Yeah it may be better than digital. But come on. 3K+ for a cartridge. Cleaning machines. Preamps. VTA adjustments. noisy records. expensive software. By the time you get it all set up you are ready to just turn on the tv and watch Sportscenter. Is there any alternative?
I dont know about you but I just love vinyl vs digital threads, they are even filosophical... If you dont like vinyl you dont like music, or you are not a true music lover??...Let me tell you guys most of my hardcore music-lover friends have crappy systems: one friend is a music expert and music specialized journalist, he has interviewed personally any rockstar you can think off and even introduced me to Diana Krall, he also works at a big recording company and is in charge of the jazz section, last time I checked he has a Sony combo. Another friend collects music on his I-pod, he does have a pair of DJ turntables hooked to a digital converter and mini-monitors, In the 80s he used to sell recorded tapes to our common friends, these tapes came with a special warranty: If the girl you have a date with doesnt melt with the tape and kisses you, you get your money back! He was never asked to return a cent! So lets back off music lovers with crappy systems, sometimes they enjoy music more than us audiophiles who are sometimes more into toys and detail hunting than music itself! Now is vinyl worth it? I find myself listening to only a small amount of LPs that really sound good, I go check my smallish (in the 400s) collection and really have a hard time finding an LP to play, I go to used record stores and I see the LPs I wanted to buy 20 years ago and a bunch of beaten up copies of the ones I got already...that dont sound good. No havent come across any Ella Fitzgerald or any good used jazz LP yet...I guess I will have to start ordering new LPs from the internet! Is it annoying, no it sounds really good and for me it is automatic, setting the LP on my tt and inmediately strech my arm for my D4 brush, clean LP with the left and the right is already holding the arm while the left hand cleans the brush against my shirt the right hand is setting the stylus directly on the LP, I find my hand more precise than the armlift, I can hit a song right on the groove 9 out of 10 times...
RW, comparing the new deal.....downloads....i assume you mean to the little shiney discs.
you need to define the goals. easiest? cheapest? most convienient? collectability? pride of ownership? best performance?
my system is 'download' free for now. i don't have any philosphical problem with downloads......but i have not yet heard one that competes with SOTA digial discs.....let alone vinyl.
i do have XM in the car.....and for long trips it's great.
Nilthepill thats how to live it, when out of town a must for me and the best wife in the world is to search out vinyl. right now i am playing a find from my last trip to Houston. CSNandY four way street. just cleaned and now playing a classic. its the music that counts
Worth it? That is up to the individual-yes? For my own self it is. I am able to enjoy many fine recordings from the vinyl era that are not on cd. Having access to thrift store finds and occasional other sources of clean LP's makes it easy. Sometimes just a good cleaning and the LP is good as new (nearly)
CD are fine. The vinyl system will stay. Room for both.
Too bad the new big format is Download. No liner notes. No cool record jackets. No money in the pocket of the artist.
Comments from wwwrecords and winegasman were rendered true for me last week while I was travelling to Santa Cruz (for spring break). Having neve travelled to this small sea side city we spend few hours just cruising the area. Then we hit the 'hub' of the city, a few blocks of modern looking shops/starbucks etc. Turning back to go to hotel while my SUV's navigation directing us, i swung by a place I knew thru internet (and had ordered for bunch of LPS by mail) called 'Metamusic Records'. I took double take and could not believe my 'fortune' that I am at the place without even knowing I was looking for.
Anyway , put few quarter at the parking meter and got permission from wife and kids to browse for half and hour. I dashed inside the store started from letter 'A'.... Found some hurried selections and talked with clerk really excited, introduced myself, etc. At letter "P" I heard this lifelike acoustic guitar and vocal playing over the stereo. I was floored. I asked the owner what kind of TT set is that. I could not believe what he showed me his system consisted of. A Technics DD TT ($800 tops)- similar to few brand new for sale on selves, an Orofon cartridge ($60-70. Heck my loading resistors cost $100 per pair), a hifi looking amp (did no ask for brand) and vintage (had those tan tartan looking cloth screens) looking book self ( rather big ones) speakers placed not symetrically. I started to 'brag' ( remember I am still tickeled thatt I am in record store I had just unexpectedly discovered) about what TT set up and it costs blah blah and that mine probably does not sound as good as his humble set up. He admitted matter of factly that he has gotten lot of that comments from his patrons, He has heard system costing $20000 plus and his system sounds much better. On the same day earlier I had auditioned the mega bucks Zanden digital combo at a dealer which sounded really really good. But this $2k-$3k combo sounded better!!! BTW I had exceeded my allowed browsing time by 20 minutes at this point ;-)
In fact I am going to call him and get more details on his set up.
