Jazz for aficionados
Downbeat Magazine: December issue includes the 80th Readers Poll. :( Of the approx 30 entries under 'Jazz Album', I only own one. "The Art of Conversation" by Kenny Barron and Dave Holland. Amazing! I can only conclude that my music is disappearing fast. Several interesting and insightful articles, including those on Phil Woods and Hubert laws. I understand better why Woods was not on my radar for such a long time. Some promising news concerned the current crop of young up and coming Jazz musicians in New Orleans. "They play with their hearts and their heads" hmmmmmmmmmmm I hope that means something good. Tom Harrell's latest album "First Impressions", received a 5-star rating. The reviewer states that 6 of the 8 tracks were credited to Maurice Ravel or Claude Debussy!! WTF!?! This is, a Jazz publication?? All in all, an interesting, if somewhat depressing issue. But, not nearly as absurd as the infamous 'Playboy' poll. Cheers |
Here I am; and lets keep things interesting 😃 ****December issue includes the 80th Readers Poll. :( Of the approx 30 entries under 'Jazz Album', I only own one. "The Art of Conversation" by Kenny Barron and Dave Holland. Amazing! I can only conclude that my music is disappearing fast.**** Why do you come to that conclusion based on the fact that you onky own one? Have you heard the other 29? Start buying! 😛. It is true, however, that most of our favorites are dead. ****I understand better why Woods was not on my radar for such a long time.**** Please explain; genuinely interested. ****Some promising news concerned the current crop of young up and coming Jazz musicians in New Orleans. "They play with their hearts and their heads" hmmmmmmmmmmm I hope that means something good.**** Sorta contradicts first comment, no? ****Tom Harrell's latest album "First Impressions", received a 5-star rating. The reviewer states that 6 of the 8 tracks were credited to Maurice Ravel or Claude Debussy!! WTF!?! This is, a Jazz publication??**** Two words: Ellington "Nutcracker". Halten den guten kampf! And you thought Diana Krall was bad....there oughta be a law!: [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WzvgV4lILSc[/URL] Antidote: [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S-lHrDPjGfQ[/URL] |
Are you saying the OP has gone native on us? Maybe the aborigines invited him to dinner, and he misunderstood. Could he be, as we speak, in a big pot, water up to his chin? But our OP, would at least think of a Jazz tune appropriate for the situation. May I suggest, Lee Morgan's "The cooker". :) O-10, pouting time is over. Get yo self back in here. Cheers |
Ellington / Harrell Ellington has the stature, track record, and reputation to play anything, and it will be taken serious. Examined in detail. Discussed endlessly. Will become part of the Jazz Lexicon. No so for Harrell. Excellent Trumpet player / composer. But, Ellington is in an altogether different category. I have 'Nutcracker' by Ellington, simply because it was by Ellington. Otherwise, Peter Ilyich, will do just fine. Cheers |
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Sorta contradicts first comment, no?***** Not at all. The New Orleans thing just gives me hope for the future. Young players coming from New Orleans, are different from the young elsewhere in the Jazz world. Hard to escape the roots down there. The music is everywhere. They will be influenced. It is my thought, not a fact, that you could start out as a Jazz player in the North East, without any influence of, or any thought ever given to New Orleans. I hope I am wrong. Cheers |
Woods, my universe: He just seems to have developed and matured in a parallel / separate Jazz universe from the one in which I lived. This is surely not a criticism. That would be absurd. But, reading the piece, I only recognized one name in his story, Quincy Jones. Jones is the consummate musician. At home in any genre, but he never one of my favorite Jazz players. I think I have one CD by him. Had more LPs, in the 'Killer Joe' vein. He spent some time in Europe and formed a group called "The European Rhythm Machine. The odds of me buying or listening to a CD by a group called European Rhythm Machine, approached zero. This statement sums up why he never got my attention, this is after he went to Europe. "I sounded like I was let out of jail. The Europeans were much more aware of development in music than American musicians at that point.(1969). You were expected to be an artist and to experiment". Now, think of who was alive and playing in 1969. Going to Europe to improve in Jazz, is like a Kid from Brazil or Germany, coming to the U.S. to learn Soccer. My only point is this, he never played with the players I bought and followed. Even when he did, it was as a sideman, and at that stage in my music appreciation, I only paid attention to the leaders. And, that European experimental stuff, well, it is what it is. But, he is one of the few guys that made me look at the notes to see who was playing, as I listened to the CD. He was very, very good. And from all I have read, a very nice human being. Cheers |
