.1uF 630Vdc Copper Foil Ceramic Case
Any comments on how these compare in their sound characteristics? I would like a cap that offers balance across all frequencies, control, richness, enticing tone, and transparency. Also ease of flow of the music. Thanks so much, Bob
Agree with Above! Also, I have found Vcap Odams superior to my long time favorite Jupiter Copper foil in both crossovers and electronics. Much better bass, dynamics and openness. Odams are also a tad smoother and more neutral in the upper mids and highs. Jupiter’s are a tad better at inner detail and a little more lively.
just a quick add. if you prefer the extra sizzle/resolution the jupiter foil is the way to go. however, the jupiter HT is a little faster and more musical in the coupling cap position than its brethren. and it's way cheaper. it's my fave!
I have used all 3 Vcap s ,as well as Jupiter Copper foil , and the $$ OverpricedDuelund . BTW since the Jupiter was reviewed in 2014 it has been improved upon . I have over 20 years and 1,000s of actual testing and listening hours and comparing after a minimum 3-400 hours and a 12 specific recordings that test the full spectrum of music . the vh copper Teflon has the most absolute resolution ,But at the cost of some naturalness depth and tonal balance. If I have a warmer tube amp then the vh audio maybe the ticket for balance. Caps like Mundorf too much plastic takes away from naturalness, I do like their supreme silver oil. The supreme gold silver oil too tipped up which is abit unnatural. for Loudspeakers and preamp coupling caps without reservation the Jupiter Copper foil is my favorite of any capacitor especially in Loudspeakers yes even vs Duelund and by far the Best Buy vs Duelund ,or VH per$$ dollar spent . Every one has their opinion , these new caps are good to over 160 degrees , they Have not used beeswax for a several years now .
I've had good results with both the Jupiter cooper foil and Miflex copper. My Preamp called for a 2.0uf for signal cap in each channel I had already changed out all the caps in my speaker except for rear firing tweeter which called for a 1.0uf. So just to experiment I bought 4x 1.0 Jupiter and 2x 1.0 Miflex. I installed both the 2 Jupiter 1.0 to make a 2.0 per channel in Preamp and 1.0 Miflex in tweeter then ran them 24/7 for 3 weeks. Then I started flipping them around. I put a combination of Jupiter and Miflex in each channel in the preamp then back to all Jupiter in Preamp. I prefer the Miflex and Jupiter in the preamp. With Jupiter/ Miflex combo the bass is fuller and tighter to my taste. The Jupiter/ Jupiter combo was very nice also just different. Both combinations made cymbal sound right for the first time and both sounded very natural and refined. The preamp uses 6922 type. I did find with Jupiter/ Jupiter combo it liked the amprex orange globes which is a more analytical tube than the amprex bugle boys to me. Miflex Jupiter combo liked the bugle boy and orange globe. Both combinations liked the Amprex SQ gold pins. Mullards and Valvo's were fun but depending on recording.could get a little boring. I did put Miflex 0.1uf as bypass cap in main tweeter 8.2 cap but with all these caps installed I have no idea if they made a difference.
Did not read all the responses, but I agree with many of the comments regarding Jupiter's copper foil paper and wax caps. Use them to replace all interstage coupling caps in my Marantz 8B, and they worked wonders. Did other things with the amp too for vast improvement in sound.
I also agree that Jupiters might be a bit dubious in a hot environment. I noticed some blistering on the surface of the caps placed between the 6CG7 (6FQ7) phase inverter tubes and the El34 outputs. Was running the amp with 6L6GC with higher bias, and it was running hotter than it probably would have with EL34s, so perhaps the blistering would not have happened in a cooler EL34 environment; the amp was designed to run with El34s anyway.
