What was the most used source at RMAF?
What was the second most used source at RMAF? |
wow!, This thread is still around!, I admitt, I agree entirely with knownothing's post, I have talked to many distributors and dealers, They believe, with the thousands of cd's that are out there in every one's library of music, disc spinners will be here for a very, very, long time from now, although computer audio and streamers are taking hold of some market, it is really only 5% of the entire high-end audio!, Most of the market bares transports, dacs, cd-players, analog turn tables, we all may be dead and gone before computer audio surpasses the way of digital and analog as we know it now, may be an opinion of the dealers and distributors, However, I must say, I agree with them, cheers. |
If you have any PC with a decent quality optical drive, Windows Media Player can be configured to rip to lossless .wav file format very easily. THis works very well, just make sure WMP displays the tags correctly before starting the rip because editing .wav file tags after the fact is not easy.
Once ripped, you can use the free version of MEdia Monkey to convert to otehr formats as needed. FLAC is best overall for sound quality and tagging.
Or a small investment in dbpoweramp will give you most everything you need to rip and tag fairly easily as well. Add MusicBRainz Picard to help with autotagging where possible and you are quite armed and dangerous for very little investment, although all tools will have a modest learning curve up front to figure out how to use them best in each case. |
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Readily available...and affordable ripping service. I could use a service like that.
. |
The fact that the original topic merits 6 pages of discussions verifies that this is an important issue in modern HiFi, and still very unsettled. The fact that it has morphed into a discussion about critically important implementation of somewhat arcane data standards, transfer and management techniques indicates that getting data off a computer HD has attained a level of complication for our community on a par with tracking force and tonearm-cartridge compliance. Welcome to the new Black Hole Source.
I use and enjoy computer audio at work, and even my modest desktop 2.1 system sounds distractingly good. But when I get home after pounding on my keyboard all day, I am happy to drop a disk in the drawer, or if I have enough energy, cue up an LP, and then sit back... and send you all a message on my phone.
I agree that when a system as easy to use and as well implemented as the Meridian becomes affordable, and original DSD or similar quality source material becomes adequately diverse and widely available, through streaming let's say. then I might be eager to fully migrate both my home rigs as well.
Also, how about more readily available ripping services where I drop off a box of CDs on the corner in the morning like my laundry, somebody rips them to my jump drive for me, and I can pick them up in the evening on the way home?
Computer audio implemented from a laptop just doesn't feel like fun to me right now. Even the gorgeous Meridian touch screen seems more like an appliance than audio exotica. A well implemented and expensive appliance maybe, but also very similar to my desktop computer screen. Just saying...
Interesting thread though, I must say.
kn |
09-13-14: Cerrot
You guys will find that usb is the poorest interface. Glad to see the experiment because the masses were given USB from the beginning and with blinders firmly installed, have never looked past it. The belly button interface - every computer has one. Must be the best way to get sound out of a computer-NOT. Look at what travels along a USB bus - all the pollution Why would I want my music coming put of a USB port? Some guys are at least investing in a USB PCI or PCIe card, which is a thousand times better than the standard usb port. Agreed, but it can by hacked with galvanic isolation, etc. Also, a good USB cable that filters noise is a must. A standard USB cable is deficient IMO.... |
"Also I am playing music in double DSD and don't think SP Dif can do that." Right nor can it do HD/DSD multichannel. |
Cerrot, I certainly shared your opinion of the USB connection earlier and even sold my USB Dac 1 Pre even after an improved USB input was installed. But BMC certainly improved the USB input in their new PureDac and with their Pure USB-1 cable.
Also I am playing music in double DSD and don't think SP Dif can do that. |
You guys will find that usb is the poorest interface. Glad to see the experiment because the masses were given USB from the beginning and with blinders firmly installed, have never looked past it. The belly button interface - every computer has one. Must be the best way to get sound out of a computer-NOT. Look at what travels along a USB bus - all the pollution Why would I want my music coming put of a USB port? Some guys are at least investing in a USB PCI or PCIe card, which is a thousand times better than the standard usb port. |
The NAS will be better than the Mini if you believe less is more. I have a Synology and run MinimServer on it. A 4 bay model with 4 1TB Western Digtal Red drives in Raid 1 configuration.
The flash drive by LessLoss won't be able to crush anything if they do not get it out to market. I understand pricing could reach stratospheric levels and therefore only be able affordable to a minority of audiophiles.
