****Since I couldn't decide which one of these I liked best, I pasted both of them, and now you can decide for me.**** Silver's own version of Nica's Dream is my favorite of the two; by a long shot! Blakey's version is too slow. There is no law that says that a tune can't work played at a tempo different from the one the composer intended, but this is a case when the composer's tempo is so clearly the better one that it makes Blakey's version sound sleepy by comparison and lacking energy. Then, there's Blue Mitchell's solo on Silver's version; that alone makes it the better one for me. ****he expands this tune on this date, like nowhere else,**** Curious about this comment. What do you mean by "expands". Senor Blues and other Silver tunes have gotten a lot of attention and deservedly so; but, there's been no mention of what is probably his most recognized tune and, arguably, his best record: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=boVaez6rVNAThe composer talks about his tune: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NFjmWI-d6d4 |
In regard to "Senor Blues", when I said *he expands this tune on this date, like nowhere else,****; I was referring to his piano solo beginning at 4:10, and going all the way to the end, when he was backing Blue Mitchell. The one at Newport wasn't as clear, there was noticeable distortion. On the "Senor Blues" I pasted, I liked Junior Cook's and Blue Mitchell's solo's much better; as well as Mr. Silver's piano where he got into a special groove beginning at 4:10, all the way to the end where he was backing Blue Mitchell. Notice at 9:11 where he digs in and hammers the piano like a drummer. Before, I couldn't decide, but now I've decided, and I definitely like the "Nica's Dream" on the "Jazz Messengers" better. Silver was on piano, on both LP's; but Blakey's was "languid" meaning slow and relaxed; this was due to the slower pace, and I most certainly liked Donald Byrd's and Hank Mobley's solos better on that "Nica's Dream". The interesting fact is, the composer was on both versions; he just decided to play slower with the "Jazz Messengers". In regard to "Song For My Father", I didn't know we were through with Mr. Silver; especially after the detail and depth I covered "Donald Byrd," but you won't get any argument out of me, about "Song For My Father" being his best, I'm especially attached to that tune. After Leon Thomas's Father's funeral, he sang that at a club, and it brought tears to my eyes because I knew his father, and I could see his smiling face. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSYwGEiowHgEnjoy the music. |
I asked the question because on the clip you posted Silver solos (what I thought you meant by "expand") for about three minutes and on the clip from Newport he solos for about six minutes. He also plays much more percussively (like a drummer) on the Newport; not a better or worse thing, just different. The distortion doesn't bother me in the least; the music comes through loud and clear.
****The interesting fact is, the composer was on both versions; he just decided to play slower with the "Jazz Messengers".****
i doubt that the tempo on Blakey's version was Silver's call since he was a sideman on that date and I have not heard any version of that tune with Silver as the leader that is anywhere near as slow. I don't think the tune works as well at the slower tempo, and"languid" is a good characterization of Blakey's drumming on that cut. As I have said before his drumming strikes me lazy sometimes.
****", I didn't know we were through with Mr. Silver****
Wasnt suggesting we were, nor that you were the only one giving Señor Blues attention. Just surprised the tune hadn't been mentioned by anyone. No direct reference to you.
Leon Thomas sounds great singing the tune until he starts the yodeling thing; a bit much this time. Thanks for the clip.
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Frogman, the yodeling is a Leon Thomas signature thing. The only other yodeling I ever recall before him was that cowboy thing, and there certainly isn't any semblance between the two. Although I recall Rok making the same comment, I like it.
When he sounds like Joe Williams, which is how he sounded when he started with Count Basie, is what I like the least; it's too commercial for my taste.
In the comments section, most of the people stated they liked the yodeling. Someone said he was inspired by African Pigmies, but I don't know anything about that. Someone else said it was an acquired taste thing, but I liked it the first time I heard it; it definitely sets him apart from the crowd, and I think he should have focused on what set him apart from the crowd as opposed to just singing.
Since "Nica's Dream" is my favorite tune by Horace Silver, I liked both versions a lot, but the messengers with Donald Byrd and Hank Mobley was definitely my favorite.
I interpreted your statement as meaning we have covered all there is of significance by Horace Silver. Feel free to take us in any direction you choose.
Enjoy the music.
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*****
I interpreted your statement as meaning we have covered all there is of significance by Horace Silver.*****
Surely you jest!! You have not even reached Dee Dee Bridgewater yet. No Filthy McNasty? 'The Cape Verdean Blues' has some nice playing / tunes on it also. The list goes on.
Hang in there. You got work to do.
