Jazz for aficionados
Imprint -- To fix indelibly or permanently (as on the memory) webster I had an aunt that passed away back in 1999. Very sophisticated woman. Well traveled, Berkeley, HS Principal, taught Latin in High school. Her former students in large cities, LA, Detroit and esp Chicago, formed clubs of former students and would invite her and honor her like royalty. She loved the attention. Made 'ladies' of hundreds of girls she taught through various social clubs. Embraced all things new and modern. Loved music. Played the huge pipe organ at our church. When she died I received her floor standing console music player. A lot of wood! Mono, one speaker. And on the platter when I opened the top: A 78 rpm record of Duke Ellington and his Orchestra. I just smiled. She stayed true to her time. The definition at the top explains why. That's why we don't need no stinkin' New Jazz. Cheers |
***** But without the well-spring of live music it all means nothing .You have to drink from the well to placate your thirst .**** That is exactly right. **** The Jazz you are speaking of is gone. Gone. **** That is exactly not right. The problem is that very little of it is being recorded because the audience is much much smaller than it used to be. It is there in clubs in major cities and some not so major. We bemoan the shrinking of the market for “the Jazz that you are speaking of” but we don’t go out and support live music. **** once Wynton is no longer with us, that will be the final nail in the coffin of Jazz as we knew it, as far as it being played at the highest level. **** I don’t believe that for one second. Way too pessimistic. Besides, I believe you are conflating a lot of different issues; painting with way too broad a brush. Wynton’s legacy will be that of keeping a specific segment of “the Jazz you are speaking of” in the public eye (ear). Fabulous legacy. That effort, so far, has had little to do with bebop, hard bop, post bop and beyond. His forays into those other segments of “the Jazz you are speaking of” have been been lackluster and not significant. Those other flames are being kept alive by others that will not get the financial backing of the powers that be because of that sadly small audience. Go to the small clubs in NYC, Chicago and others and you’ll hear it. **** That's why we don't need no stinkin' New Jazz. **** Maybe you don’t. But, understand this, you are handing Wynton the hammer for that final nail. Nice story about your aunt. As nice as that story is, I would rather take the message from someone like Frank Wess who, like on my last clip, was totally digging where the younger player was taking things. Not the way HE would do it, but he recognized how good it was. Another little and interesting aside in that clip that may or may not mean anything to some, but is just another little example of how most players themselves usually respect both sides of the equation, the old and the new. Look closely, the older player is playing the latest and current model Selmer saxophone, the younger player is playing an old Conn from the ‘40s. Symbolism at its best. https://youtu.be/xK3JgffVwb8 |
Jazz be Gone?: All your points support mine. We are in total agreement. I say it's gone, you say it's not being recorded, very small audience, and you have to go to large cities to hear it. Same thing. When scientist say a species is extinct, there may be a handful left, but not enough to maintain the species. ***** His forays into those other segments of “the Jazz you are speaking of” have been been lackluster and not significant. ***** Maybe not to Jazz insiders, players, critics or kingmakers. But to the great unwashed, it is a different story. He is very significant. He tries to stay that way by playing with people like Clapton, Willie Nelson, popular singers, and getting youngsters involved. Frank Wess, like you, is a professional. He sees the entire Jazz scene from a different perspective than does the public. First and foremost, pros want to play. For Love or money. Besides, I have nothing against players because of age. Cheers |
Today's Listen: Cannonball Adderley -- CANNONBALL AND THE POLL WINNERS The poll winners were Ray Brown, Wes Montgomery and Cannonball. This grouping came about almost by accident, Cannonball was playing in SF at the Jazz Workshop, Oscar Peterson, with Ray brown, was at the Black-Hawk, also in SF, and Wes was across the bay in Oakland. All that talent by chance within a stone's throw of each other. there was such depth in Jazz at that time. Made the polls fun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cdxRHctXxM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE5ozZro9Ng https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1Tg7S9T5E8 Can you imagine the poll contenders for Sax and Trumpet back in the late 50's and early 60's. Cheers |
Ahmad Jamal now makes his home in Marseille; speaking of live music, my budget will not allow me to fly to France. (when are the French going to learn how to spell; that's pronounced "Marsay".) Anyway, he's made a bundle off "Poinciana". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev-3kIXlEGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cytUz9KkK9M |