One other thing, if you do go to check out the website noted above, check out the Miflex caps. These are excellent. If you have the space, they are large, very, for a given value, but they are excellent and mega constructed like a brick "s" house. They are also a comparative bargain price wise. If you check out Jupiters, wow, the price: I buy them from hificollective in the UK, but anywhere you look, wow, the price! Hifi collective sells the Miflex too at a much more reasonable price, but I was able to by them at a website either in Poland or the Czech Republic, four 0.33uF 600v for around 50 to 60 bucks including shipping. Other than Duelund....?, Jupiter and Miflex are the top rated ones. The Jupiter and Miflex come in 600v units for circuitry applications. The Duelunds are essentially for speaker crossovers with much lower voltage ratings.
Do yourself a favor if you're interested in the subject of capacitors, check out the website I mentioned. It is one of the best a most comprehensive comparisons of capacitors I have seen on the web. I hope he updates it soon; though it is fairly recent, you know things are always changing....ugg.
Has anyone tried Jupiter Copper Foils bypassed with a V-cap CuTF? Just
curious if a .01uF V-cap would benefit a Jupiter CF with its resolving
and leading edge detail or will it detract from the Jupiter's already
beautiful organics?
It really doesn't seem to work like that. Each cap seems to have a different 'speed' based on its value and type of construction. As a result, a smaller cap is usually 'faster' (less dielectric absorption, lower series resistance) than a larger one so what happens is you smear the signal when two caps are placed in parallel (this applies to coupling caps, not power supply bypass). You are far better off just giving it your best shot.
It is for this reason that we designed our gear to only use smaller value caps.
Has anyone tried Jupiter Copper Foils bypassed with a V-cap CuTF? Just curious if a .01uF V-cap would benefit a Jupiter CF with its resolving and leading edge detail or will it detract from the Jupiter's already beautiful organics?
Very rare any quality cap leaks I have used Jensen’s at least 80 over the last 4 years not One has failed back in 2010 they had some issues that was due to sealing the ends ,now they use a heavy solder seal,then. A vacuum silicone on the ends . The oil caps i in Duelund , a Jensen and the excellent New caps Milflex from Poland which I just enstalled 5 .022per speaker with a larger Jensen on the mids and Loudspeaker Zobel ,and a Duelund Bypass on the end of my AMT tweeter, the have oil impregnated paper ,no a bath of oil . and BTW I put the Superb Path Audio Resistors throughout my Loudspeaker chain ?i have been using them in builds for over 5 years Fantastic synergy they truly transform your Loudspeakers in any position.psrts connecxion hardly ever has proper stock.i now order them from Nick at Hifi collective win the UK when I owned my Audio store there I learned a ton about modding . Milflex Copper foil poly,paper in oil caps are for the money best cap value for the buck on par with Jupiter Copper foil but take longer to fully runin up to 500hours just ask Jeff at Sonic Craft.
The bypass caps are still $100 each and I am wondering whether to just
go the whole hog and purchase the Duelund Capacitor 0.1uF 630Vdc
CAST-PIO-Cu (Sn).
How close would the Jensen plus Duelund
combination come to sounding as good as the Duelund Capacitor 0.1uF
630Vdc CAST-PIO-Cu (Sn)? I think this is where my final decision lies.
Again, keep in mind that if used as a coupling cap, the bias on the power tubes may be affected if either cap develops an electrical leakage. The result could be shortened power tube life, but it could also result in a damaged power transformer.
The added $100s extra for a .01 cast is not worth it the value is so small , thst is why the Duelund .01 ur Bypass cap is used if you wanted a Big difference then justget the wallet out what size is the tweeter capacitor 2-3uf ? If so over $ 1k for 2 cast caps . The Duelund Bypass caps I hav3 in my speaker well worth the extra $$, and for the record just look st my feedback on the Duelund Zobel Clarifiers I Make ,they work cleaning up all high frequency noise and work with Any Speaker, a simple but very effective upgrade. Unless you have tried these you can’t make a educated statement .To a true Audiophile even a few % is well worth a small purchase.
