Jazz for aficionados

Pharaoh Sanders, “The Creator Has a Master Plan”.  Amazing!  Thanks.

What other hat wearing tenor player had a tenor tone later in his career almost exactly like Pharoah’s?  Both came up in the “free jazz” scene around the same time (mid-late ‘60s).  Interestingly, his tone was fairly conventional at first and for the time:

https://youtu.be/BuyT7d8ex5M

Gato then went to a tone concept like Pharoah’s.  However, he used it to move to a much more accessible genre: World Music/Latin pop.  Usually works the other way around as far as tone goes, but it worked for him.  

“Trane was the Father, Pharoah was the Son, I am the Holy Ghost"- Albert Ayler

Go in with an open mind.  Otherwise, you may not come out 😊

https://youtu.be/GXscqwF2E00

Frogman, jazz is not something that exists free of gifted individuals. If jazz is moving so freely forward, why are you submitting so much jazz from the past? Why aren't you submitting jazz from 2010 at least?

Frogman, as much as I like Don Cherry and Gato, you can have that one. I either have that or something similar, that stays in the CD player just long enough for me to sit down, listen a little, then get up and take it back out.

**** If jazz is moving so freely forward, why are you submitting so much jazz from the past? Why aren’t you submitting jazz from 2010 at least ****

O-10, because you brought up the subject of “free jazz” and, based on your post it seemed to me that you were connecting all post-bop jazz with free jazz. Two totally different genres. “Modern Jazz” has moved well beyond hard-bop while having nothing to do with free jazz. Moreover, there has been a tremendous amount of post-2010 Jazz posted by myself and others and two (“so much”?) examples of interesting, or at least significant, “free jazz” seemed like an appropriate contribution given your reference to it. Lastly, the obvious: 2010 to the present is a mere ten years; jazz, as you know, has been with us for a century. Many more examples, no? This subject has been beaten to death here, IMO, and there is a tendency to go around in circles with these general sub-topics. Bottom line, and as has been written many times:

”there’s the good kind and the other kind”, and we can find examples of both from any time period including the present.

Regards, and I hope that answered your question.

Questions to The Frogman:

A person sits in front of a stereo system and listens to a tune he has never heard before.   He does not know the group playing.   He has no prior knowledge of any aspect of the music he is about to hear.

Can a person tell just from how the music starts and what and how it's played at the beginning, whether or not there will be a vocal component to the tune.   

Cheers

Frogman, what you call good jazz and what I call good jazz are two different things. Can we agree on that?

Today's Listen:

The most hated / feared group on Aficionados.   Also maybe the best.   Duke Ellington said they were 'beyond category'.

From a few days ago, this is the real best version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU-n68b9yPw&list=PLFrtbCBlUofgXYy7_xOG5BfIjTKCsdB5w&index=9 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKt8dRdb5-4&list=PLFrtbCBlUofgXYy7_xOG5BfIjTKCsdB5w  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsiwAiG_jz0&list=PLFrtbCBlUofgXYy7_xOG5BfIjTKCsdB5w&index=4  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIdSaCXBT24&list=PLFrtbCBlUofgXYy7_xOG5BfIjTKCsdB5w&index=7   

Cheers

Why all the angst?  Have you ever heard Frogman play Free Jazz? He leans toward a traditional preference on Jazz, in case you haven't noticed, but seems to have an open mind on most Jazz.

One of the reasons you listen to Jazz is to go to the fun memories you have of the day. No music takes me back to those days, only today and tomorrow, so we listen for different reasons which you will never get. I'm not looking for comfort, but interesting music, to me. Great if you or others enjoy it.

Play what you like, and move on. Disregard what you don't understand. Negative comments are cool, I know where you are coming from.  I will now go back to playing music.

Most of all have some fun. Life is way too short!
 

As I see it, the Frogman is not consistent.

Rok, when I hung out at emporiums, I discovered that rich people like the worst music; marches even.

My question to you Acman is "How much do you play that interesting music?" Do you play it as much as you play what you and I would consider "good jazz?"

Well, I must confess Sousa is one of my favorite composers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyrmVBfe2Bg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GD-5mRyaJw

The Brits are very good at Marches, esp since they have 3 bands for every Infantryman.

Cheers

My fundamental thesis is that good jazz is no longer being "created". They are not creating jazz at the Lincoln Center, they are playing jazz. Musicians who play in Sue Mingus's big band, are not creating jazz, they're playing Mingus compositions.

Someone will have to post a musician who they think is creating something new in jazz to prove my fundamental thesis wrong.

