Jazz for aficionados

Rok, this was to be a post before yours re O-10's return (I was not able to post it because I was somewhere without Internet connection):

"Rok, nicely done; it worked 😉"

The OP is well known for his empathy for foreign-born noise makers.

Cheers

Learsfool, Acman3 and the OP all out of hibernation on one day.   Must be Global warming.

Cheers

OP's Post:

Thanks for clearing that up. :)  I suggest we forget the 'reality' stuff, and stick with 'opinion'.   I think that would be more appropriate for our discussions.

Cheers

****Learsfool, Acman3 and the OP all out of hibernation on one day. Must be Global warming.****

That's actually very funny; as long as we can keep finding humor in all this, I think we'll be alright.

****I suggest we forget the 'reality' stuff, and stick with 'opinion'. I think that would be more appropriate for our discussions.****

Not possible; certainly not all of the time.  Allow me to explain why:

This business of subjective vs objective keeps coming up and continues to be misunderstood and misused.  Misused, because it is used as a fallback position when there is disagreement that is backed up by a provable reality.   To use O-10's example:

One can have the opinion that Lee Morgan was the world's greatest trumpet player.  Someone else can disagree, but there is no way that person could disagree that he was great.  Why?  Because the key point in this argument is always missed: that when judging the relative merit of art one needs to use both objective AND subjective criteria.  I may not agree that Morgan was the greatest because I may prefer the style of some other trumpet player or feel that someone else is a better technician, but if one has a fairly complete understanding of what it takes to do what Morgan did with a trumpet, both technically and stylistically, there is no way to dispute his greatness.  Put a different way:

Listener A can post a clip of a jazz trio and proclaim it great.  Listener B disagrees because he can point to provable and demonstrable problems with the playing such as out of tune playing, bad rhythm and amateurish improvisation.  This is not simply opinion, these (especially the first two) are demonstrable via the use of recognized standards within the art world.  Out of tune is out of tune, if someone is playing with bad rhythm, simply because any given listener doesn't have the capabillity to discern it or does not understand those standards does not make it less of a reality.  Still, lets really stretch and be very "politically correct" (aargh) and not judge any listener's discernment or lack thereof:  If listener B can discern these problems, describes the problems and deems them "deal breakers" for him, this is not simply opinion.  So, fine, anyone can choose to keep someone else's disagreement in the realm of opinion, but why isn't the dissenting voice entitled to consider it fact? 

The biggest shame in this endless debate is that what gets missed is the idea that there is always much to learn and more and more layers to understand; no matter what level of understanding anyone already has. 

****You are confusing recently recorded with Modern. No one is saying every single note, or tune is boring, just the weight of the material.****

i dont think so.  As you have pointed out, words matter.  Your comment was "Modern jazz is boring".  Why, then, not say: "some (or most) modern jazz is boring".  There is that absolutism mucking up the works again.

****I have no problem with Zappa or his music. The Arts should be a safe haven for eccentrics, weirdos, and all such marchers to a different tune. I just don't understand why they call it Jazz.****

****BTW, how would you classify Mingus' 'hog calling blues'. My all time favorite. ****

Agree with the first commnet.  I will tell you that I have heard/read Zappa reffered to as a rock musician far more than as a jazz musician, so who is it that calls it jazz?

Mingus:  I would call it great music.  I don't much care to classify it.  What does that prove really, if one thinks about it? I think all this goes back to what is really important and what I tried explain in my previous post: it's really knowing how to identify really good music making that matters most.  We all tend to have favorite styles and genres.  Time and time again I have seen music posted on this thread that fits into a poster's favorite style and it seems that simply by that virtue alone that posted music gets automatically bumped up to "good" in that poster's mind when it is simply mediocre or worse.  It really is true:  "there are only two kinds of music, good and bad".  

What the sage person who made that famous comment implied and, for the sake of this thread 😏, should have added in order to make it absolutely clear is: "there are......, regardless of genre".

