Jazz for aficionados

Rok, Frogman, Alex; David Pike is the subject; he has a lot of music that I've never heard before, and according to my sensibilities, it's all good music. Why don't we visit "you tube", and get back together with our favorites by him, or discuss why you don't like David Pike if it turns out that way; see you  in a bit.

Sorry folks, this is ending before it began; Pike's CD's run from $20 t0 $40, and that's too rich for my blood.


Enjoy the music.

O-10, to be frank, what I am sick of is the arrogance in attempts by a very accomplished professional musician (Learsfool) to offer some insights into somehting that you admit to knowing little about being dismissed as "wack".

****but I might as well been looking and listening to Martians, musician talk is Greek to me.****

At best, it shows bad form, and to my way of thinking, any doubt about the validity of what Learsfool might be saying should have stopped at that realization.  However, I can understand  (I think) how someone who lives by the supremacy of "subjectivism" above all else, when faced with a seemingly contradictory experience might feel as you do.  First, however, I need to quote a great comment by Learsfool that is key and if understood could eliminate a lot of the bullshit that this thread gets stuck in sometimes:

****The only difference is the idiom, not the process****

The astute and open-minded will notice shades of another important truism.

"There are only two kinds of music; good and bad (the other kind"- Duke Ellington

O-10, you have been presented with several quotes by jazz greats which show that jazz musicians PRACTICE!!!.  Yet you dismiss the testimony of Bird, Louis and Coltrane just as you dismiss the testimony of Herbie Hancock and many others about the importance of KOB.  Hmmm, I'm starting to see a pattern 😉 .  Moreover, you place a tremendous amount of stock on your experience living with a jazz musician who didn't practice for a summer and assume that this is indicative of how all jazz musicians view "the process".  

The process:

Your friend didn't practice for a summer.  So what?  Every musician goes through periods when, for whatever reason, they don't practice much.  They may be busy performing, or dealing with life issues, or depressed, or simply lazy.  I assure you, however, that while they may all have a different threshold beyond which they may feel unacceptably rusty, rusty at their craft they will get.  As Louis said, he knew it after one day.  

As you correctly said, every improvising musician (notice I didn't say jazz musician, per Learsfool's great comment) attempts to translate the abstract ideas in his head to the physical via actual musical expression.  To accomplish that the physical apparatus needs to be exercised in a disciplined way: PRACTICE!!!.  New musical ideas can only be expressed if the player has visited the technical landscape that those musical ideas are a part of.  Example: do you think that the great Freddie Hubbard could have executed those wide intervals that became part of his signature style if he had not spent countless hours PRACTICING wide intervals in every key, so as to have that as part of his "arsenal" and draw from it?  You will surely cry, "Oh, but that was in his formative years".  Wrong.  If you don't practice those tho gas you can't reliably execute them; hand and lip muscles are muscles like any others.  Just listen to late Art Pepper or Dexter Gordon for examples of rusty playing.  Even more importantly, new ideas are developed by "being in the woodshed" and exploring and teying new things musically; things which are not always possible to do in performance.  Do yourself a favor and Google *Coltrane practice* You will read more accounts, anecdotes and even interviews than you'll be able to absorb about his incessant practice routine as part of the creative process.  After a solo, he would walk off the bandstand and go to the bathroom to continue working out ideas.  He slept with a flute by his bed (yes he played flute) so he could practice laying in bed.

i am posting this in incomplete form because I am about to land back in NY and will be losing connectivity any moment.

Frogman, You are saying exactly what I knew you would say; by definition, you can not practice  "improvising" , and that's that.  East is East, and West is West, never the twain shall meet.  The fact that you both are accomplished musicians doesn't change anything; the sky is still blue.

Enjoy the music.

O-10, first sorry for all the typos. Back on the ground now. Care to join me 😉?