Yes, I definately would like tom add the chararcteristics of the Duelunds a the Jensen are 'dark' and I am missing the higher and extended frequencies that i enjoy. The bypass caps are still $100 each and I am wondering whether to just go the whole hog and purchase the Duelund Capacitor 0.1uF 630Vdc CAST-PIO-Cu (Sn).
How close would the Jensen plus Duelund combination come to sounding as good as the Duelund Capacitor 0.1uF 630Vdc CAST-PIO-Cu (Sn)? I think this is where my final decision lies.
Granny ring I agree ,I use the Duelunds as my main best seller in my Loudspeaker Clarifiers a bit pricy $100 each but ,give them a solid 200 hours and they truly do open up the soundstage and micro-details
@grannyring @audioman58 Thank you both for your comments and advice. That's a very interesting comment re: bypassing with a Duelund -01 bypass cap. Thank you, Bob
My experience is the Jensen’s, in tube gear and dacs, are just darker than the Jupiter or Duelund copper foil caps. I also modify and upgrade gear for a living and do all manner of upgrades with caps. Jensen are good caps, but not as good in the micro details, resolving , and air as the Jupiter copper foil or Duelund. These areas seem to reflect the sonic need of the OP so I am specifically talking about this “presence” area of the spectrum. . Vcaps copper are also more extended and resolving.
A good option, keeping what you now have, is to bypass your Jensen with the Duelund pure silver .01uf bypass cap from Parts Connextion. I have had great results with this combo in electronics. You will definitely get more air, sparkle and resolution. More realism!
I have had all Jensen caps the ceramic body is very open and detailed themost neutral of the Jensen Copper foil caps. The Copper body in my opinion sounds the Most natural with a very extended but richer upper end.great for Solid state equipment the ceramic you may or may not likebetter In a tube circuit.
@audioman58 @grannyring Thank you. Do you have any experience or thoughts on whether the Jensen PIO Copper Foil Copper Body would deliver more high frequencies - extended highs -than the ceramic body? Thx, Bob
The Jensen Copper foil, copper body I like the best of the bunch in my system even more deep soundstage and more organic sounding then the Jupiter Foil,I my 2 systems I have had the same results, since I do mods I have the exact values and 300 hours on them and once in the system 4 hours of play time then play 8-10 songs you know well. i always have at least 2 others to listen and help-evaluate. in another system it could prove slightly different in Audio nothing is set in stone.
Yes the Jensens are darker than the Jupiter copper foil as pointed out. They will open up a tad, but won’t deliver in the highs as extended and sweet as the Jupiter. They have the personality you are currently hearing even after burn in. They are known to be a tad rolled off and very “polite” in the highs. I also find them thicker in the upper mids.
Marish2000 the black gate were excellent caps they are a electrolytic more for power supplies ,ask your tech where it is. No electrolytic cap should be in the signal path, but it is a great cap for power supplies. On your Jensen how many hours in it they need a minimum of 200 hours to really start to open up 300 hours better still.
Thank you @audioman58 I have settled on the Jensen Copper PIO ceramic body. I have have them installed and I agree that they are quite neutral. The midrange and bass are pronounced. I would like more of the high frequencies - as the caps get played in, should I expect to get more high frequencies? My tech also changed another cap in the signal from a British cap (don't know the make) to a blackgate. I am wondering if the blackgate has somehow reduced the high frequencies. My tech said he thought that the blackgate would provide a more overall even/balanced sound. I can always change it back to the British cap. @audioman58 Do you think blackgates 'open up' more in the high frequencies as they play in? Or is their characteristic one of less 'highs' and more 'lows'?
Ido a lot of modding ,especially the last 10 years. I make Zobel Clarifiers for Loudspeakers as Well as rebuild Xovers .yes the Jupiter Copper foil are-excellent But The Jensen Copper foil oiled paper come in 4 case types which all sound different .the CopperBody has more life and to me better natural prat then the paper body model, the ceramic has body but a bit more nuetral. the Copper body Jensen is a bit richer then the Jupiter, a bit better depth of soundfield all these caps take a solid 300 hours to fully open up. there are always other factors,even inductor type ,I like Jantzen Copperfoil waxed paper, and their open core for Bass,not over priced and close to Duelund in Quality.and make can make a difference ,same goes for resistors ,ovoid all cheap mox type,and cement resistors.