***** Agree with the first commnet.  I will tell you that I have heard/read Zappa reffered to as a rock musician far more than as a jazz musician, so who is it that calls it jazz?*****


"Zappa is the first, and so far only, artist to be inducted into both the Jazz and Rock and Roll Halls of Fame." -- google

Apparently someone calls it Jazz.   Esp since he went into the Jazz hall first.  Think of the players who are NOT in the Jazz Hall of Fame.

But this goes back to what I said, and to which you responded "huh?"  They say his music was hard to categorize, so into the Jazz bin it goes.  The catch-all dumping bin.  My point is, it Just shows a lack of respect for, and understanding of,  the music.

Cheers

***** Mingus:  I would call it great music.  I don't much care to classify it.  What does that prove really, if one thinks about it?*****

Not trying to prove anything, but since we were talking about 'modern' Jazz, just wondered if a tune like 'Hog Calling' was an example of Modern Jazz.

***** I think all this goes back to what is really important and what I tried explain in my previous post: it's really knowing how to identify really good music making that matters most. *****

This is not what matters most.  Identifying and sharing music that a person likes, or even dislikes, is what matters most.


Good vs Bad music:

Ravel said "there is no music there' referring to his composition 'Bolero'.   I'll admit it did cause riots in Paris.  People took their music a little more serious back then. :)
Tchaikovsky didn't think much of '1812'.   I think he said he was sorry he wrote it.

So, sometimes, declaring music bad, for whatever reason,  could be just one person's opinion.  Even if that person composed it!!  The great unwashed may beg to disagree.

The Bey Sisters being prime examples, on this thread,  of how greatness can be trashed, in  the name of technical correctness. :)

Cheers

*****  Time and time again I have seen music posted on this thread that fits into a poster's favorite style and it seems that simply by that virtue alone that posted music gets automatically bumped up to "good" in that poster's mind when it is simply mediocre or worse.****

Some examples would be nice.

Cheers

*****   It really is true:  "there are only two kinds of music, good and bad".  *****

In the ear of the listener,  this is absolutely true.   And I think this is what the quote means.   There is no definitive 'list' of the good and bad.

Cheers

Rok, I forgot to include, "The Frogman's Reality", and you forgot to include "The Frogman's Kind of Music"; now I guess you want to know what I mean by that. Since I'm not quite sure, you'll have to discern for your self.

Frogman speaks "MUSIC", and that's a language I never took; hear tell they taught it at Julee Yard, that's that school in New York where them classical musicians go to. My huntin dog perks his ears up when Frogman speaks. Did I tell about Mutt? He's my huntin dog that I read to, and I always tell him, "This is what Frogman said", and his ears perk right up; when Frogman speaks, he listens.





Enjoy the music.

We are lucky to have The Frogman on this thread.  He is a professional Jazz and Classical Player.   And I do know that making a living as a Musician is not an easy thing to do.   Esp in a place like NYC, where the entire world is trying to make a career in music.. If he was not very, very good, he would not work.   No room there for 'pretty good'.

Therefore:  EVERYTHING The frogman says about music is true.  We can place more or less emphasis on things as pertains to our own taste in music, but what he says is Gospel.

If he says a group is out of tune, then, they are out of tune.  If you like them in spite of that, that's cool.   That's your right to like music that appeals to you.  We all have that right.

We are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts.  That's why I don't think the term 'reality' is appropriate.  Reality means 'real', which to me, means FACTUAL.  

 We can't have differences of FACT over who is the best  Jazz Trumpet.  We can never know the Best.   We can just give our opinion.   AND, opinions is order to be valid, have to be in the realm of the possible.  You say Morgan, he says Hubbard, and I say Armstrong.  All are within the realm of the possible.  They are all valid opinions.

Naming some guy who plays locally in a club, is not a valid opinion.