Unfortunately, you responded as I expected you would; although I keep hoping. I don’t know what it is you don’t understand about what we are saying; but you just don’t, you don’t get it. Perhaps the concept is too abstract for you. You are wedded to this romantic notion of what the process is and you are simply wrong. You have much to learn about these topics and prefer to live in your self -created reality even in the face of so much evidence to the contrary. You have a real soft spot for the time you spent with your friend and I think that’s a beautiful thing. However, I would respectfully suggest that you are doing him (as a musician), his craft and his memory (?) a disservice by holding on to these mistaken notions. As concerns your friend: since you have provided so little information about him, based on what you have provided I can only conclude that either it really was only that summer that he didn’t practice (which if you think about it would not be surprising given that he was living in someone else’s apt), or that he never reached his full potential because any artist that doesn’t practice his craft simply can’t. As to how all this relates to this thread, I think this thread and the seriousness of its topic deserve better.  Did you google Coltrane/practice? 

Interesting reading for anyone who would like to learn more about the subject.  Of course, anyone can choose to shut down and deem it simply "Martian talk" and go back to their own world of artificial (but subjective) reality.  From one of the best jazz pianists on the scene today:

http://www.tedrosenthal.com/practice.htm

Frogman, I stated that was the Summer he was in my apartment. I'm sure he practiced morning noon and night in order to get so proficient with such a complex instrument, also his mother taught him, that's in his bio. He was playing before he started school and in the church.

I was talking to a musician friend of mine, telling him how good my other friend was.

"He was good, but he wasn't that good", was his reply. I'll show him I thought; that's when I bought every record I could find of him as leader or sideman. None of those records had the music he was playing that summer. He died not long after he left my apartment, and none of that music was recorded; consequently everything I have uttered about him is "moot", since I can not proof anything about the music he was playing. Of course his musician friends knew he was at my apartment that Summer, but I have no proof what so ever in regard to the music.

You can conclude this any way you like, and we can call it concluded.


Enjoy the music.

O-10:

You don't have a leg to stand on.   ALL performers and entertainers practice their craft.  Even stand up comedians.

Your friend was just a Local guy.  Maybe he didn't practice because he knew his audience and their level of musical appreciation / sophistication.   Had he been trying to have a career in a p[lace like NYC, he would have practiced, or been on welfare.  

Medium-sized  fish in a very small pond comes to mind.  

Cheers

Rok, your post is total "wack". He wasn't a local musician, and he was still getting checks from "Blue Note", why don't you read all of my posts, and when you read them, if you read them, go slowly and you might get the real picture and not the picture you want to get.

Well this is not a quiz show.  (what's my line?)   Tell us who he is.   Then we will know.  Checks from Blue Note?  That's a big time label.  You name him, and we will know if he practiced or not.

Cheers

Frogman, that was a very good link, and as far as I know, before "that Summer" he lived by it. During the time he was in my apartment, it's quite possible he would have liked to practice, but it was impossible. I'm only stating what I witnessed, no less and no more.

As I reflect back to that time, I believe he knew his time was short, and nothing was more important than to get approval for his "new music" from the people, his fans; and he got that when we went to the clubs, he even played center stage under the ARCH here in St. Louis on the 4th of July. You can't get no bigger crowd than that, and he got rave reviews.

This is in no way about my philosophy of practicing or not practicing; I'm just giving an account of what I witnessed during one of the most glorious Summers in my life. Rok, you have already given his "old music" four and a half stars, maybe you would give his new music an even 5 if you could hear it. May he rest in peace.



Enjoy the music.

After seeing David Pike for $40, I decided to go through my collection and dig out all that crap I bought based on "Stereophile's" recommendations, it ain't worth 2 cents. The stuff I don't want, nobody else wants it either, even when it was recommended by Stereophile. My music collection (the good stuff) is like the house I'm living in, whether the price goes up or down, I ain't selling.


Enjoy the music.

I paid $40 for a CD once.  Oscar Peterson's "Girl Talk".   Some sort of Japanese pressing.   The only one I could find, and I had to have "On A Clear Day" on CD.

