Jazz for aficionados
"Jazz Aficionados"; this is "Idle Moments", it is my favorite tune by Grant Green,could you evaluate it in your personal language; promise I wont get offended, even if you trash it; however, I do have the right to question your "authenticity" as an aficionado. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwaFDFP7m_E Enjoy the music. |
I would like to, first and foremost, commend Rok for his valiant effort at diplomacy. In some ways it would be easy for me to walk away from this thread and not continue to get mired in what is turning out to be contentious and, worse, pathetic on a level that I never thought it would reach. I hope Rok’s advise that we return to the music is heeded. I do find it highly ironic that while there have been many great posts and comments made about music over the last couple of days, it is the thread’s very OP who has ignored them and who seems intent on dragging the thread back into the mud. I point this out, and make the following comments, not to further participate in the mudslinging but in a last ditch effort to put an end to this nonsense. I have proven it to my satisfaction that I could, as I have done over the last few days, simply ignore O-10 and go about my interaction with other participants; however, I find this approach pathetic itself. I will return to simply ignoring O-10’s provocations if this last ditch effort is not effective and simply see how long I can stand this other, childish, approach. I say this with the full knowledge that it is obvious to me that O-10 is the one who, since he can’t get himself to say the words: "Frogman and Learsfool I want you to leave the thread", is "on a mission" to get us to do just that by making it so distasteful to be here that there is no other alternative. On the other hand there may be something else altogether at work here 😁 ****Learsfool, I’ve got nothing else to do, I can play this game all night long.**** Bingo!!! O-10, this will truly be my last effort to reach out to you to stop the nonsense. As I said previously, I can go back to simply ignoring your snipes and interact with the other participants. I point out the following to clear the air about certain misunderstandings and to, hopefully, help you to see why this contentiousness happens. Consider this an olive branch of sorts; and, from my vantage point I have always offered you olive branches when the going gets rough. The MAWRON comment (sigh!): It was you who used the term to describe what you THOUGHT Learsfool and I thought you were. I then quickly pointed out to you that, no, I didn’t think that was what you were (olive branch). Now, allow me to explain how it all started: You posted a music clip by Previn and stated that you "searched for classical music examples by Previn and this is all that I could find". You followed that comment with the clip of "Like Young". Upon searching Previn on YouTube literally dozens of clips come up; so, what is so outlandish about someone assuming that you thought that the clip was of classical music; especially when that someone proudly proclaims that he knows nothing about classical music. I commented that it was not classical music and that I thought it was "pretty bland stuff" and "no better than what one hears in elevator from Kenny G". That was the point at which, as always, the s&+t hit the fan. This one little "controversy" is a great example of what happens time and time again and it gives many further examples of specific problems with how, from my vantage point, you then go on to distort what actually transpires and how you then insist on keeping the interaction in the mud. I could offer many examples like this, but I will keep it to this one: 1. Re a much later, divisive and negative comment by you: Especially considering how you, yourself, have always been eager to jump in and join dialogue between other members, your comment that I "had no business commenting on" the "Like Young" clip is completely uncalled for and unreasonable. I was under the impression that this is an open forum for anyone to participate in any discussion. The reaction does, however, give insight into a certain mindset. 2. Re a recent comment by you on the idea that I thought "Like Young" sounded like Kenny G. Please pay attention now, this is a KEY POINT and just one of the problems with not having any interest in speaking the language of music and, hence, not understanding nuance in the language so as to be able to make important distinctions: I never said it sounded like Kenny G; I said it was no better than Kenny G. If you can’t understand the difference then I am truly wasting my time, but I will persevere (olive branch). The above goes to a key problem which is actually twofold: O-10, you seem to feel that any one artist who you really like is incapable of putting out substandard work simply because much of the other work is good. Whether it be Grant Green, Previn, whoever, if any negative comment is made about a clip by that artist, you react very negatively and defensively. Moreover, and to the second part of the problem, well....I will describe it by way of example: What, in heaven’s name, does the fact that Ella Fitzgerald recorded a good version of "Like Young" have to do with the fact that Previn’s version sounds like the Muzak (I’m showing my age) one would hear in an elevator? How on earth does the fact that Fitzgerald’s is good make Previn’s any less bad. There is example after example of this kind of, sorry...but there is no other way to describe it....sophomoric view of music. 3. For the record, it WAS Learsfool who I referred to in my comment about the MAWRON word since in O-10’s original comment in which he used that word he addressed Learsfool and I. However, I was clear and deliberate in my later comment in saying "....other esteemed aficionado who I will not involve in this bs" and I also made clear that these were MY opinions. O-10, you then proceeded, in a very nasty move, to suggest that I was speaking for Learsfool. That move alone should have been enough for me to never want to interact with you again. But, alas....(olive branch). 