Thanks for the kind words Chadzliz, Hey Dan_ed i guess the question will be asked and answered till who knows when, what i do know for me analog is king.
Dan_ed posed the question: How is this thread different that every other vinyl vs. cd thread over the last decade and what new insights have we learned?
Perhaps that the range of choices available to those interested in vinyl as a source have never been wider, or more interesting, and that the price of entry can be reasonable, despite the high cost of true SOTA vinyl playback; that there is a new generation of listener for whom vinyl is intriguing, and that even some old dogs can learn new tricks. (Maybe the last is over-optimistic, but I couldn't resist). For me, playing the system is an event. I hope everyone has that pleasure.
So I have to ask, after several days and so many posts. How is this thread different that every other vinyl vs. cd thread over the last decade and what new insights have we learned?
although it is the best phono stage i have heard; there are many great phono stage's i have not heard. it's not cheap but it's wonderful. IMHO battery power; properly executed, is the way to go for preamps.....i don't believe in battery power for amps.
No its not annoying, yes its worth it. I am guessing that most of the discontent are from the younger generation. When you are used to easy its hard to actually doing something, like what it takes to enjoy vinyl LP playback, cleaning LPs, setting up and keeping your rig in top playing condition, getting up and flipping LPs, thats hard stuff. yea right. I just did a comparing between Led Zeppelin two CD and LP, the CD is not even close, the LP has slam, involvement, intimacy, and is so much more enjoyable. Heck its a blast when traveling seeking out record stores or other means of searching out LPs. Its fun. And sometimes you find a real gem. For my music preference more music is available on LP. That being said music is the most important thing. thats why we are into this hobby. some of the other posts mentioning musical enjoyment from ipods, music servers, ect. is fine and i am all for it. But when it comes time for serious sit down music listening its got to be vinyl playback. JMO
Don't worry TVAD. I have not found any amp I like better than the 401hr. But I will have a lot of fun finding a vinyl front end. Maybe I'll even get a Loricraft record cleaner. By the time the weather turns cold I'll be back in the saddle. "The good Lord willin' and the creek don't rise."
Hey real quick does anyone use battery power supply for Phono Stage? I have a Musical Surroundings Phonomena wich I got at cost, I can also add the DC power supply at cost wich would put both at just over retail for stage alone. I am not a rich man so I try to make the most out of my money, is DC power going to make a big change? If anyone actually uses this exact combo I would be grateful for impressions, thanks
Undertow, the 200 gram Classic Records reissues are very good.....i bought them 4 or 5 years ago when they came out. it was the best i had ever heard LZ.
then came the Box Set with the first 4 LZ albums boxed together with a 45rpm test pressing of 'Stairway'......i bought 3 complete sets just to make sure i had a 'lifetime' supply of 45rpm 'Stairway'.
then last summer i bought the complete LZ Classic 45rpm box set. if you get a chance to listen to it.....it will blow your mind.....and the difference between the 33 and 45 is huge.....sorry to say.
yes; in 1971 i was younger......but for music quality.....these are the 'good ol' days'.
side note; one of the engineers for Led Zepplin II, Chris Huston (his name is on the bottom right side of the inside cover), was the acoustical designer of my room and stayed overnight as a guest in my home during the room project. that evening playing music which he had produced and enginered was one of the most fun listening i have ever done. he had more than a few great stories to tell about recording LZ and others.
Yes I did just upgrade my cartridge, but what of it? I have always had a vinyl rig, starting with a Rega P2 and eventually moving to my SME. But even if I couldn't swing the SME, I would still have a turntable of some sort. In some ways there has never been a better time to get into vinyl - there are lots of very good and not very expensive turntable/arm/cartridge combos that play music very well.
