Frogman and Rok, I disagree 300% with the both of you. What's wrong with this country is highly intelligent, college educated men going around with "sunshine glasses", when we have welfare for corporations, but nothing for the poor, that's economic injustice; however, I don't advise openly taking my view because "big brother" is watching and listening. Now back to our regular program; "speaking of sunshine", Charenee Wade brings me sunshine. "Ackman" originally brought this to my attention. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JabrQh5vql4Enjoy the music. |
O-10, hyperbole about the merits of Santeria dance is fairly innocuous and easily overlooked; hyperbole about issues that are relevant and crucial to a way of life so many in this country take for granted needs to be called out. Big Brother (whoever that is) can listen all he wants. As I get older I find I need to call out comments like "(we have) nothing for the poor". Imperfect and fraught with problems, yes; but, this country still offers more and more opportunity for the poor than just about any other. The real problem in this country is that so many view the wealth of some as what they don't have, instead of as what they could have; if wealth is a goal. As someone who has experienced and lived both sides of the coin, all I can say is "try the other side for a while, and then get back to me"
Happy Thanksgiving to all. |
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The Poor: The Bible says there will always be poor folks. This can be considered as a 'case closed' statement. Poverty is an important, even vital part of the Capitalistic system. It's to Capitalism, what Hell is, to religion. If the government and private groups were not helping the poor, there would not be so many of them. The U.S. is the most generous country on Earth. Government and People. Government Statistics say: (1) If you finish High School (2) Don't have any children out of wedlock (3) Don't have any children before age 20 You will not be poor. Not a very high bar for conduct at all. I guess these days we should add drug use. Now, you make the moral case, for the Government taking money from some people, and giving it to other able bodied people, because I can't. And, the welfare state has destroyed millions of families in this country. The consequences of which we see everyday in places like Chicago and ST Louis. My thoughts on Government help are sort of like the old blues song, you should have to be Blind, Crippled or Crazy. Cheers BTW, listened to this today. An artist that has been solely neglected on this thread. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-bGVsANv3g |
O-10, I am not about to engage in a protracted discussion of these issues on this thread. All I can say at this point about those clips is that propaganda takes many forms and that Bernie Sanders is a fool (which I already knew). Now, let's take a look at why this discussion got even this far. From someone who you have previously accused of "spreading discontent":
I make what I would consider a positive, optimistic comment about this country while acknowledging that there are still many problems and that mistakes have been made. Still, I consider it a great country in spite of those negatives. I also point to my feeling that Jazz (Coltrane's "Blue Trane" in particular) is one of its contributions and one of the reasons that it is a great country. You had three choices at that point: 1. You could have ignored my comment. 2. You could have acknowledged that, particularly now, during the Thanksgiving season, there is always room for a bit of positive outlook on just about any issue; or, 3. You could "disagree 300%" and take the issue into the realm of "injustice" and the condemnation of the "college educated". Obviously, you are free to take anyone of those choices; but, let's be clear: who is it that is spreading discontent? More importantly: where, exactly, is the disagreement?
I think it's fair to say that we would both agree that there are problems and that this country has made mistakes. I also think it's fair to say that Jazz, the subject of this thread, is one of this country's greatest artistic contributions. So, what is left? The idea that this is a great country. With all due respect, anyone who can't recognize that this country is, in spite of all its problems and ample room for improvement, a great country is, just like Bernie Sanders, foolish.
It is unfortunate that some will not have a Happy Thanksgiving as you suggest. Unfortunate, because there is always something to be thankful for.