Phil Woods was an icon for saxophone players; the consummate player. This is the third time I have posted this and don't know if anyone has watched it. A great peek into his life, the jazz life, his personality and some very interesting and funny accounts about everything from the business of jazz to being married to Chan, Bird's widow; priceless stuff: [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6SJxmCzYpoo[/URL] |
Early Phil as a leader: [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5xaEXLh213w[/URL] [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1UyUTP_IucQ[/URL] Later: [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FnsycHk8VBw[/URL] |
Yes, he was very good. I can see / hear why he was held in such high regard within the Professional Jazz community. I suspect he knew his N&Bs like few others. The last two clips were more to my liking. The three albums could represent the worst examples of Jazz LP Cover Art in history. Woods in front of a fireplace with a dog??? Is this one of the most gifted be-boppers ever, or Johnny Mathis? The Garland cover was like, they just used the closest photo at hand. Says nothing about what to expect inside. The cover is the first thing that should grab the buyer. The last clip, woods in a ski sweater. He even sounded more mature. But, this could have been the cover of a Boston Pops / Fielder Christmas LP. The playing on all was great. Esp the last two. But if I was browsing through Waterloo or Tower records, I would not pick up any of them to read the notes, unless I was already familiar with Woods. Another reason I may have missed him earlier in my Jazz journey. Of course this could all just be a reflection, a silly one at that, on my decision making in buying music. LP cover that makes you pick it up: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCRjn79DL74[/url] The arrogance of the man!! Thanks for the clips Cheers |
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This is the third time I have posted this and don't know if anyone has watched it.****** Then I have watched it three times. Funny guy. He does give insight into the professional musicians life. Esp when times are tough. "I have his wife, not his damn horn!! Priceless. He should be given the "Courage In Jazz Award" for standing down Mingus. That could have been a serious 'ruckus'.Mingus beat up a few of his band mates and was said to carry a gun. Not a guy to mess with. But I can picture the scene. :) Thanks for the third time. Cheers |
Agree about the album covers. Funny how a producer's vision may be so different from the player's; but some artists don't want to be bothered with things like cover art. But a cute white dog.....?! One of the best things in that whole clip (besides the playing) is the comment he makes when talking about which pop records he agreed to play on, and is such a great testament to his integrity as an artist. He could have taken every (very lucrative) solo recording gig offered or taken the attitude that he wouldn't play on ANY "pop" recordings; but instead chose to play on the ones that he "could contribute to". With Quincy's band in the 60's. A little "inside" info: in spite of how incredible he sounds, one can tell he's not happy with his reed (he talks about reeds in the masterclass clip). Notice how he wipes the reed at one point during the solo and as he takes his bow. He was a perfectionist and is pissed that the reed is "chirping". But, still sounds amazing. He improvised like the composer that he was. He had an uncanny ability to take a little melodic nugget and develop it and alter it in a very logical way while fitting the harmony of the tune beautifully to create a solo that could stand on its own as a composition, not just a bunch of notes. Beautiful stuff! [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PRyP5tIMR_E[/URL] This one's for O-10: [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLyHn3f7-9IUKfAC42v36Z5j0Nfodfe-LX&v=Zp3Nv33IHZ0[/URL] |
The Samson theme was wonderful. I remember seeing the movie a few centuries ago. I was a little kid punching tickets in the theater. Will never forget him bringing the Temple down! I hear a lot of talk about his Billy Joel solo. I will have to search it out. The Quincy clip seemed sort of bland. Not the playing, but the visual effect / body language. Almost like it was a recital. Is it possible that Jazz is sometimes better just heard and not seen? Thanks for the clips and info. Cheers |
Today's message from Jazz Heaven. Eric Dolphy -- OUTWARD BOUND And to think, at one time I considered this awesome great, a semi-noise maker. Stereo Review disagreed, so I bought him anyway. Another one I grew into. Looking back, I sometimes cringe at myself. I put his LPs right next to Burroughs' book, "Naked Lunch", on a Shelf labeled, 'Try again in a few years'. :) [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y8b1HAYEdU[/url] He died at 36, of a diabetic Coma, in Berlin. Another reason to stay out of Europe. People don't die of diabetes at 36. What could be the possible significance of a title like '245' ? Gotta mention Hubbard. Another great loss. This is as much his album as it is Eric's Cheers |
