Is there a Solid State amp that can satisfy a SET guy?
Have been a SET guy for so long I have forgotten what a good SS amp even sounds like. Just bought a pair of $33k speakers that will replace my current $16k speakers. Both are from the same designer and both are 92db and a flat 8 ohms. The new ones arrive in 4 days! My 300B based amps well drive my current speakers even though I do use the system nightly as a 2 channel home theater. Especially considering the HT usage, I think I may enjoy a SS amp with many times the horsepower. The speaker designer suggests using a Leema Hydra II. I have written to Leema telling them of my 300B preference and they assure me that their amp does not have the destructive harmonics that make a SS amp bright. There must be other SS amps that can satisfy?
Seems to be a bit of a consensus that people prefer the 6sn7 circuit in the Suprateks.
Don't get me wrong, the DHT is very special, best way I can describe it is if you want your sound to sound like a live event go DHT but if you prefer studio type sound then 6SN7s, I haven't tried the 45s, I heard is the closest to 6SN7s from all DHTs.
but am also looking forward to comparing the different preamp typologies
Oh yeah go to town and report back please, as long as the wallet allows it right ;)
As you accurately state... you only learn by hearing the gear in your system.
This a great exercise not only to find out but also to "calibrate" your own hearing I can clearly hear difference with different tubes technologies, with the same tube and different manufacturer is harder for example Sylvania, Raytheon 6SN7s it is harder to tell how different they are, on the other hand Chinese cv181 new production sound very different. Same thing with wine once you have gulped 1000 bottles or so of different wines you can have an accurate baseline to keep comparing lol Really report back BTW Eml 20am don't know what it is was that a typo?
@luisma31 Great, thanks so much for the details. Seems to be a bit of a consensus that people prefer the 6sn7 circuit in the Suprateks.
I have SS amps (First Watt f4 monoblocks) that provide only current gain and have very little sound of their own as well (and have had both m60s and 300b SET monos in the system). Currently have a 6sn7 pre and have an eml-20AM based dht on the way. I love the current sound, but am also looking forward to comparing the different preamp typologies. I'm cheering for the dht because it's a custom build and resale will be difficult, but as always, the proof is in listening and whatever sounds best wins. As you accurately state... you only learn by hearing the gear in your system.
Supratek Cabernet Dual with 300B on one stage and 6SN7 on the other stage, in both cases the OTLs will preserve the nature of the sound in such a transparent way, I’m a neophyte with a short audio experience compared to many of you and professionals in the industry and just recently had the chance to empirically understand the "transparency" concept which Ralph @atmasphere commented to me years ago about his gear and I thought I understood what he was describing and I wasn’t, I thought transparency was a synonym to "clear" and "detailed" and kind of his but the real concept is "passing through unaltered", but you need to try gear on your system to find out about the differences (duh). The OTLs of course will provide dynamics and gain on the sound with perfect clear resolution but they won’t provide color, or even harshness to the sound and won’t change the "nature or tonality of the preamp sound". This is a blessing but also a curse, beware, you feed crappy sound and you will get crappy sound. I run an MP-1 on my system which (again) Edit:could be for the lack of a better word "disgustingly transparent", your source is magical you get magic, your source sucks and you will be disappointed. I thought on mentioning this since the OP got OTLs and he should be enjoying these very much.I don’t doubt SS and SET amps could be good but based on my limited experience if you want to experience SET sound you could perfectly match SET pre with Atma OTLs.I’ll be happy to provide more details @cal3713 if you ask
Good for you enjoying the M-60s. I have the MA-1s, excellent amps, if you use a DHT preamp with the M-60s these are so transparent that you will get the DHT lush sound, such sound although amazing is not my cup of tea for every day listening, I rather have a pre with 6SN7s, but that is just my preference.Congrats on the OTLs, it is hard to go back to SET or SS from there.
