I will. It doesn't arrive in the shop for another week, but I will definitely let you (all) know. R
Jeff Rowlands Amp and Dac vs. VAC amp and DAC
Hello, I am new to this forum but I have a question. I am trying to pair an amp + DAC with my Wilson Sabrinas. I have listened to Jeff Rowlands integrated with the Aeris DAC. And the VAC Sigma integrated with the Aeris DAC. Price is a factor and so is space. Does the 625 need a pre-amp? Any suggestions or thoughts?
478 responses Add your response
Good news. The stereo store owner has offered to do a home audition once I confirm the amp (or two) that I have narrowed it down to. That is a relief. And, they are getting in the 200IQ in a week so I can also hear that. All is moving along and all of you who contributed to this thread played a major part. As I say each time — THANK YOU. Whatever experience or advice you have to share is really welcomed and is being digested and used in both my negotiations with the store and my own listening education. Hey, should we start talking about great songs to use for an audition!!!!!! LOL |
Rin, I use a single VAC Phi 200 to drive some TAD CR-1's that are a challenging load, and they handle it well - - been enjoying this match for 18 months now. The VAC has drive and pretty good bass grip for a tube amp IME (easily better than the EAR 890 I was using before with 8 KT-90's). Looking at the impedance and phase curves of the Sabrina, I'm thinking the Phi 200 would drive them well, too (using the 1-2 ohm tap, like I do for my TAD's). Regarding tube upkeep, I did have a couple of the Shuguang KT-88 tubes die on me prematurely, where it seemed that their internal structure fatigued apart due to the on/off thermal expansion. No drama or troubles other than having to get a replacement. This happened in my first of four years of use. I moved to Gold Lion KT-88's matched beautifully by TC Tubes and have had just solid performance, no troubles, and slightly better overall sound for my system (a bit richer in tone, while still being extended - - TAD's like that). Setting the bias on the tubes is really simple with the VAC system, takes only 60 - 90 seconds, and I have experienced virtually no drift over time. I listened to a lot of SS amps, but I keep coming back to tube amps because of that same magic that you are hearing! I'd easily go with the VAC, but you certainly should hear them in your system and home first. Any dealer selling equipment of this cost level should get behind a home audition, IMO. |
You are all so sweet. Thanks for pulling for me. I will insist on a home audition -- I totally agree this is only fair especially at these prices. They said I should bring the speakers to them. To be honest, I was flabergasted. I mean they are not easy to transport -- the amps are so much easier. I will let you all know how it goes and yes please keep rooting for me. It really helps. You have all really helped. In fact, you have already changed my mind to hear the 170 or 200 IQ. So, I am taking your advice and checking into it thoroughly. |
Pokey77, The fact that you felt that the ARC 75 watt integrated amplifier mated so well with the Wilson Sabrina is encouraging for very possible success with the VAC. I'll say it again that for the cost of the considered amplifiers an in home audition should be available. This is not a trivial purchase. Rinpoche we're pulling for you. Charles, |
Again as I mentioned before, I heard the Sabrina's with the wonderful ARC GSi75 tube integrated. It was just amazing. That integrated had an iron fist on the speakers and am still thinking about it since I heard the setup six-eight months ago. I've also heard the Sabrina's with the new D'Agostino solid state gear and it was also a great match. But I think the point at least several others are trying to make is, you, Rinpoche need to hear the Sabrina's with the amplification you are considering purchasing. Als comments are a good start, but the end of the story is whether you like the sound or not. It makes no difference if an amp can drive a speaker if you don't appreciate the sound they make together. The comment made by the dealer that a "three way is a three way" is unfounded. For so many reasons included all that were named by Al. Many amps will drive many speakers but if they don't have the magic you are looking for you'll just be disappointed. Make sure, to the best of your ability, that you audition the specific components together you are considering purchasing so that you will know whether or not you are getting what you'd hoped for. Finally, I heard my exact system in the store I bought from. When I got it home, well, lets just say I had a long way to go to get it most of the way there to how it sounded at the dealer. My room is not as big and most likely the power they had was better too. It is a big crap shoot but at least if you hear the components you want to run together in the same store at the same time you can attempt to make the best decision you can. I do wish you the very best in your journey and that you end up with what your really desire to hear - music! |