Great post. That's the whole idea; some music is challenging but very worthwhile and takes time to "get". ****And to think, at one time I considered this awesome great, a semi-noise maker.**** Heh, heh, heh! ☺️ 245: Actually, 2,4,5; and, even more accurately, II, IV, V in music nomenclature. It refers to a common chord progression in jazz. For example, in the key of C major the scale consists of C, D, E, F, G, A, B. C is 1, D is 2, E is 3, etc. The chord progression 245 is a chord progression consisting of a D (2) chord, an F (4) chord and a G (5) chord. Great record, btw. Hubbard was a truly a great loss; as was Dolphy. If I had to pick one trumpet solo as the greatest ever (a silly notion, but still...) it would have to be his solo on Oliver Nelson's "Stolen Moments" from "The Blues And The Abstract Truth". Coincidentally, (maybe not coincidentally) Dolphy is on this recording as well. [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLcJnGPHSdzd9HgCBYpZ7TAHQZg4v2Z9rX&v=I777BcgQL9o[/URL] |
More Manna from the Jazz gods. A good one from the most optimistic guy in Jazz. All his tunes could be sub-titled 'don't worry, everything is gonna be alright'. No brooding introspection here. The entire CD is good. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81LPHKdFR1I[/url] I like the way he talks to the audience before a lot of his tunes. Explains them to the audience. The Frogman of Be-Bop?? Loved the 'Bach" quip on 'dis here'. Cheers |
Boss Indeed!! [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vl4_f8Emtw[/url] If Ammons is great, then Ammons + Stitt must be mo' better Greater. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XT9XB9y_RU[/url] Cheers |
Great stuff! ****No brooding introspection here**** Funny, that's the very subject that has come up recently in conversation a few times with other music nuts. Specifically, how Cannonball, ironically and arguably, was a bad fit for Miles' "KOB". Cannonball is probably my favorite alto player in great part because of the "happy vibe" in his playing. There's a wonderful bouncy almost jovial vibe to everything that he played and in the context of "KOB"'s brooding introspection it seems a little out of place. IMO. "Jug":. What a tenor sound; love it! One of the interesting things I have noticed about his recordings is how he was almost always recorded with a pretty healthy amount of reverb on his sound. Would be interesting to find out wether that was his choice or the producers'. The pairing with Sonny Stitt is fabulous. Stitt recorded on both alto and tenor; but I think that in his "heart of hearts" he was an alto player. He plays on both instruments on that clip; first alto, followed by Jug on tenor, and then at 9:14 he plays again on tenor. Notice how he stays mostly in the upper registers of the tenor and has a lightness to his tone compared to Jug's more robust tenor sound. He plays the tenor like an alto player. Not a criticism at all, just an observation. Just this morning I heard this on WBGO and thought about the subject of "brooding introspection" and how, as much as like modern jazz, it is true that one element often missing in modern jazz and that we often hear in jazz from back in the day is that "happy vibe" that Cannonball had: [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLIvacmZCzEbC0G73i08xDbwXycf-895uI&v=2eYEY1xm60M[/URL] |
Today's Listen: Mario Bauza and his Afro-Cuban Jazz Orchestra -- TANGA This is so good it deserves two posts. There is a post of them Live in Japan, they even had the Japanese moving!! No small feat. Irresistible rhythms?? No problem with drums here. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t14FL8UwNkg[/url] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJaQ5d9hric[/url] Cheers |
Jimmie Lunceford: Love that Big Band Music. Ellington, Goodman, and Basie are all on my regular rotation. Back then you had to be able to play and also do song and dance routines. When the music changed, all the 'antics' went away with the old stuff. Just can't see Coltrane, Miles, et al participating in the singing and section choreography. But they made great music and put on a great show. Cheers |
James Carter -- JC ON THE SET I only two CDs by Carter. This one and ''The Real Quiet Storm'. This is his debut recording. It does not seem as if he has lived up to the initial hype, but who does. I enjoyed it. Everything seems to sound good to me lately. But, this is a very good performance. The group is comprised of younger / modern players. Carter has been known to leave the reservation and venture off into that Free stuff. The notes list him as playing 'Saxes'. Modern day Roland Kirk? When he hits those very low notes, he reminds me of the sounds put out by the spaceship in 'close encounters of a third kind'. Those aliens could Jam!! [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6m0N9ZHwqU[/url] [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz8cWbFNHUw[/url] Cheers |
****It does not seem as if he has lived up to the initial hype**** That pretty much sums it up for me re Carter. A VERY accomplished multireedist who, in spite of his forays "off the reservation" plays with a decidedly "retro" sensibility, especially on tenor. A very exuberant player with tons of energy. However, he is one of those players who's playing always makes me say "take it easy, take it easy", and leaves me feeling "so what?". I respect his ability a great deal, but don't much care for the music. But, that's just me. |
Ran across some New York Jazz Quartet today. Sounded really good. Shows there was more than fusion in the 70's. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwT3SU3a91g James Carter; I think as you both said has great talent, but I have trouble following, and this strangely from a guy who is fine with free jazz, What he is doing, He has to much pyrotechnics all at once. Frogman, I have been thinking about your discussion of why most jazz is not fun? What were the points and counter points of your previous discussion? It seems as most art matures it gets more serious. Do we through the discipline of practice, practice ,practice, beat the fun out of learning students? |