Mike, obviously we are in agreement on the M-60's. They are also my destination amps. I have no interest in looking elsewhere. I also agree that when everything else is right, or close to it, the M-60's deliver the best of all worlds. Sweetness, resolution, and enough power to drive most reasonably efficient speakers that are north of 8 Ohms. It is all there. It was a bit different for me however, in that they revealed some rather serious issues with my room and other pieces in my system. It took not a small effort for me to get everything else dialed in. That would be a caution I would issue to any one trying these amps. Others probably won't know right away, as you did, what these amps could deliver.
Well, now I have been enjoying my Atma-Sphere M-60s for a few months. They are destination amps. Right away, I deeply knew that I would never go back to SETs! The Atmas have the sweet, natural sound of SET 300bs with the detail of a great SS amp. The SET was wonderful but it really had a warm and lovely sound that covered up much of the music. I love the metaphor of the “ Sonics screwdriver loosening the sound”. Yes, I do miss the beautiful tone of the SET but any day would choose the accuracy of the Atmas. Interesting that I grabbed a Bakoon HA-01 headphone amp from US Audio Mart for $725. (kind of happy that they seem to now be a formidable competitor to Audiogon) It should come next week. Very curious to hear how it compares to my current HA, David Berning’s prototype of his great MICROZOTL. I believe the Bakoon will be a different kind of sound. Seems it may be a new take on SS performance. I will have it on trial. Let’s see if I keep it.
Perhaps with time invested in Pass Labs XA-25, First Watt SIT-3 you would come to see their beautiful strengths like I have experienced. That said, I love BOTH worlds so I have a Luxman switcher for when I want this or that...
How bad is tube rush from your listening positions with 300B SET amps?
This thread made me interested in auditioning a small 300B SET amp for a near field desktop system where high power isn't necessary. It might not be a good idea with high tube noise.
Brother, once tubes are in your system, nothing else satisfies like tubes. Your new 606’s sound like a dream! Is it me, or are these built upon a common open baffle theme? Take away the enclosed sub and what you have is an open baffle speaker. I previously owned open baffles with an AMT horn produced by the former Hawthorne audio company. The bass driver however was completely open like the upper drivers. Anyway, enjoy your 606’s, they appear truly beautiful!
Nothing will or can beat a good/great tube amp. My main goal for finding the perfect (for me) solid state amp (SIT3 is my choice with Luxman 590 AXII a close second) is because I play my system 12-18 hours a day when on. Tubes would worry me a little. I am not opposed to swapping around sometimes.
The Velvet E2 non SE is closer to the SIT3 than the SE version. Sometimes I wish I still had the non SE version for my Avantgarde. Only in comparison to the SE version, the non SE is not quite as clean on top but it’s a little sweeter/warmer and a little more "musical" at the expense of a little detail.
@joeinid How would you compare the SIT3 vs the Valvet E2-non SE? I owned the SIT3 and found it to be the best SS amp I've heard, but still slightly preferred my Aric Transcend amp in Triode with no NF....just a little bit more organic tubey presentation.
I have not gone back to the F7 since the initial few days. We’ve had a storm pass through, no power for almost 3 days and with some frequent brown outs, have not had the stereo on much at all this past week.
While I’ve initially loved and love the F7, my main amp is and has been the SIT3 on my Avantgarde. I eventually need to put the F7 back in rotation, but my SIT3 has been just so wonderful for me, I’m getting a little lazy swapping out gear.
How you liking the F7 these days ? I remember you were mentioning the F7 had a bit bigger soundstage and a little more detail than the valvet - still feel that way ?
@atmasphere , yes, some Tokin devices are still available but they are no longer manufactured (I have some NOS). The Tokin devices were manufactured for telecomunication and were never as linear as the Sony or Yamaha choices...or the original NECs for that matter.
Not sure if @teo-audio was suggesting a new design of an one-off amp or a small batch production. The later would not be feasible with the current levels of NOS Tokins.
True, interesting how smicinductors just go away....
@sonetduo Nelson Pass had some made but then the semiconductor house went belly up. Unlike the Sony and Yamaha devices, you can actually kinda sorta find the Tokin devices... So that's about as close to 'common' with these things as it gets!
Funny that tubes like the 6SN7 that were considered obsolete 55 years ago you can still get brand new, but semiconductors go out of production when the wind changes, and when they're gone, that's pretty much it.