The answer to this question for me, is more related to sociology than jazz.

Rok, I would like the "Beys" a lot more, if they stuck to script instead of giving every song the "Bey" treatment.

Rok, you didn't tell me you were rich.

As a matter of fact,  the rich guy was British. 

***** My fundamental thesis is that good jazz is no longer being "created". *****

The same can be said of 'Classical' music.  As far as I am concerned it can be said of all music.

There is no  natural law being broken here.   Nature does not demand that music maintain a certain level forever.   Think of all the people who lived when there was no means of listening to music in the home.  Be glad you lived doing a time when you could hear Ellington et al   in your home.

Rock music killed it all. The drugs, the no-talent 'rock stars', personality cults, clueless  worshipers(fans) , obscene money.

Society used to act as the guy on the GONG show.   I think Ella was 'run off' the stage at the Apollo in Harlem.    Now everyone gets a trophy, be it little league or entertainment.

Hebert von  Karajan, the long time great conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic said towards the end of his career, that we were approaching a time when "everything will be 10th rate", he was speaking of the arts and artists.   He was right.

I have 3000+ CDs, over a third of them Jazz,  and  7 CD players.  I can stay in the 60's forever.

Cheers

You are correct about the guys at Lincoln Center.   That's why they are so important.   They can play the old good stuff sometimes even better than it was in the past.   They are better schooled musicians, have better recording technology, and a master arranger.   They keep it alive.

My fantasy wish:  Some people with the right voices would go back and redo all the great R&B and Motown stuff, using all the modern advances in recording tech, better arrangements and instrumentation, better musicians.   Wouldn't that be something!

The way The Supremes and The Temptations were recorded is a crime.

Cheers

***** Rok, you didn't tell me you were rich.*****

Shhhh   we Billionaires have to keep a low profile.   Otherwise these audiophile wannabees will be trying to nick my Polk Speakers.

Btw, POLK SDA back on the market.   Start saving your little pennies.

Cheers

orpheus10You took some time where you were not participating and we were posting more recent jazz.

Here is an interview with, IMHO, one of the greatest drum players (it can be argued he was the greatest) and musician to ever play this thing we call jazz. And he was a perfectionist who expected the greatest effort, at all times, whether in the studio or live, of the members in his band.

And I quote from the interview: "The art form of jazz will continue"

"There is an elite audience out there that will appreciate what we do"

"What we do has more validity to it, and there is an audience out there who wants to see and hear better things"

"I try to keep a very high standard with my music"

"I was brought up in a world of music that I doubt very much we’ll ever see again - that kind of talent - artistry - and dedication, you wont find that today"

The above quotes were taken from the first 5 minutes of a 15 minute interview from 1987 in which he gives high praise to Lester Young, Charlie Parker, and Dizzy Gillespie.

If you have 15 minutes to spare I think it would be worth time spent. This is part 1 of a 3 part interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_8PmhaWskc&t=622s

pjw, that was a fascinating interview.

orpheus10, This is how Buddy Rich reacts to members of his band not "pulling their weight":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=covUesgI6fA&t=184s

After you listen to a few minutes of the above (which is quite enough) watch this and see the talented, hot tempered, Buddy Rich doing what he does best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzS2hGuoPXU

btw, Buddy detested country music. Said it was hillbilly noise played on 3 chords.

This new Buddy Rich biography is being released on October 1. I already pre - ordered my copy


https://www.amazon.com/Buddy-Rich-Making-Greatest-Drummer/dp/1540064239/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=buddy+ri...

Amazon blurb:

In this meticulously researched biography, author Pelle Berglund presents the first comprehensive book on the life of Buddy Rich, still considered by many to be the greatest drummer ever to pick up sticks. Using interviews with many of Buddy's band members (some conducted by the author himself) along with extensive sourcing of quotes from practically every interview ever given by Buddy himself, a complete chronology of Buddy's life is presented along with insights into what drove him and what he thought about the various situations and people he encountered through his life.

One of a Kind recounts each chapter of a life lived in the spotlight: childhood star Traps, the Drum Wonder; young jazz drummer with Joe Marsala and Bunny Berigan; star sideman with Artie Shaw, Harry James, and Tommy Dorsey; and leading various incarnations of the Buddy Rich Big Band. A twentieth century icon, Buddy's relationships with Shaw, Dorsey, Count Basie, Johnny Carson, Frank Sinatra, Mel Torme, Gene Krupa, Norman Granz, Lana Turner, and his family, including wife Marie and daughter Cathy, are insightfully investigated.