The shop insists a 3-way is a 3-way.Speaking frankly, this comment by the shop is nonsense. Some 3-ways (and other kinds of speakers) are best suited to be driven by solid state amplification, some are best suited to be driven by tube amplification, and some are equally at home with either. A speaker having a nominal impedance of 8 ohms or more, and having impedance that does not vary greatly as a function of frequency, and having higher than average sensitivity, will usually be suitable for use with either. To the extent that those criteria are not met, things become questionable. Over the years many of the models Wilson has produced have been used successfully with both kinds of amplification, even though many of those models have had 4 ohm nominal impedances (like the Sabrina). However, the graph of impedance vs. frequency for the Sabrina that I linked to in my first post in this thread, coupled with the associated comments that I quoted, as well as a comment in the main body of the review, as well as the Sabrina's somewhat low sensitivity, raised caution flags in my mind as to the suitability of that model for use with tube amplification. However this comment: ... The Wilson people I spoke to at Wilson Audio love VTL, VAC, ARC, and Nagra tubes with the Sabrinas.... as well as the comment you indicated earlier that Kevin Hayes had provided, as well as the video Knghifi linked to showing the Sabrina being driven by a VTL tube amp, as well as the inclusion of a 1 to 2 ohm output tap on the VAC iQ models, do provide a fair amount of confidence, albeit obviously not as much as an audition with your speakers would provide. Best of luck as you proceed. Regards, -- Al |
You know, that is a great question: what speakers I will listening to at the shop. The shop insists a 3-way is a 3-way. I feel a bit pushed on this one, but there are so few high-end shops in my neighbourhood. They used big Focal speakers that cost $10,000 more than the Sabrinas. So, I agree it is not a fair audition. I am trying, though, to hear the differences in the amps -- but are you saying the JR gear is more suited to the Sabrinas. The Wilson people I spoke to at Wilson Audio love VTL, VAC, ARC, and Nagra tubes with the Sabrinas. They said they pair well, in their opinion. I asked for a home audition but I don't see that happening. Is it the norm for shops to do that? |
Not with the Wilson's but with speakers at the shop. Rin, I would expect the speakers you hear at the shop would be well matched to the VAC amp but in any case it may be hard to predict the sound with the Wilson's without hearing the amp and speakers together especially in that the Wilson's may not be particularly tube amp friendly. Do you know what speakers specifically you will hear at the shop? |
Thank you all again. I will try to listen to the IQ gear this weekend and see how it compares both in price and sound with the Sigma and the Rowland. I am booked to listen on Saturday morning. Not with the Wilson's but with speakers at the shop. I will take Al's advice to heart and all of your inputs when listening. There is a lot to digest here and it has been amazingly useful. Instructive. Thoughtful. And informative. I can't thank you all enough for your time and wisdom. Will let you know how it goes if you are interested!!!! You can also try IQ with and without preamp from Aeris. |
Thank you all again. I will try to listen to the IQ gear this weekend and see how it compares both in price and sound with the Sigma and the Rowland. I am booked to listen on Saturday morning. Not with the Wilson's but with speakers at the shop. I will take Al's advice to heart and all of your inputs when listening. There is a lot to digest here and it has been amazingly useful. Instructive. Thoughtful. And informative. I can't thank you all enough for your time and wisdom. Will let you know how it goes if you are interested!!!! |
A lot will depend on how much money one wants to spend. A used VAC Phi 200 is a wonderful amplifier and much less costly than the newer VAC IQ amplifiers. It would be ideal to compare the Phi with the newer IQ amplifiers. The Phi could be as good sounding or verify close,who knows without listening? Given the cost of these amplifiers traveling to actually hear them would be helpful. Charles, |
Rinpoche, 170IQ and 200IQ are VAC latest amps. From what I was told, 1st lot of 200IQ has already been sold. All I'm saying is used prices for Phi200 will drop so keep in mind when negotiating. Kevin Hayes introduces 170IQ and 200IQ at CES 200IQ in action at CES Wilson Sabrina with VTL at CES I don't have 170IQ retail price but 2 170IQ is another option. |
Rinpoche, the 200iq and the 170 (which incorporates "iq" functionality but omits those letters from the model name) are linked to on this page. Ricred, thank you. In this case I don’t see any technical issues that would arise in using the Aeris DAC directly into a VAC or Rowland power amp, or into most other power amps for that matter. However both Ricred and a member who reviewed the Aeris in this thread that I referenced in one of my earlier posts have stated that they found adding a preamp to be sonically beneficial. In the recent past there have also been lengthy discussions of this question pertaining to DACs in general, in situations where the DAC provides a volume control. See this thread, for example. My perception has been that the prevailing (although certainly not unanimous) consensus has been that inserting a high quality preamp into