4. O-10, you tend to want to see only what you want to see. Your calls for putting things "up for a vote" is a good example of this: You go on a tear after I simply said that I liked Mitchell’s solo on a Blackey clip and that I felt it was so good that it alone made that clip my favorite over A COMPETELY DIFFERENT PERFORMANCE in which Donald Byrd soloed. You then go on to assume that I thought Mitchell was a better player than Byrd and wanted to put thigs "up for a vote". I had already made my feelings about the two players clear, Rok was impressively diplomatic about it, and Alex and Acman3 both commented that they preferred Mitchell (sorry guys for having to involve you). Then, days later you still wanted to put it up for a vote! As someone here likes to say, wtf? 5. Sometimes the dust seems to be settling and it seems that we can go back to discussing music, jokes get made, I post a clip of O-10 dancing in the dessert 😉 (olive branch), etc. ; and, here comes O-10 again with some little snide comment stirring up the pot again. Most recently: "obsessed musicians". 6. O-10, let me be clear: I DONT think the "problem" is that you are not interested in learning about music. I am, believe it or not, perfectly ok with that. The problem is that you don’t want to allow others to speak the language of music; not a reasonable expectation. You, yourself, want to be able to critique others’ music choices and use terms with negative connotations like "soulless", "intellectual", "stereotypical jazz" etc., but you don’t want to hear why others feel the way they do about music that you like. Not a reasonable expectation. Please try to recognize how just about every recent post by you is laced with at least one snide or negative comment or insinuation; that approach will achieve nothing positive and will certainly discourage anyone from interacting. Anyway, I could go on and on with example after example. I hope this diatribe serves some good purpose (olive branch). As I said, it will be my last OF THE SORT....directed specifically at you anyway. BTW, "The Subterraneans" score I thought is terrific; thanks for that (olive branch). As I said in my comments about "Like Young", Previn is a "terrific musician" (olive branch). One of the most well rounded and versatile in the business. As Learsfool points out, he has also been inconsistent and some of his work is not particularly interesting imo. Yes, he plays good jazz piano, but he is no Kenny Barron. He is a very good film score composer, but he is no Bernard Hermann or Leonard Bernstein. He is a good classical music conductor, but certainly no Carlos Kleiber. BTW, when I listened to your clip of "The Subterraneans" I noticed that the credits credit Bud Shank for the alto work. When I listened I said to myself that does not sound like Bud Shank it sounds like Art Pepper . I looked into it and the fact is that the alto player was Art Pepper; fyi. I am now ready to get back to the music. Everyone have a great weekend! |
What we have here is a case of bebop overload. Let's chill. I double dog dare anyone, to say these guys aren't great. You can hear and see this in person in the NYC subway system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWHAOPGOsYo Cheers |
Will wonders ever cease? The Fuzz jamming!! They should place themselves under arrest?? Stick to catching crooks?? But seriously, I think it's a great thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjiM2Clp9jo Cheers |
Can you really have Bebop overload? Just in case…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX2h9enqYJw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MrY0WzihKY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAnG5hYPkTg |
The controversy involves "Like Young" by Andre Previn. Frogman said it sounds like elevator music; do you agree? 04-19-2016 6:37am O-10, remember your comment about my supposed feeling that everything you say has to do with me? Now, remember that word "projection"? Now, again, remember that word that you used, with unfounded indignation, describing what you thought I (and another esteemed aficionado who I will not include in this bs) felt that you were? You know.....that word that rhymes with "boron"? I am saddened to have to report that I believe you were correct in using that word. **** Frogman is saying that you "The esteemed aficionado" agreed with him in regard to that word that Rhymes with "boron"; is this true? That came about because he said I thought "Like Young" by Previn was classical music. Learsfool, you nor Frogman read my posts very well; the controversy is about "Like Young" by Andre Previn, is that clear? This is what you posted; You have repeatedly proclaimed your ignorance of music and that you are proud of it and will never study it. You simply do not speak the language, and don't care. This is precisely why this is not a "controversy" to anyone but you, and also why there can be no actual debate or even meaningful dialogue with you about music. You can't really tell us WHY you like one performance over another, or one version of a tune better than another, because you don't speak the language. But you do get mad if someone says they don't agree with you, especially when they have good reasons. All I can say is that this is the price you must pay for maintaining your ignorance. frogman. How many times do I have to repeat; "I have no interest in learning music". Why is that a problem with you and Frogman? Now you are telling me that's the price I pay for maintaining my ignorence. I say that's the price you pay for not being able to read. The controversy was about "Like Young" by Andre Previn, would you care to evaluate that? orpheus10 OP 2,811 posts 04-22-2016 9:45pm Frogman and Learsfool, this post proves you both are totally "Out to Lunch"; since that's a New York phrase, I know you both know what it means. From Wikipedia, André Previn (2012) André George Previn, KBE (/ˈprɛvɪn/; born Andreas Ludwig Priwin; April 6, 1929)[1] is a German-American pianist, conductor, and composer. He is considered one of the most versatile musicians in the world and is the winner of four Academy Awards for his film work and ten Grammy Awards for his recordings (and one more for his Lifetime Achievement). Learsfool, how many awards have you and Frogman won between the two of you? Previn made dozens of jazz recordings as leader and sideman, primarily during two periods of his career: from 1945 to 1967, and then again from 1989 to 2001, with just a handful of recordings in between and afterward (while he focused his career on conducting/recording classical music, and later on composing contemporary art music). Previn also did several crossover recordings with classical singers like Eileen Farrell, Leontyne Price or Kiri Te Kanawa, too, as well as several Easy-Listening records with piano and orchestra in the 1960s. Like Oscar Peterson, whom Previn admires a lot,[8] and Bill Evans – or more recently Keith Jarrett, Brad Mehldau or Esbjörn Svensson – Previn has worked a lot as a trio pianist (usually with bass and