Cheers |
O-10, I like and appreciate clarity in communication; I think the lack of it has led to a lot of silly bickering here. For that reason, these and any other related comments/questions are in that spirit and an attempt to avoid miscommunication going forward; nothing more. Having said that, and so that I can be more clear and concise in the future, what exactly about my comment caused you think that I thought that
****we have covered everything there is of significance about Horace Silver****?
On the other side of the coin (so to speak), while I am well aware that the "yodeling" is a "signature thing", I wrote:
****; a bit much this time****
Iow, I don't particularly dislike it, just think he took it too far in that performance; to the point of distraction. |
There are so many excellent versions of Nica's Dream!
I love them all. |
All
I am looking for this CD;
Atzko Kohashi - Dualtone
anyone have a copy or know where I can buy it? |
Jafant, type in the label, Toniq Records, and it will take you to a page in Japanese, which looks like they are selling the CD you are looking for. That's all I can find.
Where did you hear of Ms. Kohashi? Do you have any other music of her's?
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LWaOV2U5vycDon’t know what to think of this pianist; need to hear more. Very strange YouTube clip, however. I listened to it and I heard what were clearly two (not so subtle) edits at 1:35 and 3:07 and heard what I thought was her quoting "I Remember You". It wasn’t untiI I saw the credits at the end that it became clear that this clip was excerpts from thre different tunes (including "IRY"); but way too close together. Keith Jarrett overtones in her playing and while this is not meant as a dig AT ALL, what little I heard makes me feel that in many ways she is the "anti-Horace Silver": cerebral, dreamy, non-percussive and rhythmically kinda vague. Please report back when you find the CD. |
Nothing kinda vague here. One of my favorite Silver records, but strangely obscure and unknown. Horace Silver/ Eddie Harris; a match made in heaven (Ralph Moore is not too shabby either): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XTdCMqHbwbM |
acman3-
I ran across the pianist on youtube- she has a few CD releases.
I am very surprised that I cannot find her titles on Amazon nor eBay? |
Frogman, you consider the version headed by Silver better than the "Jazz Messenger's"" on "Nica's Dream"? I'm still trying to pick up Art Blakey's sloppy drumming that makes the messengers version of "Nica's Dream" sound sleepy. Maybe you could give me the time where I should listen.
No "silly bickering" I'm just trying to be a more astute listener; especially since you and Rok said I don't want to learn anything, and you're the master musician. Now on Leon Thomas's yodeling, a bit much this time, he took it to the point of distraction, you stated. I listened to it a second time and he began his signature yodeling at 1:30 and carries it to 2:38; now that's just over a minute, when the song is 5:21 long, and according to you, just over a minute is to the point of distraction.
I know how much you appreciate clarity in communications, and that's what I'm striving for. I also think you stated that Blue Mitchell's solo sounded better than Donald Byrd's solo in the same spot. As good as Blue Mitchell is, he's no Donald Byrd, and that's not a subjective evaluation, it comes under objective evaluation, as almost any jazz aficionado will tell you.
Enjoy the music.
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Here I was, thinking that over the last two days you were compiling a comprehensive list of albums and clips by Horace Silver; little did I know that you were ruminating over my comments 😊. O-10, I appreciate you striving for clarity and, more importantly, striving to be "a more astute listener". I think that there’s still work to be done. My thoughts why:
****especially since you and Rok said I don’t want to learn anything, and you’re the master musician. ****
No, O-10, we didn’t say that, YOU have said that; and you remind us every chance you get. And, no, I don’t consider myself a master musician, not even close; I will leave that designation to the likes of....well, I’ll leave it at that.
****I’m still trying to pick up Art Blakey’s sloppy drumming that makes the messengers version of "Nica’s Dream" sound sleepy. ****
I never said his playing was sloppy (on this cut); only that, imo, Blakey’s version was too slow. My commment:
****Blakey’s version sounds sleepy by comparison and lacking energy. ****
Your comment:
****but Blakey’s was "languid" meaning slow and relaxed; this was due to the slower pace, ****
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From Miriam-Webster dictionary:
"languid":
1
: drooping or flagging from or as if from exhaustion : weak
2
: sluggish in character or disposition : listless
3
: lacking force or quickness of movement : slow
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So, where’s the problem; where’s the disagreement?
Re Thomas:
"Yodeling" for over a minute?! Way too much for me. Why does someone who puts so much stock in "subjectivism" have an issue with my "subjective" opinion on this?
