I dunno what inexpensive means in this group. Too vague a term.
Price range, please?
Inexpensive Good Vintage Turntables?
I'm considering buying a turntable again. I've been without one for going on 10 years. This time around, could you recommend some really good inexpensive models (prefer belt but DD OK, too). And carts (preferably modern) that will work with them? And who are good online sellers of restored models? I know very little about vintage turntables ...
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@clearthinker There are Technologies that have progressed and are in use today, due to their usage being proven to be fit for purpose. That have been cutting edge in providing non metal solutions for the methods employed to produce a mechanical device in all sectors of industry. Aviation and Performance Vehicles are using Wood Products produced using very accurate and reliable methods for their construction, these wood products can be machined to have the tightest of tolerances, no different to a metal and will remain stable to perform as per their designed for function in all environments met. The same Industries as above, are also using Composites and Thermoplastics, of which the merits for their usage is very well versed and adopted by numerous industries, each are known for their capability to be used in place of a metal. The use of such materials are much more planet friendly as their production is not as energy absorbing as metals and the methods used to form shapes from the non metal materials, is requiring much less energy when moulding or machining. Used as a Material Globally, the improvement in the environmental impact on the Planet, when selecting non metal materials is encouraged that is a good thing for all. There are alternatives to the above, and methods can be adopted that will be the better for all. All the above does not offer the same energy preservation as choosing to buy a already produced TT from a Vintage era, over a modern design. Any methods where a obsolete Design/Model is given a resurrection and a second life gets my vote over any other methods used to acquire a device. If the chosen model is seen to be a little needy in some areas, and the wish is to get the device back up to a Top Level of performance, then why not see if a Modern Method for using materials will be fitting for ones needs. I am slowly going through the process of swapping out worn sacrificial Bearing Housing Parts for ones produced from Thermoplastics and other non metal materials.
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"Aviation and Performance Vehicles are using Wood Products produced using very accurate and reliable methods for their construction, these wood products can be machined to have the tightest of tolerances, no different to a metal and will remain stable to perform as per their designed for function in all environments met." All woods move over time, however intensively or carefully they are prepared. This makes wood unsuitable for critical engineering applications where minimum tolerances are critical. To utilise it in turntables is just fashion bling, not good engineering design. If you want to fly in a wooden plane that is your privilege but I doubt you will find one - they went out 100 years ago, in the 1920s, save for the Mosquito fighter/bomber plane that the UK created in WW2 because of shortage of metals. My mother's first husband died in one.. Neither do I know of any wooden performance vehicles, unless you count the Morgan car, a design also perfected nearly 100 years ago. "The use of such materials are much more planet friendly as their production is not as energy absorbing as metals..." You must be a scientist as, like most of the others, you have not evaluated the causes of environmental damage correctly. By far the most costly elements of product production and use are the creation and disposal of the product. So to retain an already extant product in use for a longer period and not replace it with a new one, however environmentally friendly its producer claims it to be, will always trump the production of a new item. When will scientists understand this very simple fact? Your post does belatedly acknowledge this principle in your para 8, which partially contradicts your para 4. An example of this that really irks me is the battery car. The battery lasts for 8 years, maybe 10, and when it fails to hold its charge the car is scrapped (along with the battery) because producers have elected to integrate the battery in the structure of the car, rather than make it removeable/replaceable as I advocated nearly 10 years ago. In the result twice as many cars have to be constructed and scrapped compared with the ICE car that typically remains in use for more than 20 years. Duurrrrrr. |
Great thread! I have several vintage tables, both belt-drive and DD variety. Three Thorens (TD-160, 160 Super, TD-320), a JVC QL-5, and a Denon DP-72L. My 'modern' table is a Music Hall MMF-5SE with Goldring 1042 purchased in the early 2000s. I just made a minor upgrade on the interconnects to the MMF-5 that paid off big time. CD players have improved (along with DACs) over the years, but they still can't match vinyl for sound that just seems 'right', for lack of a better, more nuanced term. But I am not a Luddite....I own and use 8 or 9 CD players |
Get this classic AR turntable off of EBay for $600. |
@clearthinker to retain an already extant product in use for a longer period and not replace it with a new one, however environmentally friendly its producer claims it to be, will always trump the production of a new item. The methods you use are very much in place and maintained within my system. Racks Built using Repurposed Wood and Salvaged Granite Stone cut into the correct dimensions. The same Granite was used to produce a Idler Drive Plinth approx’ 20+ years past. Wall Racks produced from a Salvaged Material that was a Surplus Gallows Type Brackets, the used Shelf Material that has been a Salvaged Item that is a extremely highly compressed material, it is actually the most compressed form of the used material. The Power Amp’s are seated on a Construction of a Salvaged Sub Floor Material used in Laboratories to assist with Vibration Management and rested on this Structure is a 200Kg repurposed Engineers Granite Slab. Most of my equipment is a, 'one off', Bespoke Built Device, either built from scratch or from a Donor Model of which the youngest donor used to date, is from a product produced from the 2000 era. The last 'usually used' concept of of purchasing an item I have bought, is a used sale item CDT. The DAC I use with this is a Prototype from a EE, belonging to an earlier design of theirs, I had some of their latest designs added to the device, as there were New Parts produced using modern manufacturing approaches that were offering improvements over the earlier ones used in the design. Apart from Two Types of Tubes, all other Tubes in use are Vintage, ranging from early 1960’s Production with the youngest Vintage being 845’s produced from the 1980’s. I know through experiences that a Item produced in another era, can excel as a device when a use of a modern produced material is added to it, or when a design intent has a modern approach as part of the fundamental for the rethink of the devices function. I have no desire to condemn any Technology from any era, even though some of the sins of the designs are glowing clearly in the spotlight when assessed, I know these supplied devices have been able to supply numerous hours of enjoyment for their users, I will not poo poo on that, with unnecessary commentary . In general when modern Technologies are adopted by Industries as a global usage, there are benefits for all flora / fauna that are impacted on by the improvements of the industrial practices are creating, the only shortcoming is the speed at which these approaches are being adopted. In the normal World with the usual occurrences taking place, Industry is here to stay, any other thoughts about its future is fantastical. It is better that the practices being adopted, even though slowly are seen to be beneficial other than detrimental. I have very little concerns about using wood, I use densified woods produced by a few Brands known for the quality of their products. I have peace of mind where maintaining stability and dependability is the requirement for the use of a wood. These materials will not turn into anything other than what I intended for them in my life time and very likely a few other life times as well, if the devices using my selection of densified wood are around for the that long. |
No to a vintage LP12. Even it's most ardent admirers often like to say how much it's improved in the last 20 years, and how the opinions of previous owners count for little.