drums). Following his performance on Shelly Manne's huge hit record Modern Jazz Performances of Songs from My Fair Lady in 1956, Previn released several albums of jazz interpretations of songs from broadway musicals as well as several solo piano recordings focussed on the songbooks of popular composers (André Previn Plays Songs by Vernon Duke, 1958; André Previn Plays That Old Black Magic, Come Rain or Come Shine, Stormy Weather, Over the Rainbow and Other Wonderful Songs by Harold Arlen, 1960; Ballads. Solo Jazz Standards, 1996; Alone: Ballads for Solo Piano, 2007), the late recording of songs by Harold Arlen with singer Sylvia McNair and bass player David Finck (Come Rain or Shine. The Harold Arlen Songbook, 1996), and his TV shows with Oscar Peterson (1974)[9] – which Marlon Brando simply called "one of the greatest hours I ever saw on television"[10] – and Ella Fitzgerald (1979)[11] respectively. Jazz critic and historian Ted Gioia wrote in his book about West Coast Jazz, the scene to which Previn belonged: [His] projects varied greatly in terms of quality and jazz content, but at his best Previn could be a persuasive, moving jazz musician. [...] Despite his deep roots in symphonic music, Previn largely steered clear of Third Stream classicism in his jazz work, aiming more at an earthy, hard-swinging piano style at times reminiscent of Horace Silver. Long before his eventual retreat from his jazz work, Previn had become something of a popularizer of jazz rather than a serious practitioner of the music. At his best, however, his music reflected a strong indigenous feel for the jazz idiom.[12] And Dizzy Gillespie has stated, He has the flow, you know, which a lot of guys don't have and won't ever get. Yeah. I heard him play and I knew. A lot of guys, they have the technique, the harmonic sense. They've got the perfect coordination. And, yeah, all that's necessary. But you need something more, you know? Even if you only make an oooooooo, like that, you got to have the flow.[13] Jazz Recordings as leader/co-leader[edit] Collaboration (RCA Victor, 1955) - with Shorty Rogers Double Play! (Contemporary, 1957) with Russ Freeman Pal Joey (Contemporary, 1957) Gigi (Contemporary, 1958) André Previn Plays Songs by Vernon Duke (Contemporary, 1958) King Size! (Contemporary, 1959) André Previn Plays Songs by Jerome Kern (1959) West Side Story (Contemporary, 1959) The Subterraneans (Soundtrack) (MGM, 1960) Like Previn! (Contemporary, 1960) André Previn Plays Songs by Harold Arlen (Contemporary, 1960) André Previn and J.J. Johnson Play Mack the Knife and Bilboa Song and Other Music from the Threepenny Opera, Happy End, Mahagonny (1961, with J.J. Johnson, Red Mitchell and Frank Capp) Duet (1962, with Doris Day, Red Mitchell and Frank Capp) A Different Kind of Blues (1980, with Itzhak Perlman, Jim Hall, Red Mitchell and Shelly Manne) Nice Work if You Can Get It (1983, with Ella Fitzgerald and Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen) After Hours (1989, with Joe Pass and Ray Brown) Uptown (1990, with Mundell Lowe and Ray Brown) Old Friends (1992, with Mundell Lowe and Ray Brown) Kiri Sidetracks: The Jazz Album (1992, with Kiri Te Kanawa, Mundell Lowe and Ray Brown) André Previn and Friends Play Show Boat (1995, with Mundell Lowe, Ray Brown and Grady Tate) Sure Thing. The Jerome Kern Songbook (1996, with Sylvia McNair and David Finck) Ballads. Solo Jazz Standards (1996) Come Rain or Shine. The Harold Arlen Songbook (1996, with Sylvia McNair and David Finck) Jazz at the Musikverein (1997, with Mundell Lowe and Ray Brown) We Got Rhythm. A Gershwin Songbook (1998, with David Finck) We Got It Good and That Ain't Bad. An Ellington Songbook (1999, with David Finck) Live at the Jazz Standard (2001, with David Finck) Alone: Ballads for Solo Piano (2007) Jazz Recordings as sideman/group member[edit] With Benny Carter Jazz Giant (Contemporary, 1958) With Helen Humes Tain't Nobody's Biz-ness if I Do (Contemporary, 1959) Songs I Like to Sing! (Contemporary, 1960) With Barney Kessel Music to Listen to Barney Kessel By (Contemporary, 1956) Carmen (Contemporary, 1959) With Shelly Manne Shelly Manne & His Friends (Contemporary, 1956) My Fair Lady (Contemporary, 1956) Li'l Abner (Contemporary, 1957) Bells Are Ringing (Contemporary, 1959) With Lyle Murphy 12-Tone Compositions and Arrangements by Lyle Murphy (Contemporary, 1955) Classical music (as conductor and/or pianist – selection)[edit] Chamber music / solo piano music[edit] As in Jazz, Previn, the classical pianist, worked most of the time as a trio pianist (with violin and cello) in classical chamber music. Accordingly, most of his recordings as pianist are in this genre. |
This Buds for you Learsfool; from "Wikipedia" Classical music (as conductor and/or pianist – selection)[edit] Chamber music / solo piano music[edit] As in Jazz, Previn, the classical pianist, worked most of the time as a trio pianist (with violin and cello) in classical chamber music. Accordingly, most of his recordings as pianist are in this genre. Samuel Barber: Four Excursions, Paul Hindemith: Piano Sonata No. 3, Frank Martin: Prelude No. 7 (1961) Gabriel Fauré: Piano Trio D-minor op. 120, Felix Mendelssohn: Piano Trio D-minor op. 120 (1964, with Nathan Roth and Joseph Schuster) Serge Rachmaninoff: Music for Two Pianos. Suite Nr. 1 op. 5, Suite Nr. 2 op. 17, Symphonic Dances op. 45 (1974, with Vladimir Ashkenazy) Maurice Ravel: Piano Trio A-minor, Dmitri Shostakovich: Piano Trio No. 2 E-minor op. 67 (1974, with Kim Young Uck and Ralph Kirshbaum) Claude Debussy: Piano Trio G-major, Maurice Ravel: Piano Trio A-minor (1995, with Julie Rosenfeld and Gary Hoffmann) Ludwig van Beethoven: Piano Trio No. 7 B flat-major op. 97, Johannes Brahms: Piano Trio B-major op. 8 (1995, with Viktoria Mullova and Heinrich Schiff) American Scenes. André Previn: Sonata for Violin and Piano "Vineyard", George Gershwin: Three Preludes, Aaron Copland: Sonata for Violin and Piano, Nocturne, Samuel Barber: Canzone (Elegy) op. 38a (1998, with Gil Shaham) Orchestral music / concertos / ballets[edit] Previn's recording repertoire as a conductor is focused on the standards of classical and romantic music, with notable exceptions like Anton Bruckner, most of Gustav Mahler and opera in general, instead favoring the symphonic music of contemporaries like Hector Berlioz, Johannes Brahms and Richard Strauss and with a special emphasis on violin and piano concertos and ballets. Just very few recordings deal with music before Joseph Haydn and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (both favourites of Previn's programmes) or