And let's remember this is the season of:
Peace on Earth, Good Will towards all Aficionados

Cheers

Rok, Reality is the conjectured state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined. In a wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has been, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible.

The quality or state of being actual or true. The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence. That which exists objectively and in fact.

music is: the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity. b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony.

Jazz is: American music developed especially from ragtime and blues and characterized by propulsive syncopated rhythms, polyphonic ensemble playing, varying degrees of improvisation, and often deliberate distortions of pitch and timbre.

Well Rok, there you have it.

Hi O-10 - I must say, that is a very interesting definition of jazz, and I would like to hear what the Frogman thinks of it.  

The definition of music is a very basic and good one, too.  I am constantly telling my private horn students that music is the creation of sound in time - the time aspect being as important as the sound aspect, as it is the time (meter and rhythm) that gives the sound a framework, and makes it make sense to the listener.   

This leads to another point that I think has to do with the subject of your post I was objecting to (and by the way, have you explained what point you were trying to make?  If so, I haven't seen it, though I am not 100% certain I am seeing everything in this new forum format):  

When we are discussing heart, or feeling, in music making - it is very important to remember that although this is obviously an essential, it is not the sole essential thing.  One can have all the heart and soul in the world; however, if one cannot express it, because of whatever deficiencies of technique, or an inability to play in time, or an inability to create the right sound, or play in the appropriate style, to name some examples, then one will not really be a good musician.   It is quite possible to have a huge heart and soul, yet not have any real MUSICAL feeling.  All of us musicians have had students like this, and they are sometimes the most frustrating ones, as they have the passion, but not the ability.  One must be able to create good sounds, in time - these qualities are just as important as the heart and soul in the making of music.   That's where the technique, etc. comes in.  

Of course, the reverse example is also true.  Someone can have incredible technique, and fantastic time, but not be a very expressive player.  There are many professional musicians fitting that description, unfortunately, but there are a great many more students who never do win an orchestral audition or regularly get hired to play in jazz clubs, and they have no idea why, because they know they can play their instrument really well.  In fact, this is perhaps more true today than it has been in the past, since the technical standards for every instrument have now risen so high, especially in classical world, but also in the jazz world as well.  The kids coming out of school today have so much more technique than even 25 years ago - but it has come at the expense of other important aspects of music making in general, like learning to phrase really well, to name one aspect important to all genres.  

OK, I'll shut up for now.  

Rok, I think you need to put the spiked eggnog away now 😜.

[URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw9M6cNHO9g[/URL]

O-10, this one's for Mutt:

[URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo8EvrzsUL8[/URL]

And tell him that I'm glad at least someone at the O-cienda has some sense.

Learsfool, excellent post!

Learsfool, that statement you're referring to, was made in jest more or less, but it was in regard to "improvisation". Actually I witnessed shows that were improvised night after night, and I found it unbelievable.

Equally unbelievable are "pit musicians". Beyond the fact that each musician played several different musical instruments, was how they played written music that sounded like improvised jazz; that boggled my mind; and I forgot, this music had to correspond with action going on, in a play on stage.

Could you elaborate on these musicians?





Enjoy the music.

Frogman, me and Mutt watched dog videos until I went to sleep. Here's something I put on this morning that you might like.



              [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcf455NwMOY[/url]



What I like best about this CD is the continuity.






Enjoy the music.

Learsfool. there are a number of Korean string players in the Twin Cities groups ,notably in the St Paul Chamber band.
It is hard to believe how good they are. The SPCO has two young lady viola players that are the best string players I've ever heard.
Any clue on whats up in Korea ?

The back and forth about what music is has less to do with what it is than what one believes ,consciously or unconsciously ,  the purpose of music is .

Schubert, you're really on to something there. I was going on and on, talking to my minister, and using the phrase "The reality is.........."; and after patiently listening, he responded "Orpheus, there are many realities". Indicating when we look at the same thing, we don't necessarily see the same thing, and whatever the thing is, it's our relation to the thing, that gives us our "reality"; hence there are many realities.