the chain is likely to be sonically beneficial in most cases. FWIW, my own instinct would be to follow Knghifi’s recommendation and go with one of the new "iq" power amp models, initially without a preamp, ***PROVIDED*** that confidence can be established (preferably by audition) with respect to the issues I raised regarding the sonic synergy or lack thereof between a VAC tube amp and your Sabrina speakers. (And btw, the inclusion of a 1 to 2 ohm output tap on these models, that is not provided on the Sigma integrated, could very conceivably be beneficial in that regard). At a time of your choosing, now or in the future, you could then assess whether the addition of a preamp would be worth its cost to you. Perhaps by buying one used and then selling it if it did not provide a worthwhile benefit. Finally, I’ll second the comment Charles provided earlier to the effect that VAC equipment is designed in an extremely robust manner, and can be expected to be very reliable. And their support and customer service is second to none. Best regards, -- Al |
Rinpoche, If your question is technical(based on specifications), I submit Almarg would be best to answer. The Aeris DAC does have a volume control, but I think it sounds better with a preamp. You need to take what I'm saying with a grain of salt, because I'm firmly in the camp of those that believe most systems sound better with a very good preamp in it. |
Hello again to all of you. I wonder, could I hook the Jeff Rowlands Aeris DAC to a VAC Phi 200 amp directly? Do I need an integrated amp or a pre-amp? Doesn't the Aeris act as a pre-amp, at least for now? I mean, what do you think? With the new VAC 170IQ and 200IQ, I would avoid Phi 200 unless it's a GREAT GREAT deal. Used prices will drop with demand for the new amps increases. If buy Phi 200 used, it would be difficult comparing Aeris with and without a preamp so try comparing Aeris to a 200IQ. Once you have a barometer on the different combinations, then go shopping for Phi 200 if chooses. |
Hi rinpoche, It seems like the Rowland amplifier really impressed you but nonetheless you appear to be more captivated by the VAC. Of course the more often you use the VAC the sooner you'll have to replace the tubes. Good news is that the amplifier doesn't require a multitude of tubes and the KT 88 output tubes are modestly priced (compared to my amplifier's 300b tubes). The VAC is "very" rugged,well built and reliable. A good friend of mine had the VAC Phi 300.1 and had no problems with it at all during his 5 years of ownership. As has been acknowledged, you need to hear both amplifiers in your system. Charles, |
The TV and film aspect of the system is one of my concerns about choosing tubes over SS. I don't really have enough room for two sets of speakers and another receiver. We could just use the TV alone for sound on a day-to-day basis and use the 'complete system' for films and perhaps our favourite shows. The Jeff Rowland 625 S2 won't be an issue, but the VAC, I think, will. We do watch a fair bit of TV because I am working on a book on film at the moment, but again I don't need to have it through the main system all the time. My main interest and purpose here is music, and secondarily to have access to TV and film when desired. I think it would mean going through tubes more often, is that right? Sort of like servicing a car if you drive it more? Or are there other issues I don't know about? Is the VAC delicate? Can it take more hours of useage? Or is it just going through the tubes faster and having to replace them? Yes, the advice here has been fabulous. Thank you all so much. |
Considering your opening short list you're getting terrific advise from some of the most respected people who frequent this site. You mentioned the possibility of using this gear for TV or Home Theater. The quality and service history of both manufactures is without question. I strongly suggest you carefully consider just how much TV you and your family watch. Typically, it's usually much more than you think. A current $300 receiver and a set of Elac speakers will convey all the fidelity 99% of whats broadcasted and you won't ever worry if it's accidentally left on. |
That is excellent. The recommendations are all very good. I will try to see if we have dealers in the area that carry those brands. I did listen to the Rowland integrated and it didn't have the same beauty as the 625 (which really does compete with the VAC -- except minus that little tube magic I have been referring to). I have heard very good things about the Hegel and some of the other DACS you mentioned. Great idea. Thanks! |
Rinpoche, to a some extent price is not an indicator of quality. Both the VAC and the Rowlands are truly premium quality products that charge premium prices. I'm not going to argue that you could match or exceed their sound quality at a substantially lower price, but I do argue that you can achieve the sound qualities you desire at a lower price. You would have to do a side by side comparison to uncover the "lesser" components and fortunately long term happiness doesn't involve side by side comparisons. Specifically, both Rowland and Ayre make integrated solid state amps in the $10k area. Pass, Hegel and BAT make solid state power amps in the $5-8k range. RAM makes a wonderful tube power amp at $5k. Grace, Mytek, Esoteric (Teac), MSB and Bricasti make great quality DACs that can all be used as preamps at a lower cost than the Rowland. These are my opinions, so take them for what they are. From you post it sounds like you have good ears -- ultimately you should trust them. |
