Acman, no you didn't misinterpret, my statements are contradictory; but when speaking of things that are in shades of gray, as opposed to black and white, that happens; now I'll try to clarify.
It seems the negative aspect of "new jazz" is it's conformity to some preconceived notion of what jazz is, or is not; that gives it a "uniformity" I don't like; but even that seems to apply primarily to "American jazz". Musicians from other countries do their thing, and allow us to define it any way we choose.
Since our taste in music is quite similar, our differences are the result of communication limitations. Like you said, it would all be clarified over a beer.
Enjoy the music.
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"Rags And Old Iron": When I was like 5, an old man with a cart that rode on two wobbly squeaking wagon wheels, had two long poles attached to it, which he stood between and pulled down the alley behind us, while crying "rags and old iron".
When I was like 20, the first love of my life went to the altar with someone else, and I cried, while singing "Rags And Old Iron".
Enjoy the music.
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O-10:
*****which he stood between and pulled down the alley behind us, while crying "rags and old iron".******
"Pulled" the wagon??? You must have lived way out in the sticks. In my more upscale area, rags and old iron guys "pushed" the wagons!!
I think I am going to like China Moses. She also has a clip with Dee Dee. Nice voice and presence.
Cheers |
O-10:
I didn't realize that China Moses is Dee Dee's daughter. No wonder she is so good. Great clip.
Cheers |
Sitting here waiting to see if I will have to serve on a jury. What better use of this time than to catch up on some of the submissions?
****It's that time of year once again. There is something just not right with this performance. Not sure what.****
Well, you're right something is definitely wrong with this "Pictures". Many details that could be discussed; but, in short, a lackluster third-rate performance of this staple of the orchestral rep. Interesting that all that is wrong with this performance is represented in and can be heard in the opening trumpet solo. This iconic melody should be played with confidence and a declamatory feeling; while not necessarily loudly, but with clear forward movement. This young player plays way too politely and not nearly inside the beat enough (no groove). The first three notes of the melody are quarter notes, the fourth and fifth are eight notes and twice as fast. Notice how he rushes through the eight notes. Then, at :31 he is late on the downbeat. Overall, not an example of good orchestral playing; to say the least. Check out Gergiev and the Kirov. |
(Still waiting). Cannonball Adderly Sextet Live In Switzerland:
Unbelievable! Without a doubt one of the best things a have heard in a while. The group was so "in the zone" that night that's its almost scary. Listened to "Jessica's Birthday" three times in a row. The groove is amazing and all the horn players were on that night. Biggest surprise for me was Yusef Lateef who hasn't always killed me; swinging his ass off, and what a great tenor sound! This one goes in the archives. Thanks for the clip! |
Well, I was looking forward to doing my civic duty; but, they don't want me. Maybe it was the suit and tie.
Have some thoughts about McCoy for later. |
Pictures: Lackluster is the word I would have used had this been an European or American Orchestra. In this case I think they played up to their ability. They are just not ready for prime time. I would have thought not ready for The BBC Proms, but I think their mission is to encourage and give exposure to classical groups like this. Even their body language was strange.
I have several Pictures. The Great Gate of Kiev was one of the first Classical pieces I grew to love.
I have Cleveland/Szell, Chicago/Solti and Chicago/Reiner. Because of these, I knew the Proms thingy was wrong.
I also Have Pictures played on piano by Evgeny Kissin. Didn't think I would like it, but I love it.
Cheers |
Cannonball: The CD is "Cannonball Adderley Sextet, Lugano 1963".
