I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Hi O-10: here is your question: "If this music was written out, do you think the classical musicians could play it, and make the music sound as though it wasn't faked?"
I must admit to being a little puzzled here, especially by the second half of the question. If they are playing it, then it is not faked, so I really don't understand what you are asking there. The answer to the first part of the question is of course they would have the ability to play it! Again, I am puzzled as to why you think they might not??
What they would not have the ability to do is to improvise those notes on the spot like those musicians are doing. There is nothing that is played in that clip that would be beyond their technical ability by a long shot. They would of course not sound exactly the same as the musicians in the clip, but I don't think that is what you meant. They certainly wouldn't have the same "feel" as these musicians do, who play in that style all the time. They could imitate the style pretty well with practice, but you would be still be able to tell the difference. Sort of like you can almost always tell the difference between a native speaker of a language and one who has learned a lot about it but doesn't speak it very much. I think and hope this answers your question?? If not, please continue!
As far as the complexity of that music, it isn't very complex at all. Perhaps the speed and number of the notes is giving you the illusion that it is, but it is actually just a simple duet - in fact, the two soloists are almost never playing together. The beat is pretty simple and steady, as is the bass line and harmony. This is a big part of the reason the soloists can do what they are doing - the piece is a showcase for their technical and improvisatory talents. The rest of it is a very simple framework that they can play around in.
Just because someone is playing very fast does not necessarily mean it is particularly difficult, by the way. Let me use Kenny G as an example of this - most of the crap he plays is just noodling around on very simple patterns, very fast, and he is miked so much that he doesn't actually have to expend much physical effort.
Last time I was at a jazz club? Last night, to hear a close friend and his group.
Hello again, O-10. Now to explain more about the doublers. Let's take the first four woodwind books in your Phantom list.
Woodwind 1 is Flute and Piccolo. Yes, this is technically two instruments, so it is a double. However, all piccolo players started on and still play the flute. There is no such thing as someone who only plays the piccolo. That said, a great many flute players want no part of learning the piccolo. In a big symphony orchestra, the third flute player usually is officially the piccolo player (or the second player, in a smaller orchestra).
Same thing with Woodwind 3, Oboe and English Horn. Again, the English Horn is always played by an oboist, there is no such thing as someone who only plays English horn, they all started on and still play oboe. Again, in a big symphony, the third oboist would officially be the English Horn player.
Woodwind 4 is technically 3 instruments, so a triple. Again, though, they are all clarinets, and there is no such thing as someone who only plays the smaller E-flat, or the larger bass. They all started on and still play the regular B-flat (and A) clarinets. However, in a big symphony orchestra, usually the second clarinet player plays the E-flat, and the third clarinet player plays the bass. So this triple is a little more unusual than the first two. There aren't too many clarinetists that would play all three really well, speaking of the top level, anyway.
Woodwind 2, flute and clarinet, is what I would call a true "woodwind doubler", two totally different instruments. This is the only one of the five that is a book that only a true "woodwind doubler" specialist could play.
And speaking of the Frogman, I'm sure he has done doubling work before, being extremely proficient on both clarinet and sax. No sax in Phantom, though. I think he would corroborate the above. A flute player who plays piccolo well can get more gig opportunities. Same with an oboist who plays English horn well, and a clarinet player who decides to learn the E-flat or bass clarinets well. Someone who is a principal player in a large orchestra, however, may never play those other instruments, and may never have, except out of curiosity in a practice room.
And Frogman, if you see anything to correct or hopefully clarify in either of my posts today, by all means chime in!
Thanks rok. I was a Plt. Sgt and my chopper was shot down, several times. Pathfinders motto is "First in, last out " To each his own and all, but I told all and sundry if I fell to leave me just where I fell and move on , God could find my atoms wherever they were and he did not love one piece of ground more than another .
Learsfool, I don't mean to leave you hanging, it's just that I don't quite know how to respond to your posts without being misunderstood, and I'm hoping Frogman will chime in.
In the meantime, I'm going to sip some nog, and toast to you and all the rest of the aficionados.
Beats me rok. Though if he read the memoirs of America’s Greatest Mission Accomplished General on the events there in the 1840’s- also one of the few members of the WPPA who did not turn traitor in the 1860’s, it wouldn’t surprise me if he had a special concern for its rightful owners .
No problem, Orpheus. As both the Frogman and I have said before, it is often difficult for musicians to discuss these types of things with non-musicians and be understood. I wish I could write as clearly as Frogman does about them; he is definitely better at describing things to non-musicians than I am.