Never-before-seen photos of Buddy culled from the private collection of collector Charley Braun add a new perspective on Buddy's life including a 16-page featured photo section. Beyond providing a complete timeline of Buddy Rich's life, One of a Kind provides a glimpse into the mind of a musical titan who demanded greatness from himself and those around him, and became of the most celebrated and controversial stars in music.

Also includes an incredible introduction by drummer Max Weinberg and a link to additional online photos, video and audio.

**** Frogman, what you call good jazz and what I call good jazz are two different things. Can we agree on that? ****

Absolutely not. You have posted many things that I consider good jazz and others have also posted many things that both you and I have considered good jazz. So, there goes that theory 🤪. Now, as far as what I have posted and how you feel about it:

If I were to agree with your comment it would mean that you don’t consider the work of Miles, Trane, Shorter, Turrentine, Cannonball, Hancock, Morgan, Criss and countless others who played the music at the highest level to be “good jazz”. Why? Because I have posted them all and more.... many times. Many more times, as was just pointed out, than the few “out of the mainstream” things that I have posted and which seem to cause you to make statements like the above. Things that, while they may not be to someone else’s liking (or, even mine), may have important significance from a historical perspective; or, simply from a skill perspective. There is value in all that and understanding that value makes one a better listener. Just because I post Albert Ayler in response to YOUR comment doesn’t mean that it is what I always reach for when listening to music. Of course, we know that the real rub is that I disagreed with the way that you associated all post-bop with “free jazz”.

You want to talk about not being “consistent”? Please! I have been extremely consistent. Consistent in keeping an open mind for the new and the old; and when something is not to my liking stylistically I judge it according to how well it is executed from a skills perspective. “Consistency” is sometimes just a word for narrow minded and of limited scope. You have your own personal reasons for always trying to punch holes in what I write. Doesn’t take a genius to understand why this is. No problem; it’s your issue, not mine. Your comment above is simply a sneaky way of, once again, saying that you think you know what good jazz is and that I don’t. Please, must we go through that childish nonsense again? I prefer to have meaningful discussion about this great art form and its history with some semblance of logic and without hysteria and needless personalizing. It does get very tiresome. Just as it gets tiresome to have to go through these pointless discussions. “Why all the angst?” Great question.

What IS a problem (for this thread) is that some always seem to want to turn this into a competition of some sort. “Best this, best that”, “only classic jazz is any good”, etc. Can’t praise something without putting something else down. “If someone doesn’t like what I like then he has terrible taste in music”. All the while without consideration of the obvious: personal taste, the reason for and the value in better understanding of the objective aspects of the music. I could say a lot more on the subject, but I would direct you to Acman3’s excellent post above. He laid out a great formula. There will always be something to learn and there will always be things about art that we don’t understand or can relate to. I see it as room for growth, not for shutting doors; and, that doesn’t mean that we then have to stay in that particular room.

pjw, Buddy’s ranting and raving is the stuff of legend among musicians. I know many players who played in his various bands over the years including the pianist responsible for making that infamous tour bus recording. The stories are incredible; some hysterically funny and some unbelievably pathetic. Great and iconic drummer. At times, not so great human being.

I found something that was very interesting in regard to the subject being discussed; no, it does not support my position, as a matter of fact, I don't know what position it supports, but I think we should investigate it "together".


        https://www.npr.org/sections/ablogsupreme/2015/12/21/460527087/the-2015-npr-music-jazz-critics-poll

I saw Rudresh Mahanthappa at the NYC Winter Jazzfest in January 2013 just before James Carter took the stage.

I am not a music critic and not everyone will agree with a "critics poll".


Rudresh Mahanthappa, otoh, deserves all the accolades he has received since arriving on the jazz scene in the mid/late 90's. He is an extremely proficient alto saxophonist who has won the Down Beat magazines best alto sax player of the year award.


I have the album in the link, 2015's "Bird Calls" and I like it a lot. I also own several more of his albums including his collaborations with a great pianist by the name of Vijay Iyer. Challenging but rewarding music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx9cNAN8-w8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDjEQ4JpRv8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGqVIOnA9OQ

pjw, I appreciate your input, although I probably wont evaluate it until tomorrow.

Thanks.

You have an amazing record collection, pjw.  Congrats.  Great Buddy Rich clip.  Amazing drummer.  More Buddy; with the great Tonight Show Band (Lew Tabackin on tenor!):

https://youtu.be/2-yQWPanTyw

Glad you posted some Rudresh Hamanthappa. I didn’t want to comment on jpw’s clips before O-10 did since he had just promised to do so. Just being cautious 🤫; one never knows 😊.