$40 is not a lot to pay for great music.   The key word being GREAT.

I would pay 40 dollars for these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wG6Cgmgn5U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrRhkY9CIz8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F28X8--2dFU

Remember when music was always New and Exciting?  Lord, I miss those days.

Cheers

If you were buying music, or anything else, based upon recommendations from 'Stereophile', you were indeed lost.

Now 'Stereo Review', they knew their music.   Are those howls I hear?

Cheers

Hi O-10:  what is "wack," to use your phrase, is this comment of yours:  "The only thing you can practice is a written piece of music, or you can practice familiarity with your musical instrument."  This is so wrong I am not even sure where to start - it shows your almost total lack of knowledge of what you are trying to speak of.  

Your next sentences:  "This is what it is about; to have a musical idea in your head, and to make your instrument audibly produce that sound exactly as you hear it in your head. That means your brain extends through your hands into the musical instrument and the precise sound you want to hear comes out. The more I talk about this the clearer it becomes. Simply because others don't believe what I'm saying, only means they can't do it."  

Honestly, O-10, any good student musician, and certainly all professionals, can do what you are talking about here, no matter what type of music they play.  Your last sentence above is truly absurd for this reason.    

Frogman is bothered by your arrogance.  That is not what bothers me - what bothers me is your anti-intellectualism.  Your "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."  You clearly love music very much, and you have two professionals trying to explain to you things about it that you clearly have no idea about, and you just don't care.  That's very depressing to me.  Now you will probably want me to go away from your thread again.  

@learsfool 

***** Honestly, O-10, any good student musician, and certainly all professionals, can do what you are talking about here, no matter what type of music they play.  Your last sentence above is truly absurd for this reason.*****

You need to read Nica's book.   Quite a few of the Jazz musicians in her book, and we are speaking of some of the best, said being able to play what was in their head was  their most wished for ability.

When if come to arrogance, you are without peer on this thread. Calling a person 'arrogant', just for disagreeing with you, is in itself, the height of arrogance.

Cheers

Learsfool, I don't want you to leave this thread, but if you and Frogman make an absurd statement in unison, the fact that you both are accomplished musicians, will make it no less absurd.

You can not practice "improvisation"; how can you answer a question that has not even been asked? And you are saying that you can practice answering questions that have not been asked. If that's not absurd, I would like to know what is. "Improvisation" is spontaneously playing music, the right music, that fits in after the soloist before you. Now explain to me, how you can practice that?

You go on to state,
"Honestly, O-10, any good student musician, and certainly all professionals, can do what you are talking about here, no matter what type of music they play. Your last sentence above is truly absurd for this reason."

That statement was too "wack" for words. You are saying any student musician can do what Oscar Peterson, Sonny Rollins, and J. J. Johnson wished they could do; they wished they could transfer their thoughts to their musical instrument.

That last paragraph is almost comical: You are bothered by my "anti- intellectualism", and Frogman is bothered by my arrogance. As they used to say in USAF, My heart pumps purple panther piss for the both of you.


Enjoy the music.

Hi O-10 and Rok - in the sentences I quoted, it seemed obvious that O-10 was speaking of sound, not thoughts.  Any good musician can re-create the sound that is in his/her head.  We all do it all the time, with every note that we play, whether it is written down or not (and by the way, all musicians play many, many notes every day that are not written down, as part of their daily practice routines - making up their own variations of technical exercises is just one example).  This is a separate thing from whatever music/notes they are actually playing, though the two are of course directly related.  So it seems that I misunderstood you somewhat.  I am not familiar with the quotes you are speaking of from these musicians - I will say that your interpretation of them I suspect is incorrect, as it doesn't make much sense the way you state it.  On many levels, of course everyone can translate their thoughts to the instrument, otherwise they wouldn't be able to play it.   What I think they may mean, based on what little you have said about it, is that they have more musical thoughts in their head in the moment than they can translate directly to the solo they are playing in that moment.  That would make sense, if that is what they mean (which, by the way, is yet another way of saying they need more practice with improvisation).   Another thing that they may mean, again without knowing the context, is that one simply cannot play two different things at once, and that they wish they could.  Many jazz players try to solve that problem nowadays by experimenting with loops, so they can overlay all of their ideas about a particular tune at once.  The drawback is that this takes time, and can sound very repetitive to the audience.  One of my best friends, an incredible bass player, has made some really cool experiments in performance with loops.   Notice - he is experimenting - practicing!!   Is either or both of these thoughts more along the lines of what you meant?  