At the end of the day, if you have the software, or want to give a shot "just because" then I think it's a worthwhile endeavor. And you can buy a satisfying vinyl rig for under 2K, if you shop carefully.
Mikelavigne, That is REALLY weird you say that about the zeppelin re-masters, Just the other day I put on Zep II with the 200 gram 33's (Whole lotta love first track)Which I did not try out until about a week ago, and Whoa is what me and a friend were saying as well, its so much more explosive and the drum track especially sounds wide open and un-compressed, and the vocals are just ripping thru like its live, very different than any digital counterpart especially on certain bands..
I have found Zeppelin, Sabbath, Beatles, and many others cannot sound as real on CD as the vinyl versions,, But there are Excellent Digital recordings but mostly of much newer Rock bands.
+++ So you dont think you cant tell Vinyl from Digital, yet you can tell that people with remotes and no turntable are not "true" music lovers?+++
My my, now you are doing research on my old posts? Sad.
I can tell the difference between digital and analogue. With digital I get listener fatigue and normally lose interest in listening after about 10 to 15 minutes. After 30 min I will have earache and would not be able to listen any more.
Listening to analogue I can listen almost indefinitely without any fatigue. While I have some theories why this is, I simply not sure exactly why that is. It is something that a number of other audiophiles experience also.
As for telling people who have remotes and no TT are not true music lovers; well that is a fabrication of you fertile imagination. I think if you read my posts youd know what I did say, including saying that for all things equal I would most certainly choose a preamp with remote.
6 months ago Paul wrote: "I cannot really explain what it is about vinyl and to be honest, I probably wouldnt be able tell the difference in a blind test. What I can say is that over the past three or so years I am spending more time listening than I ever have, so there must be something to it." So you dont think you cant tell Vinyl from Digital, yet you can tell that people with remotes and no turntable are not "true" music lovers?
Thanks Tvad, I was going to respond to Pauly's ignorant point of view but you go there first. My daughter listens almost exclusively to music on her ipod or car radio. While she isn't an audiophile by any stretch, to suggest she isn't a music lover is idiotic. I hear stuff coming from her room and ask who is that? Then I buy it.
+++ To suggest that anyone not willing to commit to analog music reproduction cannot be truly passionate about music is completely without merit.+++
I guess some could read my post and conclude that the intent was as you state above. These would be the same people that necessitated the 'content is hot' warning labels on Starbuck cups.
Hey cut Pauly some slack! He's only got into vinyl this century and he's still in the neophyte "I can't believe how good this sounds" stage. Give him some time and there is a chance that he might evolve to a more tolerant and open minded state of mind. I can only interpret his extreme statements in this post as a sign of his current immaturity. Remember, there was a time when all of us thought we knew everything.
Gregadd, So long as I can still be considered one who loves music, if I had to choose one format it would be vinyl. But I would never have voted nor even participated but for Pauly's voting me and others like me out of the 'music lovers' club because we did not worship analog sufficiently for him.
Ironically though I recently put away my vinyl system (Oracle/Benz/ARC SP10) because the majority of music I wanted to hear was on CD's and not on LP. My LP's were culled down to less than 400 keepables, most of which were kept for 'reference' and nostalgia, and my CD's well over 5000. My interest in new music didn't stop when they stopped recording in analog. Just didn't have room any longer for both systems. The only thing that the two systems had in common was the speakers. And, FWIW, they both sounded pretty fine IMHO.
"Newbee, that isn't the topic of the thread. Superiority of vinyl was accepted but rejected as a medium because of inconvenience."
I have not rejected vinyl. Just wondered if it is worth it. Obviously some think it is, some don't. This isn't little league where eveyone gets to play. Somebody has to be right, somebody wrong. You can buy a ticket to whatever show you like.
+++ So long as we are really only talking about which format can produce the highest quality sound we have nothing to argue about. +++
Newbee, that isn't the topic of the thread. Superiority of vinyl was accepted but rejected as a medium because of inconvenience.
+++ For me, that is all audio is really about, giving us pale but often satisfying sonic images of what a live performance might be like if we could attend. +++
My, that is sad. I don't claim my system can produce an identical reproduction of the real thing, but it sure gets me 'there'. Not pale at all.