contemporary avant-garde art music based on atonality, minimalism, serialism, stochastic music etc. Instead, in 20th-century music Previn's repertoire highlights specific composers of late romanticism and modernism like Samuel Barber, Benjamin Britten, George Gershwin, Erich Wolfgang Korngold, Serge Prokofiev, Serge Rachmaninoff, Maurice Ravel, Dmitri Shostakovich, Richard Strauss, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Harold Shapero and William Walton. His recordings of works by Gershwin, Korngold (especially the Violin Concerto in D major op. 35, which he recorded three times with Itzhak Perlman, Gil Shaham and Anne-Sophie Mutter), Prokofiev (esp. the 5 piano concertos with Vladimir Ashkenazy and the LSO, Romeo and Juliet op. 64 with the LSO, and the Symphonies 1 and 5, the score to Alexander Nevsky, and the Symphony-Concerto for Cello & Orchestra with Heinrich Schiff as soloist with the Los Angeles Philharmonic), Rachmaninoff (esp. the Symphony No. 2 E minor op. 27 and The Bells op. 35), Shostakovich, Richard Strauss (esp. the recordings of all tone poems with the Vienna Philharmonic) Tchaikowsky (esp. the three ballets Swan Lake, The Sleeping Beauty, and The Nutcracker), Vaughan Williams (a complete cycle of the nine symphonies for RCA), and Walton (esp. the Symphony No. 1 B-flat minor and Belshazzar's Feast) have been particularly prized.[citation needed] Previn recorded most for EMI, Telarc and Deutsche Grammophon. Contemporary classical music (recordings of Previn's own compositions – selection)[edit] Guitar Concerto (1972, with John Williams and the London Symphony Orchestra) Every Good Boy Deserves Favour (1978, with the London Symphony Orchestra) Piano Concerto and Guitar Concerto (1990, with Vladimir Ashkenazy, Eduardo Fernandez and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra) Honey and Rue (1995, with Kathleen Battle and the Orchestra of St. Luke's) "From Ordinary Things": Sonata for Cello and Piano; Four Songs for Soprano, Cello and Piano; Two Remembrances for Soprano, Alto Flute and Piano; Vocalise for Soprano, Cello and Piano (1997, with Sylvia McNair, Yo-Yo Ma and Sandra Church) Trio for Piano, Oboe and Bassoon (1997, with Cynthia Koledo de Almeida and Nancy Goeres) "Music of André Previn": Trio for Piano, Oboe and Bassoon, Peaches for Flute and Piano, Triolet for Brass, Variations on a Theme by Haydn for Piano, A Wedding Waltz for Two Oboes and Piano (1998, with the St. Luke's Chamber Ensemble) "American Scenes": Sonata for Violin and Piano "Vineyard" (1998, with Gil Shaham) A Streetcar Named Desire (1998; with Renée Fleming, Elizabeth Futral, Rodney Gilfry, Anthony Dean Griffey, San Francisco Opera Orchestra) "Diversions – Songs": Diversions; Sallie Chisum Remembers Billy the Kid; Vocalise; The Giraffes Go to Hamburg; Three Dickinson Songs (2001, with Renée Fleming, Barbara Bonney, Moray Welsh, Vienna Philharmonic, London Symphony Orchestra) Tango Song and Dance (2003, Anne-Sophie Mutter) Violin Concerto "Anne-Sophie" (2003, with Anne-Sophie Mutter and the Boston Symphony Orchestra) Double Concerto for Violin, Contrabass and Orchestra; Piano Concerto; Violin Concerto "Anne-Sophie"; Three Dickinson Songs; Diversions; "I Can Smell The Sea Air" from A Streetcar Named Desire (2009, with Renée Fleming, Anne-Sophie Mutter, Vladimir Ashkenazy, Roman Patkolo, Boston Symphony Orchestra, London Symphony Orchestra, Vienna Philharmonic, San Francisco Opera Orchestra) Brief Encounter (2011, with Elizabeth Futral, Nathan Gunn, Kim Josephson, Houston Grand Opera Orchestra, Patrick Summers) Television[edit] Previn became known to a broad public through his television work. In the United Kingdom he worked on TV with the London Symphony Orchestra. In the United States the TV show "Previn and the Pittsburgh" (1977) featured him in collaboration with the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. Previn is particularly remembered in Britain for his performance as "Mr. Andrew Preview" (or "Privet") on the Morecambe and Wise Christmas Show in 1971, which involved his conducting a performance of Edvard Grieg's Piano Concerto with Eric Morecambe as the comically inept soloist. At one point during the sketch "Mr Preview" accuses Eric Morecambe of playing all the wrong notes; Eric retorts that he has been playing "all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order".[14] Because of other commitments the only time available for Previn to learn his part in the show was during a transatlantic flight but the talent he showed for comedy won high praise from his co-performers. He made a second appearance in their eighth series. In the sketch, he is tricked into visiting the pair again, and they suggest that if he works with them again, he could receive a knighthood. He joined them at the end of the episode in singing Bring Me Sunshine. At a concert with the Grieg Concerto in Britain afterwards, Previn had to pause the playing to allow the audience time to stop giggling as they remembered the sketch. Previn himself notes that people in Britain still recall the sketch years later: "Taxi drivers still call me Mr Preview".[1] Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, an "aficionado" is someone who likes and knows a lot about something; jazz aficionados know a lot about jazz. This thread established "posting" music from "you tube" at the very beginning; it's not necessary to speak your musical language; an "aficionado" can listen and decide for himself, anything, and everything you could describe in your "musical language"; for example, Acman rarely posts two paragraphs, but since he's posted the music, I know more than I would if he had posted a long diatribe. When I said you were "Phaking the Phunk", I was referring to the fact that you seem to be unable to hear the "essence" of the music, the "flow" that Dizzy Gillespie referred to, in the music; and you demonstrated this when you stated that "Like Young" by Andre Previn sounded no better than Kenny G on elevator music. After you discovered he is one of the worlds greatest musicians, you tried to clean it up, but it was too late. We can all disregard that one incident, because when I said "Phaking the Phunk", I was thinking of a very long history of incidents, when you failed to hear "the flow". Frogman, this is what you posted; 6. O-10, let me be clear: I DONT think the "problem" is that you are not interested in learning about music. I am, believe it or not, perfectly ok with that. The problem is that you don’t want to allow others to speak the language of music; not a reasonable expectation. You, yourself, want