Music can be fun and serious at the same time. What music cannot be, is fun and boring at the same time. According to my Webster, Boring is an antonym of Fun. Modern Jazz is Boring. Why? Many reasons. Some, in no particular order: 1) Musicians think that if they can play an instrument, they can play Jazz. An extension of "Jazz is anything I say it is". 2) The idea that you can learn to play Jazz in Music school. You may improve your skills as a player, may learn theory of improvised playing, but you can't learn the feel for the music. 3) The commonly held belief that art must change with time, and that change is synonymous with better / improvement. 4) The belief that all improvised music is Jazz by definition. All Jazz may be improvised, but all improvised music is not Jazz. 5) The lack of an authority to define what is and what is not Jazz. That would be considered politically incorrect. If it's instrumental, and not R&R, then throw it in the Jazz bin. BTW, I have been pushing this point of view since this thread began. But who listens to me? Good question though. Cheers |
Interesting topic. But, just when I think that there is a more open minded (and correct) understanding of the topic, the apparent "progress" gets shot in the foot by the tendency to be absolutist about things. Acman3, good observations and questions about the topic of seriousness vs. fun in music. To be clear: I did not mean to imply that all modern music, or all music, is or should be "fun"; simply that I think modern music could stand a little more of it. I think you are correct in that more complexity tends to steer things into the "serious" camp; but not always and not necessarily. First example that came to mind is not generally considered Jazz at all but is both very serious and very fun: the music of a Frank Zappa. I think that Rok is correct when he says that music can be serious and fun. My agreement with Rok's comments on the subject ends there, however, and this is what I mean by the tendency to be absolutist and to make blanket statements. ****Modern Jazz is Boring.**** A blanket statement to be sure and a more incorrect one is probably not possible. ****Musicians think that if they can play an instrument, they can play Jazz. An extension of "Jazz is anything I say it is". **** With all due respect, a pretty ridiculous comment. I know more musicians (and very accomplished ones at that) that will be the first ones to admit that they can't play jazz, than musicians I know who DO know how to play Jazz. ****The idea that you can learn to play Jazz in Music school. You may improve your skills as a player, may learn theory of improvised playing, but you can't learn the feel for the music.**** Are we going to go there again? Jeez! ****The commonly held belief that art must change with time, and that change is synonymous with better / improvement.**** Who is it that holds that belief?! This is something that some on this thread keep bringing up. There is no such held belief!!! The issue is simply that some, myself included, don't believe that new art is necessarily worse or that old art is necessarily better. That is not the same as saying that it is better or an improvement. A red herring and a totally useless stance! ****The belief that all improvised music is Jazz by definition. All Jazz may be improvised, but all improvised music is not Jazz.**** Dont know who it is that holds that belief, but I agree with the premise. One out of five ain't bad, I guess. ****The lack of an authority to define what is and what is not Jazz. That would be considered politically incorrect. If it's instrumental, and not R&R, then throw it in the Jazz bin.**** Huh? ****BTW, I have been pushing this point of view since this thread began. But who listens to me**** Hah! Now we're getting somewhere. I am not much into political correctness (as I think you know) so feel free to declare yourself the "authority" 😊 on this subject; but, I am not looking for an authority, thank you very much. Speaking for myself, I'm going back to having fun now. |
Fun (and pretty serious): [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2lZrPnN46Qk[/URL] [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0hpcWPxBzpI[/URL] |
C'mon Rok, first of all it was said in jest (mostly). Now, look at your post again. You decry the "absence" of an authority, then you follow it by saying that your point of view has not been listened to. Can't have it both ways. ****If we were arguing this question is court, as opposing attorneys, YOUR Zappa clip would be MY 'exhibt #1". A 'smoking gun' if ever there was one. After playing it, the People would rest**** Segue time again (even if unintentional): Smoking gun perhaps, but that gun would probably blow up and fire backwards. The people do indeed rest. Did you know that Frank Zappa was invited to testify in Congress and express his objection to censorship and the importance of freedom in the arts? That alone makes him a pretty serious guy. Now, let's try to not get mired (again) in the silliness: I countered some your assertions and asked for facts; let's hear some substantive and provable rebuttals. |