While we know what we're talking about, that should keep everyone else confused; but that's their "reality".





Enjoy the music and the holiday.

Thanks O-10 !.
Same to you and to all  !

Don't mean to answer Schubert's question to Learsfool, so I will leave the issue of string players to him.  I will say, however, that I have been on tour to Korea twice; in 1997 and one year ago in 2014.  The positive change in the country during those 17 years has been extraordinary.  Living standard appears to have improved dramatically.  There is a level of order, efficiency and attention to detail in just about every aspect of life that is amazing.  Tech savviness of the general population puts even this country to shame and there is a sense that the country as a whole is on a mission.

Speaking of Jazz , listening to my fav Christmas CD, Mel Torme Christmas Songs on Telarc.
Jazzy, classy and a real pleasure to hear, old carols jazzed up a tad in a refined and respectful way by a true musician .

More I listen to Mel the more I think  Kurt Elling took Mel's Phrasing 101 Class .

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfgNR_aiSTg[/url]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk_XApCBcnY[/url]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mP9T8BQ_bQ[/url]

Cheers

rok2id, Were you in combat with the Ist Cav ?

Hi O-10.  Well, I am sorry that I took a jest so seriously, then, though I confess I still am not sure what you were referring to.  To answer your question on pit musicians being unbelievable:  really the only thing very different about some of them is that some of them, usually woodwind players, are performing on three or even more instruments. These players are called doublers, and they often specialize in that - they are just about all well-trained musicians who often play in free-lance orchestras on the side on whichever is their main instrument.  Frogman can speak to that even better than I, as he has actually done some of that.  Usually brass players don't tend to do that, though sometimes you might see a guy in a small jazz band playing on both trumpet and trombone.  
Otherwise, assuming you are speaking of Broadway show type pit musicians (technically opera and ballet orchestra members are also pit musicians - I have performed all of the above myself many times), this is actually almost the complete opposite of what a jazz musician's performance is.  The Broadway shows are very well rehearsed, and then played EXACTLY the same way night after night after night after night after night, etc., never changing - every solo is played exactly the same way every night, or complaints are made about it!!  The musicians have absolutely zero flexibility on interpretation.  Phantom is going to sound like Phantom every damn time, just like Budweiser tastes like Budweiser every damn time.  This is the main reason it sounds so polished.  I, for one, could never handle doing that night in and night out.  When I was free-lancing in the Bay area, I was one of the first call subs for Phantom, and the most I ever did at any one stretch was two weeks straight one time.  I almost went crazy.  Now I have also done opera tours that lasted for six to eight weeks, six shows a week, but luckily for me both times it was a Mozart opera that one could never get tired of, and they were double and triple cast, so there was some variety and flexibility in the performances.   In a Broadway production, the subs have to come in and play everything exactly the same way as the regulars do.  Often you are required to come sit in the pit for a couple of shows to observe before you actually get to sub just for this reason.  
I confess that I am not sure why you are blown away that something written out could sound improvised, though - that is not a hard thing to achieve at all.  Just about any symphonic pops show is full of many such examples - I have played such written out horn solos myself before in performance.  And usually when a symphony does a big band show or something similar, a lead trumpet player is brought in to do the solos, and the rest of us take our stylistic cues from him.  All professional musicians have very good ears for these kinds of things and will pick up on how to play in the right style almost immediately.  This is not to say that they will suddenly sound like the Ellington or Basie bands, of course, but you get the point.  
Also you must remember that anything being improvised on the spot in a jazz club cannot be TOO complicated, otherwise it almost certainly wouldn't work, unless it was perhaps done by a group that was used to playing together all the time, and knew each other's musical tendencies very very well.  And of course, as we have talked about before on this thread, the players all know the tune and the chord changes, so the melodic improvisation is taking place inside a very structured framework that all of the members of the group understand.  And even if they don't know the tune at all, if they have what they call a "fake book" that includes it, they can use it and get through the tune.  