I find nothing arrogant in Learsfool's comments, and his very appropriate comment about "anti-intellectualism" could be considered (speaking for myself) as a gentler comment about simple lack of intellect.  To those who may be offended by that comment and who consider them arrogant I can only say that there are limits to everything.  Acknowledging the limitations inherent in getting to know someone only through a forum such as this and because of the importance on simple respect, I can honestly say that I hope I am mistaken in that last determination.

O-10, you are wrong and it is obvious that either I am correct in that last determination or you are simply paying lip service when you refer to the Ted Rosenthal link as a "good link"; had you really read it and understood, at least part of it, you would not continue to be so stubborn about these views.  

My challenge to you continues to be for you to please address the issues of what all the quoted musicians have had to say on this matter; not with simple "they say absurd things", "they're wrong", "my friend didn't practice", etc..retorts, but with substantive explanations and examples.  Hiding behind the subjectivity bullshit doesn't hold water.  If you don't feel you know how to speak the language of music well enough to do so, I assure you that it quite possible to do so via musical examples.  

It's very common in human nature for individuals to become so invested in a personal reality that adds validity and credibility to their sense of self that they shut down to the idea that they may have been mistaken about something for a very long time.  Not being exactly a spring chicken myself and having lost an elderly parent very recently I understand how that concept becomes more and more of a challenge as we age.  One of the things that may be more subtle to grasp and which is inherent in all of this, and something that every musician who strives for musical improvement holds on to, is the life-long idea that there is always more to learn and understand about an art form.  

I suspect that, at least on some level, O-10, you and perhaps others as well wish that Learsfool and I would just go away.  Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one's point of view) there is too much at stake when some are promulgating ideas about music that simply aren't true.  Sure, it's very tiresome and frustrating, but sorry guys I'll be lurking around to at least try to set the record straight; and, I assure that I only try and pick my battles when it comes to this stuff.

When you argue with God, that's arrogance.    I will assume neither of you claim to be The Lord.

The idea that Jazz is some intellectual exercise, is what is destroying, or has destroyed Jazz.  Brought about by folks with degrees from 'elite' schools, that are very competent playing their instrument, have loads of book learning, but have absolutely ZERO feel for the music.

Their sole mission is try and make Jazz something that ANYONE can play.   As Seven of Nine might say, "They Will Fail".

Cheers

Rok, that argument is so tired that it almost doesn't deserve commentary and is just plain bs.  No one is suggesting that that is what jazz is.  But, please, explain:  First you agree that all artists practice their craft, now you seem to contradict yourself.  Btw, have you googled "Coltrane practice"?  I know reality is hard to take sometimes.  

****You need to read Nica's book. Quite a few of the Jazz musicians in her book, and we are speaking of some of the best, said being able to play what was in their head was their most wished for ability.****

Now, Rok, get ready, here it comes, fasten your seatbelt now, are you ready?, are you sure you're ready?, here it comes, I promise.........



!!!!THAT'S WHY THEY PRACTICE!!!!

Laughing...
guys let's get back to Jazz music discussion.

We seem to be in a "phase locked loop". I'm going to extract myself and move on.

Although David Pike's CD's cost more than most, his music is certainly more interesting than most. He covers a wide range of sounds that were popular in the 60's, from what I've heard so far, and I've only scratched the surface. In my 2-25-16 post, I mentioned "Pike's Peak" that I have in my collection; it stands repetition quite well, and that's an important quality, "repeated listening" means you can put it in a play list, and not throw it out when it comes up again.