With respect, you’re twisting some of what I wrote. First, I did not say Wynton is not significant. He is very significant (“Fabulous legacy”). He is insignificant as far as being part of where Jazz has been going for quite some time. His stuff with JALC is very significant as is much of his other work. I also did not say that new jazz is not being recorded. I said little of it is being recorded relative to how much is going on live and certainly relative to how much was recorded in the past. This is not news; we know this. The argument that there is no good new Jazz simply doesn’t hold water. Any given listener may not like new Jazz for stylistic reasons and that is fine. But there is plenty out there and and some of it is being recorded. The idea that no new Jazz is happening at a very high level is simply nonsense; doesn’t mean everyone will like it. When was the last time you wore your purple bell bottoms? My objection to the constant pessimism is that it does the art form a disservice in more ways than are obvious. Moreover, what is the point, on a more human level, of constantly putting down what others, who are obviously not idiots, find value in; other than to try and put oneself on some sort of pedestal? Btw, Frank Wess and players like him don’t promote younger players like Robinson because they need opportunities to play. They do it because they believe in their artistic vision and where they are taking the music. |
Poinciana: A good example of the later version, with better everything, being actually better. I have the Pershing Disc, who doesn't, and on my copy you can the audience talking throughout, Also, the applause was very perfunctory. Like, oh he's finish, I guess we should applaud. The Paris one is better, but I just wish they would stop trying to speak French. They all do it. It just encourages the French. Cheers |
Frogman, we have no disagreement. And I don't dislike the people involved, or dis their efforts. We are discussing how Jazz has changed. All the people are just fine. After all, If they can play middle C, they can out play me. And some music will prevail and continue, and it will be called Jazz. It will gain many followers, mostly young, and it will lose many followers, mostly older. That's life. Cheers |
Frogman, I have asked you time and time again for some new jazz, and what you have presented doesn't qualify to my ears, and they make the final decision. The reason for this poll thing is to find something new, and as close as I can come is Charenee wade; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FMaP3hlm9E Let me give you examples of what I called new when it came out in chronological order: Alice Coltrane; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQtEFdyhgdE Don Cherry was new; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp5mZxkeV1c Chico Freeman "The Kings of Mali" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buFUP2LvK2s I am so sick of that same old boring "stereotypical" toot toot jazz I could scream. |
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I am so sick of that same old boring "stereotypical" toot toot jazz I could scream.***** OP, you may need to vary your musical diet. Remember Cannonball said it was all the same thing. Scientist say Birds are actually dinosaurs. In that spirit and context, This is Jazz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfscL_f_uyU Listen to the end. Cheers |
I know many "new jazz" musicians who are good - very good - excellent. There are just not that many of them today as there was pre 1970. I know this because my Jazz CD collection is comprised of approximately 75% pre 1970 and 25% 1970 to the present. I support new jazz artists by buying their albums and attending live shows frequently in the jazz clubs of NYC. If there were absolutely no good jazz musicians around, as some have suggested, these clubs would not exist. But exist they do and more often then not, are packed to full capacity with jazz aficionado's. |
As for Buddy Rich there are hundreds of recordings he appears on where you are not "aware he’s even there". The bulk of Buddy’s short - medium - long drum solo’s are live to please an audience who are screaming for a solo. Buddy is one of the greatest drummers to ever pick up the sticks and I cannot believe a "jazz aficionado" would think otherwise. The OP of this thread was "Moanin" by Art Blakey and Blakey played more extended drum solo’s on his studio albums then any other jazz drummer. So the statement that "the best jazz drummers are the ones you are not aware of" is a contradiction to this thread. Frankly speaking, how any so called jazz aficionado, could put up a post that subtly or indirectly suggests that Buddy Rich was a sub par jazz musician/drummer is absurd. |