rinpoche, Your say you aren't an audiophile but you love listening to music, I'd strongly advise you to keep that perspective and mindset. Just approach choosing audio gear as a means to enjoying music. This keeps it simple and honest. Choose the products that move you the most emotionally. Don't worry at all about product bashing, it is just personal opinion and nothing else. Trust your ears and taste, there are no audio products that generate 100% consensus ever! Tube preamp with SS amplifier is a popular choice and can be terrific but it isn't the same as a tube power amplifier. I'm not saying one is inherently better than the other, just that they aren't the same listening experience. As you listen to more components and speakers you'll find out what you are drawn to. I believe that you'll be fine. Charles, |
As a previous owner of Wilson Sophia 2s, 3s, and Sasha 1s, I submit much of the hatred of Wilson is due to "some extent" of Wilson owners. Many, but not all Wilson owners really exhibit the classic clique mentality(they really don't like the thought of someone not liking Wilson's). At one time I defended Wilson Speakers and would argue with anyone who disagreed, I don't own them any more, but I respect their dynamic ability. Just my thoughts. |
Tube preamp and ss amp is always a good option. Just be sure ss amp does not have low input impedance. You want 30kohm or higher input impedance on the amp and many fit that bill. Fwiw I run an arc tube preamp and Class D ss amps and a SS. class D integrated in another. The main difference in sound I would say is the arc tube preamp adds just a touch of warmth while the class d integrated has a similar sound and smooth as silk midrange but not inherently warm at all. I would expect similar differences between Rowland and Vac amplification. Which sounds better? Whichever of the two I happen to be listening to at the moment. 🏄 |
I am back to being nervous about tubes — vs. SS — where this thread started. I am not sure if I am up to it?The VAC 200iq that Knghifi had suggested provides automatic biasing of the output tubes, which is a feature that makes using a tube amplifier a good deal more convenient than would otherwise be the case. The Phi 200 and the Sigma integrated do not provide that feature, although the manual biasing they would require from time to time can be performed more conveniently than in a lot of other designs. Do you think that a SS amp with a tube preamp will give me the 'sound' I am looking for? Engaging, warm, and magical? I guess I have to hear it for myself.There are always multiple paths to success in audio, including both tube power amp/solid state preamp combinations and tube preamp/solid state power amp combinations. There are also multiple paths to failure, of course. So, yes, there's no substitute for hearing it yourself. If you do eventually have an opportunity to audition a VAC amp with your Sabrinas, per one of my comments early in the thread make a point of checking for any signs of bass weakness, treble over-emphasis, or lack of power on brief high volume low frequency dynamic peaks (such as strong bass drum beats). As I indicated earlier, while I'm a big fan of VAC products, and in general I don't consider them to have any intrinsic weaknesses, I see those things as **possibly** being consequences of the interaction between their output impedance characteristics and the specific impedance characteristics of the Sabrina. Aside from that possible concern, and provided of course that its cost is acceptable to you, I would have high confidence that you would be very happy with the 200iq. Best regards, -- Al |
rinpoche, some brands are trashed just for the sake of sport on this site. If you want to feel better about your Wilsons, just read any McIntosh thread. Best of luck with your system build. One item I didn't see anyone mention on tube amps is that they really don't like to be powered down and right back up again. Just something to consider if your wife, kids, guests might have control over your rig while you're not around. I only brought this up because you mentioned tv/video use. |
Your words are very helpful. I appreciate that. I am not really an audiophile. But I LOVE listening to music on a great sound system. I am not sure why more women are not passionate about it too. Anyway, it is not the 'gear' per se that draws me but the sound that the gear produces. I was reading on another thread about the Sabrinas and it just seemed to get so personal and a bit hostile. Anyway, thank you for saying that. I don't have enough experience with too many other speakers to really be knowledgeable enough. But I have really enjoying listening to them and now want to pair them with a really good amp. That is my goal. I am back to being nervous about tubes — vs. SS — where this thread started. I am not sure if I am up to it? Do you think that a SS amp with a tube preamp will give me the 'sound' I am looking for? Engaging, warm, and magical? I guess I have to hear it for myself. That is what I am taking away from this thread. Bottom line, I need to meditate on this. |