to be able to critique others’ music choices and use terms with negative connotations like "soulless", "intellectual", "stereotypical jazz" etc., but you don’t want to hear why others feel the way they do about music that you like. Not a reasonable expectation. Please try to recognize how just about every recent post by you is laced with at least one snide or negative comment or insinuation; that approach will achieve nothing positive and will certainly discourage anyone from interacting. "I don't want to allow others to speak the language of music; to be quite blunt; "I don't know what the hades you're talking about?" That paragraph is null and void; I never use the word "intellectual" in reference to music; that's Rok's word, who you happen to be sucking up to presently, but who you used to trash at every turn. Back to "Phaking the Phunk"; when you cannot hear the "soul" of the artist, you go into that "musician nit picking bag", and evidently that's what you want everyone to learn, although you can count me out, I don't know how many times I've stated it's fine for Rok and Acman, and that I have no objection to you teaching them, and any one else who wants to learn; but you and Learsfool go into this "Phase lock loop" and repeat the same thing over and over, and I know you will continue to do it until the cows come home in St. Louis. "Soulless" and "stereotypical" are my two favorite words; that means to hook together well worn jazz cliche's, that I've heard a thousand and one times, that you think are really cooking; when they even sound mechanical, like they're trying to imitate "Bird", which is totally impossible. How can I prove you are "phaking the phunk" if I tell you to leave the thread? Enjoy the music. |
Rok, I continue to amazed buy the Horace Silver clips. So many great records! Had not heard "The Gringo" either. Once again, great tune with his stamp all over it. Great soloing, especially Blue Mitchell who sounds amazing on this cut. The Village Gate! Blast from the past for me. Last time I went there was to hear Nat Adderly’s group shortly before the place sadly closed down. Nat was one of those players who could be very inconsistent sounding absolutely brilliant as on the record with his brother Cannonball and Nancy Wilson, and other times sounding not so good. I have a feeling that he was one of those trumpet (cornet) players who suffered from chop problems. Here he is in top form: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLBKaAMksEpBvQKZr76feeW_6YUDKxhnkT&v=HTXUHSHmziA https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLBKaAMksEpBvQKZr76feeW_6YUDKxhnkT¶ms=OAFIAVgI&v=bTmiCq... |
Hi O-10 - I went back and found the Andre Previn jazz piano clip you say your "controversy" is about. "Elevator music" is a pretty good description, actually. For me, the best that can be said of it is that it is very light entertainment, and while there is nothing wrong with that, it is certainly not great art. The string accompaniment is pretty cheesy stuff. Previn is a musician who could do a lot of different things very well, but no one of them truly great, and I mean by that world class, on a consistent basis. There are certainly much better examples of his piano playing, both in the jazz and classical idioms, than the ones you have posted here. I heard a record of his jazz playing that was pretty cool once, but I just checked, and I don't own any of it, so unfortunately I can't tell you what the title of the album was. I am also not understanding why you felt the need to post the entire Wikipedia entry on Previn a couple of times?? I am very familiar with who he is and what he has done in his career in a general sense, as is Frogman. I have never met or worked with him; I don't know if Frogman has. I am not so familiar with much of his recorded output as a pianist. Being an orchestral musician myself, I am naturally therefore more interested in him as a conductor than as a pianist, and I am much more familiar with his work in that field, where again I would describe him as good, not great. I own only seven or eight classical albums where he is the conductor - most of them where he is conducting the music of British composers, which he was justly well known for. In particular, he recorded much of the music of Ralph Vaughn Williams with the London Symphony on RCA, and I have a few of those. There is also a good recording he did of William Walton's Belshazzar's Feast, also with the London Symphony, on Angel. That one has an interesting cover, too..... |
Learsfool, after the third time, maybe this will sink in but I doubt it. André Previn (2012) André George Previn, KBE (/ˈprɛvɪn/; born Andreas Ludwig Priwin; April 6, 1929)[1] is a German-American pianist, conductor, and composer. He is considered one of the most versatile musicians in the world and is the winner of four Academy Awards for his film work and ten Grammy Awards for his recordings (and one more for his Lifetime Achievement). You're another one of those who can't hear "The Flow", and you demonstrated that when you called it "elevator music". You and Frogman seem to believe that if you say something enough times that will make it so. Enjoy the music. |
Learsfool, do all of these version of "Like Young" sound like "elevator music"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCZxvAG5wHg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxkfFRsUA3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZKzTMr1M5E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roeBmPN7MJE Enjoy the music. |
On this thread we have criticized or trashed people like, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Wynton Marsalis, Phil Woods, and have from time to time, spoken at least a few discouraging words about anyone who is anyone. Even Pops has not been spared. My question is, why has criticism of one tune, by Andre Previn of all people,. caused such an uproar? Why did you pick this moment, and this player, to burn all your bridges with the contributors and supporters of this thread? Why are you falling on your sword over this guy? I don't get it. Can someone help me out? Explain please? If I had said it was elevator music, would we be going through all this? What is this really all about? You need to give yourself an honest answer to that question. Keep in mind, on Audiogon, we are a minority, within a minority, within a minority. Can't really afford to run interested folks off. Cheers |
