I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
"Silver's own version of Nica's Dream is my favorite of the two; by a long shot! Blakey's version is too slow. There is no law that says that a tune can't work played at a tempo different from the one the composer intended, but this is a case when the composer's tempo is so clearly the better one that it makes Blakey's version sound sleepy by comparison and lacking energy. Then, there's Blue Mitchell's solo on Silver's version; that alone makes it the better one for me."
Above is exactly what you posted; when "Horace Silver" composed the tune; Horace Silver played piano on both versions; except, to me, Blakey and "The Jazz Messengers" kick it way up. How do you know that the composer didn't decide to slow it down a notch, since he was the same on both versions?
Evidently you're accustomed to teaching grade school kids who can't afford to get provoked. I'm going to leave it at that.
If you think Mitchell's version is better than Donald Byrds, put them up for a vote; we don't have no dictators here.
"either you are a person of extremely limited intellect to continually misunderstand and/or distort the meaning of things or you’re simply an ass"
If that's not provocative, I don't know what is; this can continue until the cows come home, and since I'm in St. Louis, that could take awhile.
"Should have stayed with Julien", you got that right. I can no longer afford the Kool aid, but once you start, you can't stop.
I long for those good old Stereo Review days, I still have a few; I really get a kick out of the low prices of equipment. Even today, the music reviews are better than "stereophile", and I really got a kick out of those "Rodriguez" cartoons.
Sorry, can't do. Attempts at dialogue with you, O-10, are utterly pointless. In my opinion you have shown that your intentions are not good. Either you deliberately distort what has been said or you are incapable of understanding. Either way, pointless.
Excellent playing by all, but not The silver we all know and Love. This one was recorded just before 'Jazz has a sense of humor'. The Silver CD I play the least.
Acman posted "Graffiti Blues" by Blue Mitchell on 4/11/96, and it was released in 1973. Me and my buddies had what we called the jazz posse in 1973. When one of us bought a new album, the first thing we did, was to get on the phone and call for a gathering of "The Jazz Posse". Of course we did a lot more than just review a record, maybe we sampled some good wine, or whatever else that was available for sampling; anyway we really looked forward to these gatherings. One of the reasons I'm mentioning this, is because of the "alert" resources I had available in 1973, anytime a boss LP came up that I didn't know about, there was a very good reason for it; either it wasn't released at that time, or there was almost no exposure.
Another reason I'm mentioning this is because someone asked why didn't some of us buy "new" music. When I'm constantly discovering music like this, I don't have funds for new music, another reason is, this is so much better than "most" new music; not all new music of course, but rarely has anyone come up with any new music that's worthy of my limited funds.
Who was the best; Donald Byrd or Blue Mitchell? Does it really matter?
4:58pm Yes I did. The cartoons were one of the best things about the magazine. That was back in the day when Audiophiles were secure enough to make fun of their own behavior. Before they got mean and nasty.
*****
Who was the best; Donald Byrd or Blue Mitchell?*****
Hmmmmmmmm If the choice is between those two, I would say, Louis Armstrong? Lee Morgan? Freddie Hubbard? Art Farmer? Roy Eldridge? 'Sweets' Edison? Clifford Brown? Clark Terry? Miles Davis? The JALC Trumpet section? And the list goes on and on.
Acman, I thank you for another fantastic contribution; Horace Silver is really digging in on this one; the way he's sweating, I hope that piano is waterproof. Everybody is playing at such a high energy level; I don't see how they can maintain the pace. Each individual artist is a star on this one. It's nice that "Song For My father" fell in after this one.
Keep up the good work; with everybody contributing we're getting everything we would want as a tribute to Horace Silver without all of it coming from one person.
Alex, I really enjoyed those clean recordings of Louis Armstrong; it's funny, but I'm so accustomed to the noise, clicks, and pops when I hear Louis Armstrong, that clean recordings of him sound strange.
In regard to the trumpet players, we share the same likes and dislikes; I think it's foolish to get in a who is the best argument, but I seem to get drawn into them sometime. I have heard some very good sounds made by FH, but he's a long way from my favorite.