For the money the Aries is too good to be true. So I am eager to get in in my system. I really had eyes on the Sonore Rendu but the new version is nearly 3k and I do not believe it offers as many features as the Aries. |
Clio, keep us posted on your findings. I like my Aries. I am still screwing around with things. I run a faux NAS via a Mac Mini using Minimserver and have wondered if dedicated, audiophile grade NAS would be better in terms of SQ.
My gut still tells me that a true flash drive transport such as the one being created by Lessloss will crush everything we are currently using.... |
What I like about Ethernet is there is no timing involved from the NAS to the streamer. Also, in my case since the streamer and renderer are one and the same, the clocking is done at only one point in the chain. In my opinion this is probably the simplest signal path.
Now to leverage my Lessloss DAC I just purchased an Auralic Aries. This set up will require a cable between it and the DAC with asynchronous clocking. Not necessarily a bad thing, just one more step in the chain. It will be interesting to see how this set up works out.
FWIW I also own an Audiophileo USB converter. It's in the closet right now, but it served me quite well before I put all my eggs in the Ethernet basket. |
My mind keeps floating back to what is the optimal digital interface for connecting your "computer" to a dac. As Clio suggested earlier in the thread, I am wondering whether Ethernet is inherently superior to other options such as USB. More technical heads out there than moi please chime in.... |
Thanks, Raymonda. Since my interest is only in extracting files and not in remastering, I will stick with EAC and dbPowerAmp. |
EAC is a good program for extracting data from discs but for creating audio files WaveLab kills EAC. WaveLab is a full mastering program which allows for all kinds of flexibility from creating and mastering two track recordings to 48 track mixes. Yes....that is way more than you'll need but what it can provide for your 2 track data will amaze you. It has all kinds of plug ins that will come in handy. It also can help with system set up, too. Take a look at their website for more information. It is $500 well spent. |
Joecasey
Joecasey, I agree but it does suggest that the longer time means that errors are more common, that Essence of Music reduces them. It probably does not mean much in ripping, but the ripping with the treatment sounds noticeably better, and I suspect that on a universal player would be quite a good deal better.
There are tons of benchmarks extracting data off different media. It's a known issue and impact greatly magnified in real time.
I don't understand what this has to do with the improvement in the quality of the rip or with the speed of ripping. |
09-08-14: Tbg
Joecasey, I agree but it does suggest that the longer time means that errors are more common, that Essence of Music reduces them. It probably does not mean much in ripping, but the ripping with the treatment sounds noticeably better, and I suspect that on a universal player would be quite a good deal better. There are tons of benchmarks extracting data off different mediums. It's a known issue and impact greatly magnified in real time. |
Joecasey, I agree but it does suggest that the longer time means that errors are more common, that Essence of Music reduces them. It probably does not mean much in ripping, but the ripping with the treatment sounds noticeably better, and I suspect that on a universal player would be quite a good deal better. |
09-07-14: Tbg
My music server comes with a TEAC optical drive with Linux program for ripping with many checks for errors. I have found that ripping is much faster when the cds are treated with the Essence of Music cd treatment and clearly sound better also. Does the time to treat a cd negate the shorter ripped time of a treated cd? Since ripping is not real-time, it really doesn't matter IMO. |
Hi Joecasey, and every one, I have on my computer Ashampoo studio 8, I burn cds to computer to blank cds for recording, full format, no compressed files, and yes, down loads to, and un compress them to normal format to go on cd for play back, I just do not know if the soft ware I have that my computer repair friend put on this computer he built for me is High-end, I know fellas, Do Not laugh here at me, Though I still believe computer audio cannot match a good digital or analog cable on a profound dac or cd-player, I would like to learn from all of you!, I do need to be with the times!, maybe a state of the art music server would be great, like I believe TBG may be getting?,currently, I would like to attempt to do my best with little money to achieve best results for recording?, I am going to write down the three software recommendations thus far, how much money does something like this cost, what do any of you think about the Ashampoo studio 8 I mentioned?, cheers. |
My music server comes with a TEAC optical drive with Linux program for ripping with many checks for errors. I have found that ripping is much faster when the cds are treated with the Essence of Music cd treatment and clearly sound better also. |
09-07-14: Audiolabyrinth
What's one of the better computer audio software available to rip music to cds for playback through my cd player for my system?, Thankyou gentleman in advance. Audiolabyrinth, What do you rip and burn to cds? Downloads? So you're creating another level of work and transformation. Interesting! |