I never tried Teflon capacitors. But I tried a lot of different polypropylene from different producers meta-lased, film and foil. All of them sound bad for my test. Synthetic, flat tonality, not natural, not musica,l not smooth not organic,... I wold prefer any paper in oil type capacitor
to any polypropylene capacitor.
I put Jupiter VT 8uF to LPF crossover. The break-in period of large capacitors takers a lot of time. I burned it in cable burner for 3 days fist. But after that it sounded very dull. Then, I burned it other 6 days. Now it sounds much better. But I steel anticipate much more transparent and vivid sound. @grannyring , can you enplane, how is the sound of Jupiter capacitors changing during burn-in? People without patience (like me) can do wrong decisions...
I used the Vcaps copper ones and very pricy. Very long run in period. They were simply too thin sounding to me, but very resolving for sure. I also like the HT Jupiter capacitor in beeswax. Nice tone and very organic sounding. Not as much air and inner detail as the copper foils, but good for sure and less money.
I suppose one’s sonic priorities and tastes are at play here. I am not a detail guy. I am more of a tone and body guy.
Thanks Bill but my partner and I repair/rebuild 5 to 10 components each month for many years now. Counterpoint we have done every preamp design that they have, Counterpoint phono stages,and Counterpoint power amps, Melos preamps and power amps, EAR, ARC, CJ, DeHaveland (spelling), Audible Illusions, Supratek, Coincident, Dude (Pat changed the caps out with V-Cap Copper), Berkeley, Musical Fidelity, Hovland, Graaf, Peach Tree, VAC, Blue Circle, MAC, Sim Audio, Lamm, Wyteck, HK, Pass, Sony Techniques, Kenwood, Rowland, Levinson, Marantz, Rogue, Jadis, Naim, Denon, BAT, Luxman, Channel Islands, Krell, First Watt, Linn, Cary, Hafler, VTL, CEC, Wadia, Metronome, Audiomeca, Museatex, EMM Labs, Theta, Adcom, Spectral, Bryston, B&K, and many more. While we have not put in better caps in everyone of these components, we have done comparisons in many. Since I have many values of both caps laying around especially the Jupiters, we have been able to let the owner of the gear we repair/upgrade choose what sound they prefer. So far the V-Cap was the cap selected. Even GT Audio the speaker manufacturer in New Jersey that has used my DAC for the audio shows, changed to V-Caps over the Jupiter capacitors in their X-overs with the same results, much bigger soundstage, detail, etc. They noted the same impact on the sound comparing the two capacitors.
Now I am not saying that everyone will have the same results, that would be dumb on my part, but so far, this is what my experience has provided. Did you use the oil, copper or the Teflon V-capacitors? I did not like the sound of the teflon as I already stated above.
@marish200 - copper foil Jupiter capacitors. I did not like the bees wax ones at all except in amps and preamps. The higher uF can also make a difference.
Also, we did modify an amp a few years back and the Jupiter caps failed. Jupiter replaced them at no charge and if my memory is correct, they had a production change. I am not saying that they are bad capacitors, I think they are excellent, I just prefer the V-Caps once broken in. You have to try and decide for yourself though.
I used the Jupiter caps in varied positions in all kinds of gear (crossovers to amps) so my comments are based on use beyond one or two products. I must have upgraded and modified at least 30 DIFFERENT audio pieces with this cap...perhaps more. With all things audio the end result is often gear and system dependent. No doubt in your two pieces, your particular design and flavor, that was your experience.
However, the Jupiter copper foil cap is wonderfully balanced top to bottom with no part of the sound spectrum emphasized. This is evident when used across a wide spectrum of gear, not just one line. This is also consistent with a plethora of professional and manufacturer reviews including Humble.
