Its Mivera Audio for those interested: http://www.miveraaudio.com/
Is computer audio a bust?
In recent months, I have had several audio acquaintances return to CDPs claiming improved SQ versus their highly optimized computer transports (SS drives, external power supplies, etc, etc).
I wanted to poll people on their experiences with computer "transports." What variables have had the most impact on sonics? If you bailed on computers, why?
I personally have always believed that the transport, whether its a plastic disc spinner or computer, is as or more important than the dac itself and thus considerable thought and energy is required.
I wanted to poll people on their experiences with computer "transports." What variables have had the most impact on sonics? If you bailed on computers, why?
I personally have always believed that the transport, whether its a plastic disc spinner or computer, is as or more important than the dac itself and thus considerable thought and energy is required.
411 responses Add your response
I think AOIP (audio over ethernet) is the biggie here. USB is simply terrible for audio period! I have found at my cost it is the big bottleneck to PC audio. Look at a RedNet 3 and feed it from a decent optimised PC or Mac and you are done. Beats any CDP for sure.I believe that is by and large true. However, much of the USB receiver implementation in most dacs is poor. Proper galvanic isolation, separate power supplies, and even a batboy USB cable goes a long way. Sonny Anderson at Phison has achieve this by and large: http://www.phisonaudio.dk/home/ A step beyond Vitus, Merging Technologies, etc IMO. A well designed dac should theoretically be impervious to input issues when properly engineered. |
I held off upgrading my computer audio til something made it worthwhile. It has. I stream my own flac files from a NAS, but find myself listening to thousands of flac files from Tidal now. NAS or Tidal wireless to Ethernet switch, optical isolators, AQ Ethernet cable to Sonore Microrendu with ROON core on sonic orbiter. To Shiit Yggy DAC to Cary SLP-05 preamp to BAT Rex II Amp to Dali Helicon 400 MKII speakers. I compare this with my vinyl from Music Hall MMF 9.3 TT. The streaming files are REALLY close to the vinyl.Well good for. Sounds like a page out of the Minerva playbook which was well documented on WhatsBestForum. I now use a custom Intel NUC built by Minerva Audio out of Canada which is a competitor of Sonore. Beautifully fabricated with a top notch switching made by a Japanese medical instrument company. I run Roon off of my iMac along with HQplayer with DSD 256 up sampling to an ethernet switch, optical isolation, etc. Sounds very good. CD spinners are a thing of the past unless you are a geriatric technophobe. |
I held off upgrading my computer audio til something made it worthwhile. It has. I stream my own flac files from a NAS, but find myself listening to thousands of flac files from Tidal now. NAS or Tidal wireless to Ethernet switch, optical isolators, AQ Ethernet cable to Sonore Microrendu with ROON core on sonic orbiter. To Shiit Yggy DAC to Cary SLP-05 preamp to BAT Rex II Amp to Dali Helicon 400 MKII speakers. I compare this with my vinyl from Music Hall MMF 9.3 TT. The streaming files are REALLY close to the vinyl. |
A dedicated server and Roon should be enough to cure most people of the desire to go back to CDs. Ever since I started streaming wirelessly back in the early 2000s (using iTunes as interface), the thought of going back to plastic spinners has never entered my mind. Roon is iTunes 2.0. Just incredible. |
You can't solve the challenges of computer audio focusing on 1 problem... especially because you may be focusing on the symptom and not the problem 1. Power supply stability and freedom from electronic noise interference from source through DAC solution is essential... for all the analog people, this is the same criteria as selecting a well isolating turntable to put your tonearm on 2. Ability of the read solution to capture and output digital to the hardware I/O without altering the source data or timing. This is where CD players have a much harder time with the physics than a computer... they read a reflective moving optical disc vs a computer reading the data as magnetic data off HD or direct data access off SSD memory. Try a CD edge treatment and you will realize how finicky an optical disc playback solution is. 3. Hardware output the digital signal to the DAC; this is where most of the pain occurs for computer audio and where an expensive CD player can beat up on computer audio. USB as an audiophile solution sucks... it has no inherent timing capabilities. Asynch USB is like a post manufacturing wire fix on the main board... an admission of defeat by trying to dictate/fix timing at the receiver end vs getting it right at the sender. This is probably the single most important area of a computer solution to focus on in terms of system development and proprietary solutions. 4. The DAC... lets face it, many aren't enjoyable because they don't resolve complex passages (anyone catch the words of that chorus singing sotto voce behind the orchestra...). The technology is finally catching on that its not measured by its ability to reproduce the loudest instrument without error (easy), its the ability to reproduce the many softer backup instruments playing at same time without error (harder). |
I've started running plex app player on my laptop with usb connection to mhdt dac in my main setup. Results are really impressive and exceeded my expectations for an older usb dac. I've been running squeezebox touch to same dac and system for many years. You really never know for sure with this stuff until you try. |
Here is something to consider: http://http//www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19221-Streamer-to-kill-the-big-boys-for-under-250 |