Happy Thanksgiving. |
Sonny Rollins: fabulous!! And yes surprisingly neglected here. One of the few musicians who could pull off playing in a piano-less setting. Such is the command of the harmony and there is so much logic and clarity to the improvisation that it makes it easy to follow the harmonic progression of the tune without the piano to spell it out. His rhythmic authority is fantastic. Some musicians have the ability to play so "in the pocket" that the rhythm section plays to their rhythmic pull and not the other way around. Louis Armstrong had it, Ray Charles had it and Sonny Rollins has it. |
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Btw, you made an interesting commnent in a recent post about how you feel drum or bass solos " interrupt the flow of the music". It is often true. Not because it's drums or bass per se, but because the players of those instruments have traditionally been almost exclusively in the role of time keeper and simply haven't developed as melodists. That has changed a lot in recent times as bass players became more facile and technically and harmonically more advanced. Remember the days when all a bass player could do was play a "walking bass" solo? Basically the same thing that they would do while keeping time for a horn norm piano player. Then they graduated to attempts at melodic solos and the results were often a lot of out of tune and even wrong notes; often painful to listen to. Btw, you made an interesting commnent in a recent post about how you feel drum or bass solos " interrupt the flow of the music". It is often true. Not because it's drums or bass per se, but because the players of those those instruments have traditionally been almost exclusively in the role of time keeper and simply haven't developed as melodists. That has changed a lot in recent times as bass players became more facile and technically and harmonically more advanced. Remember the days when all a bass player could do was play a "walking bass" solo; basically the same thing that would do while keeping time for a horn norm piano player. Then they graduated to attempts at melodic solos and the results were often a lot of out of tune and even wrong notes; often painful to listen to. Now we have virtuosic bass players who can improvise with the same technical facility as horn players. Same thing for drummers, but even more of a challenge since the drums are not a melody instrument. Btw, also why, as you pointed out, they were seldom band leaders. A band leader needs to have knowledge and command of the melody and harmony side of things and not just of rhythm in order to be effective as a leader. A restaurant which has a great chef is doomed if that chef, who can't add and subtract, tries to also be the book keeper. Some drummers (Max Roach) will actually tune their drums to specific pitches in order to bring melody to the drum solo. Speaking of musical flow, notice ,how the drum solo on your Rollins clip does not interrupt the flow; Pete La Roca was a fabulous drummer. Some favorite Sonny: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gActLqZZX68Check out the bass solo! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v4DTR0I7xhA |
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Happy Thanksgiving to Aficionados everywhere. Watching the parade from NYC. The Big Apple Looking Good!
*****how the drum solo on your Rollins clip does not interrupt the flow; Pete La Roca was a fabulous drummer. ******
I noticed this. I remember thinking when I heard the Rollins clip, "well that shoots my drum/bass thing to hell".
*****One of the few musicians who could pull off playing in a piano-less setting. *****
Does this mean he has to play more? He was playing almost non-stop.
Thanks for all the Music info.
Cheers |
*****Then they graduated to attempts at melodic solos and the results were often a lot of out of tune and even wrong notes******
You have no idea how glad I am to hear you say this. I thought some how, I was lacking in appreciation.
Cheer |
O-10:
Your reading assignment -- Ayn Rand.
Cheers |
Thanks for the good wishes O-10; ditto. |
****Does this mean he has to play more? He was playing almost non-stop.****
Not necessarily. It is possible to achieve the same thing with very economical use of notes. It's about choosing the right notes in an extremely logical and creative way to create a solo that is, at once, melodic and outlines the harmony of of the tune. That's the art and genius of players like Sonny. I'm sure he could do it with few notes, but the guy obviously has a lot to say 😎 |
Speaking of Bass Players. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C154ptSqPooA reviewer years ago, said I had to have this. He was right! I love this. I won't call it Jazz, remembering the 'Buena Vista Ruckus'. The prudent thing to do, is to refer and defer to The Frogman. Cheers I wish the Blue Note method of listing the personnel and instrument played, had been standardized across all record labels. |
Our house is the one with the big turkey and the feast. That's been going on so long that those who were kids have teenagers of their own whose names I can't remember. When I meet one face to face, I'll mumble what I think is their name, and they'll smile, but I also detect a grin at a private joke (he can't remember my name).
In regard to political issues, this gathering is no different from this forum; we don't agree, but we knew that before they came, although this is only since Obama was elected.
The very best thing about this Thanksgiving is: after I said the blessing, I found a comfortable spot outside all traffic lanes, and stayed there the entire evening, while guests made themselves at home, and to my amazement they had no problem with that.
We'll look to Frogman for musical direction.
Enjoy the music.
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"Segue" - (in music) to proceed without pause from one musical theme or
number to another.
- A smooth transition.
Given recent commentary and the main topic of this thread, the Cachao "Master Sessions" clip is probably as perfect a segue as is possible.
Cachao (Israel Lopez), along with Lecuona, Brauer, More, D'Rivera to name a few, is one of the names that one thinks of when one thinks about Cuban music. Of the same stature in that music as Gershwin, Parker, etc. are in American music. A brilliant classically trained bassist from a family of bassists (!), he was also a composer of over 3000 pieces in the traditional Cuban "danzon" style which is the style most represented in this recording "Master Sessions Vol. 1". Importantly, he was responsible for the creation of the popular "mambo" style; similar to danzon, but at a slower tempo. The importance of Cachao in Cuban music is huge.