Fabulous! Thank you for that, Alex. How can music that documents the beginnings of everything that’s talked about on this thread be "off topic"? It IS the topic. To understand and appreciate the music of that period is the way to best understand and appreciate the music of later periods. Have never heard Armstrong’s beautiful sound and fantastic rhythmic verve so clearly. Also never heard as clearly details like the way that the saxophone section match each other’s vibrato to create that wonderful sound like one instrument instead of three or four; practically a lost art. Important stuff. Thanks again.
This is from "Silver N' Percussion" I think it's fairly interesting. It came out in 77 and not too bad for that time frame in his career. Babatunde Olatunji on percussion makes this one worth a listen.
"Too third world"; but I like third world, a drum hasn't been made that I don't like. I admit the guy on the cover didn't look much like Horace Tavares Silver, until you took a closer look, but everything must change.
I've been listening to "Bird's Best Bop", and I must admit, that was quite a switch from "Silver N' Percussion". That compilation brought up one question "How could one man turn the universe around in such a short time"? Birds music never gets old, and it's the only "Bop" I still like.
"Blue Note" pushed their artists to produce original, visceral jazz of the sort attainable only with time and hard work. The music that arose in this atmosphere was like no other."
Does that mean that "Blue Note" can take credit for the music that was produced? "Blue Note" selected the artists who had a very rare talent, that no amount of hard work could produce. I was fortunate enough to know two of those artists personally, and my friend who didn't practice that summer was one of them.
The reality of a any highly regarded jazz artist; they had the talent, plain and simple; "either you got it, or you no got it". I can think of an artist who got world wide publicity, went to Julliard, played with the very best jazz artists around, but didn't measure up when he had his own group, and got out on his own. He could play the trumpet better than anyone around; nobody disagreed with that, not even other professional trumpet players, but leading your own group means coming up with your own original music that's good "sometime"; like Horace Taveres Silver.
SUBMITTED BY PETER.CROSBY ON DECEMBER 31, 2008 - 11:47AM
On December 29th, Freddie Hubbard, one of the last great jazz trumpet players, died after a heart attack at age 70. Growing up, I was a huge fan of Freddie. I used to listen to his records and play along (did I mention that I started playing trumpet when I was nine? Cuz I did).
I liked his fat tone and his melodic solos, but ironically, hated his song choices. In fact, I felt that he played best when he soloed on other people’s songs (“Zanzibar” by Billy Joel, for example).
But what upsets me the most about his death is that the Media—when they learn a jazz musician has died or done something newsworthy—immediately phones up the only jazz musician they’ve ever heard of, Wynton Marsalis, to comment. I swear they have the guy on speed-dial.
And, while Wynton is a skilled musician and brilliant self-marketer, he is not a brilliant jazz musician (unlike his older brother, Bradford). You see, whereas Freddie’s playing style was languid, relaxed and fat, Wynton’s style is overly busy, uptight, stilted, soulless, cold and technical. As a classical trumpeter, he’s extremely proficient. But Wynton’s forays into jazz are like Paris Hilton’s forays into acting—painful and unnecessary. So asking him to comment on jazz is like asking Britney Spears to comment on parenting.
What’s worse, he doesn’t just show-off by playing too many notes himself, he teaches upcoming young trumpeters to show-off by playing too many notes, too. It’s like the way Whitney Houston, albeit unwittingly, taught a generation of young girls such as Christina and Britney how to “sing” through their noses.
This was driven home for me when I recently attended a holiday concert at Davies Symphony Hall in San Francisco by Irving Mayfield. I had never heard of him before, but I wasn’t thrilled to learn that he was a protege of Wynton’s. Still, since Marsalis said he studied Freddie’s playing style without learning anything, I hoped that perhaps Mr. Mayfield was an equally poor student of Wynton’s playing style. No such luck. Mayfield has the same note-heavy, technical approach his mentor does.