Hi Schubert - as Frogman said, the progress the Asian countries in general have made with Western music is very impressive over the past few decades - it is not specific to Korea in particular (though my Korean sister-in-law would say they are the best, LOL!).  I think the same sort of discipline/work ethic that happens in their schools academically happens in their music teaching now.  

Another thing that their governments often do, especially in China and Hong Kong, is send students over here to study, paying for everything, with the understanding that the student is to return to that country and share the knowledge gained.  When I was in grad school in San Francisco at the Conservatory, there were many such students there, from all the Far East countries - many pianists, quite a few string players, and a trombone player.  All are now back in their home countries teaching others what they learned here, and sending students over here to do what they did.  

Learsfool, you went even farther than I was inferring to in regard to "imitating" improvised music. If this music was written out, do you think the classical musicians could play it, and make the music sound as though it wasn't faked?



        [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B83B1YiVcjE&list=PLUSRfoOcUe4aAPJ2Z2qXmrFfAN0GrCdBm[/url]



"Also you must remember that anything being improvised on the spot in a jazz club cannot be TOO complicated, otherwise it almost certainly wouldn't work, unless it was perhaps done by a group that was used to playing together all the time, and knew each other's musical tendencies very very well. And of course, as we have talked about before on this thread, the players all know the tune and the chord changes, so the melodic improvisation is taking place inside a very structured framework that all of the members of the group understand. And even if they don't know the tune at all, if they have what they call a "fake book" that includes it, they can use it and get through the tune."


The music I heard on a regular basis at jazz clubs was comparable to the music I've submitted on this post, and it was done by musicians in what you and Frogman called a "pick up band". In regard to "Too complicated", meaning comparable to the music I've submitted; I'll have to let you and others be the judge of that.

When "Monk" was queried what he thought was too many times about how to play something by a certain famous jazz musician, this was his response: "You a professional jazz musician, and you got a horn ain't cha". Meaning, blow the sucker, and it better come out right.

Although I was referring to a jazz musicians ability to improvise in my first post, I don't think I communicated this. (BTW, when is the last time you were at a jazz club?)






Enjoy the music.

 

Rok,


  "Naming some guy who plays locally in a club, is not a valid opinion."


Miles Davis was "Some guy who played locally in St. Louis", Clark Terry, was some guy who played locally in St. Louis. Grant Green, was some guy who played locally in St. Louis. You don't know it, but the the guy I was referring to was someone you raved about awhile ago.


So much for guys who played locally in St. Louis.





Enjoy the music.

***** Miles Davis was "Some guy who played locally in St. Louis", Clark Terry, was some guy who played locally in St. Louis. Grant Green, was some guy who played locally in St. Louis. *****


I said PLAYS, not PLAYED.

Besides, St. Louis is no longer St Louis.

Cheers

***** rok2id, Were you in combat with the Ist Cav ?*****

No. 

Since we can have Icons now, I just decided to insert the shoulder patches of the units I served with.   1st Cavalry Division was my last unit.  2nd Infantry Division (2id), my favorite.   Stay tuned.

Cheers

Learsfool, this was a play that had been made into a movie, and I had already seen the movie; that's why I was so fascinated by these guys down in the pit, where they were out of sight for the audience, because the audience looked over and past them, at the play.

Although they were referred to as "doublers", they may have up to eight instruments each. I just looked at what the reed section consisted of: Alto sax; Tenor sax; Clarinet; Flute;and Piccolo, plus an oboe.

Now this was a dramatic play, with dramatic changes, and those guys in the pit stayed glued to that sheet of music in front of them while they changed instruments. I'm impressed by a musician who can really play any instrument; I was doubly impressed by these musicians who could play a multiplicity of instruments, and never even look at the instrument they were playing. (I guess I'm easily impressed)

While they're playing, their music had to correspond with what was going on, on stage. I wonder how many "doublers" does Frogman know. Now I remember Frogman explaining that once. I was impressed then, and just the thought of what they were doing impresses me now.