The bottom line is that some of these things that you find so mysterious aren't really, for someone who knows how it works. Once again, this is the main reason I encourage all music lovers like yourself to give music some serious study. So many of these types of things would become much more clear to you, and would greatly enhance your enjoyment of whatever you are listening to.
Learsfool's excellent comments leave little to add. Re:
****If this music was written out, do you think the classical musicians could play it, and make the music sound as though it wasn't faked?****
I think the confusion is due to the misuse of the term "fake". "Faking" is a term in the jazz vernacular that applies mainly to "club date" settings (parties, weddings etc.) where musicians play tunes in an ensemble setting in a way that sounds as if they are playing charts or formal arrangements of those tunes. It could be said that they are "improvising" these arrangements, but this is not improvising in the way that is heard on most on the clips posted on this thread. While most of the players that are good "fakers" are also good jazz players, not all good jazz players are good fakers. It is a unique skill that requires great knowledge of harmony and the ability to think like and speak (play) the language of an arranger. It is probably impossible to describe just how difficult it is to, for example, credibly play 4th tenor saxophone parts in the context of a classic five man saxophone section in a big band of musicians that have no written music in front of them. It is virtually a lost art that was fairly common at one time. I think that O-10 meant to say:
****If this music was written out, do you think the classical musicians could play it, and make the music sound as though it WAS IMPROVISED****
Learsfool did an excellent job of addressing this issue. I particularly liked his emphasis on the idea that just because the playing is fast and with a lot of notes doesn't necessarily mean it is difficult to play. In fact, in jazz the hardest thing to do is to say the most with the fewest notes. Re doubling:
"Phantom" is not a particularly good example of doubling on Broadway shows; only one of the reed books require doubling on instruments from more than one family of instruments. By contrast, in "West Side Story", Reed 3 is required to play flute, clarinet, bass clarinet, oboe, English horn, tenor saxophone and baritone saxophone. It is a daunting task to learn to play so many different instruments well and to stay in shape on them; not to mention instrument maintenance and the preparation of reeds. The doubler is also expected to be able to play credibly in many different styles and in some cases to also improvise. In fairness it should be pointed out that it is rare (not impossible) the doubler who can play each of those instruments at the same TECHNICAL level as a top single instrument or "straight" player. It might be of interest to note that doubling is required in some works in the Classical repertoire. Of note:
Alban Berg "Violin Concerto"- 3rd clarinet/alto saxophone Bernstein "On The Town"- 2nd clarinet/alto saxophone Vaughn Williams "Symphony No.6"- tenor saxophone/bass clarinet
Rok, the reasons for an institution to have an "artist in residence" can range from the magnanimous desire to provide a worthy artist with an environment conducive to the creation of his/her art with no other preconditions, to having a contractual agreement whereby the artist will teach, give lectures or, in the case of a "composer in residence", produce a work that may be premiered by the institution if that institution happens to be an (usually prominent) orchestra. In fairness, it should be noted that even in the first scenario in which the institution's motives are purely magnanimous, an institution can derive a great deal of "cache" and attention by having a prominent artist as "artist in residence". This being the case, there can be many benefits ranging from attracting top students to helping in securing funding and grants.
If it wasn’t for Learsfool. Frogman and Almarg the rest of us fools would just get dumber and dumber ! God Bless them all.
A recent development in Music i find very promising is various Orchrestras having "Associated Artists " . They sign for say 12 concerts over a 3 year period and arrive 3-4 days before a concert and rehearse with the Orch., instead of here today gone tomorrow jet-set soloist who spends 10 minutes getting meters from the conductor. To my old ears makes a big difference on all fronts .
Frogman, although I had seen the movie and read the book, the play was the most impressive of them all; and the most impressive aspect of the play was the music; and that was the most impressive for me, because of the "reed doubler" down in the pit.
I was seated second row, far left, and I could see him pulling different horns out of a rack while his eyes were focused on the sheet of music in front of him. Any musician who can blow sax very well is impressive to me; but this guy could blow sax, clarinet, oboe, and I don't remember what else, but he was fantastic on every instrument he blew. I'm sure the audience, who couldn't see the musicians in the pit, thought each different instrument was played by a different musician.
When there was fast jazzy action on stage, the music was fast and jazzy; when it switched to jungle music, the musicians in the pit changed instruments, and instantly transported you to the congo.
By the way, the name of this play was "Raisin", which is a very dramatic play with fantastic music that ran the gamut of emotions; from "Measure The Valleys" to "Alaiyo", African music that might have required a flute. Whatever, the "doublers" switched instruments and played it.