Sadly, aside from Arturo Sandoval, I have found few living horn players who can play at the level of past jazz trumpet greats like Lee Morgan, Blue Mitchell, Clifford Brown, Chet Baker, or Fats Navarro.
And now, to that list, I must regrettably add Freddie.
Although these are Peter Crosby's thoughts, they are "sympatico" with my own.
Rok, the aristocracy has made the decision in regard to Wynton Marsalis; I guess that's because he can play classical music and went to Juilliard.
Everybody, including me, put Wynton in the class with all the past mentioned great trumpet players when he left Blakey; it was Wynton's albums when he got out on his own, that told who he was; he was a we wanted him to be, that didn't have it.
The aristocracy needs some kind of hand in the works on jazz; the aristocracy wants a foothold in everything, but at the end of the day, the same people who have always had the final decision in who's who in jazz still have it, and what the aristocracy says is "counterfeit".
They can put it in every news headline if they want to, and it will still be "counterfeit". Who's who in jazz is determined by the people on the street, not by the aristocracy.
Rok, Peter Crosby is a nobody who posted that rant in his personal blog. His ill-informed opinions reveal a lack of depth of knowledge and feeling for what the music is really all about, and the attempt at an "authoritative" style in his writing cannot make up for the shallowness. Sounds familiar.
For me, the proof of my contention is demonstrated most obviously in two items in his writing: one, some would dismiss as a simple oversight; but, for me, is a sign of lack of attention to detail which will inevitably be demonstrated in the thought process. One would think that anyone who devotes so much energy to putting down Wynton would know the how to spell his brother Branford’s name. The other is far more important:
****Sadly, aside from Arturo Sandoval, I have found few living horn players who can play at the level of past jazz trumpet greats like Lee Morgan, Blue Mitchell, Clifford Brown, Chet Baker, or Fats Navarro.****
Arturo Sandoval ?! Is he kidding? I don’t consider Wynton to be one of the great jazz trumpet players and have said so before; but he can play and is a brilliant trumpeter (among other things). But, let’s try and keep things in perspective folks. Sandoval ?! First, he rants against Wynton’s supposed "overplaying"; but, Sandoval? Also a very accomplished trumpet player (but without Wynton’s technical finesse), but who’s playing is usually tasteless and bombastic while leaning on his amazing technique and taking every opportunity to show off his super-high chops even when it’s completely inappropriate musically. One of the least impressive of the top current jazz trumpet players; unless one likes bombast.
The guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but he thinks very highly of himself. A not uncommon problem. I was impressed, however, that he mentioned Blue Mitchell as one of the greats 😉
For the opposite of bombastic trumpet playing (iow, tastefully inventive, warm, inviting) check out Tom Harrell on this, one of my favorite later Silver recordings (apart from some questionable intonation from the flutes). Bob Berg on tenor is his usual fierce self, always on the verge of going over the top for me; but not quite:
O-10, In my experience, no matter what level of talent a person has in any given area, it took years of hard work to refine that talent into an art form. The hard work never guaranties success, but lack of hard work will guaranty failure.
Of the talented people I have known, the ones who did not work to master there craft, were the underachievers who never lived up to their promise. They then blamed someone else or " Luck" for their failure.
We just look at life from different angles. I guess it takes all kinds, as my Grandmother used to say.
Acman, we absolutely do not look at life from different angles, my friend "according to Wiki" started when he was a child, and worked all of his life, that's all he did. That summer he was was performing three nights a week and had absolutely no need to practice.
My point is; the average person could work from the time he was born until he died, and never be able to do what "my friend" did. Have you ever seen and heard, some of the very best improvising jazz musicians perform; not one sheet of musical paper in sight. Now I know there are many who say, "they just couldn't read music" and I say to them, "they just can't improvise jazz at a high enough level to be performing in front of a crowd of critical jazz fans".
No Acman we don't have different points of view, just different observations of reality.
I forgot to mention, he performed on a stage "live" in front of what has to be one of the biggest crowds in the world, that's the stage under the arch in St. Louis on the 4th of July.