Phantom Of The Opera (orchestration according to The Really Useful Group, the company that holds the license)
Woodwind 1 (Piccolo/Flute)
Woodwind 2 (Flute/Clarinet)
Woodwind 3 (Oboe/Cor Anglais)
Woodwind 4 (Eb Clarinet/Bb Clarinet/Bass Clarinet)
Woodwind 5 (Bassoon)
3 French Horns
2 Trumpets
Trombone
Percussionist
2 Keyboards
Harp
Violins (7 recommended)
Violas (2 recommended)
Cello (2 recommended)
Contrabass
Total: 27 Players





Enjoy the music.

rok2id, cool with me but I know others who did  that would take offense .

***** rok2id, cool with me but I know others who did  that would take offense******

How so?   Explain?

Learsfool,  Been thinking about what you and Frog said .My  hunch is using
my eyes more than my ears, is that the Koreans are always looking at each
other and try more than the American players to play and blend together as job #1 , the technical issues being a given
When two are playing alone in a part it seems like only one is ..

Only my hunch though .

rok2id, A lot of the guys I was with in the Ia Drang see it as an Icon not to be used unless you have blood in the game .
I don't agree but have seen violence over it .

Merry Christmas !

***** rok2id, A lot of the guys I was with in the Ia Drang see it as an Icon not to be used unless you have blood in the game .
I don't agree but have seen violence over it .*****

It's a Military Unit, not a motorcycle gang.  Not one 'owns' these colors.  It's fighting history is a lot more than Ia Drang or VietNam.   Read the history.

And that symbol is on everything you can imagine, in this town,  and  Ft Hood.  From the post water tower to the flag flying from the  pole in my front lawn. All with  pride.

BTW, The unit is now an Armoured Division.   You would not recognize it., or the current U.S. Army.  They are a lot better and smarter than they were in Nam.

Ia Drang is a very distance memory.  I think they have pics in the 1st Cavalry museum.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Cheers

US Army is what it always was , good soldiers led by incompetent careerists .

***** US Army is what it always was , good soldiers led by incompetent careerists*****

Damn Schubert, back in the day we would say, you have an attitude.

If you are speaking of  Officers, you don't know what you are talking about.  Politicians?  You may have a point.

Cheers

" There are no bad soldiers only bad Generals " Napoleon 
  90% of Officers ARE  politicians and I know exactly what I'm talking
  about in a manner no non-combat vet ever could .

Schubert and Rok, 
Does anybody remember Weapons Of Mass Destruction in Iraq? After you get through that one, I got another one for you.

***** " There are no bad soldiers only bad Generals " Napoleon*****


Did he say this before,  or after Waterloo?

0-10 no. I just remember the excuse for war before that the Tonkin Gulf incident which also never happened .

Rok, Frogman, and Schubert; this will take you to "Bird's best Bop"; which will lead into the documentary, "Celebrating Bird", that will go into a "Dexter Gordon Documentary"; all in all, this makes for a lot of music and entertainment.



                    [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B83B1YiVcjE&list=PLUSRfoOcUe4aAPJ2Z2qXmrFfAN0GrCdBm[/url]





Enjoy the music.

BTW, there are such things as Bad soldiers.   The Vietnam era US Army was full of them.  And as the war went on, they spread to Germany and Korea as well as bases in the U.S.

Even now when you see them on TV, they all go out of their way to look like bums and thugs.

Of course, McNamara's 100,000 had a lot to do with this.  That was when they allowed 100,000 guys that did not meet the minimum intelligence standards into the army.   The Marines and Air Force said, thanks, but no thanks.   It took many years to recover.

rok, Nappy said it during the battle as the "Old Guard " was in full retreat.


Sincere wishes for A Happy New Year