I don't mean to bring up the subject of politics again, and apologies for doing so, but Rok's perfect segue makes it almost impossible to not point out that Cachao left Cuba for the USA in order to escape the oppression of an ideology that is, in many respects, the ultimate expression of the opposite of the debated "greatness" of the USA. He is an outspoken critic of that ideology which while professing to want to help the poor, completely controls their lives, denies freedom of speech (and much worse), and keeps them in an equal (ity), but decidedly needy and deprived state; certainly as compared to what the "poor" experience in this country. Enough of that and back to music.
"Master Sessions Vol. 1". Love that record and have owned it since its release and its award of a Grammy. It not only covers many of the traditional styles of Cuban music, especially "danzon", which shaped what modern Cuban music (salsa, timba) is today, but is a great example of the breadth of Cachao's musical persona with elements of the traditional, of Classical music (intro to "Lluvia"), a bit of the modern, and features some fabulous playing. Is it Jazz? Not in the usual sense. If the question must be asked, I would say the answer is in another question: Is Ragtime jazz? If we can call modern Cuban music "Latin Jazz" then I think the Ragtime question applies. From a chronological standpoint and looking at all the styles that shaped what we now can agree is (American) "Jazz", then yes it's Latin Jazz. There is certainly a lot of improvisation in the instrumental solos and in the vocal call-and-response. Ultimately, the label doesn't matter; great music it is. For an interesting, subtle, but very telling example of how jazz and the tradition of this music come together listen to the horn solos on "Mi Guajira". The trumpet and trombone players are clearly more steeped in the traditional Cuban style of phrasing, less "swing" (in the usual sense) and an almost conversational style, while the tenor player's style, from his tone to the bending of notes suggests a leaning toward the Jazz side of things.
Great clip. Thanks! |
Frogman, there is a lot more "justice" now than there was before the revolution. |
Cachao:
I agree, call it what you will, it's great playing and beautiful music.
Cuba:
I think some people find it hard, to see such a beautiful tropical paradise like Cuba, as a deadly Stalinist dictatorship, but that's exactly what it is. As bad as any in the former Eastern European communist bloc. Castro's flamboyant personality, the diversity of the people, the Cuban Musical scene, and their love of Baseball, are big reasons for this misconception. As strange as this might seem.
But, I am confident, relations with the U.S., will be the beginning of the regime's downfall.
Cheers |
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Catching up on some musical offerings.
Dizzy Gillespie "Duets": Nice! Dizzy and two of my favorite tenor players; Stitt and Rollins. What could possibly go wrong? Just for fun and not a criticism at all since its a pretty common thing: I would bet my copy of Miles "Kind of....." Wait! I already have that set aside for previous bets 😉. How about Oliver Nelson "Blues ATAT"? My original Impulse copy to bet that the inclusion of "Haut Bon" cut for Dizzy's "Duets" record went something like this: Nearing the end of the session and the producer says: "We're a little short of material; how about a blues". Ray Bryant starts tinkling that repeated little theme on the piano in the key of G and the other players join in. Tape is rolling. Basically a jam for filler. Great stuff 'though. For even more fun: the picture of the record cover is a little misleading. The title of the record is "Duets" yet the picture shows Dizzy playing with both Sonny's. Can anyone tell which of the Sonny's plays on the clip?
Cuban music clips: Great! I love this stuff. Close to home and most of it on those clips is the real deal.
Shankar: Not my cup of tea. She sure is pretty and she is definitely capitalizing on that fact in her performance. Not a fan of this type of watered down ethnic music. In this case it's neither Flamenco nor Indian Classical. Not that I don't like fusion; I do. I just don't think this is very good. Certainly pleasant, but not very good. I think it's fair to say that of the two female Shankar siblings, Norah is the talent. How many times can she play the same lick on the sitar? Jeez! |
******Can anyone tell which of the Sonny's plays on the clip?***** Rok says "I can", (as he sheepishly raises his hand). I youtubed it, and all was revealed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPFcP1oRmcsGreat tune. Drums and bass very prominent. :) Cheers |
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The great thing about jazz is that no matter how many times you have heard certain records, they can still stand "one mo listen"; that's the case with "Haute Mon" duets. Another album is "Soul Brothers": Ray Charles – piano, electric piano, alto saxophone Milt Jackson – piano, vibraphone Billy Mitchell – tenor saxophone Connie Kay – drums Oscar Pettiford – bass Skeeter Best – guitar Kenny Burrell – guitar But with a cast like that, what could go wrong; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUnID70IU-gEnjoy the music. |
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There was a time when the pop tunes of the day were either in a jazz style or were taken by jazz players and turned into jazz standards. Here is a modern pop tune done as a jazz instrumental. It is a staple of WBGO's playlist. Wonderful time feel and always puts a smile on my face. Love it! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WqEweV0eScg |
An interesting side note in the Cachao story was that the Master Sessions recordings were initiated by Cuban actor Andy Garcia when he was made aware of the fact that this legendary musician had been reduced to playing weddings and quinceneras (Cuban sweet 15 parties)in Miami. The records were literally life-savers for Maestro Cachao. For the more musically adventurous, Cachao's nephew; Orlando 'Cachaito' Lopez, bassist on the Buena Vista sessions, made a wonderfully contemporary, eclectic, and hip record simply called 'Cachaito' that's worth seeking out. |
Rok, and Frogman, I did volunteer work for Larry Rice at his big homeless shelter right here in St. Louis. I helped put up the TV station. There were very few "normal" people at that big shelter. It was composed primarily of winos, and people who should have been in a mental institution, normal people who had fallen on hard times were in and out. That I believe was in 85. Now, 90% of the people in shelters seem "normal" and some even better educated; that's not at all normal.