Plex has made a lot of progress in the last year. I plan to do a comprehensive review soon. Plex is a no brainer for Audiophiles looking to cautiously get into digital streaming for both audio and AV. Sound quality is top notch, runs on most any common computer phone tablet and other streaming devices, nice GUI, very full featured and one can start for free or next to nothing. I still have my Squeeze devices but Plex is slowly taking over in my house. |
The same way you know what other audio components might sound good, by doing homework, auditioning and comparing the options. I play FLAc files via 2 different Squeezebox touch units that I played .WAV prior. I also play them via PLEX application on Amazon fire box using toslink out to DAC. I am very happy with the results with both. |
Mapman, so who or what does it right and why? All I know is that alway WAV files sound different and better than FLAC files. I will soon have a dac with two computers. One will only do music and the other will do everything else. And there will be precision clocks for both and no opamps or switching power supplies. |
Tbg, agree the processing is different and may or may not be done well. Should not be a problem if done properly. Any modern computer with good software should be up to the task but that does not guarantee it is done correctly with best possible sound in mind. FWIW software processing of uncompressed files can vary and be done well or not also so format alone assures nothing. |
Mapman, yes the difference is the latency of the computer unwrapping the Flacs. The sound is different than uncompressed Wav files. All of my newer files are stored in DSD and all are replayed in double DSD. I also have some music recorded in double DSD. My best sounding digital is Essence of Music SACD done into DSD-big but beautiful. |
Dont feel bad; I rippedhalf my library in compressed flac before I learned that uncompressed flac sounds better. All moot now with tidal. Computer audio is not a bust with access to all this new music. We have all ventured into PC Audio via different paths. Streaming, PC/MAC servers, music servers... hopefully, all have the proper platform to take advantage of these new music services when they come out and can just listen to them in their native format, rather than reinventing the wheel when something new comes out. I think Tidal just the beginning. |
This is depressing. I ripped about 60 of my CDs and more importantly have purchased and downloaded 30 odd high res albums all in FLAC format based on advice from HDTracks. I will experiment with my current computer set up between files ripped in FLAC and WAV, but I want to future and upgrade proof my source material to equipment upgrades. Garbage in... Aargh! |
10-23-14: AudioengrI have to agree 100%. there is a big difference in the Uncompressed formats(.wav) vs even lossless formats. I know first hand. I had purchased and still use JRivermedia. Initially it (JRiver) tried to rip all of my Cds in .ape format,which i changed to .wav I started with Windows XP. I had ripped 40 cds or so when i decided that in order to have media center remote control functionality, i needed Windows 7. I installed Windows 7 and started ripping again. I started listening and everything sounded a little bright and harsh. I did not realize that JRiver defaulted back to ripping in .ape format again.I quickly changed it back to .wav and deleted the files ripped in .ape I COULD hear a difference. The .wav was much smoother. Now you will get people who will tell you that you should not hear a difference, becasue it is bit perfect(.ape vs .wav).Maybe it is in the compression and decompression that causes it . I do not know, but what i do know is that there IS a difference in sound, in my setup. I think if you cannot hear a difference , then your system is not up to snuff. For example,I used to use an Emotiva LPA-1 amp.I had tried several different Coaxial and optical cables from my Fidelity V-Link2 to McCormack DAC-1.I could not hear any differences. I recently bough a McIntosh MC2205. I also tried some different digital cables. NOW, I COULD hear differences. So my equipment was not up to snuff,IMO,proir to the MC2205 |
For me it took getting the synergies correct ... right digital cables, DAC and software to achieve what I thought is actually better sound with some HiRes recording than the CD. Running MacBook Pro with Pure Music 2, AudioQuest Diamond USB going into Bryston BUC-1 feeding a Levinson No360s by way of Shunyata Anaconda digital AES/EBU. I still listen to CD's and in my system that is with a Levinson No37 transport also connected to the DAC by Anaconda AES/EBU. Both work well for me however if I can find the 96/24 download I usually buy it because often I prefer that. I typically prefer the sound of the CD on the No37 to just a straight rip of the CD. |
11-08-14: Mcondon So are ethernet streamers a bust too? |
10-28-14: Tbg No need to torture yourself by returning to it then...:) "Computers" are not the future. They are an evolutionary stepping stone until audiophile manufacturers catch up. Steve is ahead of the game due to his background. Many others have a mere rudimentary knowledge like may of us endusers who learn as they go. |