I'm moving on to "Bossa Nova Carnival"
   
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRPDW2XIly4
   

on this page we find a few more of his works. I would like for you to review which ever CD you choose, and get back to us with that review. That will enable us to make better and quicker decisions on "new music".

One of the purposes of this thread is to aid in the acquisition of new music. This is our life's blood, and what makes us different from many other audiophiles.




Enjoy the music.

I left off you talking about Jazz Bassists;
Paul Chambers-

Tell Armsrong, Parker, Ellington,Miles, ect, it was not about intellect.

Study the origins of Bebop, then come back. They were studying everyday what the classical composers of their time were doing.

Same with Ellington. He went from dance band to Orchestral.

Always been about great musicians intellect. 

Mercy Lord, Mercy!!
Read my posts.  I told O-10 that all entertainers must practice.  Here it is.

***** O-10:

You don't have a leg to stand on.   ALL performers and entertainers practice their craft.  Even stand up comedians.

Your friend was just a Local guy.  Maybe he didn't practice because he knew his audience and their level of musical appreciation / sophistication.   Had he been trying to have a career in a p[lace like NYC, he would have practiced, or been on welfare.  ******

Do I have to say everything twice.  You people need to pay attention.
Now, if O-10 says his friend did not practice, who are we to say different.   Does not mean that can be applied to all musicians.

BTW, I don't practice either.  Wanna hear me play?  :)

Cheers

***** Tell Armsrong, Parker, Ellington,Miles, ect, it was not about intellect. *****

Tell the boys down in New Orleans it was about intellect.   They were the creators, lest we forget.   You misspelled Armstrong, That was the Lord's way of saying, 'don't you put Pops on that list"!

Cheers

***** Study the origins of Bebop, then come back. They were studying everyday what the classical composers of their time were doing.*****

This is what is called 'wishful thinking' .

(1) Name me some classical music that you can point to and say, "this is the origin of be-bop".   If anything, 20th century Classical Composers stole from Jazz.

(2) Jazz was around long before Be-bop.    Study that, then come back.

Cheers

Very sorry about spelling. 😱

I know , you know, all those men were genius.

I will have to get back with you. 

They were here listening and learning in music theory. Diminished cords, Sevenths, triads, all the nuts and bolts. 

Frogman, "professional athletes" practice, every "professional" practices. I made a statement that was taken way out of context, and we're still off to the races about that statement, although it was a very significant statement.

Let me expound on the important elements of that statement. You can not practice "improvisation"; every night that he was on the stage in front of a crowd, he was practicing because every night he was improvising.

I was talking about one uniquely gifted individual who had mastered his very complex instrument some time ago. Since he was performing three nights a week, there was absolutely no need for some kind of ritualistic practicing. Everything he was playing was in his head; this was music he needed to play, and get approval of, not from some teacher at "Julee yard", but from "his public", the people who knew him, and came to see and hear him.

I have never liked what's called "free jazz", it sounds like someone just playing a bunch of notes very fast, but when he played a lot of music fast, it was coherent and I understood it. The only thing I can compare to what he was playing is "Bird's Best Bop"; no matter how fast, and how much music Bird plays, it's coherent. Other musicians can attempt this, but they always fail, he was doing it.

This is as good as I can get in clarifying a unique situation, with a unique individual.





Enjoy the music.

O-10 it is not a good idea to bring personal relationships into this thread.   You knew this player and he was your friend.   The rest of us didn't know him, and we look at him  in an entirely 'objective' manner.

When I posted a guy I went to school with, you said he sucked.  I didn't protest because I always thought he was somewhat of  a noise-maker myself.

As pertains to all outstanding disagreements, I have declared victory, so, as Jafant says, Lets get back to the music.