What advantages does WaveLab offer over dBPowerAmp or EAC? |
Steinberg's WaveLab. It is a mastering program and has many useful plug ins. It is more than you need but many of the things it provides will be exceedingly useful. |
What's one of the better computer audio software available to rip music to cds for playback through my cd player for my system?, Thankyou gentleman in advance. |
09-06-14: Mapman
Tortilla is right about the value of using a network to get the data to the player. I agree 100%. It makes what you use as the computer essentially irrelevant in regards to sound quality. As long as there is enough storage and processing power streaming is a trivial task for most any computer made in the last 10 years. I have tried many configurations this way and the sound quality does not vary into same DAC. Whereas sound quality with computer based play software is all over the place. USB implementation is a significant factor as well, but software used to play seems to be the biggest variable I hear to-date. +1 |
Tortilla is right about the value of using a network to get the data to the player. I agree 100%. It makes what you use as the computer essentially irrelevant in regards to sound quality. As long as there is enough storage and processing power streaming is a trivial task for most any computer made in the last 10 years. I have tried many configurations this way and the sound quality does not vary into same DAC. Whereas sound quality with computer based play software is all over the place. USB implementation is a significant factor as well, but software used to play seems to be the biggest variable I hear to-date. |
I had always been very skeptical about the sound quality of computer-based digital playback. It seemed convenient but not very musical. After hearing a Wavelength Brick driven by a Mac Mini at a show a few years ago, my perspective changed.
I have had a Sony 5400ES, a modwright-modded Sony 9000ES, an Ayre CX-7 and many other highly regarded disc players that retail for up to $3500, but none of them compared to what I heard at this show (where they won the best of show award).
Since then, I purchased the Mac Mini and Wavelength Brick and was loving it. About a year ago I upgraded to the Ayre QB-9. In many ways, it sounded better than the Brick, but something was missing.
A few months ago, I upgraded to the Wavelength Cosecant V3 with their best DAC module - Denominator - and their high speed motherboard. This DAC now plays digital files up to 24/192 and sounds incredible. The Cosecant is probably the most musical and enjoyable component I have ever purchased, and I started buying audiophile gear in 1980. In fact, there are some high resolution discs that in many ways actually sound better via my Mac Mini/Amarra/Cosecant than they do on my vinyl rig (see system).
Computer Audio IS very convenient, but this DAC has the lowest measured jitter of any DAC (according to John Atkinson), and many have found that ripped files played back via computer are reproduced better than $10,000 transports. Another great benefit is that my wife finds it so convenient amd enjoyable, that she listens to music a lot more and does not object to upgrading my gear.
I HIGHLY recommend trying one if these Wavelength DACs with a computer. I never knew digital files could sound so musical. |
Raymonda,
Thanks, I look forward to finding these CDs of yours and listening, I love jazz.
Charles, |
I record in either 24/48 or 24/96 for my multi track gigs. Admittedly I'm a small fish in the world or recording engineering. The beauty of digital is that once I mix down to track and master the mix a file copy of that 2 track will sound the same as the master. The only difference will be in sound will occur due to the difference in playback hardware. I've never worked in DSD but many rave it's sound.
When I archive and transfer analog tape I use 24/96. Believe it or not there is a current argument claiming that properly dithered 16/44 or less, is all that is needed to to maximize the transfer resolution of any analog tape. I've been involve in some of these discussion and don't subscribe to this belief and argue that my own listening test tell my ears otherwise but these folks are smarter than me and throw all kinds of math and science at me telling me I'm buying snake oil and only gilding the lily by using anything beyond 16/44.
If anyone is interested in my work, which is all on location live concert recording, I would point you to Frank Vignola Trio with Bucky Pizzarelli, Live Standards or Felipe Salles, Timeline, or Ronnie Leigh, live at Apple Jazz...to name a few. These are only available in cd but I do have the hi res 2 track master mix. I also have 3 more releases coming out next month.... 1 is a limited run surround mix, the second is a blue ray dvd....which will have 24/48 audio and the 3 will be a mostly acoustic jazz concert on cd. All of these will be released on the Apple Jazz lable.
I'm not trying to pedal my wares but give you a frame of reference from which I speak, albeit, just a very small part of a much larger industry. |
Tortilladc, I agree with you that a $200 chromebook would sound as good as a $2000 game rig. Both would be little better than MP3.