Re Mitchell:
**** I also think you stated that Blue Mitchell’s solo sounded better than Donald Byrd’s solo in the same spot. As good as Blue Mitchell is, he’s no Donald Byrd, and that’s not a subjective evaluation, it comes under objective evaluation, as almost any jazz aficionado will tell you.****
I didn’t say any such thing. I wasn’t comparing the two trumpet players; I compared, AS YOU ASKED US ALL TO DO, AND "DECIDE FOR YOU", which version was better. I said, that Mitchell’s solo alone made Silver’s version better for me. Now, please, pray tell, tell us where it is written that "almost any" aficionado thinks that Byrd was the better trumpet player; this aficinado certainly doesn’t. First of all, he’s not; and, moreover, does this not also fall under the heading of "subjectivism"? Just as a possibly interesting aside: one of the more curious little factoids about Mitchell’s career is that he looked (physically) so much like Freddie Hubbard and played so much at a similarly high level that he was sometimes confused for Freddie; someone who, I hope, we can agree was at the very highest level in the hierarchy of great trumpet players and a level where neither Mitchell (and certainly Byrd) were not quite at.
Got any Silver? Or, thoughts on Silver/Harris 😄
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The reason that tune by Silver and Harris is almost unknown, is because it in no ways compares with their best works.
There are many yardsticks by which a jazz musician is judged and Blue Mitchell doesn't measure up to Donald Byrd, in that solo, or in body of works.
The Jazz Messengers were an influential jazz combo that existed for over thirty-five years beginning in the early 1950s as a collective, and ending when long-time leader and founding drummer Art Blakey died in 1990. Blakey led or co-led the group from the outset. "Art Blakey" and "Jazz Messengers" became synonymous over the years, though Blakey did lead non-Messenger recording sessions and played as a sideman for other groups throughout his career.
The group evolved into a proving ground for young jazz talent. While veterans occasionally re-appeared in the group, by and large, each iteration of the Messengers included a lineup of new young players. Having the Messengers on one's resume was a rite of passage in the jazz world, and conveyed immediate bona fide.
How could the "Jazz Messengers" accomplish this if Art Blakey was such a sloppy lazy drummer? And you still haven't explained how Leon Thomas's just over a minute of yodeling was to the point of distraction.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman;
Let me repeat, "I still appreciate your musical wisdom, for those like Rok, and Acman who benefit from it".
That was my post on 04-02-2016 7:11pm.
This was Rok's post immediately following that post.
We all know that you do not want to know anything about anything. What we don't know is why you are so ADAMANT about telling us this at every opportunity.
We get it.
This was after my comment about Art Blakey; "Before or after the beat".
And you're still talking about Blakey's "Lazy sloppy drumming"
I think this will end after the swallows come back to Capistrano, or the cows come home; whichever is first.
Enjoy the music.
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If you say you don't like Leon Thomas's yodeling for just over a minute, when yodeling is his signature thing; that would mean that you just don't like Leon Thomas; and that most certainly would come under the "subjective" heading, but to say you like Leon Thomas, but not his minutes worth of yodeling sounds insincere. Since you want you're statement to come under the "subjective" heading, just say you don't like Leon Thomas.
Enjoy the music.
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Blue Mitchell was a very good trumpet player; but his record pales in comparison to Donald Byrd.
Mitchell was born and raised in Miami, Florida. He began playing trumpet in high school, where he acquired his nickname, Blue.
After high school he played in the rhythm and blues ensembles of Paul Williams, Earl Bostic, and Chuck Willis. After returning to Miami he was noticed by Cannonball Adderley, with whom he recorded for Riverside Records in New York in 1958.
He then joined the Horace Silver Quintet, playing with tenor saxophonist Junior Cook, bassist Gene Taylor and drummer Roy Brooks. Mitchell stayed with Silver's group until the band's break-up in 1964, after which he formed a group with members from the Silver quintet, substituting the young pianist Chick Corea for Silver and replacing Brooks, who had fallen ill, with drummer Al Foster. This group produced a number of records for Blue Note. It disbanded in 1969, after which Mitchell joined and toured with Ray Charles until 1971.
From 1971 to 1973 Mitchell performed with John Mayall, appearing on Jazz Blues Fusion and subsequent albums. From the mid-70s he recorded and worked as a session man in the genres noted previously, performed with the big band leaders Louie Bellson, Bill Holman and Bill Berry and was principal soloist for Tony Bennett and Lena Horne. Other band leaders Mitchell recorded with include Lou Donaldson, Grant Green, Philly Joe Jones, Jackie McLean, Hank Mobley, Johnny Griffin, Al Cohn, Dexter Gordon and Jimmy Smith. Blue Mitchell kept his hard-bop playing going with the Harold Land quintet up until his death from cancer on May 21, 1979, in Los Angeles, at the age of 49.