Cheers

Rok, go back to my post 02-27-2016, 11: 49 AM

Frogman, FWIW, there is something condescending, I think, when some one feels that he needs to protect jazz history and it's fans from misinformation put forward by some folks, especially those who's motivation is as transparent as Rok and Orpheus. They are what they are, it is readily apparent to the most casual observer, and they are not going to change.

Its too bad that all of the great information that you and Learsfool can convey to the more pedestrian jazz lovers will be lost unless a new thread is created. The value of this thread is greatly diminished by its shear length and the rancor. Trying to find the gems is, forgive me, nothing less obnoxious that looking for pearls in pig shit.  Let Orpheus and Rok alone to their conversations in this thread should they continue to wish to do so (and I don't know why, or for how long, they would). 

I also agree with O-10 ,that his mystery musician friend , after years of practice , could hit a time where he was firing on all cylinders and also due to playing regularly , was able to move forward without practice. 

How long would that " zone"last ?????????? 

O gets a little cranky sometimes, but he would not make it up. 

Purple panther piss; I had to look that up, after I stopped laughing.

***** who's motivation is as transparent as Rok and Orpheus. They are what they are, it is readily apparent to the most casual observer, and they are not going to change.******

Could you elaborate?  This is not an 'audiophile' thread, here we say what we mean.   No need to beat around the bush.  I look forward to you explaining my 'motivation' to me.

Cheers

reference the newbee  post:

I am always amazed at the number of people who claim they depend on The Frogman to enlighten them about Jazz, but never make any input themselves.

They never ask any questions.   Never make any comment,  except to criticize the OP and me.  Always In the sense that the OP and I are keeping The Frogman and Learsfool from educating them.  We stand in their way!!

Well, this is an open forum.   You have as much access to our gurus as anyone else.  Nothing to say in over three years!  How much interest in Jazz could they really have?

But I think they are like comets of doom, that come this way every so often. They will soon return to  the land of audiophiles, never to be seen for another three years.

Allow me to state the obvious.   99.999% of what The Frogman and Learsfool post on this thread is in response to something or some subject introduced by The OP or myself.  There are several more regulars that post less often.

I don't know where we would be, without The Frogman and Learsfool's  knowledge and their ready willingness to share it.

I do know where we would be, if this thread depended on someone like newbee.   Like, nowhere man, nowhere.

Cheers

Rok, FWIW I stated several years ago my reasons for not actively participating in this thread. You can locate them and refresh yourself if need be. But the short version is this - I find it unrewarding to participate in a conversation with anyone who willingly ignores the difference between fact, fiction, and opinion, for any reason, but especially so when it is clear that their motivation is nothing more than that of ego reinforcement. 

Well, if my leaving meant that you would participate, I will gladly leave.   I can always read the thread.  I don't have to post.   I did leave once, and waited on the deluge of new posters.  Nothing happened.

I wish there were more posters, if I am the problem, I'm out of here.

Cheers

Newbee, please don't linger on my account; hurry up and go, let the backdoor hit you where the good Lord split you.

Rok, this stuff is getting outrageous, I would appreciate if you and Acman went back to my post at 11:49 today, and we proceeded from there.

Listened to David pike. The entire album.   Hard to find fault with Brazilian music.   This was pleasant enough,  but nothing exceptional.  Clark Terry was very subdued.  If you weren't paying attention you may not have noticed he was there.

If they don't really bang on the vibes, the notes will seem to run together.  Guess Hampton and Bags have spoiled me.

One thing about finding new music.  No only has it got to be new to you, but it has to be exceptional.   I liked this music, but I would not feel compelled to order it.

Speaking of Clark Terry, I was going to post him today, but the 'Ruckus' erupted and I was distracted.  Today's Listen was supposed to be -- 'COLOR CHANGES'.

Includes your boy  Yusef Lateef.  Check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36aF7B5hzv4&index=1&list=PLp2dpqr8nszQCnZ907ZEhA8GqBtHIgOvf

Cheers

Rok, I was thinking those same thoughts before I read your post. Nice easy listening music, but not nice enough for me to rush out and buy it. After acquiring the best jazz of two decades, we're kind of hard to please.