Astounding! I can’t believe I hadn’t heard this guy before. Total ease in those incredibly difficult odd meters. Makes “Take Five” seem like a nursery rhyme. Interesting that most attempts by American jazz players to go to the Eastern/Indian side of things don’t quite make it. He goes from the Indian side to the Jazz side of things and it kills. Strange but wonderful logic to his improvisation. Thanks to both of you for the introduction. Definitely one to check out further.

From the same NPR series. Featuring the guy filling the Tenor 1 chair in the great Maria Schneider Orchestra:

https://youtu.be/oIbFjfH0erI

Speaking of Buddy Rich and drummers... 

"And, you know, I think the original recording of Ravel's Bolero, probably whoever played percussion on that, will never have it played better than that."  (Buddy Rich)

 ~ Philip Howie on the drum performance in Ravel's Bolero ~

The first minute or so is incredibly nerve-wracking. You’re playing close to the limit of your ability - literally as quietly as you can play. Each stroke must be carefully controlled, because it will be obvious to everyone if one doesn’t sound properly.

Somewhere around the third or fourth woodwind solo, you start to relax a little. You’re playing at a comfortable - if still very quiet - dynamic, and you’re still feeling fairly fresh and alert. At the same time, you’re constantly questioning your playing. You’re intensely aware that once you’ve increased your dynamic, you can’t go backwards, and you’ve got a long way to go. You don’t get a lot of help from the conductor.

Several minutes of tedium follow. Here, the challenge is to stay focused on the music. Your mind starts to drift. It’s very easy to lose concentration and realize halfway through a bar that you have no idea whether you should be playing the first or the second bar of the repeating pattern. The conductor ignores you completely.

Somewhere around the seven or eight minute mark, you notice that your nose is itching. Or there’s something in your shoe. Or the hall is really hot and you’re starting to sweat uncomfortably. Or you have a touch of cramp in your leg. Or your left stick isn’t in the perfect position in your hand. There’s literally nothing you can do about it, and you still have five minutes of this to go. You spend at least a minute trying not to think about it.

Into the closing minutes though, something else takes over. You’re no longer playing within that comfortable dynamic range, in which you spend 98% of your playing life. The music is starting to get really LOUD. Your technique is being tested in a different direction. You may have a lot more company than in those opening few bars - and even a friendly second drummer - but you’re once again feeling incredibly exposed.

The last two bars of the piece are the most terrifying part of the whole experience, because you have a rest of about a beat and a half. For the first time since you started the piece (about an hour and a half ago, by your recollection) you are not the one in control, and whether or not you land that final downbeat with the rest of the orchestra is entirely in the hands of the conductor.

Your colleagues in the percussion section gently pry your sticks out of your grasp and turn you round to face the rapturous applause. You’ve joined an elite group. You feel drawn out and used. It was worth it.

"Why all the angst?" Precisely my point. That’s a damn good message you’re sending acman.

"There will always be something to learn and there will always be things about art that we don’t understand or can relate to. I see it as room for growth, not for shutting doors; and, that doesn’t mean that we then have to stay in that particular room." That’s true frogman. Great post by the way.

"You are correct about the guys at Lincoln Center. That’s why they are so important. They can play the old good stuff sometimes even better than it was in the past. They are better schooled musicians, have better recording technology, and a master arranger. They keep it alive." True.

"We welcome you with open arms David. That's a marvelous beginning; remember, we are all still learning, there is no end to this journey." Could not agree more O-10.

pjw, I am glad you liked Jan.

Mary_jo and the reason that, as a relative of mine always says, the world would be a better place if more women were in positions of power.

Excellent post, Mary_jo. That anecdote on “Bolero” is wonderful; and completely true. More on the great Buddy Rich:

Watch Buddy Rich play and one of the things that one notices is the relaxed attitude in his body. One of the things about Buddy that is often forgotten is that he was a tap dancer (and singer!). Not exactly Nicholas Brothers caliber hoofer, but he was pretty good:

https://youtu.be/kwE6ukSz69c

Pretty good drummer, but outstanding hoofer:

https://youtu.be/xoEX6g8itTw

Great to see all these responses:

Rob McConnell and Boss Brass - if you can find their D2D, the sound and music is awesome!
Miles - 12 Sides of Miles - found this used and cleaned it and it sounds great.
Coltrane
Art Blakey
Wynton Kelly
Wes Montgomery
George Benson - still love Breezin' - one of my all-time fav albums - and sound is excellent
Ella - at the Cote D'Azur - with Duke - One Note Samba is on there and she does some scat singing. Great live performance.
Getz - Girl from Ipanema - great album and sound
Oscar
Jim Hall
Pat Metheny
Jaco Pastorius
Paul Desmond
Dave Brubeck
Ed Bickert
Urbie Green - if you like trombone, he has a very smooth, distinct style
Rob Brookmeyer
Gerry Mulligan
Chet Baker
Christian McBride
Sonny Rollins
Duke
Count Basie

A minor typo correction...Rudresh Mahanthappa. Agree on his being a fantastic alto-sax player and composer.