I posted this to let you guys know that I'm repressing my opinion of what you think about this subject, not to start a new conversation.
Enjoy the music.
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Thanks Chazro. Cachao is truly an icon and his plight one of the many stories about the tragedy of the Cuba story. |
Consider what kind of talent, fortitude and sense of self inspires a sixteen year old, black, gay young man, in 1933, to compose a song like this. Today is Billy Strayhorn's birthday and I can't think of a more beautiful and inspired song than this. If this is not yet more proof that this music (jazz) is just as serious as any other, I don't what is: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7d6_LUDa_ZwA favorite version with fantastic orchestral arrangement: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hGRKWG6Y08w |
*****I posted this to let you guys know that I'm repressing my opinion of what you think about this subject, *****
That's what is known as self-censorship. I look forward to hearing your repressed thoughts on the matter.
Cheers |
Actually, I would call it self indulgent and passive aggressive. To announce one's self censorship of an acknowledged disagreement is the same as being outspoken about it; and, in fact, even more provocative. So, O-10, by all means, let it rip. How'd you like the Nancy Wilson clip? |
O-10, I 'll bite. Education today, does not teach marketable skills. If people learn a skill and they have the ability to use their education they have a great advantage on a person without an education, most of the time. A welder , electrician, computer geek who can manage a business is going to be ok, but a manager with no other skill is at other peoples mercy.
Also, we as parents have not done a good job of teaching our children the skills we know and were taught by our parents. What a shame.
It seems we now have more educated people with no skills, so your guess of a more educated homeless group makes sense to me.
In the past 30 years, I have seen the workplace go from having such a strong pool of workers, we could keep the best and let the others find another calling, to today, having to keep everyone we can find, and letting our performance slide, due to such a poor workforce. That's the problem.
But, the good news is that there are jobs for even marginally qualified people. They just have to find them and work hard and smart to succeed .
IMHO |
Lush Life:
I liked the Nancy Wilson Version Best. Has nothing with her being a Stone Fox. The song just seems better suited to being sung by a woman. This has to be one of the most recorded of all jazz tunes. Surprisingly, its not on The Duke Ellington Disc, 'and his mother called him Bill'. "Blood Count'" was.
I have 2 CDs titled 'Lush Life', by Coltrane and Joe Henderson. How much of Ellington was Strayhorn?
Cheers |
*****If this is not yet more proof that this music (jazz) is just as serious as any other, I don't what is:*****
Much more serious than most.
Cheers |
Dizzy:
I really need to get more familiar with the founders of be-bop, both Dizzy and Bird. They sound a lot better than I thought.