@atmasphere , you are right on the money....yes, VFET is a SIT transistor. Tonkin (NEC), nor any other manufacturer make SIT devices today....not that I am aware of.
@teo_audio I am having a hard time fallowing your message?? Linear, yes, SIT devices are the most linear SS devices ever made, but they are no longer made anywhere. Are you implying a new design, new build?
BTW, VFET and not V-fet is the name that Sony used in the 70s.
IMHO, the most sensible approach is to use a fully restored and enhanced Yamaha B-1, B-2 or another powerful choice from Sony. For preamp the choices are limited to Yamaha C-1 as this was the only Vfet preamp ever build, and even the C-1 uses some J-fets in the signal path..Yes, the C-1 is very "busy" but the tone section can be defeated and the line stage is stunning. The tone controll section in the C-1 is also handled mostly by SIT devices and it becomes useful if the listening room is not ideal.
The entire signal path between the Yamaha C-1 and B-1 is all Fet, with the majority of the signal being handled by Vfet/SIT devices.
Both the amp and preamp are 40 years old by now and need proper rehab....NO, a simple recap would not do...and YES, once restored, they sound sublime....as they should since they make use the most linear transistor type ever made.
I have heard two SS amps that get close to 300b SET. Bakoon (I have the 12R - it has been replaced by the 13R) and Ancient Audio A-3 (http://www.ancient.com.pl/e_a-3.htm).
There is a Japanese company making some decently high powered ones, can’t remember their name.
@teo_audio
If you are talking about 'VFETs' (Static Induction Transistors or SITs, are the exact same thing as VFETs FWIW...) then the name is Tokin. But you would have to sort out how to make an amplifier with these devices...
My budget for an amp is below $10kish. I have a First Watt M2 and it is nice but I miss the 300B sound. Can’t stand the “linear” sound. I love it “juicy”.
You need linear gain devices, like tubes.
the only linear gain SS devices are V-Fets, and Nelson’’s ’first watt’ SIT devices, and the Japanese equivalents. There is a Japanese company making some decently high powered ones, can’t remember their name.
the gain of the device MUST be linear, gain MUST be linear, NOT the non-linear gain of ALL transistors, of ALL types. MUST be linear like a triode.
This is high end audio, accurate, real audio. the rest is just dressed up cheapo schlock, from $50 to $200k, is is all the same. Non linear gain schlock and dreck. Seriously.
The future of high end can be moved to being back on track, to the place it should have been, when the cheapo non linear and odd order distortion "transistor" showed it’s face on the scene.
Sony corrected that with the creation and introduction of the V-fet, but the market was too far gone off course to understand it.
But some kept the torch alive.
For a V-fet to be useful to you, it needs to be a total pathway that is all V-Fet, the whole way through the given electronic pathway in the given amplifying device. And small-signal V-Fets or SIT’s are very rare.
Your quest is a powerful one but poorly realized as items to pursue may go. There is one single company in japan. And that’s it. the small transistors and the big high power transistors in the given amplifier must ALL be of the linear gain SIT and V-fet type, and very very few ’small signal’ or smaller linear gain transistors were ever made.
Triode real world transient functions in a tin can...can only be found in linear gain devices like V-Fets and SIT transistors. No other expenditure of monies can come close or equal it at all.
In the path you walk...the other 200k, 300k, or 2-3 million types of transistors (It’s a huge number) are all garbage, in comparison. Not worth bothering with at all. Don’t even try. Don’t waste your life energies or monies, as there is nothing there.
You may still be able to enjoy the music and hum along for a few bars, but not a single one of them will have the magic that our ears literally depend upon.
When it comes to solid state devices...Only the SIT and the V-Fet transistors are capable of that.
You understand that we make world class, new physics cables, yes?... and we depend on the high end market and... I’m seemingly attacking it’s core, at it’s peak $$$k levels?
This issue is real but very poorly realized. To the point few understand what is missing and what was lost. This is a move to a correction and in that there will be blood spilled, there will be changes, and it will move slow. We only have so much time in life to spend... so spend it wisely.