Frogman, could you get the details on the play and explain to us specifics about the doublers. Here is the link to that play
Raisinis amusical theatreadaptation of theLorraine HansberryplayA Raisin in the Sun, with songs by Judd Woldin and Robert Brittan, and a book by Robert Nemiroff (who was Hansberry's former husband) and Charlotte Zaltzberg.
The story concerns anAfrican-Americanfamily in Chicago in 1951. The musical was nominated for nineTony Awards, winning two, includingBest Musical, and theBroadwayproduction ran for 847 performances.
In Chicago in 1951, anAfrican-Americanfamily, Ruth Younger, her husband Walter Lee Younger, their son Travis and Walter's mother are living in a cramped apartment. Walter is a chauffeur but thinks that his father's life insurance policy proceeds will buy a way to a better life. He plans on buying a liquor store, but his mother Mama Lena Younger is against the selling of liquor. Tensions arise as Walter tries to convince Mama Lena to forget her dream of buying the family its own small house ("A Whole Lotta Sunlight").
Walter decides to make the deal for the liquor store and signs the papers with his partners Bobo Jones and Willie Harris. Beaneatha Younger, Walter's sister, is in college and is romantically involved with an African exchange student, Asagai. When Walter comes home drunk he joins Beaneatha in a celebratory dance, picturing himself as a chieftain ("African Dance"). Ruth and Walter fight about their future but they reconcile ("Sweet Time"). Mama arrives to announce that she has bought a house in the white neighborhood of Clybourne Park, and Walter leaves in anger.
Walter has not returned home and Mama finds him in a bar. She apologizes and gives him an envelope filled with money. She asks him to deposit $3,000 for Beaneatha's college education, and tells him the rest is for him. As the family packs to move, a representative of Clybourne Park, Karl Lindner, arrives and offers to buy back the house. Walter, Ruth and Beaneatha mockingly tell Mama of the enlightened attitude of their new neighbors. Just then Bobo arrives to tell the family the bad news that Willie has run off with the money. This forces Walter to contact Lindner and accept the offer to buy back the house. Although Beaneatha berates her brother for not standing up for principles, Mama shows compassion and understanding ("Measure the Valleys").
When Lindner arrives, Walter announces that the family will, after all, move to the new house.
The Long Beach Performing Arts Center inLong Beach, Californiapresented the musical in February and March 2003.
The Court Theatre inChicagostaged the musical from September 14 through October 22, 2006. The cast included Ernestine Jackson, who formerly had played Ruth, in the role of Lena Younger.[3]
In reviewing a performance in Washington (Arena Stage),Clive BarnesofThe New York Timescalled it "a warm and loving work."[1]In his review of the Broadway production, Barnes noted that the book of the musical "is perhaps even better than the play.... 'Raisin' is one of those unusual musicals that should not only delight people who love musicals, but might also well delight people who don't".[4]
After the Broadway opening,Walter KerrofThe New York Timeswrote, "The strength ofRaisinlies in the keen intelligence and restless invention of a musical underscoring that has simply invaded Lorraine Hansbury's once tightly-knit, four-walled, close-quartered play,A Raisin in the Sun, plucking the walls away, spilling the action onto the streets with a jittery down-flight of strings, mocking and matching realistic speech with frog-throated sass from the heavy-breathing viols."[5]The New York Timesalso reported that there are "ovations every night at the 46th Street Theatre for 'Raisin'. But they are for the cast, not individual performers. There are no stars.... It was at the Arena Theater in Washington, where the play first opened this spring, that Mr. McKayle said he started evolving the ensemble-acting concept."[6]
Jump up^"The musical is 'Raisin' and it has come to Broadway via Washington's Arena Stage". Barnes, Clive. "Theater: 'Raisin' in Musical Form",The New York Times, October 19, 1973, p. 59
Jump up^Kerr, Walter. "Raisin is Sweet, Could Be Sweeter",The New York Times, October 28, 1973, p. 127
Jump up^Campbell, Barbara. "Cast of 'Raisin' Works as Close as a Bunch of Grapes",The New York Times, October 27, 1973, p. 20
O-10, believe it or not, there is an on-line resource for finding out what you ask. Note that, as is often the case, there are two versions of the orchestration for that show. One is for a smaller orchestra which uses one woodwind doubler; the other version for larger orchestra using four doublers. It is interesting that the production you saw used a doubler that played oboe as neither of the original rentable orchestrations include oboe. It is not unheard of for the score to be re-orchestrated for regional productions of musicals. It is also possible that the doubler hired for that particular production happened to play oboe and it was decided to
This is just great. And these are supposed to be students!! No filler here, all the tunes will hold your interest. These guys, and one girl, on trumpet, can play!! Includes tunes by Ellington and Strayhorn.