If you asked some of the jazz legends who are still active like Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, Jack De Johnette, Dave Holland, and Chick Corea if there exists absolutely 0 good jazz artists today because their "ears" tell them so, what do you think their reply would be ??? BTW, The above artists all had one thing in common and a true jazz aficionado would know what it is. |
I was catching up on posts on this thread over the last week or so tonight and saw a couple of mentions of Gunther Schuller. In addition to being a great writer/jazz historian, he was also a great composer, both of jazz and "classical" music. He organized brass groups in New York that crossed over both styles of playing and made some very interesting records. He played my instrument, the French horn. He was actually principal horn of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, and wrote a famous book on horn playing. He was a great man and great musician. Had the pleasure of meeting him my freshman year in college when he came to speak at my school. He died in 2015. He can be heard on some classic jazz albums, including Birth of the Cool. He was also good friends with the best jazz horn player of the era, Julius Watkins. He and one of the other top orchestral horn players of the era, John Barrows, can both be heard (in a backup horn quartet) on Watkins' record entitled French Horns For My Lady, recorded for Phillips. Watkins himself was mostly a side man, as you can imagine, playing the horn, but he was leader on a few albums, notably a couple he recorded for Blue Note with a sextet he put together. |
This thread has been going since
02-24-2013 10:12am. At least Four regulars that have stuck pretty much all the way. Each closing in on 5000 posts. Quite a few folks have jumped in from time to time, to make their comments. Over 1.5 million views!! And to the best of my knowledge, no one, and I mean NO ONE, has ever mentioned Buddy Rich until you did 3 days ago!! Over 6 years and over 17,000 posts, and not one mention of Buddy Rich!. I think Kenny G has at least a mention or two. Of course NOW, The Frogman is all gaga over Rich. How predictable.. A few corrections to follow. Cheers |
O-10, a very friendly suggestion: be confident with and comfortable in what you believe to be the truth and move on. Btw, as nsp recently pointed out a great deal of new Jazz was posted while you were away. Check it out. From me over just the last week or so: Michael Brecker, Donny McCaslin, Scott Robinson, Ralph Peterson, Albert Ayler, Bob Mintzer. Nothing stereotypical about any of them. Regards. |
I can see right now that people who live in and around New York City, have absolutely no idea what the rest of the country is like. Once upon a time there were cities that had lots of nightclubs that entertained people, cities like Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, and the South Side of Chicago, which was a city unto itself with lots of jazz clubs that no longer exists; while the other half of Chicago is thriving (at least it was the last time I was there) the South Side for the most part no longer exists. There was nothing I liked better than going to clubs in St. Louis when they existed. It's a daytime tourist thing now in order to still claim that it's a city; you want to go to the zoo or see the arch? Pjw, I never said anything about "new jazz musicians"; I said "new jazz"; there is a difference. Buddy Rich was my favorite drummer, and everybody else's favorite drummer in high school, but my tastes have evolved. "Frankly speaking, how any so called jazz aficionado, could put up a post that subtly or indirectly suggests that Buddy Rich was a sub par jazz musician/drummer is absurd." Who dat say dat, not me? there exists absolutely 0 good jazz artists today because their "ears" tell them so, what do you think their reply would be ??? Again, who dat say dat? I'm looking for "new jazz music"; could you post some? |
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If you asked some of the jazz legends who are still active like Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, Jack De Johnette, Dave Holland, and Chick Corea if there exists absolutely 0 good jazz artists today because their "ears" tell them so, what do you think their reply would be ???***** I guess your bar for 'Legend' is very low. If these be legends, what are Armstrong, Ellington, Mingus, Basie, Young, Morgan, Miles, Trane etc....?? I assume you get the drift. Being a Jazz fan means more than just being able to regurgitate Media hype. We can all read for ourselves. Btw, no one said there were 0 good Jazz artist. The straw-man game has been played and defeated long ago on this thread. Cheers |