Rok, in 1959 I had never heard of Andre Previn, and a guy in the next barracks had all of his hit music at that time; out of everything I listened to, "Like Young" was my favorite tune. Black 'Leotards' was the dress for ladies of the hip persuasion at that time, and when we went out, (me and my fellow Airman) I spotted a long lean fox dressed in black leotards; I went over introduced myself and asked if me and my friend could join her, and her friend; that was the start of something big. The title of the album that tune is from is; "Secret Songs For Young Lovers", and it was quite appropriate for me and my new lady friend; she played it a lot. I don't think my attachment to this song is any secret, and I am convinced that's the reason it has been trashed. That song could not have remained a hit if it had been "elevator music". Ella Fitzgerald is not in the habit of singing "elevator music"; Andre Previn is not in the habit of producing "elevator music", and now two musicians are going to tell me "Like Young" sounds like "elevator music". They said it was "elevator music" because I posted it, and if you're so concerned about "Like Young" starting a flaming forest fire, why did you bring it up again? Enjoy the music. |
Maybe you post too much 'personal' stuff. You can't expect people on this thread / forum to relate to things and / or people with whom you have a personal relationship or attachment. As Acman3 said, he likes stuff that some people don't even consider music, elevator or otherwise. Be secure in your own musical values and taste. Lastly, it's like not someone called the music of Silver or Mingus music elevator fare. It's only Previn. I could talk about Jazz for a hundred years and never mention the guy. BTW, if you ride on enough elevators, I bet you will sooner or later hear the music of Ellington. Just a little context. Cheers |
Maybe you like to start forest fires? maybe you're bored and want some more excitement? Edger Allen Poe called this "The imp of the perverse" "The Imp of the Perverse" is a short story by 19th-century American author and critic Edgar Allan Poe. Beginning as an essay, it discusses the narrator's self-destructive impulses, embodied as the symbolic metaphor of The Imp of the Perverse. The narrator describes this spirit as the agent that tempts a person to do things "merely because we feel we should not." Now you're getting the precise action that you knew you would. Well done. Enjoy the music. |
I find it truly incredible how a person can continue to delude himself and continue to accuse others of the very things that he is doing. I really don’t derive any satisfaction by saying or even thinking these things, in fact I find it disturbing; but, sometimes there is no other way of saying it: Either there is some bizarre deliberate plan at work here, or there is some sort of deficiency of mental faculties. THE ISSUE IS NOT THAT THE f$&*#%g tune "Like Young" IS OR SOUNDS LIKE ELEVATOR MUSIC, IT IS THAT PREVIN’S VERSION SOUNDS LIKE ELEVATOR MUSIC. I explained this before and asked what on earth does Ella’s version have to do with Previn’s? How does the fact that Ella’s version is good make Previn’s good as well; or, less bad? Boggles the mind. Rok, you asked for help in figuring out what is going on here; and, in keeping with my prior promise to not address the OP directly about these things unless he decides to be more reasonable, I am offering my takes only because you asked. Your two questions, why is he doing this, and would he react the way he does if it were you making the comments are connected. This is how I would answer them: It is no secret that you and I have had our vehement disagreements and "spats" here. I suspect we will butt heads again, but I do think that there is a better understanding between us as of late and I welcome that. But, for me there has always been a very significant difference between your motivation in participation here and the OP’s; it’s really quite simple for me. I have always sensed that for you the love of the music is foremost, I respect that and is why I appreciate the opportunity to interact, share and answer questions, etc.** Imo, for the OP, it is the love of the idea that he loves the music that is foremost and this seems to be an unhealthy part of his persona and identity; and, why he can’t bear the idea that he might be mistaken about something related to the music, that someone else may not like what he likes, or that he doesn’t know nearly as much as he thinks he does about it. It is all about him, "the one and only O-10" to quote him. Or, the holding on to the idea that someone would post a differing idea only because it is in response to HIM. Something very strange going on here; if it weren’t laughable. I think that your phrase "falling on his own sword" is very appropriate. I think he feels he is losing the control of the thread; control that he wants very much ("My thread"). There have been several other comments made that point to this; most telling, the one about the participants having to make a decision between he and I (!!!!) "if the thread is to continue". As if the life of the thread depended on his participation , or mine! Talk about self-deluded arrogance. Words to to live by: ****Be secure in your own musical values and taste.**** I seem to recall someone else making that very comment about three years (!) ago 😉. Anyway, still hopeful that things settle and that he comes to his senses. Cheers. ** btw, how’s that for "sucking up"? ☺️ |
Frogman, you don't boggle my mind, I'm sorry that I boggle yours; you're motives are as clear as a mountain stream, and their all EGOTISTICAL. Reviews of the album We like Previn - Volenza.se www.volenza.se/en/reviews/we-like-previn In terms of his mastery of so many disparate musical areas, Andre Previn ranks with Duke ... In "Like Young", which also Ella Fitzgerald recorded, she is grand. I can go all day with superlatives that others have to say about "Like Young" by Andre Previn; yet I'm the only person on this thread that appreciates it. That says a lot about the people on this thread who call themselves "Aficionados". Enjoy the music. |
One of the most unique voices in the jazz tenor world. Love his playing: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b7_jnfDo42k |