I like to listen, and then go through Nica's book, it seems as though I'm looking at old friends. As a matter of fact I've been looking at some other photo books, but after Nica's I feel that I would be disappointed.

Clark Terry's "Color Changes" is not for casual listners, it's to be savored, like the kind of cognac you pour in a brandy snifter, it's got some heavy personnel; Clark Terry - trumpet, flugelhorn
Yusef Lateef - tenor saxophone, flute, English horn, oboe
Seldon Powell - tenor saxophone, flute
Julius Watkins - French horn
Jimmy Knepper - trombone
Tommy Flanagan - piano
Budd Johnson - piano (track 6)
Joe Benjamin - bass
Ed Shaughnessy - drums

Julius Watkins was with Miles and Gil Evans, it's not often you hear French horn in jazz.  I like Yusef Lateef best on those strange kind of flutes he plays.

I'm not quite sure where we go from here, but I've been hearing some interesting female vocalists on the jazz station. If you think of anything, post it.



Enjoy the music.

This may not be Jazz, but it's beautiful.   She should be a Jazz singer. :)    I listen to her a lot.

Female Jazz singer could be the part of Jazz that's in the worst shape these days.   Once you get past Dee Dee and Salvant, pickings become very slim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFdQoYaijoU  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOT0jjkhTkw 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFJRX2DkHzQ  

Cheers

I've got that on record, with a big pretty picture of Randy; that's the only thing I miss about records. Her voice is smooth as silk, and the music behind her is fantastic on "Give Me The Night". That always reminds me of Atlanta, "The New York of the South", it was a fun town during the disco era.

I've been hearing some new female vocalists on this jazz station, but I have to get their play list in order to know who I'm listening to; they just play one song after another without announcing who it is. But pickings from the known female vocalists is slim.

Randy was a nice change of pace for me, it doesn't seem like she's been around that long.



Enjoy the music.

Here's a female vocalist you can add Karrin Allyson

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llQF9t8dfy0

You beat me, but good call, and a Kansas City girl I believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIE_PSLrwjY

Acman3 & O-10:

Karrin Allyson!!   WOW!!   You guys hit back to back home-runs.

Did you noticed the instruments on 'So Danco Samba' were very similar to the Dave Pike clip, but much better playing on Trumpet, Guitar, and much, much better Vibe playing.  Love that Brazilian music.

'Everything must Change' just had me motionless.   Fantastic.   Being from KC is good.   Great Jazz town.

Now this is the kind of 'New Music' that increases your collection.  Always good to meet new talent.   At least new to me.

Thanks for the clips.

Cheers

Newbee, your comments directed at me are valid. While I am not sure that I would characterize my motivation as condescending (certainly not in intent and as unbiased as I could hope to be), I can certainly understand why they could be viewed that way. I have struggled with this issue practically from the beginning of my participation in this thread and you are also quite correct that I may have underestimated just how transparent the motivation of some may be to others. Here’s the struggle:

Musicians are teachers by nature and that makes it almost impossible to stand by silent in the face of misinformation. That may seem grandiose to some, but it’s simply the way it is. Others’ motivation may be transparen to others, but motivation is not nearly as potentially misleading as bad and incorrect information. However, you are correct that the bullshit and rancor can only detract from what the thread may have to offer; limitations and all. So, my options are to simply ignore the incorrect information presented as fact or stop participating. The first option won’t work; can’t do that. So, while I am not prepared to say that I won’t visit this thread ever again, I think it’s time for a break from it.  Thanks for the candid commentary.

Wow.  First, to Newbee - I'm sure that you probably perceive me as being more condescending than Frogman, and I would totally understand that.  His justification that we are teachers by nature and therefore cannot stand by in the face of misinformation could not be better stated.  