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Frankly speaking, how any so called jazz aficionado, could put up a post that subtly or indirectly suggests that Buddy Rich was a sub par jazz musician/drummer is absurd.***** I am sorry if my statement came across as subtle or indirect, it was not meant to be either. I said he was a Show-man and a Show-off. If that's too subtle for you, try this: He was a noise making loud mouth bully!! Had no business in Jazz. A media creation. Another Maynard Ferguson type. All show, no substance. (listen to my high C) No one, who is serious about Jazz considered him anything other than a lightweight. That is, except you. For your information, I don't think any real Jazz fan buys an album based on who the drummer is. People loved the messengers not for Blakey's drumming, but for the other personnel in the group, who were most often excellent young players. That is, except you. Cheers |
Wallace Roney 1988: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYhqbouxxBY Wallace Roney 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNV_eCsZ04o I could make a list of good jazz artists that are still recording and playing live but it is not my job to use up my time to satisfy people who could get on the internet and do it themselves. The term "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" applies to a few people on this thread. |
Rok, must you? How many great players have been posted here over the last few months for the first time; often with wonderment as to why they weren’t posted previously? What on earth does that have to do with anything? Surely, you can come up with a better nonsensical attempt at a dig than that. Not to mention that you are mistaken; “how typical”. Buddy Rich was mentioned here at least a couple of times. At least once in reference to his featured tenor player Steve Marcus early on during one of my attempts to focus on big bands. There has been little interest in the big bands here. ***** Frankly speaking, how any so called jazz aficionado, could put up a post that subtly or indirectly suggests that Buddy Rich was a sub par jazz musician/drummer is absurd." Who dat say dat, not me? **** For the record 😊: **** Show-man and show-off. The best Jazz drummers, you hardly know they are there. Cheers **** **** Rok, truer words were never spoken; **** - O-10 |
roc do you honestly think I believe that since 7:07 pm when I posted about Buddy Rich until 7:58 when you posted your retort of my post, that you checked 348 pages and "over 17,000 posts", in your own words, is simply not doable. Unless you have had nothing else to do since I posted BR 3 days ago and have been diligently at work checking every post on this thread to "prove your point" to this I would only say one word. Pathetic. |
**** I don't think any real Jazz fan buys an album based on who the drummer is. **** https://youtu.be/in5H8Zg4jME |
pjw, hang in there. This too shall pass; been there many times. You contributions are valued a great deal. Your support of the music is as fine as anyone I have come in contact with. **** He was a noise making loud mouth bully!! Had no business in Jazz. **** Hmmmm 🤔. Just change the tense from past to present 😊 |
learsfool, here is one of my favorite Julius Watkins songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGYCTARFR0g orpheus10,FYI Watkins was born in Detroit so I'm sure you heard of him. |
Another example of the excellent Buddy Rich in a big band setting with some outstanding solo's in the brass sections and on piano. Buddy plays a short but electrifying solo at the end of the song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2Dh1cyHKlA |
I have exactly 48 Art Blakey albums in my collection. Again I must repeat - Art Blakey has more extended drum solo's on his studio albums then any other drummer who leads a jazz group. I think Art Blakey was a great drummer and band leader and many a newcomer on the scene got his start in the "Jazz Messengers" before moving on. I happen to enjoy his extended drum solo's on his albums. I can say with a certainty that I like the music output of Blakey better then Buddy Rich. It is not for me to say who is the better drummer. I like them equally as drummers. |
BTW, I have music from the computer in the basement coming to the bedroom, so if I don't know who's playing, I have to get out of bed and go check. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrWs0lSZvBQ This impressed me enough to get up to verify my suspicions. Wardell Gray ballads are harder to find than Wardell "Be-Bop" Lucky Thompson was also sounding good, but can't find it on the tube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkKneiZNNXs Oh yes, "Elanor Rigby" by Chick Corea qualifies as "new music" for me because it sounds good, and it's different from everybody else's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxfi0g_5CiM&list=RDbxfi0g_5CiM&start_radio=1&t=10 My world, my definitions. |
This is a modern composer who can dance on the Jazz side or the Classical side at the same time with beauty and grace for both . https://youtu.be/QXNbLi88Iw8?t=2 rok, Phil means "lover of" in Greek and was often given that name when rich folks were the major money men back in the day . Symphony just means a band with all the instruments needed to play one . Today terms are used because big cities often have more than one major ensemble . Symphony 2 doesn't sound all that well . |