I am not interested in such noise. |
Network-based audio playback is definitely the future as it is for multimedia in general. Just as there has been an explosion of manufacturers jumping into the DAC business, more network players are right around the corner.
If you're using your PC or MAC as a DAC or digital source hardwired to a DAC then sure you can argue all day and night about the pros/cons of USB, firewire or any other physical interface, quality of PSU's, fan noise or whatever. But if you're streaming your music over wifi (not bluetooth in its current state) then it won't take long for those variables to be made irrelevant by the very nature of how networked computers work - hardware and software layer abstraction.
So long as your network is up to par, a $200 chromebook will feed your networked DAC the same file as a $2,000 gaming rig. And home based networks have been more than capable of doing this for a long time with minimal router tweaking by users.
Additionally, you can't talk about computer based audio in terms of quality without admitting that in terms for, DISCOVERY, computer-based audio is already unparalleled and getting even better.
For the record, I've been building gaming PC's from scratch for years. All the music I buy nowadays is vinyl (new or used) and I use Rdio extensively. |
09-02-14: Raymonda
Charles....I find both done right to sound fantastic and I'm not trying to convince anyone one is better but rather that the premise that computer audio is bad....wrong or dead is way off base. Again..computer audio is the way most recording are created and sound fantastic.
Let me put it this way; a recent recording project did for a client, consisting of the group Spyro Gyra was a 26 track recording. If you were afforded the hardware....software....and tracks....would you like to have total control of your mix and afterwards would you burn it to a disc for playback in a cd player or would you save a 2 track file and use this as your playback reference? My guess is the later.....which is how most engineers keep and listen to their 2 track master mixes. Not that it doesn't get burned to a disc but that the file is saved, archived and referenced on a computer and a hard drive. A dedicated computer based system for sure but today, for most people, it is not hard to put together a dedicated computer based system.....and can cost a whole lot less than a sota cd player.
My point about Spyro Gyra was made because...In the not too distant future this might be possible.....at first I can see it starting with the ambient mix....then surround....then limited track mix....and then total mix. The variables that would need to be reconciled is distribution. ..royalies...and artist creative control. The latter is the biggest...but doable.
You might think that it could never happen but it could....copy protection of some sort could be applied...everything could be save in a cloud and payment could be fee for access. Your home hardware could be the restriction point for protection through software loaded on your computer.
Sound crazy...but so was the light
bulb....telephone....radio...and lp. All this can happen..and nd someday will. Sorry to take off an a tangent....but this is along way of saying computer audio ain't dead but rather just beginning. Ray, I appreciate your input. You highlight the harsh reality of the situation and that is that plastic is going away. This thread is really an academic exercise. If anyone is paying attention, CD sales are lagging significantly due to the phenomenon of streamed content and downloads. Its a good thing as Ray insinuates since you have control over your own content choices in terms of resolution, etc. Ray, for personal listening, what gets you closest to the master? RB, 24/96, what? Thoughts on DSD? |
So there...posted twice for emphasis.
In all seriousness, it still intrigues me that plastic remains in the game due to perceptions of SQ superiority. I have been reading about the Devaliet stuff recently (thanks Erik), and even a reviewer type admitted to preferring the slightly more analog presentation of a Wadia spinner.
Again, for the record, I respect and believe my fellow philes who still cling to plastic (JesusaO/Danaiel, I was not trying to out you as a rube) in the name of SQ. I am not a true computer devotee but rather a lazy streamer type (Auralic Aries). Streaming technology can put you in the same ballpark as a computer and/or plastic spinner minus the hassles of either platform. Just my two cents. Arguably, it can still require modding or tweaking to to this, but I like to leave that up to people who feed their kids designing audio equipment rather than thumb my way through things as Joe DIY. |
Hi Joe,
Agree!
Regards,
Charles, |
09-03-14: Charles1dad
Joe ,
I can appreciate you're happy with computer audio and that's fine. I guess you take this issue more seriously than I. For me they don't sound better and thus I felt no need to to take it further. You chose that direction and that's good for you. I see no point in turning this into some battle, it isn't that important. I'm forced to work with computers all day at work and feel comfortable with them. Just don't want them in my audio system at home, for those who do, enjoy.