I don't see any mention of Andre Previn with Benny Goodman in 1958 in a small group setting on the Columbia album "Happy Session". Some of the "extra" tracks (unissued ) came out on one of the Yale University library volumes.Very nicely executed Jazz piano,perhaps not up to the level of Teddy Wilson or Mel Powell,but Previn captures the moment beyond criticism. His tune "You're gonna hear from me",written with his then wife,Dory,who did the lyrics,for the film "inside Daisy Glover" was a favorite of Bill Evans as a Jazz vehicle. There were many 50's Jazz sessions where Previn excelled...Benny Carter,Helen Humes etc. Someone compared Previn to Duke Ellington,as he did "everything"...Duke did Duke,he didn't "do everything"...he WAS everything! You guys,the two or three of you that fuel this thread just type,type,type and never say anything. Who wants to read it? .It just goes on and on and on and on and on....Say less and say smarter. Andre previn never took the elevator,always the stairs....yikes! You guys need to give Jazz a break! |
Today's Listen: Horace Silver -- FINGER POPPIN' I hope I can get this in doing a lull in the Grand Poobah 'ruckus'. I thought "Juicy Lucy" would be my favorite, but I guess you can't judge a tune by it's title. I liked these two best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p_JtM-Rnc0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0XvzVX9HMM Interesting notes about how Blue Mitchell joined the group. My favorite part of the notes: "The main phrase is twelve bars long, but the second time it's played, the last bar overlaps into the first bar of the channel, so in effect the chorus is 12, 12, 7 and 12. It is written in the key of B, but the second eight ends on a C chord, so the channel starts in C".** ** Address all questions to The Frogman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p_JtM-Rnc0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0XvzVX9HMM Cheers |
(jazzcourier) You see OP. When you carry on like you have been, we begin to attract drive-by 'audiophiles'. I think he just flew in from the, "the direction of current flow in hi-fi fuses" thread. Seems as if he didn't survive the discussion there unscathed. His post was as nonsensical and incoherent as some of the stuff posted here lately. Cheers |
Jazzcourier, so glad you dropped in; these "wannabe's" think if they all stack up against me, that will give their nonsense some validity, but it only confirms what I have to deal with in order to enlighten them. If you noticed, none of them responded to "Idle Moments" by Grant Green; they wouldn't know good jazz if it hit them upside the head with a guitar; but can they type.......After two or three hundred pages worth of "whatever", I still don't know what they said. Do drop in more often. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, did you know that Joe Henderson was the featured tenor man on "Idle Moments"? His solo on that jam is one of the most talked about among "Aficionados". Here's the real scoop on why that one cut is so long: Rudy Van Gelder is the timekeeper; he's responsible for turning on the light to signal it's time to wrap it up; but he was so caught up in Joe Henderson's solo that he decided to let him blow till he had said what all he had to say. That's the real deal on why that cut "Idle Moments" is so long. Enjoy the music. |
I invite all of you typists and Jazz amigos to join me on Fridays at KUNM.ORG to stream live (or check out the two week archive) for my edition of the Monday-Friday Jazz slot named (but not by me) "All that Jazz" we commence at 12:06 Mountain time and go to 1:30 pm. This week,April 29th, i will be celebrating the Birthday of Duke Ellington on the actual date of his birth with music from the 20's to the 70's with the emphasis on lesser known and rarely heard works.Face it,most Ellington falls into this category. In the last few months there has been features on Billie Holiday,Jelly Roll Morton,John Coltrane,Nat King Cole,Charles Mingus,Benny GoodmanJoe Pass,Toots Thielmans,Charlie Parker and even Grant Green, on his own and with Larry Young.Even mix in some living musicians (Toots is "retired") but the neglect of the great masters draws me to try to level the playing field and offer a little education and enlightenment that,obviously is sorely needed .Still some life out there on terrestrial radio,but the streaming option is great.I have listeners all over the world. Yeah,enjoy the music.......... |
Orpheus, Green is legend and the 'Idle Moments' is a classic album. Somehow I am always reluctant to write about such well known records. Imho we should write more about players and albums that are not so well known, in a hope that that sad fact might change, once when those album are heard by more people. Here are couple of tunes of Tiny Grimes (b.1916.), one of earliest jazz guitarist, from 1958.album 'Blues Groove', on which he plays with great Coleman Hawkins on sax and Ray Bryant on piano, among others. The focus is, of course, on blues, but these guys sure can play. Note, Grimes plays 4 string guitar Here are the links. Hope you will like it https://youtu.be/p51MT5OMw-I https://youtu.be/h168KJceOr0 |
Alex, in my young days, I traveled from one blues joint to another; consequently, my familiarity with the blues is from live music, as opposed to records, as in jazz, and the only famous name I can recall is Albert King. At that time I never had one serious thought about the music, I was just out to have a good time, and now I have to reflect back to those times in order to put the music in some kind of perspective. When I reflect back to what I heard at that time, the blues I heard was either Delta, or New Orleans based, meaning originated from one of those two places, and I make that statement founded on what Rok, the blues expert has said about the music. Although I liked "Tiny Grimes" I was unable to put his guitar into any kind of perspective, it sounded original to me; but what's all important is whether or not I liked it, and I did. Enjoy the music. |
Yes,Tiny Grimes with Charlie Parker "Red Cross" on Savoy 1944.Early Bird and almost pre-Bop.Tiny with Art Tatum,look for the Capitol trio recordings.He made lots of sessions in the 40's as Jazz was in transition from small group Swing to Bop.Prior to that he was in the "Cats and the Fiddle" a string group that played hot Jazz.In the 50's he had a instrumental band called the Rockin' highlanders and made some hard driving Jazz flavored R&B sides for Atlantic.Through all this he kept at that 4 string tenor guitar.I was fortunate to hear him live and meet him when he came to L.A. in the early 80's for a concert with guitarist John Collins,who was Nat Cole's guitarist as well as an important 52nd st.Jazz player in the 40's.Too bad Collins didn't make more solo records,he was a real master. Tiny Grimes was not a Blues player as we would usually associate with that genre,but he always shined there and the relative uncomplicated nature of the Blues lent itself to the tenor guitar.He greatly enhanced those Prestige Swingsville sessions. One of the unsung heroes of the intersection of Jazz and Blues guitar was Teddy Bunn. Poorly represented on records but if you can find them you will hear some great playing in the T-Bone Walker meets Charlie Christian vein.He made a few sides for Blue Note in the 40's. Irving Ashby was another of those 40's guitarists who made a few records but had a great Christian influenced sound. I would like to think that people still listen to and appreciate the innovations of Charlie Christian.Tiny Grimes might have been a footnote in Jazz,but Charlie Christian is a chapter. |