A lot of alto sax players are very good, until you compare them with Charles "yardbird" Parker; you get my drift.
Enjoy the music.
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O-10, we'll simply have to agree to disagree re Mitchell. As much a I lile Byrd, I like Mitchell more than Byrd. You like Byrd; I'm cool with that. Now, as far as your "yardsticks" are concerned, it would be helpful if you would tell us and explain what musical yardsticks you are using and how they each apply to the two players in question; that would bring some relevance to this discussion.
Re Thomas (again): with all due respect, you're grabbing at straws. I like Thomas and I have said so. I wonder how HE would have felt knowing that his yodeling was the only thing there was to like about his singing; according to O-10 of course. This is a ridiculous discussion.
Now, O-10, this is your thread and I know you want to maintain high levels of integrity here. This is just a gentle suggestion. It is in good form, when quoting someone else's writings (Wiki or others), to make it clear that they are someone else's words.
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Acman, I share your opinion. Aldo, imho, we skipp some very nice albums where Donald Byrd played, maybe later I could point to some.
I have same feeling when it comes to FH, somehow I can name more albums where I liked Mitchell's playing, or Byrds as well, than the ones with Hubbard. On the other hand, I prefer Dizzy over him, when it comes to some other types of recordings. Strange as it seems, I never cought up completely with his work. Maybe we shall come to that, here, later...
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Frogman, if you like Leon Thomas, what songs or albums do you like by him?
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This whole "bruha" started because I stated "Before the beat or after the beat; what difference does it make, and you have never pointed how Blakey is either; you simply stated you didn't like his lazy sloppy playing.
I take it you are referring to the "Jazz Messengers" when you mentioned Wiki. Is that your way of dodging "Before or after the beat" in regard to Art Blakey's "sloppy drumming"?
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Frogman, almost this entire post came from "Wiki", does that make you feel better or meet your criteria?
03-29-2016 12:38am
Calling all aficionados: I'm trying to get organized on this "New music hunt". This time, we go through a musician phase by phase, evaluating each change as we go. Hopefully I have Donald Byrd in order so that we can go year by year, happy listening.
Donald Byrd: Low Life
From Fuego (Blue Note, 1959)
I could have started with a song far earlier in Byrd’s career but my point here is to establish his bop/post-bop certifiers with a spry, swinging tune that reminds me of Bobby Timmons best work.
Donald Byrd: Cristo Redentor
From A New Perspective (Blue Note, 1963)
Byrd + gospel choir = sublime. And cinematic, no? Couldn’t you imagine this in some spaghetti western where our hero walks atop a sand dune, the sun setting at his back? Have I been watching too many Leone films?
Also: best cover ever.
Donald Byrd: House of the Rising Sun
From Up With Donald Byrd (Verve, 1964)
The best known song off this album is probably the cover of Herbie Hancock’s “Cantaloupe Island” but thanks to US3, I can’t really bear to listen to it much. I do like this cover of “House of the Rising Sun” though. No only does it draw from the same choral backing that we heard on A New Perspective but you can begin to hear the hints of the coming soul-jazz movement. It’s the small, subtle things in the rhythm that you’ll hear even more so on…
Donald Byrd: Blackjack
From Blackjack (Blue Note, 1967)
And here we are. It’s not upside your dome funky but clearly, it’s working in that vein, especially with the hard hammer of Cedar Walton’s piano. But heck, let’s take it a step further and let the drummer get some.
Donald Byrd: Weasil
From Fancy Free (Blue Note, 1969)
The first thing that strikes you is that Duke Pearson is tickling the Rhodes on here, apparently the first time Byrd allowed an electric piano to roll in. Combine that with the more aggressive breakbeats by drummer Joe Chambers and “Weasil” belongs firmly in the soul-jazz era that’s since been enshrined through comps like Blue Break Beats and Jazz Dance Classics.
Donald Byrd: The Little Rasti
From Ethiopian Knights (Blue Note, 1972)
To me, Ethiopian Knights represents the deepest Byrd got into this era of the soul-jazz sound before moving more towards proto-disco fusion style. Nearly 18 minutes long, nothing “little” about this.
Donald Byrd: Where Are We Going?
From Black Byrd (Blue Note, 1972)
With this album, Byrd minted a smash and established himself as one of the masterminds of a sound that blended jazz, soul, funk and disco. Black Byrd was, in many ways, a total blueprint for the next five years, not just of Byrd’s career, but the direction of jazz and R&B as a whole. For me, I definitely hear some What’s Going On? elements at play but the sheer smoothness of the track also hints at what you’d hear with yacht rock by the late 1970s. It’s all right here.