+++ Do post about music. The one thing this hobby really needs is an infusion of enthusiasm for music, especially jazz and classical. +++
The best live performances I have attended has been in my own home as an audience of one. And that is not something I care to share.
Chadnliz you are missing my point. For a normal abled person, listening to vinyl has a very small amount of effort over CD clamp LP, dry brush the LP, the queue the arm, lower the arm, walk back to chair. Somebody that will consciously accept lower quality sound to eliminate this very minor effort, is simply not serious about music.
Each person has limits to the amount of time, effort and money they can spend on something they are passionate about. If you have mobility problems and either totally unable to adjust, or have great difficulty at adjusting a non-remote preamp, it makes no sense not having a remote.
For a normal able bodied person, you are not serious about music if you purposefully get an inferior preamp instead of a superior one for no reason other than convenience of a remote. However, if all things are equal, then I'd get the one with remote without question.
I normally build my own gear. A remote attenuator cost about $500. I can buy better sounding manual stepped attenuator for $100. Which do I buy? $400 can buy some very nice capacitors. Hence, no remotes near my system ... The small inconvenience of the manual unit is worth the better sound.
Paul, So long as we are really only talking about which format can produce the highest quality sound we have nothing to argue about.
I just snagged some tickets to hear MTT do M7 in SF - Mahlerphiles eat your heart out!. To get ready I'm going to have to put his previous recording on one of my CDP's. If I was going to hear a performance done by Levine, I'd have to get out my LP of his performance. For me, that is all audio is really about, giving us pale but often satisfying sonic images of what a live performance might be like if we could attend.
Do post about music. The one thing this hobby really needs is an infusion of enthusiasm for music, especially jazz and classical. It won't get more popular if we just talk about audio.
Newbee, there is a price of admission, but it is more than just money.
Anybody that really likes music would want to hear it reproduced in the most accurate and natural way possible. Setting up a system to do that invariably takes time, effort and money. Anybody that feels that it is not worthwhile spending time, money and effort in this endeavor is not really serious about music.
All things equal, a CD fronted system cannot match an analogue system. Never has, never will; for all but the very lowest budget.
My apologies for not posting on the music forum. I wasn't aware it was mandatory ...
What always gets me is the sheer explosiveness of the kickdrum at my local club, even when the band is just warming up. I don't know of any system that recreates this effectively- it is not just a question of 'loud,' or 'dynamic' or 'deep' but all of them, and more.
The vast majority of what is commercially available has been compressed in the recording, mixing and mastering process(especially drums!) - often little more than 10 db of dynamic range is left. So unless you have an unusally dynamic recording you may never hear that live kick drum sound. I would add that professional audio equipment is specifically designed to faithfully handle the extreme dynamic range and loud levels of real instruments (mostly sound reinforcement gear at concerts and studio main farfield monitors - but believe me, properly set up, these can sound quite realistic, even on a kick drum.)
Paul my post was delayed so by the time it got posted you had talked about your previous statement. But then you go and do it again, if a music lover who is going on 70 years old would like a remote so his ageing body does not have to get up to make small adjustments he isnt a true music lover????? I for example am disabled but I dont have a tube pre with remote, but if I could afford one I would get one as it would help me. Sorry I guess I am not a music lover.
Pauly, I must recant. I just read your response to Shadrone wherein you admit to knowing audiophiles who are musicophiles as well as digitalphiles. Apparently not vinylphiles. Good for you. Nice to know that some digitalphiles can love music. Now, what I need to know is how much money and effort a digitalphile must spend to become a music lover. That seems to be the price of admission. :-) Ergo, the rich can enjoy music and sound, the poor can enjoy music only thru vinyl, even cheap vinyl systems. Right? :-)
Pauly, ROTFLMAO. You love music so much. You must because of all of your proclaimations. But, interestingly you have never posted a thread or responded to anyone who asked a question about music. Do you consider all posts in the music forum beneath you. Or do you just talk about music in the context of your perferred method of reproducing recordings. You must have something to share about music as valuable as that which you share about audio.
Credit must be given where due. You are consistent. No weak kneed recantations here!