Rinpoche 5-15-2016While there are of course many high end audio products that tend to be controversial and polarizing, my perception over the years has been that Wilson speakers tend to be a bit more polarizing than average. But as you’ll see in many threads here and elsewhere there are a great many highly experienced audiophiles who use and love them, and whose comments are the exact opposite of those you referred to. And it would seem to say something that Wilson has been among the most successful of high end speaker manufacturers for something like 40 years now. My suspicion is that significant contributing factors to that polarization of opinion are greater than average sensitivity of Wilson speakers to differences in ancillary equipment (especially the power amplifiers used to drive them), due to a combination of their impedance characteristics and their resolving power, and perhaps also greater than average sensitivity to room differences and setup. So although it is understandably unsettling to see the kind of negative comments you referred to, they are best ignored. Partly because there are at least as many and probably many more strongly positive comments that can be found, but much more importantly because all that really matters to each of us is our own satisfaction with our own system. Best regards, -- Al |
Don't underestimate the "work" necessary for tube power amplifiers! Tube enthusiast will tell you it's no big deal, but it's similar to when motorheads tell you manual transmissions aren't any more demanding than auto trans. Aging tubes, heat from tubes, matching and biasing tubes, tube rolling, turn on/off procedures, warm up times for optimum listening, etc. Experienced audiophiles tend to downplay these issues. I am not trying to discourage you, but you need to proceed with your eyes open. You've been offered some really good advice in this thread and I suspect that whatever way you'll go, you'll be very happy. Unfortunately, I think it will be the wrong decision. Rather than decide between tubes and solid state you could simply choose both. I've owned Rowland equipment for decades and think the company and products are first rate, but for the price of the Aeris and 625 you could buy a premium DAC, a solid state power amp and a tube power amp. Whenever the mood strikes you could switch from one power amp to the other and enjoy their respective benefits. To put some numbers to it, I'm talking about DACs in the $5k area and power amps in the $5-7k range. |
Opps = here's the link http://www.thetubestore.com/ |
Rinpoche,. Here's the link to the TubeStore (in Canada) so you can get a general idea of what it costs to replace the tube types (e.g. KT88) in amps. There's other sourcing options and brands (particuarly NOS - new old stock vs current production) aside form what TS offers, but thought since you stated that you are new to tubes it would give you something to look at if interested. Good luck with your decision; and happy listening |
Seems we are all agreed — VAC wins! I am feeling bad though because I was reading a thread that totally trashes Wilson speakers. I think the Sabrinas are really perfect in so many ways. I had to save space so they fit in really nicely. But the thread I read makes it seem as if people who purchase Wilson's have no soul. I am not sure why people disparage others for their choices, but in my mind they are really lovely. Maybe I could do better but there are limited funds (e.g., Raidho, Vandersteen, and so on) — this is a very expensive adventure. I appreciate all that you put into your set ups and so on. I haven't even begun to think about cables. And I am shy to say what I am using presently. I know I need a good interconnnect between the Aeris and amp + so if that is something you know about I would love to hear this too. |
Rinpoche, Just as I suspected the VAC tube magic has smitten you ☺☺. Biasing tubes is no big deal and VAC's are very reliable and steady in operation. Yes you'll have to replace tubes as they age (goes with the territory ). Pick the amplifier that in terms of musical fulfillment will make you feel the happiest over the long haul while listening to your music. You've used the term tube magic several times, I understand what you mean ☺ Charles, |
Thank you all. This has been very helpful and informative. I have learned a lot. My experience of listening to the JR 625 (upgrade) and the Aeris as well as the VAC was great. If I didn't have the VAC to listen to after I would be very happy with the JR equipment. And it is easier overall to work with (for film and TV). But, I think that the VAC had a little extra magic. I guess that is the tube vs. SS issue. Once I get all the costs and details of what it might cost each time I have to change the 4 main tubes, I will decide. I know I will be happy with either one, but if I go with the JR will I always be thinking "what would the VAC have been like?" And the first time I have to bias myself I will be thinking "should I have gone with the JR!" If these were the biggest problem one had in life, it would be amazing. Thank you all and if there are any other voices of wisdom I would love to hear. |