By the way, I’m going to skip over Street Lady even though it was an important/successful album, yada yada. The only thing I want to say is that the title track is an interesting “throwback” to Byrd’s sound from about five years before. It’s like a retro-hard-bop tune.
Donald Byrd: Wind Parade
From Places and Spaces (Blue Note, 1975)
The Mizell brothers era of Byrd’s career is perhaps his best known to most hip-hop fans given the sheer number of samples that emerged from it. Anyone up on my site should already have “Wind Parade” in heavy rotation but this is one case where I can’t not include it in here. Any song that helps power one of the greatest remixes in hip-hop history deserves that much.
The Blackbyrds: Mysterious Vibes
From Action (Fantasy, 1977)
At some point in the early 1970s Byrd landed a production deal with Fantasy Records and from that, he assembled a group of former Howard University students and they became the Blackbyrds. By the mid 1970s, though Byrd was still recording on his own, he was arguably experiencing more success in producing other groups, especially the Blackbyrds who had a string of hits I’m sure all of you are familiar. “Rock Creek Park” remains a constant staple for any good disco set but I threw in “Mysterious Vibes” here because 1) I like the name and 2) it’s groovy.
The 3 Pieces: Shortnin’ Bread
From Vibes of Truth (Fantasy, 1975)
The 3 Pieces were a short-lived group from the D.C. area that Byrd also produced, albeit not to anywhere near the same success as the Blackbyrds. Pity since the album yielded at least two strong cuts: the jazz dance track above as well as the more mid-tempo crossover track, “Backed Up Against the Wall.”
The Blackbyrds: Wilford’s Gone
From Cornbread, Earl and Me (Fantasy, 1975)
This seems as good a place to close out: the dark, moody, melancholy groove of “Wilford’s Gone” from the soundtrack of Cornbread, Earl and Me. Yet another gem shaped by the hand of Donald Byrd.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, by the way, the information on "Blue Mitchell" was from "Wiki", am I Kosure according to your protocol? Now that I've revealed it, or is there some other process I have to go through? |
Frogman, I have quite a few of his albums, or albums where he played,from different decades, man can play, no doubt. Like I said, its 'my thing', not something that I can disaprove about his music. Clip is from his 'Soul Experiment' album from 1969. https://youtu.be/kLAWWv60b24But, we can come to that later, as I see that you are in middle of conversation with Orpehus
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What happened to the complete, detailed, in-depth, comprehensive, time no object, thorough, and exhaustive review of the music of Horace Silver?
Just asking.
Cheers |
Re Thomas (again): with all due respect, you're grabbing at straws. I like Thomas and I have said so. I wonder how HE would have felt knowing that his yodeling was the only thing there was to like about his singing; according to O-10 of course. This is a ridiculous discussion.
Frogman, this is the most ridiculous statement you have made up until this date.
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Rok, that's a very good question, and I think it got lost after the beat, or was that before the beat.
Enjoy the music. |
Rok, this is just like old times; Leon would enjoy this: me, him, and his brother on one side of Missouri Ave, and the Gatlin brothers on the other side, daring each other to cross.
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On 4/22
Bill Evans Trio- Some other Time (lost recording)
2-LP and 2-CD sets available!
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Acman, "Blue Mitchell" Graffiti must be in high demand; the CD is listed for $26.93 used. I like it, maybe I'll get it.
Enjoy the music.
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**** What happened to the complete, detailed, in-depth, comprehensive, time no object, thorough, and exhaustive review of the music of Horace Silver? ****
Excellent question!
O-10, if your question about Blakey's drumming style is an honest one, I would be glad to go into more detail; and, you could also explain your "yardsticks" comment as I asked you to previously. But really, I think it's time to stop this silliness; I will, anyway. I think it's obvious our personal agendas here are very different and, unfortunately, diametrically opposed; so, I would prefer to not distract you from your work on your exhaustive review of Silver's music.
Regards, and I look forward to your review.
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After all of this, it would really be a waste not to understand "before and after the beat", but it would have to be explained by example. In regard to a "yardstick", there would have to be a number of them, and finally to take them all into consideration; for example, one of them would be how many albums an artist has made as leader. Another would be how many tunes he has composed; but since I'm a total "subjectivist" that's sort of moot because then we would have an "objective" measurement of music, and I say which ever artist you like the best, is the best.
Horace Silver is coming after you have explained "before and after the beat"
Enjoy the music.