Doug, I agree with you totally about Herbert V. But, my point was that he loved digital and he unquestionably loved music. This must have been an 'exception' to Pauly's proclamation. I'm sure there are many others.
Personally speaking I didn't even care for HVK's music all that much and his recordings of it were even less to brag about, much less. On vinyl or later on digital! So much for equipment freaks, musicians or not. :-)
But I love Bernstein, warts and all. His enthusiasm makes up for a lot of excesses. At least he was never bland.
But forgive me for not joining in the analog v digital argument, its old, stale, and unresolvable. But, IMHO, the differences in formats should not give rise to the arrogant denegration of those who don't share either formats advocates opinions, such as that espoused by Pauly.
Yes I do go to concerts. Not the opera. I am more into jazz. If invited to opera I would go. After thirty years of audio with declinig income, failing eyesight and clumsy fingers I wonder if it is worht it. It appears it is to most of you guys.
Just a thought. After I found that acoustic polarity ("normal" vs "inverted) made a difference in my system, the next thing I discovered was that it made the MOST difference with DG vinyl, CDs, and R-R tape. No idea why. But before giving up on DG, you might try switching the speaker cables (both of them) and see if you can detect a positive difference. Dave
This enterprise (mixing, recording, listening to sound) is entirely subjective. That's why these questions always have 2 camps (at least). Like www.records (and others in the thread) it's that "$3k" comment that prompts me to jump in.
It's Tuesday afternoon, 4/10/2007, just after 5pm on the East Coast, and I'm home from work about an hour. For the first 45 minutes I was home alone and after a tough day I poured a glass (then a second) of Salice Salentino, then cranked a $1 copy of Southside Johnny's debut album, I Don't Want to Go Home, loud as I could stand it (she can't take much more power, Captain). As the needle of my $150 EDR.9 cart (thanks Raul!) moved through the glorious grooves of this long-time favorite, sending the signal through my $79 TC-760LC phono stage, by way of my $250 1970's Yamaha YP-D8, into my Yamaha RX-V2400 HT receiver (sorry proper audiophiles) and out of my $800 used GMA C-1s I was transported. Back to the days (25+ years ago of my youth), when this LP played while nubile young college friends danced with the powerful innocence and glory of their young years; back to the older bluesmen whose suffering inspired young white artists like Southside to imitate them in awe and deep respect; back to those bars and clubs where I'd watch these guys play. Can CD transport me there too? Sure. Good music transports me.
The wife and kids came home; there's homework to do. Slipped Bill Evans' You Must Believe in Spring under the needle, here in NH where there's still a solid coat of snow in my yard, and let Evans' great combo sooth us all. My daughter said, Dad, no music I have to concentrate. I said, don't worry, this one has no words. By the end of side one, everyone's calmed down. Evans' magic has worked again. can CDs do this. Sure. Good music transports me.
Whatever you do, don't let the snobs intimidate you. Whatever your budget, there's a vinyl rig that can produce pleasing sound. There's so much good music on vinyl. Each of my $1 LPs this afternoon worked their magic.
Now, alas, it's time to get up and put in my fair share of home work. This hour of good music has been a great blessing. I hope you, too, can just relax and enjoy the music. (Thanks Raul!)
Chadnliz As I mentioned to Shadorne, I expressed myself incorrectly. I know a couple of 'hard core' audiophile/music lovers that use CD fronted systems.
However, their systems are not set up for convenience, nor are they tight fisted when spending money. Many have no remote for volume and, like me, need to walk across the room to adjust volume. Many of them have spent more on their systems than they earn in a year.
I think people who are happy to sacrifice sound in order to have a little more convenience are not serious about music.
I don't suggest your father is not serious about music. Purchasing 7000 CD he must be very serious.
Herbert Von Karajan... was very involved with the recording process as well as conducting his performances -
Yeah, so was Leonard Bernstein. That certainly gave us some sonic gems!
If HvK used the sonics of his own DGG vinyl releases as a benchmark, it's no wonder he fell in love with digital. What a pity his magnificent Beethoven performances were all released on second rate Dodgy Grungaphone vinyl.
I love HvK's performances, but his "insights" into the quality of different recording/playback media must be counted as worthless. His own records were unfailingly mediocre.
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