Move to V-Fet and SIT when and where you can, as the wait will be near impossible, and take a very long time, if it even occurs at all. The entire audio market and whole transistor world is too far gone down the wrong road. the correction, if any, will take about, oh.. 25 years, if it happens at all.
If one is to be alive at and throughout the given timeframe (we are all aging), that is.
Thus, one grabs the SIT and V-Fet devices where they can. Dog eat dog and run like a thief in the night... among the ones who are conscious of the problem at hand and the solutions available.
I’ve owned all those you’ve mentioned. My speakers are Avantgarde Duo XD so a more normal speaker might yield slightly different results.
The Pass XA25 is a wonderful amp but very neutral to my ear. Power is easily double rated output. Powerful bass, smooth highs and nice open sound. Very quiet.
The Valvet E2se (also had the non SE version) is a superb amp. Most likely half or actually one quarter of the output of the XA25. For my taste, I think I may slightly prefer the non SE version. It’s a little warmer, sweeter and overall a little more smoothed over. The E2se is cleaner and more see through because of upgraded parts and wires. This is my taste because I usually prefer a warmer/sweeter sound. Both Valvet amps are superb, just match them appropriately. If you love a little more neutrality, go for the SE - power feels ballsier than rated.
The SIT3, on my Avantgarde, is my absolute favorite. Warm/sweet, a little soft but with detail, full, meaty, awesome vocals, rounded and slightly puffy bass. It’s listen all day and night awesome to me. The SIT1 is the energetic and more lively version of the SIT3. I had the monos. If my room was bigger and my speakers further away, I’d likely enjoy/prefer the SIT1 as much or more. The SIT1 is a little more forward, open, more front or second row perspective with TREMENDOUS 3D and a giant soundstage. It has to be heard to be believed. The SIT3 is more mid hall effect and a little more distant. The SIT3 is more intimate. Again, my taste.
All above amps are dead quiet and amazing performers. These are my opinions only.
Thank you for your post mentioning the m2tech Crosby amp. I recently got one and my friend also has one and we recently attempted to connect them as bridged following the user guide directions, but without success. I switched both amps to bridged, connected the preamp (also a m2tech Young preamp) to each amps red input, and connected the speaker leads for each channel to their red outputs per the instructions. Result, no sound.
Bricasti makes very nice amplifiers that to my ear come very close. A deHavilland Mercury 3 would add to the spaciousness and I hear no electronic noise.
Yeah, something wasn't right with the parasound. If I recall it had plenty of rated power. I wasn't using phono , btw. I've been purely digital for years now, CD and streaming only. I grew up with vinyl but physical space and convenience pushed me over the edge. It also freed up money for better equipment. :-)
... the Parasound Hint 6 which required volume of 75% to get moderate listening level. Klipsch are extremely sensitive so this puzzled me. The dealer thought it was normal, I thought the amp was faulty though everything appears to work otherwise.
@jet88, I suspect you were right, unless the issue was only occurring while using a low output moving coil cartridge into the Hint 6's phono stage
For all of its other inputs the gains provided by the Hint 6 are pretty typical, spec'd as 10 db line stage, 28 db amplifier stage, 41 db MM phono stage. But the gain of the LOMC phono stage is only 54 db, significantly below average.
Another vote for Luxman or Accuphase. I'm biased towards Japanese SS though, as my experience (and ear/taste) prefers the ultra -clean, dead neutral, nothing between you and the music**, yet smooth and silky sound. And I roll with horns, Klipsch Cornwall IV's. Not a hint of brightness, harshness, or "shouty" horn.
I demoed about 10 amps available in my area, Parasound, Pass, Levinson, McIntosh, most of the usual names, and finally chose the Luxman L509X. The others were all nice amps, no bones about it, excepting the Parasound Hint 6 which required volume of 75% to get moderate listening level. Klipsch are extremely sensitive so this puzzled me. The dealer thought it was normal, I thought the amp was faulty though everything appears to work otherwise. The Luxman I bought here and it's just a wonderful, beautiful sounding amp.