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frogman,
Thanks for posting the Freddie Hubbard clip. And don't feel you have to apologize for the audio quality; the music speaks for itself.
I've never heard this before and I enjoyed it immensely!
--Bob
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One of Silver's last recordings (1999). This is 46 years after he started with the Jazz Messengers. As you can hear, he didn't change his style of playing. I am beginning to think he is like Mingus in the sense that he is a composer first, player second. I think with some players, the composition of the group, sidemen, is more important than with others. With Silver the group personnel is critically important. Seems incorrect to call them sidemen. Since he mainly plays with a stabbing staccato style (drumming), some one has to play the melody and carry the essence of the tune. Ryan Kisor on Trumpet. I think he is another one who is now with Wynton. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bomix15duj0&index=2&list=PL4ypuAMic-Gh5kyhERAMZMFIPTnwfQxZXI like this CD. It's a sad indictment of modern Jazz that this was as good as anything else being played at the time it was released. You would have thought Silver would have been considered 'vintage' by 2000. Cheers |
BTW, I bet this is not a Blue Note Release. :) Surely not BN Cover art. Verve. Ain't progress grand?
Cheers
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O-10, I asked you for musical yardsticks; iow, pertaining to the playing of the two trumpet players in question. Stylistic, command of the language of jazz; harmony, rhythm, inventiveness etc. You have provided none. While things like the number of recordings as a leader are certainly important, that fact says nothing specific about a musician's playing. Still, let's look at a yardstick you are using anyway: Blue Mitchell recorded 27 records as a leader and more than three times that many as a sideman; a pretty impressive recording resume by any standard. Now, here's the punchline: Mitchell died at age 49 and Byrd at age 81! Makes whatever leg up Byrd may have had in number of recordings pretty irrelevant as far as far as I am concerned. This still says nothing about who the better player was; a contention that you raised, I simply said that I liked Mitchell's solo on Nica's Dream and you went on to compare it to Byrd's solo on a different version of the tune. Importantly, FOR ME, Byrd recorded many records, particularly late in his career that were....well, let's just say, as Rok would say, that "left the farm". A term that I frankly is rather kind; I would say a lot of those funk/disco records were simply jive. Your own words about Byrd: ****Once I accepted the fact that it ain't jazz, I listened to it for what it is. While most of this new music is geared to someone much younger than me, I'm not so old that I done forgot what it's like to have wild hormones**** Not much of an endorsement for some of his "body of work". I can't think of any Mitchell recordings as a leader that were as ji......er, that left the farm as much as some of Byrd's 😉 Ok, the Blakey thing: O-10, with all due respect some of your comments are simply not focused enough to have a substantive dialogue about some of these topics; to be blunt, they are sometimes all over the place. Example: IT WASNT I WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BLAKEY PLAYING BEHIND OR AHEAD OF THE BEAT. Once again, it was YOU who said that, in reference to something you said someone else altogether said. I have said only that Blakey's drumming sounds lazy sometimes and that I like a different style of drumming better; drumming which is more crisp and organized and with more forward motion. As concerns Nica's Dream, I said that it was the choice of tempo, NOT NECESSARILY BLAKEY'S DRUMMING, that made the tune sound sleepy and was too slow (something you agreed with: "languid"). Still, if you want to know what is meant by playing ahead or behind the beat all you need to do is read some of my comments of about two weeks ago. However, I will repeat myself: Playing ahead or behind the beat applies mostly (not always) to players other than drummers since it is usually the drummer who has the main role in establishing the pulse (beat) in a jazz band. In some bands the player most in control of the pulse can be the bass player and the drummer plays more TO the bass player's pulse. Still, in some other bands it is more democratic and the rhythm section establishes the pulse together without anyone player having the upper hand. Blakey, to my ears (especially when he plays brushes) tends to play in a style that is very relaxed and which doesn't propel the pulse as much as other drummers. Hence my use of the term "lazy". I prefer a drummer who plays more incisively and with a lighter touch and more forward momentum. At the opposite end of Blakey's style is a drummer like Buddy Rich who played with an almost manic sense of forward motion; I dislike that as much as the lazy approach. I love drummers like Max Roach, Tony Williams and Roy Haynes; crisp, light touch, lots of forward momentum; but, controlled. "The beat" is the pulse that an ensemble establishes during a performace of a tune. A horn player has a certain amount of latitude on the front side of "the beat" as well as on the backside and a little latitude is not perceived as behind or ahead of the beat, but as a stylistic choice to play in a relaxed fashion or in a rhythmically aggressive fashion. At a certain point too much deviation from "the beat" established by the rhythm section is perceived as obviously behind or ahead of the beat and COULD be considered objectionable: Behind the beat: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Znm88X3BVSIAhead of the beat (Paquito's solo only): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C6lKkQzCntI |
Frogman, you're turning what should be a pleasurable experience into a job; I'm retired and have no desire to work, not even for money. Call me when this gets to be a fun thing to do.