Cheers |
*****Maybe it was the suit and tie.*****
Maybe they didn't want a hung Jury. :)
Cheerrs |
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****I also Have Pictures played on piano by Evgeny Kissin. Didn't think I would like it, but I love it.**** I am sure you know the piece was composed for piano and then orchestratrated by, among others, Ravel. As O-10 often points out, it's hard to beat the original; although, it has been pointed out and speculated that Mussorgsky always intended to orchestrate it and just never got around to it. Kissin's is great. Also try this one by Horowitz; he was born in Kiev after all: https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=jXfJAup8W9w |
Frogman, I was called for jury duty in Cook County once, the DA struck me off because I had an advanced degree in history. |
One man's opinions: -"Old lion with the young pups!". Josh Evans. Good young players. Frank Lacy? Ouch! -Freddie Hubbard "Skydive". Nice clip. Never heard anything by Freddie that wasn't at least good. Great playing, but with a little of a "tenth stop on the tour" vibe. Kenny Garret is definitely someone deserving more attention on this thread. -Oliver Nelson "Screaming The Blues". Love Oliver Nelson. His composing/arranging is so good that his playing didn't always get the recognition it deserves. The choice of Dolphy is not only "courageous" but smart; the way a great arranger is smart, capitalizing on the contrast of styles. Nelson's playing is soulful but always orderly and disciplined; Dolphy's is abstract and upredictable. Good stuff! -McFerrin. I like McFerrin. Amazing talent, but I like his solo efforts best. -Sister Dee Dee. Great singing; great tune. She sounds amazing singing the tune. But, singers are always walking in dangerous territory when they scat. Few do it well and she does it better than most; and, there is always an element of excitement or the simple reason that the singer is being courageous doing it. However, for me, and to paraphrase a very poignant moment in a trial scene from a movie that I saw recently: "Now, close your eyes and imagine that she is a horn player?". Personally, I don't think it would hold up. -Abbie Lincoln. Love her and her unique style. Great stuff. Thanks for the clips! -Clark Terry "Quicksand". Smoking! Love his style of trumpet playing. Light touch and immediately recognizable articulation and sense swing. Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson (not credited) sounds great. "Diddling". Jazz players always say that playing a slow tempo is THE test of wether the guy can play or not. Terry plays just the trumpet mouthpiece at the beginning; gotta love it. ****I listen to Tyner, I hear Coltrane, even when Coltrane is not there**** Interesting comment and very appropriate. Both Tyner and especially Trane were key figures in the development of the pentatonic harmonic style of improvisation which defined much of the direction that jazz took in the '60's. This style uses as a building block for improvisation the first, second, third and fifth notes of any scale or tonality and is responsible in great part for the "angular" sound of much of the improvisation from that era to the present. I love it in Trane's playing, but as much as I love McCoy's playing I find that style somewhat tiresome in piano playing; I think because, with piano, the somewhat formulaic sound of this style is not offset by the flexibility of tone possible with a horn. You may find this interesting: https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=M66jmp4F8I8 |
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The Frogman:
Both of your links (Pictures & McCoy), led to the same place, the YouTube homepage.
Cheers |
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Schubert, pathetic isn't it? I guess that is what is meant by "jury of one's peers". |
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When I deleted #/ from your links, it worked. I noticed that did not appear in the links I sent. |
When I was listening to the Branford Marsalis Quartet playing A love Supreme, I thought it interesting that Joey Calderazzo was the most different in comparison to his counterpart in the Coltrane Quartet, McCoy Tyner. Very different players, but Calderazzo pulls it off.
I think Tyner was the glue that kept the latter Quartet from the abyss. |
****I think Tyner was the glue that kept the latter Quartet from the abyss.****
Interesting comment. How so? Thanks. |
****"Now, close your eyes and imagine that she is a horn player?". Personally, I don't think it would hold up.*****
I agree. Ella and Armstrong are the only ones I can recall off hand, that could play voice, and outplay the horn blowers while doing it. They scatted notes.
Maybe scat could help the guys who always complain about not being able to play what's in their heads?
Cheers |
I wanted to submit Hart's "For Cannonball and Woody". Which I played tonight. Found this and could not turn away. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBSTUvLg6Y8BTW, 'For Cannonball and Woody' is great also. He studied Classical Saxophone for Four Years. Seems to have survived it unscathed. Great Player. Cheers |
BTW, I love it when they listen to each other and react with facial expressions. The guitar player did this while Hart was soloing. Love it!!
Cheers |
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Frogman,
In the whirlwind of sounds of the quartet and the quintet [ Sanders], I always could find " grounding" in the chords Tyner was playing. I think a player like Calderazzo would have been overwhelmed in that sound, but McCoy could always be heard. I always thought the other players heard the same thing. Maybe not.
It could be the way my mind dealt with the dense ideas happening all at once, |
Acman, you and Rok are both correct; while it's not so apparent on records, at a live performance it was quite clear; "Trane" would take off to parts unknown, he seemed to feel, "If you wanted to hear what you heard on a record, you would have stayed home and played the record".
Tyner would stick with "Trane" as long as he could, but was quick to realize when it was futile, and that's when he would just make a solid foundation for the rest of the group to get behind.
According to Miles, Trane played for Trane on live sets. When this happened, only the musicians in the audience seemed to know what Trane was doing and where he was going.
Yes, Tyner was the glue that kept things together when Trane decided to go on one of his excursions, and Trane must have known that when the muse hit him, and he took off to another galaxy, that McCoy Tyner would keep things together down here on the ground; otherwise, as Rok stated, the music would have slipped into the abyss, and Trane knew that Tyner wasn't going to let that happen.