Frogman, I just realized your problem, you were the "Grand Puba" of jazz on Audiogon until after years of this thread, now you feel threatened. As far as I'm concerned, you are still "The Grand Puba" of jazz on Audiogon.
There is something in psychology referred to as "projection". Several times over the last several pages of this thread I have had that word on the tip of my tongue because it is what I have felt the OP often did in his attempts at rebuttals of my opinions and comments. I did not use the word because I felt it would be too provocative. I guess that in my mind things have reached a new low in the civility scale so as to make the use of that word not seem as inappropriate; how unfortunate. I have absolutely no problem with rebuttals of my opinions; I welcome them. What I do have a problem with is the gratuitous and thoughtless "jabs" that are so clearly a simple and deliberate need to be contrarian so as to "show" some sense of "authority", and that unfortunately hamper his own thread’s potential. That is the extent of my "having trouble" with it; beyond that, I respect anyone’s desire to come across as idiotic. Two observations that are emblematic of this constant conflic (and, I point them out again only in the hope that when an issue is recognized it may be resolved):
The "Grand Poobah" comment: I have made it very clear that I have no interest in being considered any such thing, and from my point of view, the idea that I would feel "threatened" by a challenge to that supposed mantel is, well.....I will let the substance of my comments about music do the rest of the explaining. However, re "projection": to me it’s obvious who’s slide show is making the most "noise". Then there is the issue of substance (or lack of):
I made two comments, respectively, about two things that I thought were fatal flaws in the Crosby article. One, I conceded that it was, while important to me (spelling), pretty insignificant overall; the other, very significant and potentially the subject of an interesting exchange of ideas. Do I need to point out which of my two comments received commentary?
Most of the stuff Crosby said about Wynton's playing was first said by Miles years ago, when I think Miles did feel under threat from the young hotshot / upshot.
I bet if I asked Crosby, "who was Charles Mingus?" he would probably say "he was a bass player". Which is true, and almost irrelevant. Same with Wynton.
If you don't call on Wynton for all things Jazz, who do you call? He knows the history, he has the education and the background, he knows the music, and most important, he can articulate that knowledge to the public. He looks and speaks the part. The importance of that cannot be over stated.
Is there someone more competent on Trumpet? Enlighten us? Don't like his playing? Too bad. Deal with it. He's the man. The face of Jazz in this country. In the world.
There is one thing I know about this country for sure. Money talks, BS walks. He would not be where he is if he were not the best man for the job. Too much is at stake for BS.
Your article was 'barber shop talk'. Good way to past the time as you wait for 'next'.
"There is one thing I know about this country for sure. Money talks, BS walks. He would not be where he is if he were not the best man for the job. Too much is at stake for BS."
Those are the truest words you ever spoke, "Whatever the aristocracy says, is what they say it is; end of all arguments.
"Smokey Robinson" was when "Mo-Town" made Detroit one of the top cities in the country, and I was there; it seemed that everybody had a new car, fine clothes, nice home, and lived good.
Now I know what a "Grand-Poobah" is. let's make Thursday, any thing goes day.
Mapman, with a headdress like that, there could be no doubt who "The Grand-Poobah" was.
Art Pepper knew how important "The word on the street" is in jazz. So much so, that he overheard some "jive turkeys" bad mouthing him, and alleged reverse racism; what he didn't know is that the word on the street had given him his proper place in jazz as an alto sax man, and his record "Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section" confirmed that.
Jazz musicians are the most independent individuals I've ever met; Miles said something to Red Garland, that he shouldn't have said, and Red was gone, just like that. For better or worse, they live life like they see it, and don't have no "Boss Man"
Red Garland, Paul Chambers and Philly Joe Jones, would not have recorded with Art Pepper, if he wasn't qualified.
Rok, Sun Ra had that same group together for some time, they even lived in a big house together; they were the people who put life into his insanity, and made it bearable. June Tyson was a vocalist and dancer who understood his insanity, and helped to make it real. (insanity is a bad word, but that's the only one that came to mind)
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