Whenever I see Dizzy I think 'Cubano be, Cubano bop'. which has to be one of the greatest titles in Jazz. He looks like his name should be, be-bop
Cheers |
Frogman, I liked "Never Let Me Go" better than lush life, too much "fluff" in the music at the beginning, but since her voice had that diamond sparkle of youth it still sounded good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy4YvDBGRo0Enjoy the music. |
Just discovered this thread everyone. The Buena visita social club album blew my mind. I actually will attempt to visit Cuba next year. When I heard the album. The guys play their instruments with so much emotion that I was amazed. The instruments and the players are one! |
Consider what kind of talent, fortitude and sense of self inspires a sixteen year old, black, gay young man, in 1933, to compose a song like this. Today is Billy Strayhorn's birthday and I can't think of a more beautiful and inspired song than this. If this is not yet more proof that this music (jazz) is just as serious as any other, I don't what is: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7d6_LUDa_ZwA favorite version with fantastic orchestral arrangement: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hGRKWG6Y08w |
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****How much of Ellington was Strayhorn****
One of the perennial and most interesting questions among jazz lovers. For the answer, I suppose one need look no further than the simple fact that Ellington's signature tune "Take The A Train" was composed by Strayhorn. In fact it's more complicated than that. Ellington considered Strayhorn his "right arm" and, while he did publicly give give him credit, he also took credit that rightly belonged to Strayhorn. Ellington was the leader and had the vision for the band and the music; Strayhorn contributed a lot of the composing and arranging skill. |
****He looks like his name should be, be bop****
Definitely!😎 |
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Schubert, I came to the same conclusion in regard to poverty and homelessness and the "Goners"; it's a waste of time. |
Rok, that Benny Carter recording is fabulous. I was not aware of its existence and features some of my favorite players. Benny Carter was an amazing musician. Not only was he a great alto stylist, he was also a terrific trumpet player and arranger. Thanks for that.
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Pulled this one off the shelf today. The Miles we all know and Love. As The Frogman might say, with a line-up like this, what could possibly go wrong? Answer; not a thing. He recorded more than 'Kind of Blue'. i know, I know, it's hard to believe. Total playing time a little over 46 minutes. Shorter than some of Coltrane's solos. :) [url] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUGkPo2N7jM[/url] One of the tunes is by Gershwin. Did he ever write music for Jazz Band or small group Jazz? I know a lot of his stuff is played, but I am not sure if any was written esp for Jazz band. Did he ever play Jazz? Listening to American in Paris, Rhapsody in Blue, and Porgy and Bess, you can tell he had the talent to do. Benny Carter: Another one we have neglected. Cheers |
O-10, if by "waste of time" you mean converting me to your point of view then you're probably correct. However, if, as I had hoped, you mean having respectful, mature and intelligent discourse and exchange of ideas even if there is disagreement, then it would not be. You insist on distorting what the thrust of my initial statement on the subject was. I am visiting this issue once again because you don't seem to be able to let it go and continue to insinuate what many that share your point of view often do; that they have a monopoly on compassion . Nothing could be further from the truth. The only disagreement is in what the best course of action for a viable solution might be; nothing more. I will try it one more time:
I agree with you that some people need the social safety nets that, by your own admission, already exist. Wether more can or should be done can be debated and I do think that better and smarter use of resources can be done. However, history shows that simply throwing more tax payer money at the problem is seldom the way at a solution. As in music, relying solely on an "emotional reaction" instead of a more pragmatic understanding will seldom yield good results. My initial and optimistic comment was simply that this country is, in spite of its problems and shortcomings, is a great country. To not be able to acknowledge the largess of this country and the fact that opportunity exists for those willing to work hard is what is, in fact, "having the blinders on". Ironically, the very clips you posted demonstrate how blinded by ideology someone can be. It is almost laughable to use the testimony of an out of work aspiring beauty queen wearing expensive jewelry and a $300 haircut to try to make your point and in another clip the very person who is asked how he found himself in that predicament admits "probably because of all the mistakes that I made". Should there be no consequences for bad choices and mistakes?
While I admire your passion for this issue, I am not sure you understand just how provocative and skewed you come across in some of your commentary on this topic. I ask that if I ever contact you privately about a matter that you don't take the liberty of posting my opinions on a public forum in order to buttress your point of view.
A "Goner".
BTW, re "Con Alma": there are probably dozens of big band versions of the tune. The clip you posted is a big band version of the tune; not THE big band version. |
Rok, re Gershwiin: you mention Rhapsody In Blue. The original version is referred to as the "original Jazz band version". Written for the Paul Whiteman band which was considered a jazz band at the time; although there was not much improvisation in that band.
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Today is the great Jaco Pastorius' birthday; another amazing musician who passed way too soon. We recently commented on bass players and how far they have come in their ability to improvise on the same level as horn or piano players. By the time Jaco came on the scene the level of bass playing virtuosity had already reached new heights, but it was Jaco who blew it wide open for electric bass players; and, he did it with the fretless electric bass which contributed to his unique sound while posing an even greater technical challenge than the fretted bass. He had the ability to create amazing grooves and rhythmic propulsion. Check this out and how the rhythm section simmers with groove. And how often does one hear jazz on the piccolo? Hubert Laws is amazing: [URL] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hvrFXJncjOk[/URL] |