Enjoy the music.
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No, O-10, that may be what you feel; but it is not the case. Why, then, do you ask the questions; if you don't want the answers? I'll make you a deal, don't ask me questions directly and I won't give you any answers directly. I am sincerely sorry if our interaction causes you to not have "fun"; that is certainly not my intention.
The "problem" can be boiled down to a couple of basic things, and this has been discussed (argued) before: Jazz and any other serious music is high art with a tremendous amount of very interesting "stuff" going on; it resists being kept only in the realm of "fun". I think that your idea of "fun" in discussing jazz is, in part, to be able to postulate and present things in a manner that conveys a certain sense of "authority" and ignore much of this interesting stuff; and, then, you recoil and take matters very personally when there is disagreement. The disagreement leads to attempts at discussions and these "discussions" lead to the opening of many "cans or worms" (those pesky things called "facts"). Underneath all this is the basic conflict created by your stance that it is one's subjective impressions that tell the whole story and the stance that considers subjectivity as only part of the story. I do have to say that I find irony in our recent discussions and your refusal to accept my subjective opinions while demanding answers to why I feel that way (Thomas' yodeling). Lastly, when there is disagreement, there is a tendency to lace your comments with a certain amount of sarcasm and provocation. This last thing is relatively unimportant as we are all, hopefully, big boys and girls, but this doesn't promote good dialogue.
So.... there, that was my analysis of the "problem". Once again, what you may feel is another long-winded anti-fun comment. From my perspective, if one can't identify a problem and see it for what it is there's no chance in hell that it will be solved. And, I am truly interested in solving the problem because as I have said many times before, this is your thread and I respect and commend you for starting it. As before, and in deference to you, if you want me to simply go away I will do so; just say the words. In the meantime, I encourage you to return to your retrospective on Horace Silver; as Rok said, there is much work to do and I look forward to your comments.
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Rok, I LOVED that clip. Had not heard that record and one of the reasons that I look forward to O-10’s retrospective; as much Silver as I have heard there’s a lot to catch up on. I think the title of this record is perfect timing for the recent squabbling; always good to keep one’s sense of humor. I find your comments interesting and I agree that Silver’s "loudest voice" is as a composer/band leader and, as individualistic as he was, less so as a player; just a few bars of that tune and one knows it’s a Silver composition. You’re right, Kisor went on to JALC and he sounds great on this record. Jimmy Green also sounds very good. To be frank, I am surprised how good both of these guys sound. Another testament to Wynton as a bandleader; he certainly knows how to pick them. I am...lets just say..."intrigued" by your comment: ****It’s a sad indictment of modern Jazz that this was as good as anything else being played at the time it was released. You would have thought Silver would have been considered ’vintage’ by 2000.**** If we agree that this is good jazz, why the "indictment" of modern jazz if there is modern jazz as good as this (there is)? Moreover, much has been made on this thread about jazz "not needing to change". Here we have a great example of really good jazz in a more traditional hard-bop style and recorded in 1999. I don’t see the problem. I think the moral of the story is that "vintage" and "modern" can live side by side as long as the quality is good. Thanks for the clip and the introduction to the record; this is one I have to get. Speaking of vintage (very!) and "side by side": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1oKBhSOjppc |
Indictment: Just my way of saying, Silver was Silver, just as he always was, and his music was still better than most , or all, in my opinion, Jazz being played almost 50 years later. Sort of like Magic Johnson coming back into the NBA today and being MVP, leading scorer and average a triple double for the entire season. That would reflect badly on the current NBA players, or maybe, just reflect on the greatness of magic. The Frogman: I have seen conductors use the regular sized batons and even no baton at all. But this? WTF, over? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZDiaRZy0Ak&list=RDdZDiaRZy0AkCheers |
****Sort of like Magic Johnson coming back into the NBA today and being MVP, leading scorer and average a triple double for the entire season. That would reflect badly on the current NBA players, or maybe, just reflect on the greatness of magic****
Good point and good analogy. And as much as we may resist the simplicity of it, and as much as we have heard it, isn't it amazing how it always comes back to this simple comment?:
"There's only two kinds of music, good music and the other kind".
Doesn't matter the period, style or genre; it either tells a good story or it doesn't.