Charles,
Charles1dad (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread) Frankly I could care less what anybody do except for myself. Like you, I'm just contributing and offering my .02. Nothing more and nothing less. |
I agree with Raymonda on this subject - namely, that computer audio is rather a blessing than a bust I agree with that too. Computer audio sounds better here. Also, once CD's are ripped, I find the accessibility of the music to be much easier than dealing with physical media. The contenders are MUSE Erato II player (MUSE's last top player before Kevin went on to play with HRT) against a 2012 mini with the full works by Mojo Audio using Pure Music (with upsampling to 24/88, memory play and less-is-more) into the Metrum HEX DAC. I have no interest in convincing others what to like in their systems but, in my system, the computer source sounds better and will likely remain my primary source. |
Joe ,
I can appreciate you're happy with computer audio and that's fine. I guess you take this issue more seriously than I. For me they don't sound better and thus I felt no need to to take it further. You chose that direction and that's good for you. I see no point in turning this into some battle, it isn't that important. I'm forced to work with computers all day at work and feel comfortable with them. Just don't want them in my audio system at home, for those who do, enjoy.
Charles, |
09-03-14: Mitch4t
.
Computer audio for me is kind of like exercising. I know it's good for me, I know if I keep at it that it will give positive results. I know that in the beginning it could be a little uncomfortable, but if I want long term results, I need to fight through the initial discomfort.
The real key for me is that I just have to get started...snd stick with it. and ask for help when necessary. |
.
Computer audio for me is kind of like exercising. I know it's good for me, I know if I keep at it that it will give positive results. I know that in the beginning it could be a little uncomfortable, but if I want long term results, I need to fight through the initial discomfort.
The real key for me is that I just have to get started...snd stick with it.
. |
09-03-14: Charles1dad
Grannyring's decision to return to a CD player is a move I'm sure he'd not consider "half empty". He seems happier than ever since ditching the computer. Really though, this 1/2 full,1/2 empty applies to neither format. There's a ton of music available with both and we will choose what fits us best.My CD jazz collection just keeps expanding with beautiful recordings I keep discovering. Good luck and happy listening to all regardless of your preferred path.
Charles, I'm trying to make a general point and has nothing to do with Grannying or cd vs music server. One can use failures for excuses in not trying or successful results for inspiration. Basically the old Nike slogan, Just Do It! Just tired of people making excuses not trying computer audio because Joe Blow had problems. How about the success stories? |
News flash.....Every recording studio in the world has decided to get rid of their computer based system. They don't know what they are going to use but they say that after listening to a cd player they realize how bad their computer based recording systems are. Just a bit of humor to stress a point. |
09-03-14: Phusis
Joecasey --
If I completely misread you reply, I'm sorry. Just forget my first one to you if I did.. This more recent dialogue is an half empty affair thanks to Joe-audio-jihadist-Casey. I am now thoroughly annoyed.... |
09-03-14: Phusis
Joecasey --
If I completely misread you reply, I'm sorry. Just forget my first one to you if I did.. This more recent dialogue is an half empty affair thanks to Joe audio jihadist Casey. |
Charles1dad --
Indeed, thanks - once I got around to re-read it, I suspected he was supportive of my views.
Joecasey --
My apologies... |
Phusis,
I believe Joecasey is supporting your perspective. |
Grannyring's decision to return to a CD player is a move I'm sure he'd not consider "half empty". He seems happier than ever since ditching the computer. Really though, this 1/2 full,1/2 empty applies to neither format. There's a ton of music available with both and we will choose what fits us best.My CD jazz collection just keeps expanding with beautiful recordings I keep discovering. Good luck and happy listening to all regardless of your preferred path.
Charles, |
Joecasey --
If I completely misread you reply, I'm sorry. Just forget my first one to you if I did.. |
Joecasey -- It's a personal decision to live life half full or half empty. If half empty, you are missing out on lots of good stuff. There will always be failures with the simplest task. What exactly are you implying here, and how does that relate to the above? I simply stated that I agree with Raymonda on this subject (a particular area in which he and I seem to be in the minority) - namely, that computer audio is rather a blessing than a bust - and inquired on the nature of what Charles1dad found to be a "hassle." It seems to me you're bitter; it must be sad living life "half empty" - mine is certainly joyous as in "half full to the brim." |
That is to say: I definately concur with poster Raymonda here as his impresssions and views reflect my own as well. But indeed, to each his own. It's a personal decision to live life half full or half empty. If half empty, you are missing out on lots of good stuff. There will always be failures with the simplest task. |