O-10 - first, I agree with you 100% that Clark Terry's Color Changes is a really great album.  Julius Watkins was an amazing guy.  Not your typical horn sound, but he could play.  There are a couple of albums he made as a leader, believe it or not, but unfortunately they are very hard to find on LP because they happen to be Blue Notes, so the Japanese collectors go nuts and drive the prices up to outrageous amounts.  The group is called the Julius Watkins Sextet on those albums, I'm sorry I don't remember the titles.  Too tired to type more about Julius Watkins at the moment, but if you like, I have MUCH more to say about him - very interesting life he led.  I also have a discography of his somewhere, so I could look up those album titles on it, now that I think about it.  One of the most hilarious albums he made, by the way, is called French Horns For My Lady - if you ever see that in a record store, buy it (Philips label)!  More about that another time, if wanted, too.  

OK, there was one comment that I cannot let pass.  "Since he was performing three nights a week, there was absolutely no need for some kind of ritualistic practicing."  No, no, no, no, no.  This is dead wrong.  As Frogman and I have both explained, one MUST maintain one's chops to keep one's playing level to a certain standard.  So if your friend was not practicing that summer, that doesn't mean he couldn't play/perform - but it does mean that he was nowhere near his top playing level.  There is absolutely no way on earth he could have been, simply because the muscles must be kept in top shape.  Just like an athlete's, believe it or not, except we use much weaker muscle groups that have to last for much longer careers - you have to put in your daily routine, we call it, though it is not necessarily ritualistic, most of us vary it quite a bit.  There are definitely about 20 minutes worth of "warm-up" type exercises that I do in exactly the same way every day, but beyond that there would be another 20 minutes worth of exercises that would be varied depending on what type of playing I am doing at work, or have coming  up in the near future, or even distant future sometimes.  And if we don't practice, that is the same thing as an athlete not working out - they get out of shape VERY quickly, and so do we.  Again, I am not saying this means you can't play  (though for a professional brass player, you would never take an entire summer off, it would take a too long to get back to where you were - the most I have ever taken is one month off, and it took about three weeks after that to get back to top shape) - you are nowhere near your top level.  You have mentioned that your friend was very close to the end of a long life and career, too, which means that his playing was almost certainly  not at his peak anyway.  Just like with the athletes, this is one very unfortunate thing about being a musician - your mind and your musicianship are more highly developed than ever, but you can't do some of the stuff you used to do anymore.  I am just young enough to not quite be at that point in my career yet, but I am fast nearing it.  I'm at least several years behind Frogman in age, possibly even a decade.  I hope to have another twenty years in me, though it may end up being more like fifteen - as a brass player in particular, you never know for sure.....

Well, now that our so-called, 'condescending teachers', have had their say, lets let the 'students' speak.

First I would like for our OP to list all, or at least some of the things he has learned from The Frogman and Learsfool.  Learned about music.

I will do the same.   I'll go first.  Acman3 feel free to weigh in also.

(1)  I learned about the functions / duties of a section leader / Principal in a Symphony Orchestra from Learsfool.

(2)  From Learsfool, I also learned a bit about the financial side of Symphony Orchestras.

(3)  From Learsfool, I learned a bit about the World of Orchestra Conductors.  How they are hired, how does a person train to be one etc.....

From The Frogman, I was 'taught' That Stravinsky ranks right up there with Mozart as a Composer.  This went in one ear and out the other.

The Frogman also informed me that a certain clip of the Trumpet player, Tom Harrell, that I called 'noise', was actually the 'perfect' bebop solo.
I have never in my life ever heard or read of any performance by anyone being called 'perfect'.  I took that for what it was worth.


That's about it for me.  Not a lot after three years.  Looking forward to hearing what all the other 'students' learned from these self-appointed, 'teachers'.

I think they are both  full of themselves.   But that could be just one man's opinion.

Newbee did make a wonderful suggestion to The Frogman.   Why not start your own thread, then you can teach all of the 'pedestrian' Jazz Lovers of Audiogon.

BTW, If you have a few moments, could you list some of that 'misinformation' that O-10 and I put out?      Thanks.

Cheers