Rok,

**** A person sits in front of a stereo system and listens to a tune he has never heard before. He does not know the group playing. He has no prior knowledge of any aspect of the music he is about to hear.

Can a person tell just from how the music starts and what and how it’s played at the beginning, whether or not there will be a vocal component to the tune. ****

Interesting question. The short answer is, no; with one notable, but very “inside” exception. First, I assume that by “vocal component” you mean vocalist as soloist on the tune as opposed to non-soloist vocalizing as part of the arrangement. The way that, say, a piano trio “sets up” the soloist in the introduction to the tune does not have to be and would most likely not be any different for a vocalist than it would be for an instrumentalist. To recognize the notable exception the listener would have to have perfect pitch or relative pitch. All tunes are composed in a particular key. Instrumentalists seldom play tunes in a key other than the “standard key” (the key that the tune was composed in). Vocalists, however, often need to have the accompanist or band play a tune in a key other than the standard key in order for the tune to be within a range that is comfortable for that particular singer’s vocal range; not too high, not too low.

Johnny Hartman sang it in the original key (C Major) his baritone voice was comfortable in that range:

https://youtu.be/ecrE80rnjhw

Ella needed to sing it a sixth higher in the key of A to accommodate her higher vocal range:

https://youtu.be/_ss9TV70uqE

Sting (yes, Sting; not bad!). Sings it in the key of F; about half way between C and A. If you listen to the general range of Hartman’s and Ella’s voices, even without perfect pitch, one can tell that Sting’s general vocal range is roughly between that of Hartman’s and Ella’s :

https://youtu.be/3MYCQLDoeB8

This one is for our OP, O-10. One of the first tunes by Gato that I heard way back when. Great feel in the rhythm section: 

https://youtu.be/vRsxDN2YLQM

Fantastic Bolero story.   I used to wonder those things myself.   I always wondered what would happen if he dropped a stick.   On one of the Bolero performances at The Proms, a cloth on the drum head is seen slowing sliding off the drum head.  What was that?   Whatever it was, he was powerless to do anything.

Thanks for the answer Frogman.  I always thought I could tell because of what I perceived to be a drop in volume and / or a slowing of tempo, just prior to the vocals coming in.
Informative answer.   Thanks

Cheers

Questions to The Frogman:

What makes this Jazz?   Or even more to the point, what makes this music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk9NaHsobew

Cheers

That’s a good observation and accurate. It is part of the “set up” for the entrance of the soloist, whether it be vocal or instrumental.

What does our resident Grant Green-phile think of this?

https://youtu.be/2yZXafHQiIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWP77C4StLs


pjw
 back in the late seventies when I started listening to Jazz Buddy Rich was one of my favorite artists and drummers( not as much today).  I may have to buy That Bio when it comes out.
 you were correct I could only listen to several minutes of that rant. It's tasteless.I think it's pretty well-known that Jerry Seinfeld used several of buddie's quotes in different episodes. Here they are see above

My favorite quote: "  would you like to step outside and I'll show you what it's like"
BTW -  he was a black belt in karate and he probably could back up that statement!

pjw  famous Buddy Rich quote   from a Tonight Show episode when he was sitting with Johnny Carson.    he had to go into the hospital and the doctor asked him" are you allergic to anything" and he answered" yes country and western"

Jazz musicians have always loved comedians. No relative importance implied, but when all is said and done there are a lot more similarities than differences between a great comedian and a great jazz musician. The really good ones use inspiration, subtlety, creativity, adaptability, flexibility, and draw from what they have worked out and practiced in one manner or another to make it all seem spontaneous to their individual personalities. Comedy has had its Satchmo, Bird, Miles, etc. Thanks for that Seinfeld clip.

Now you know why only the OP can afford them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5EMrFsT7V4

Reminds me of programs I've seen on Rolls Royce  and Porsche assembly lines.  

The 'million dollar' system I mentioned a few days ago had this speaker.

I wonder if they sound better than my Polks?

Cheers