Enjoy the music.
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Well, after Tyner left, they did seem to fall into the Abyss. Maybe 'Black Hole' would be more descriptive. I wonder why Tyner left?
Cheers
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If my memory serves me, the problem started when Coltrane started bringing in other players. Mccoy left 1st and then Elven Jones left shortly after when Coltrane started using Rashid Ali, as a second drummer. One report on Wiki, said McCoy could not hear himself, with all the sounds. Maybe someone else can add some more.
I read or heard an interview a long time ago where Mcoy and Elvin said they just had problems with the direction of the music. I tried to find it on the internet, so you could see their own words, but I did not find it. |
Interesting comments all; and, in keeping with the incredible depth, scope and inclusiveness of Trane's music, I think that there is truth in all of them.
While it is true that bringing new players in compounded the "problem", I am not sure that the inevitable can be seen as a problem. Trane's music was like a train moving forward; with a direction that was unstoppable, if not a runaway train. True, McCoy was the glue, but Trane didn't always want glue; notice how he often had the piano simply lay out and not play ("stroll"). His excursions were then with just drums; his music was very drum-centric. There was a lot of experimentation going on and it would be naive to think that it was all a love-fest. As Acman says, at times there was disagreement and displeasure with the choices that Trane made and the direction of his music. From "Chasin' The Trane" (highly appropriate title for this discussion and highly recommended book):
"When I knew them, Trane and Eric were listening to tribal recordings of South African pygmies. Trane was really into African Rhythms. He told me that each drummer has a certain rhythm to play and doesn't try to play all the rhythms at once. What he heard was several drummers playing polyrhythms" - Leon Thomas
And yet....
"Ain't playin' shit! Trane's got this jerk on drums with me and he's got me goin' for hours on one tune, wearin' me out. Still ain't playin' shit!" - Elvin (on Rashid)
"McCoy left John Coltrane in Dec 1965 to form his own group. He had been thinking of leaving for some time; not because Trane's solo space was stretching out in inverse proportion to his, but because he wanted to follow his own musical direction. However, the fact that Alice Coltrane was also a pianist may have contributed to his decision.
Tyner once said, *A musician such as John shouldn't have to depend on the piano all the time. Sometimes it's better to work without it because the piano, as an orchestral instrument, can get in the way of the soloist, especially a horn player. John and I would decide on which tunes I would play and on which ones I would lay out*
But now McCoy was taking a permanent stroll. And Alice Coltrane walked in as McCoy Tyner walked out" - J.C. Thomas (the author) |
Yes, Frogman is absolutely correct. What I was calling the abyss, was where Coltrane wanted to go. He had not lost his way, but was finding it. |
As hard as I looked, I couldn't find any examples of the Trane I was talking about. This was a hip night club with a lot of musicians in the audience, so maybe Trane was showing them something special, but he never went quite that far out on any of the other live sets. The last 4 minutes of this set for 20 minutes is about as close as I can get. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03juO5oS2gg Enjoy the music. |
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If you think gunplay because of a dispute over chord changes is an indication of passion, I would hate to see what some folks I know would do (to you) after hearing anything Coltrane played referred to as "just fine" :-) O-10, I have a pretty good idea of what you looked for on Youtube. and all I can say is that I envy you for having witnessed some of that. I suspect it was something more along these lines: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL7D089D2C50E97018&v=Yy_3tYlT398BTW, enjoyed the Kenny Garret clip; thanks. |
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The Frogman:
Coltrane's LEO: The CIA uses that tune at Gitmo.
Cheers |
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May this thread continue to flourish... |
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I discovered this, thought it might be of interest to the conversation around Coltrane lending greater insight to the man his early influences and evolution.
"Trane's music was like a train moving forward; with a direction that was unstoppable, if not a runaway train."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOJj4YXWPLI |
O-10:
Nice tune. Brazilian music is so light, and with such infectious rhythms and percussion playing. It's all good. Besides, she is a Fox, albiet, a heavily made-up Fox.
Did you check out the Flute? What do it be?
Thanks for the clip.
Cheers |
C1ferrari: A little input from folks like you, will ensure that it continues to flourish.
BTW, Awesome system.
Cheers |
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Today's Listen: I have a lot of Peterson, but I am missing his stuff with the Trumpet players, save Clark Terry. Look hard enough and you will always find something to buy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJj7rii0YRACheers |