Batons:
Even before I opened the link I knew it was going to be of Gergiev and his infamous toothpick. First of all, imo, and that of many many musicians, Gergiev is one of the greatest musicians on the planet; he is amazing. I had the great pleasure of playing under him once performing Mussorgsky's "Pictures At An Exibition" and I can comfortably say it was possibly my most memorable musical experience ever. The job of a conductor is far more than the waving of a baton. Much of the work leading up to the performance happens in rehearsal and even conductors with less than ideal conducting technique can conduct a fabulous performance because of a particular talent in conveying to musicians his/her musical vision for a piece of music and this sometimes has little to do with the waving of the stick. Some conductors don't use a baton at all and in the performance that I mentioned Gergiev didn't use a baton. He is known to players as having a very idiosyncratic conducting technique; especially this little "shake" that he makes with his hand which can be maddening since it can give "false cues". You mentioned "magic":
Some conductors simply have "the magic" to convey what they want from players and are able to establish a musical performance-relationship in a way that is hard to describe; sometimes they can put their arms down altogether and still convey a great sense of pulse with their bodies; the magic. The toothpick:
Think about it for a moment. If a player sees a conducting pattern that is, say, three feet wide in any direction, vs one which is only a couple of inches wide (toothpick), with which is the "margin for error" greater? A smaller beat pattern is more concise, lets the player see exactly where the beat is and creates a potentially more concentrated rhythmic pulse; which is what the opening of Bolero is all about. I will admit that his use of the toothpick is a bit extreme, but I believe that is his reasoning. Of course, with certain music ("Pictures") or parts of a certain piece, the toothpick won't work; notice how in Bolero, as the piece progresses, his pattern gets larger and the fact that he is still holding the toothpick is pretty irrelevant.
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Frogman, I've liked music all my life. When I became interested in audio equipment, I subscribed to "Stereo Review"; Julian Hirsch of "Hirsch-Houck Laboratories" was my guru, and his philosophy was; "if you can't measure it, it ain't worth talking about"; consequently I purchased my audio equipment based on specifications.
When my Phase Linear 4000 went on the blink, I decided to find out what those crazy people called "audiophiles" who paid crazy money for stereo equipment were all about. That's when I visited my first "High end salon", and I was blown away; this thing called a CJ PV 10 was a little pre-amp that sounded better than anything I had heard before, although it's specs were not as good as my Phase Linear.
After that, I discovered I could hear beyond what any test equipment could measure; that's when I became what I call a "subjectivist". Now, I base everything on my "subjective" senses, and it works for me, and I'll give you an example of how this worked just yesterday.
As you know, reel to reel tape decks are very complex pieces of equipment. My "pitch control" quit functioning properly and needed adjusting. The instructions in the repair manual were straight forward and simple, except for one thing; I didn't have the repair equipment.
(1) connect a digital counter to the output jack.
(2) Set tape speed selector to 38cm/s
(3) Set pitch control to on in center position.
(4) Playback test tape QZZOW380EX (no problem if I had one)
(5) Read the output frequency, and confirm that output frequency is 3000hz
(6) If it is not 3000hz, adjust VR904 so that it becomes 3000HZ
(7) After adjustment described above, turning pitch control to maximum and minimum position, confirm that more than 3180 hz is obtained at its maximum position,and less than 2820hz at its minimum position.
As easy as falling off a log, providing you have the test equipment.
I put on a Nina Simone tape, plugged my earphones in, and proceeded to adjust VR 904. This was a live recording, and when I could hear the tinkle of ice cubs in the background, I knew I had it right.
I look and see with my third eye, and listen with my inner ear; my "subjective" senses do the measuring, and that's how I function.
Enjoy the music.
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*****
After that, I discovered I could hear beyond what any test equipment could measure;*****
Or put another way, that's when I begin to drink the Kool-aid. Kool-aid is more expensive than people realize.
Should have stayed with Julian.
Cheers
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The Frogman:
Thanks for the info on conductors and their conducting techniques.
Cheers |
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"Nica's Dream" is very important to me for sentimental reasons. Frogman stated that his preferred version is the template by which all others should be judged "to paraphrase him" I strongly disagree. This might be my favorite; he described it as "sleepy and lacking energy" If that's not provocative, I don't know what is. After that statement, I challenge his credibility as a "Jazz Aficionado". Now what makes his statement so absurd, is that Horace Silver is on piano on both version. Figure that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lju13U1zEEThe one below is by "Dee Dee Bridgewater" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwvuGJPQBNwI have no idea how you compare the two, but Frogman will figure out a way. Enjoy the music. |