Sales help support youngsters in Jazz. Buy It!!!
Maybe Wynton and the guys should be looking over their shoulders.
I've just recently joined this forum while looking for some new speakers. I ran across this thread almost two hours ago. I'm still here and want to contribute something.
My main gig is sales and marketing. My other life is as a jazz musician, (or, because this is a small town, the symphony, blues, funk or country. ((but I freakin' hate the country gigs)))
I fell into jazz at about 15 years of age. My parents asked me if I wanted to go with them to hear Oscar Peterson. I said yes.
I said yes not because I liked his music. In fact, I didn't like it at all. My parents had a bunch of jazz records and none of the songs sounded to me like the musicians knew where they were going. It was just a jumbled mess of notes. But I knew he was famous, an old guy and would probably die soon, so I went to the concert.
This was about 1966-67. Anybody over 40 was pretty much an old guy.
I was 14-15 years old.
We went to the gig. As it turned out, it was a solo performance. The room held maybe 300 people. Nice, intimate and we had an excellent view of his hands.
Anybody that knows the music of Oscar Peterson knows that he has a blindingly fast right hand and that his left hand is equally as fast, and can play off the right in such a way that sometimes you think that there are actually two piano players.
Anyway, here he is playing his stuff. It's not that good. (at least to my 15 year old ears). At one point he does the super fast right and left hand thing and I can tell he's going out of time. I thought, Okay, he's going out of time, but he's an old guy so that's okay.
He was not going out of time.
I'd just never had to listen to music that "hard" before. I became obsessed with understanding his music and bang; I was a jazzhead. Still am.
At some point in my life I can't remember I began to look for odd meter tunes. I think some tunes are written in odd meters just because the musicians can play them. Some others work. And work really well.
Here is one of my favorites, and my first contribution to this most excellent thread; Cannonball Adderly playing 74 Miles Away. I had the privilege of seeing this live.
Welcome to the thread Jazzmusician, I have that original LP. Seeing that performance live was quite a privilege, which will live in your memory forever; wish I could have been there.
I'll look forward to your many fine contributions in then future.
Rok, that was a fine contribution, and I enjoyed every last minute.
Did you know there are those who can not distinguish between notes played very fast and "Bird's Best Bop"? When you told me, (and I knew you would) that you liked what you heard, I knew you were not one of those who can not distinguish between notes played very fast, and "Bird's Best Bop"
"Bird's" patent on Bop is encoded in the music, and he took it to the grave with him. A lot of people think that playing jazzy notes real fast is "Be Bop", but it ain't. While I can clearly hear the difference, I can't explain it because I'm not a musician.
I think it's been stated that if I learned something about music, I could explain such things. If that's what it takes, count me out; God created those who play music, and those who listen to the music they play; I know my place in the Universe, I'm a born listener.
Rok, a recording studio can be a performance venue just like any other. Some studios present concerts with small audiences and radio station "studios" might broadcast performances taking place in-house. Additionally, a performance may be recorded in a studio (with or without an audience) with no processing or editing involved and with all the musicians in the same space as opposed to being separated in different booths for purposes of isolation. From those standpoints a performance may be said to be "live" in studio.
****Bird's" patent on Bop is encoded in the music, and he took it to the grave with him. **** - O-10
O-10, I hope you are not suggesting that no one played bebop after Bird passed 😎.
Gene harris -- FUNKY GENE"S I liked the track "Blues for Basie" the best, but could not find it on youtube. But anything this man plays is excellent. He is like Oscar in that respect. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3u-O9z4TJk[/url]
Harold Mabern -- AFRO BLUE I saw this and thought it had Porter and Salvant. But it was Porter with Norah Jones, Kurt Elling and others. This was the best cut. Most of the other tunes were a little too NYC-ish for my taste. How could I see Jones and think Salvant. I think I have early on-set [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9DRVjHYpzw[/url]
Frogman, I've been gone all day, and your question is a brain breaker; especially in the in-depth way you want it answered. "Diz" played "Bop" after Bird passed; that alone would seem to nullify my statement, but I don't think so.
Right now, I'm tired, but I wanted to post something to let you know that I'm not avoiding or evading my statement that Bird took his patent on Be-bop to the grave.
Rok, three excellent clips! While I have never questioned your taste in music, nor ever thought they needed to "improve" as O-10 suggests they have, I certainly think they have expanded; a perhaps subtle but important distinction. If liking that baritone solo in "Let There Be Swing" is not proof of this, I don't know what is 😎.