** The Klipsch are already unapologetic in exposing the flaws of subpar recordings, and coupled with the Luxman, the effect can be ruthless. Something like Hazards of Love by the Decemberists though? Spectacular...
Well, I have put down a deposit for my M 60 demo. It should be ready next week. And I should have it week after. Surely, I am excited to get it. One of the poetic comments in a post that gave me real insight into the SET sound was, I paraphrase: “SET sound is like a sonic screwdriver loosening the tone”. Metaphoric but clear, certainly when compared to SS tone, SET tone kind of has a looser tone relative to a SS exact tone. Another clear phrase is that, in SET tone, those who love it call it warm and those who don’t call it distortion. I do love that warm distortion but do look forward to maintaining much of the rich, organic SET nature while gaining SS clarity. Thus with the Atma-spheres. I was asked about my preamp and speakers. Audible Illusions M3B with John Curl gold phono boards and Tetra 606 speakers. Interesting is that I imagine the AI pre, being single ended and triode, may have a similar nature to the M 60 Atma-Sphere. Very neutral and clear without imposing much of its’ own sound signature. It is not particularly warm but also not particularly cold. Maybe also the Tetras. Very natural not imposing any sound of their own. And I do have a safeguard in mind. Am seriously considering a Zesto phono stage that definitely has a delicious classic tube sound. So, for music playback, I should be able to combine that tube sound with the more neutral signature of the Atma-Sphere. And for my HT evenings, enjoy the clarity, focus and accuracy of the M 60!
@mglik, I think you are correct in your analysis. As I stated earlier, I made the transition from my 300B amps to the M-60's and couldn't be happier. I went for the power supply upgrade plus the V-Caps, which I think is well worth the cost. Careful selection of the 6SN7 tubes is important, as these amps will not come close to their potential with the stock tubes. In my case, I think pairing the M-60's with my 101D based preamp is also a very happy pairing, and gives the system a bit of that DHT magic without the downsides articulated so well by Ralph. The M-60's are destination amps for me. No interest in trying anything else for my main rig. Please keep us posted on your results.
"I've got a Pass XA30.5 and a Golden Tube SE40. I'm rigged to switch
between them depending on what I'm listening to. Both so good, but
different." What preamp and speakers do you have, and can you say more about the differences? I have GTA SE40 configured as monoblocks, Supratek Syrah preamp and Sonus Faber Signum monitors. I've had this system for almost 20 years, and thinking that I should try a SS amp, looking seriously at the Pass XA25. Thanks.
Many years ago I had an Atma-Sphere S 30. It had beautiful clarity although at that time I felt it leaned toward a SS sound. Because of this animated and informative discussion, I have come to much better understand the qualitative elements that make for good SS sound and good 300B SET sound. It is surely a mistake to generalize, although the essential and main difference is that SS is an intellectual perspective and SET an emotional one. I just spent 3 days listening to my First Watt M2 in place of my 300Bs. As it was wisely said: it is a different paradigm. I did appreciate the tight bass and the fine details but missed the SET. Today I put the tubes back in and it was a big ahhhh... ! Instead of using my head and enjoying the qualities of the SS M2, I again am using my gut. It’s visceral. However, the good SS qualities and good ones of SET may be embodied in Atma-Sphere MA 60s. As we all know, Ralph has been a deeply seasoned source of knowledge and information. His statements about my intellectual/emotional understanding referring to how the brain interprets sound has been transformative. I believe I now am aware of the negative aspects of SET. That is, pthe lose of focus, distortion, etc. I believe the Atma-Spheres may balance clarity and emotion in a way that my evolved perspective can perceive and appreciate. If the thread continues, I will report on the results of the MA 60s. The Bakoon 13R is still of significant interest. I cannot discount how I may or may not care for it. But my understanding that tubes, especially in an OTL, have a physicality that cannot be duplicated. After all I have come to understand through this thread, I think that the Atma-Sphere is my best bet. Time will tell.