As always these caps need over 200 hours of break in before judging. This is especially true of Jupiter and Vcaps.
"The Jupiter copper foil had too much emphasis on the mid-range so it gave the impression of a thicker sound more musical sound at first" Are you meaning the The Jupiter copper foil wax & paper are thicker sound in the mid-range? Thx , Bob
"Jupiter is richer sounding than Vcaps with better meat on the bones weight and body. Vcaps are more resolving and sharper leading edges. However this resolution comes with a slightly thinner sound."
I don't agree with this statement. The Jupiter Oil Caps are way more open with much better detail in my opinion and are a better build quality again my opinion. The Jupiter copper foil had too much emphasis on the mid-range so it gave the impression of a thicker sound more musical sound at first but the V-Cap oil was a much better all around sound. The V-Cap copper is a level above all of the others. I did not like the V-Cap Teflon at all. Just not to my liking.
How did I base my opinion - I build DACs, preamps and phono stage components. I can compare the different caps in each component since I build multiple units and compare directly by swapping them out. No need to swap out the capacitors, just switch the units. Plus other people also hear them as I change the units and they all prefer the V-Caps.
LErik is so right. Try them. For me and others they are just too forced and tilted up in the presence area. My ears could not relax with them. Others love them. If you like tilted up upper mids and highs and the perception of uber detail, then you may like these. Perhaps your system could use this presence area boost? Perhaps not? You know your current sound and what you are looking for sonically.
@johnss @atmasphere @grannyring Thank you All for your comments and suggestions. I really appreciate it. I am also considering the Mundorf Supreme Silver Gold Oil capacitor 0.10uF 1000V , Has anyone experienced the Mundorf’s? The Dielectric is Polypropylene. There own Mundorf description says, "These unique characteristics offer a capacitor type of equally unique musicality: finely nuanced and lively shining acoustic colours, which combine into a breathtaking, beautiful, live-like music experience with the utmost precision, presence and three-dimensional plasticity."
Does the higher voltage rating improve/change the sound compared to the 630Vdc of the Jensen that I am replacing?
I have never had an issue with Jupiter copper foils leaking or breaking down in any way over the years. I have with Duelund and Jensen however. Jupiter is richer sounding than Vcaps with better meat on the bones weight and body. Vcaps are more resolving and sharper leading edges. However this resolution comes with a slightly thinner sound.
Have used both Jupiter and Jensen in a number of my own amps and amps I have upgraded for friends.
would agree with jmolsberg, the Jupiter copper caps are really good souning caps; very organic sounding.
The Jensens are very similar, maybe a tad less organic, but the aluminum case is a plus.
but before you buy either, would suggest you take a look at the cap that caused your tube to fail. if the amp runs hot and there is not enough ventilation, the Jupiter and Jensen caps do not do well in a hot environment.
in one of the amps I upgraded with copper foil and wax caps, an output tube also redplated. The owner brought it back. Popped the bottom cover off and found the wax had melted and dripped out of the cap, and ran through the ventilation slots on the bottom cover. Must have made a mess on the surface the amp was sitting on. Likely failure is the the cap eventually passed DC, or became electrically leaky.
In that hot running amp, put in the Jupiter Vintage Tone caps. Not as nice sounding as the coppers, but much more robust for hot amp applications.
@marish200 What you experienced is why we don't use paper and oil coupling capacitors in our products. They sound great but we've seen a good number of paper and oil caps develop a slight amount of electrical leakage (which is to say they can develop enough resistance that they don't entirely block all the DC that they are supposed to), which can mess with the bias on the output section- and cause the symptom you describe.
A capacitor that can do the same job of musical delivery is the copper foil V-Cap Teflon. No electrical leakage over time- very reliable.
Jupiter is the far better choice ...... if you want more inner detail, richness and spot-on tone. The Jensen cap is very good, but not as neural top to bottom with an obvious darkening and thickening of the sound
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