I particularly liked the Mabern "Afro-blue". Porter sounds fantastic; and, rarity of rarities, a tasteful horn-like scat solo kept short and with no wrong notes! Eric Alexander! Man, that guy can play; amazing tenor solo. Thanks for the great clips.
BTW, as you yourself pointed out the "Que Viva Harlem" band is a band of students. In many ways, given the changes in the place of jazz in our culture, the schools are the "street" of the past. There is a lot of really great stuff going on in some of today's Jazz schools and this shouldn't be dismissed. Two of the best, North Texas State and University of Miami (my alma mater):
You cats say my taste in Jazz has changed or improved, but man, you cats could not be more wrong. You see, my Jazz appreciation and understanding is so deep, and on such a radical trajectory, that you couldn't dig me at all. But I dug you, 'cause you two were coming from a more shallow bourgeois track. Dig? Frog, glad you dug the cat's wail on 'swing.'
A little known,relatively small school that has a hell of a good jazz program is U of Wisconsin-Eau Claire . As I recall Downbeat ranked it #1 several times . It spreads out to the city of Eau Clare as well, I seriously doubt if any out of the way town of 80k has as good a jazz scene .
rok2id, that kool-aid bottled at West Point is the strongest and most long-lasting on the Planet ! Only known antidote to the severe hubris attacks it induces is the Reality brand bottled at the University of Hard Knocks .
Both were very good. I give the nod to the guys in Miami. To my tin ear, their playing was more polished / sophisticated and together. Although the first Trombone soloist at Texas was very good.
One of its greatest grads said about all there is to say on that subject in his farewell address. The greatest speech ever made by a US President and completely ignored There can be no doubt though the view up the Hudson tops Sandhurst , St-Cyr, Bundeswehr-Hamburg,, NDA-Yokuska et al, though RMC-Kingston gives it a run for its money.
Good News, for me at least, I am not losing my mind. I did just purchase a CD with Porter, Salvant and a woman named Rene Marie appearing as singers. It was not the Harold Mabern CD, but the Marsalis / JLCO Christmas CD, "Big Band Holidays'
It's a good disc. All the tunes are on youtube. But there is a WTF? factor.
None of the singers are credited on the CD. Their names do not appear anywhere on the packaging or notes. They sing the same tunes as is shown on youtube, but they do not receive any sort of acknowledgement on the physical CD. WTF indeed!!
Yes, he was never forgiven at alma mater for telling the truth. Even more so for telling all in government to "never trust the Generals" on a regular basis .
Total US casualties in WW II were at 420 K, not all in Europe obviously . Most military historians are of the mind that the German and Japanese forces had some role to play in that.
NO nation, or group of nations, in the world has any M-I complex remotely as expensive as ours on a per-capita basis or any other basis . Greatest danger to USA, by far, is its debt .
Speaking of Jazz, jazzists -I am listening to a Larry Willis solo CD I bought yesterday at Goodwill . He sure is an elegant pianist , is he a big deal on jazz scene ?
**** He sure is an elegant pianist , is he a big deal on jazz scene ?***
He has played with a lot of big time folks. He is music director for Mapleshade Productions. I have the CD 'solo spirit' and one other. I assume this is the one you have. Its on the Mapleshade label. They record a lot of solo stuff. Interesting liner notes and tunes of a religious Nature. Is he a big deal? A question for The Frogman.
I would guess it would depend on who you asked, and in what context. Nice CD.
Generals are like Doctors. You may not trust this one, or that one, but in the end, you gonna trust a Doctor.
If MacArthur had been in command in Europe, or even overall command in the Pacific, there would be a lot more guys playing with their great great grands these days.
He said Ike was a damn good clerk. MacArthur was a bastard, but a brilliant bastard. The best General this country has ever produced. Few people liked him, so he must have been doing a lot of stuff correctly. Mediocrity hates brilliance.
Is Larry Willis a "big deal" in jazz? Too broad a question. If Willis is a big deal, then what was Bill Evans, Bud Powell, Wynton Kelly, Hank Jones; and what is Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Kenny Barron? If we are prepared to call them huge deals, then maybe. Willis was an excellent pianist, highly respected by his peers; and, yes, a very elegant player. Not quite at the very top of the list of great players, but very versatile (he played in the band "Blood Sweat And Tears" for several years). Bottom line: any pianist chosen by Cannonball, Lee Morgan, Art Blakey and other greats as sideman has got to be pretty darn good. Classic record from the jazz-funk era:
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