I’d love to hear that comparison. The NA dealer is offering free shipping and 45d in home demos right now on the Bakoon 13R (perks of being a small amp)
Sometime over the next 6-12 months I’d like to get the Bakoon in and compare vs the XA25 and the LTA UL. What I hope is for it to be a mix of the two. My rudimentary understanding of the circuit leads me to believe that the reduced damping relative to the XA25 might produce a "juicier" sound (more body, air and ), without compromising detail retrieval and those wonderful transients.
How does the Valvet compare to the XA25 and the SIT1/3 ? Assuming it’s the e2se ?
I'd like to try a Bakoon against my Valvet/Passxa25/First Watt Sit 1 + 3 etc....problem is they are almost impossible to re-sell due to their lack of a following here in the USA. So its a REAL Gamble investing in one without auditioning. Im going to assume you also cant get a 20+% Discount off the MSRP because of the limited # of dealers. I am sure they sound absolutely wonderful.
This is actually developing into really good thread.I suspect a lot of the posters here really do have good sounding systems.And I am not talking in the "hi fi" sounding sense.And that is perhaps what is great about SETs.I know that if I am going to listen to a system using a good a SET I know I am likely to hear some great music.Not just some soulless "audiophile " pap.Perhaps another way of rephrasing the original title could be-"If you like SETs what other amplifiers do you also enjoy listening to" .In my case it is the Bakoons.Indeed that is exactly how I would describe them.Which does not mean they sound exactly like a good SET.They don't but they have the musical essence of a really good SET. But I am sure there are others and it is great to hear about them.
I to am very interested in hearing the LTA amps. As you all probably know, these are all David Bernings designs implemented by Linear Tube Audio at much more reasonable price points. David Berning is a brilliant designer and engineer who has been granted a patent for his ZOTL design and really thinks outside the box.
The other name brand that has mentioned in this thread is Valvet. Every time I look at the pictures inside these amps and see the simplicity of the build quality and how few parts are being used I want to hear them.
Sansui go on for almost 50 years in audio and the goal for their last 30 years was reproducing their best tube amplifier sound (1965) in a solid state version(1995), they accomplish that after more than 30 years of continuous research... Name one company in audio that have the same goal for 30 years ? Not an indefinite improvement goal, nor a general one, but a very difficult task and precise one, finally accomplished just before their bankrupcy.....Read that review... this is astounding...
My rightly embedded Sansui is the AU-7700 and gives me great dynamic with organic sound without feeling any lacks in details... I embed it rightfully tough, controlling mechanically for resonance, and electrically for a lower noise in the electrical house grid and in my room controlled acoustics I dont feel at all any lack attributed to S.S. amplifiers in general....I own also one Sansui of the alpha series.....
A reminder: it is way more important to embed rightly any electronic component than even upgrading it, because you will never know his true potential S.Q. without a rightful embeddings in the 3 dimensions : mechanic, electric, and acoustic....
There is no comparison at all between the same amplifier rightly embedded and not rightly embedded....This is true for any amplifier.....Out of the box without treating any embeddings dimension is not the way to use ANY electronic component....
ag3__ description on the XA25 is spot on with my experiences. In my system, I use a Cary 805C (845 SET) and XA25. I switch between the two based upon the music and my mood at the time. Generally, I prefer the Cary.
The Pass is a very good amp, much preferred to my ears over the SIT3 however I don’t believe that my speakers are the best match for the SIT3 so please take that into consideration (Tannoy Eaton ~ 89db @ 8 ohm). That said, I find the SIT3 too rounded for my taste.
The XA25 gives you phenomenal transients, accurate bass (not heavy), lots of color, great staging & imaging. It presents an incredible amount of detail while sounding relaxed. However in contrast to the LTA UL - it is drier. The tone color is there, but the juice and body isn’t there to the same extent. You still know it’s a solid state amp in a A/B comp.
All in though - very highly recommended. It tends to be the main amp in my rig for most music. Prefer the XA25 for jazz, fusion, blues etc., but the UL takes the cake for classical !
If I could combine the UL and the Pass - I’d be done. The Bakoon 13R is on my list, looking forward to the 6moons review of the XA25 INT vs the Bakoon. I’m curious to know if the Bakoon is less "dry" sounding (again relatively speaking) than the XA25.
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