Hi O-10 - as Frogman has tried a couple of times to explain to you, it is not the tune itself that sounds like elevator music. It is the cheesy string arrangement backing up the piano in that particular Previn recording that sounds like elevator. I guarantee you Previn himself performed it live in a much different fashion that would not have sounded like elevator music - probably many times, in many different versions, since he wrote the tune. That's the thing about jazz - it is never the same twice, even from the same performer, unless you are listening to a recording. Don't you remember that from your world class friend who lived with you that summer and never practiced who you heard perform a few times a week? I wonder what he really thought about your proud ignorance of music? And no, of course the Ella performance of that tune does not sound like elevator music - your conclusion that I must think so because I thought the other one did is completely illogical. If you really cannot understand that, then it is truly hopeless to have any sort of intelligent conversation with you about jazz, let alone music in general; but I think you really do understand that, and are just pretending not to - so I am forced to wonder, as others have, why on earth did you start this thread when you are so resistant to anyone else's opinions? You should start a blog if you want the floor to yourself - this is an open forum. |
Great stuff, jazzcourier; thanks. Understanding when and how it all came from is a beautiful thing. No mention of Eddie Lang so far, going even further back: http://youtu.be/ggJCrl9oEgQ http://youtu.be/qgzAoDhzUJA |
Eddie Lang died in 1933. He was incredibly active up to that point,so many great records and that singing,single string style really created a platform for so many to come.His records with Joe Venuti,Jack Teagarden and the great duets with Lonnie Johnson.You hear him in Grant Green and B.B. King.Into the 30's...some amazing guitar from Carl Kress,Dick McDonough and George Van Eps.Early electric and acoustic from Eddie Durham,also a trombonist and a great writer and arranger.His work wth Jimmie Lunceford ("Hittin' the bottle") on acoustic and with Lester Young on Commodore with his electric.Floyd Smith in the 30's with Andy Kirk ("Floyd's guitar Blues") Les Paul,the demon seed of the electric guitar,so many excellent sides from rthe 1940's with speed and precision.George Barnes in the 40's with a ringing horn like tone.Billy Bauer into the late 40's with Lennie Tristano and several broadcasts with Charlie Parker.Standing alone as one of the greatest on any instrument....Django Reinhardt,throughout the 30's and into the 50's on the electric,even though he lost a step moving to the amplified guitar the sound was unearthly and another big influence on so many in that electric period. The 50's was a landslide of amazing players- Barney Kessel,Herb Ellis,Jimmy Raney,Jim Hall all heavily recorded and well documented. Of course Grant Green,who has become a legend and never failed to impress on any of the essential Blue Note's.By the time i got to see him in 1968 he had moved into that Funk/Soul Jazz bag and was playing to half full crowds,but we had all the Blue Note's and there was always amazing guitarists everywhere you turned in that period.B.B.King at his best before Pop came to his music.Albert King,a monster and Freddie King,the hardest driver of them all.Albert Collins fresh from Texas and T-Bone Walker on his last lap,but still with an amazing slow burn of precisely chosen notes like a surgeon.Buddy Guy! By the turn of the 70's most of these guys were compromised by the lure of Rock producers and the music went elsewhere. Still the best was Joe Pass,who seemed to combine elements from all these players plus an Art Tatum like one man orchestra approach. Just some darn good guitar players here.As far as the living,Howard Alden. |
Jazzcourier, you don't have to use a lot of words to say something, but if you are going to use a lot of words "say something". Before I read Acmans post, I was in pursuit of a blues guitarist. One word in his post steered me in a different direction, "Charlie Parker"; that one word put Tiny Grimes in a different ball park. After I found Charlie Parker and Tiny Grimes on "you tube", I realized why it's not in my collection, but it might be in my fathers collection. This music is called "early Bird"; that was "the Bird" in the making when he was playing with Tiny Grimes. Alex, a friend of mine use to always say; "To thine self be true", and with that I'm saying I could enjoy Tiny Grimes if I were visiting you, and you played it, but I wouldn't rush out and buy it; although I can enjoy the nostalgic aspect of that music; it reminds me of music I overheard in my childhood. When I focused exclusively on "Bird's Horn" or "Tiny's" guitar, they sounded OK, but "Pre-Bop" is not my first preference in music. Enjoy the music. |
jazzcourier, couldn't agree more re Harold Arlen and Joe Pass. Pat Martino is in a class by himself among the living players. Astounding; although Pass is the one that always moved me most. He is sorely missed. I posted this recently and I think it's worth posting again: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cyqJwJzGB0g I heard this young man recently at a club here in NY. I was very impressed with his maturity as a player who, while definitely with a modern sensibility, has not, as Rok likes to say, strayed too far from the Jazz farm. I think he's someone to keep an eye on: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fYqaiEicGjs |
Frogman...Thanks for the heads up on this Dane? Gilad Hekelsman. Certainly has chops and has done the work and i have always liked Mark Turner.I looked at a few more recent videos of Gilad and he is impressive.Sounds like he is searching for the right tone on that instrument and i say stay out of the murky waters of amplification and let the instrument speak. Pat Martino....profound! |