Let's play (says the defense attorney 😠): ****Today's message from Jazz Heaven. Eric Dolphy -- OUTWARD BOUND And to think, at one time I considered this awesome great, a semi-noise maker. Stereo Review disagreed, so I bought him anyway. Another one I grew into. Looking back, I sometimes cringe at myself. I put his LPs right next to Burroughs' book, "Naked Lunch", on a Shelf labeled, 'Try again in a few years'. :)**** ....... hmmm, can't really add anything; it's really all there. James Carter: "modern" jazz by any standard. First question: if it's "boring" why post it? ****But, this is a very good performance**** - Rok Huh? "Your honor, please direct to witness to answer yes or no, and yes or no only!" |
You are confusing recently recorded with Modern. No one is saying every single note, or tune is boring, just the weight of the material. I own two(2) CDs by James Carter. I like the one I posted. I ran into Dolphy very early in my Jazz journey. I have no problem with Zappa or his music. The Arts should be a safe haven for eccentrics, weirdos, and all such marchers to a different tune. I just don't understand why they call it Jazz. My idea of Fun in Jazz: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m-ofRT3ni4[/url] The entire album is boss. BTW, how would you classify Mingus' 'hog calling blues'. My all time favorite. Cheers |
Before any discussion can begin with me and other "Aficionados", we must discern what is and what is not. Also, somewhere in between, what may or may not be. We'll use "Objective" and "Subjective" reality as a foundation for these discussions. Objective reality is one that exists independent of our minds; 2+2= 4, that's objective reality. Lee Morgan is the best trumpet player ever. That's subjective reality. This reality can only exist in the minds of those who say it is so. If I say I'm Napoleon Bonoparte, that can be my "subjective reality" and it's as real to me as any "objective reality". As you can see, there is a world that exists between "objective" and "subjective" reality. People in the nut house have their own reality, and when you discover that, it's pointless to argue with them. There are also jazz enthusiasts who lay claim to being the ultimate authority, (the ultimate "objective" authority) in regard to jazz. Since we are discussing a subjective genre of music, within a subjective universe (music), there can be no objective reality; consequently, anyone who lays claim to such a reality, is closest to those who have their own reality. The only thing I'm going to throw into this dogfight is my friend, the professional jazz musician who lived with me for an entire Summer and never practiced. Now there can be no doubt that when he wasn't sleeping, he was "practicing" in order to learn how to play his instrument. One does not get to play with many of the jazz musicians you have on record without knowing how to play their instrument, whatever it is. Since I'm not a musician, we never even talked about music; I was more interested in his life as a professional "jazz musician"; it was never dull. Now I realize why he never practiced. What was he going to practice? I had all of his records, and the music he played on stage was different than anything I had. He was practicing when he was on stage, and his music sounded better than anything I had on records. I don't believe that he knew what he was going to play. A top "jazz musician" is someone classical musicians like Learsfool don't believe exist; that's someone who simply lets the music that's in them come out; either you got it, or you no got it; but if you ain't got it, you can't get it; no matter how many schools you go to, or how much you practice. In regard to Hiromi, she's in a different universe, and her music shouldn't be compared with "jazz jazz". While I liked it, I don't think it should be judged by old standards. Enjoy the music. |
Uh, wow! There have been some very bizarre posts here today, to say the least. Frogman has done a pretty good job rebutting Rok's oddball post of his five points - one out of five ain't bad, as he said. Numbers 1 and 2 are both completely ridiculous. However, even more disconcerting was to read what O-10 suddenly posted, saying "A top "jazz musician" is someone classical musicians like Learsfool don't believe exist." WTF??!! What on earth are you referring to?? Certainly nothing I have ever said, on this board or elsewhere!! I am not at all sure I know what your point is, but the main point to be made about what I think you are saying about making music is that what you are saying is true of ALL musicians - no matter what genre or style they play. (That's a horrible sentence, but no time to edit, I'm off to play a show) And no one I know of has ever said it wasn't. So I honestly don't understand what you are even talking about, O-10, and I am beginning to share in Frogman's despair about ever being understood here......please explain? |