"You are saying that jitter is important. That jitter can also result from cable induced errors. That re-clocking at the DAC does not necessarily correct for all/any errors related to jitter that could occur during delivery of the raw digital signal through a cable." All correct. "Does it follow that some digital cables are better at delivering digital signals free of or with less added jitter?" Absolutely. "in theory or in measurement, can a digital signal be corrupted in a cable, say due to exposure to strong EMF, to the point where 1s and 0s are actually deleted or unreadable at the DAC. I.E. outright data loss?"" Very unlikely. The EMI would have to be kilowatts of power, like a radar antenna. Corruption of data on a USB or S/PDIF cable is not usual and quite difficult. The cable must be extremely long and have poor impedance match to have significant error rate. Signal integrity ala "eye-pattern" however can easily be affected by connectors, cable construction, impedance etc.. Also, ground loop noise can impact both USB and S/PDIF causing jitter and even errors if it is bad enough. These are currents running in the ground of the cable that should not be there. IF high enough, they will appear on the signal(s) and cause problems at the receiver. This is why I developed the "Short-Block" USB cable filter, which reduces common-mode ground-loop noise on the cable. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I asked this question in another thread and didn't get an answer, so am trying here, since the conversation has touched on cable use. "... Let me make sure I am tracking with you. You are saying that jitter is important. That jitter can also result from cable induced errors. That re-clocking at the DAC does not necessarily correct for all/any errors related to jitter that could occur during delivery of the raw digital signal through a cable. Does it follow that some digital cables are better at delivering digital signals free of or with less added jitter? On a related note, in theory or in measurement, can a digital signal be corrupted in a cable, say due to exposure to strong EMF, to the point where 1s and 0s are actually deleted or unreadable at the DAC. I.E. outright data loss?" Your thoughts appreciated, even if you think this is a non-issue. kn |
Agear -- Yet another BADA advert....:) That's a matter to be taken up with the OP's author alone - it's certainly not my agenda. And even if it is a "BADA advert" it's of no consequence to what the comparison is trying to tell in general terms (more on that later). Indeed I did (and still do) consider pointing out to the OP (to linked article) that the prevalent, and more or less sole focus on the USB to S/PDIF converter as a "transport" is partially misleading, since the harddrive/server appears to be the more "logical" and relevant mention as such. An equally integral part, at least :) Needs to blind a bunch of philes at an audio society meeting and do the same test. It would not be as black and white as one reviewer making pronouncements from the mountaintop.... Actually this is one area I'd feel no qualms about labeling as black and white. To be perhaps somewhat provocative about it: the prevalence (i.e.: enertia?) to ackowledge a (more or less) visibly spinning object as what's qualitatively desirable bleeds, in this case, into struggling to find the few cases where astronomically priced CD-transports would turn out victorious, yet still end up falling short compared to their computer-based alternatives - with the latter costing significantly less, that is. This, from what I can tell, is not about the frequency of CD-transport devotees tipping the boat, so to speak, and wanting to find the "evidence" for it, but instead bears the scent of a stubborn hunt for the instance where a group of individuals unanimously deems a CD-transport the winner over a computer ditto. No doubt a group, or groups of people have done so already, but... to be provocative about it :) |
Tag, I am with you. While I follow this thread with amusement, it's value, not so much. I am a lover of all that is vinyl(records). Digital always turned me off. Enter the computer. Voila! Now I am in love with digital as well. Quality of sound. Convents. Ease of usage. You name it. Computer not just the future but the best digital was, is or will be. |
Agear - I have an "about AE" page that describes my system and has a photo. It is not up to date though, since I now have custom 805A SE monoblocks. Soon to get Vapor Audio Nimbus speakers too. The best way to play files is probably wired Ethernet. I am currently designing a network renderer for this purpose. My products, including the Overdrive SE can be upgraded to change out the USB interface for this network renderer, called the "Interchange". Storing files depends on the playback. Generally the best way is to have them local to the computer, not NAS, and not USB if you are using USB interface. If you use network interface, then USB or firewire access to the drives is fine. IF you use USB, then Firewire to the drives is best IME. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
10-27-14: Audioengr You need a formal system page then. Since the room is 80% of the equation, what have you done in that regard. Also, what is the best way to store and then stream files to ones dac? Ethernet? |
Hi Guido, EI do not believe you would not add a "synchro mesh" between a $30,000 CEC transport and a SOTA dac. Again, if you look at other manufacturers (Ralph comes to mind), they are here to teach and educate us. Not to tell us all our issues will be solved if we buy their products. That is solely my issue. |
"State-of-the-art CD transports vs USB/SPDIF converter shootout:" http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/state-art-cd-transports-vs-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converter-shootout-15193/ The results of above comprehensive comparison perfectly reflect my own impressions as well, albeit via different equipment and interface (but that'd only underline the generality of the matter at hand). Notice the difference in price between the CD-transports and USB to S/PDIF converter + server used.. |
Thank you Kevinkwann, unfortunately your comment was not constructive. I suggest avoidance of ad hominem. Hi Cerrot, I can see that potential of both bitwise defects as well as jitter introducing a variety of distortions.... It probably depends on the magnitude and distribution patterns of each. Is there evidence that bitwise imperfections are actually causing audible distortions in current builds of Empirical products? ... As I have not experienced Empirical in my own system, I have not formed n opinion on the subject. Saluti, Guido |