Besides, why subject yourself to sleepless nights fretting over possible 'upgrades', of which there are innumerable?
If it was me I would personally go for an AR deck if I wanted a vintage turntable. And in fact that's exactly what I did when I wanted one.
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@cd318 I was ideologically opposed to the LP12. (UK press...) then I heard one that had the full full Funk Firm treatment, and another by Vinyl Passion. On both occasions it just simply sounded great - very entertaining. |
new decks - a lot of Emperors New Clothes IMHO. Harry Weisfeld of VPI once said in an interview to produce a Technics SP10 would require £30k - for tooling - the motor etc. In TT design the pinnacle of high tech relative to market usage/penatration was the 70's. Magnetic strips for speed control on platters can only be done by companies with real manufacturing economies of scale. Most belt drives are far more low tech than DD's of the 70's. Most of the new tech is a regurgitation of previous designs and technology.
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teoaudio hit the nail on the head---many, many options. Thorens, Linn both great--when i got back into vinyl i went with a Lenco as my old TT was a Garrard and i wanted an idler arm design--now that i have the Lenco i think their design is better than Garrard but the latter tend to run expensive on used market--you can get a Lenco 75 cheap and those Swiss are great mechanical engineers---someone mentioned building your own plinth and that could be fun also--Lenco heaven has detailed instructions and is a wonderful website. |
new decks - a lot of Emperors New Clothes IMHO. Harry Weisfeld of VPI once said in an interview to produce a Technics SP10 would require £30k - for tooling - the motor etc. In TT design the pinnacle of high tech relative to market usage/penatration was the 70’s. Magnetic strips for speed control on platters can only be done by companies with real manufacturing economies of scale. Most belt drives are far more low tech than DD’s of the 70’s.
Kind of puts it into perspective doesn’t it? The Technics SP10 is a standard for the ages. It was an almost criminal dereliction of duty that the hi-fi rags that I grew up with somehow forgot to mention its existence amidst all those endless column inches devoted to the Dual CS505, Rega 3, Roksan Xerxes, and especially the notorious cult like worship of the Linn LP12 back in the day. Even today, many so called reviewers seem to forget about outstanding turntables from yesteryear. I guess it’s understandable when you’re solely pushing copy in advertising/PR. As they say, buyer beware.
As I mentioned earlier I bought an AR XB deck mainly for the charm and it’s history. Charm can be a big part of any buying decision, and as long as you are aware of that, there’s little wrong with that. Recently I’ve taken a liking to the skeletal Rega 8/10 decks for a similar reason.
However, if I was buying for performance first I’d focus mainly on a Technics. |
There's one on New Orleans craigslist. Not mine and no relation.
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@cd318 the cult - superb way of putting it. I think the Roksan and Alvin Golds review of it then the Pink Triangle taught us there was another way. Hi Fi World were the magazine to open our eyes to what we missed out on with its classic section. It’s where I discovered the Martin Bastin Garrard 401 and all the Japanese DD’s. As I’ve said I have heard good LP12 but it’s not the only way to skin a cat. Experience and age has taught me that anyone claiming there’s is the best is an imbecile - unless u have a Rockport Sirius… I will shout out that I bought a Townshend Elite Rock 2 for only 400ukp with arm and cart about 8 years ago. They’ve shot up in the used market but are simply sensational |
My first good turntable was an AR XA. It had a good suspended subchassis design (the first in history), a good machined platter, but a terrible tonearm (the later XB just had a different base, and an arm cuing control). I replaced the table with a Thorens TD-125 Mk.2, which had an almost identical suspended subchassis design, but unfortunately also an overly-complicated electronic motor controller, which gave me nothing but trouble. I got rid of it and got the cheaper TD-150, which was very similar to the AR but with a much better arm. In the 1980's AR re-introduced their table (basically the same as the XA in design, renamed the ES-1) fitted with a Jelco-sourced arm if so desired (it was offered without as well). It's a fine budget table, but for the price it brings on the used market you can get a VPI HW-19 Mk.2 or 3, imo a better choice. |
"I think the Roksan and Alvin Golds review of it then the Pink Triangle taught us there was another way. Hi Fi World were the magazine to open our eyes to what we missed out on with its classic section."
I used to read Hi-World but not regularly and must have missed that review by the late Alvin Gold. I do recall him having a memorably succinct writing style though. As for the Pink Triangle, wasn't that surely one of the most unfortunate victims of the power of journalism? Apparently one review which mentioned speed issues more or less put paid to what might have been the best belt drive turntable of its generation. |
Clearthinker, You wrote, "You must be a scientist as, like most of the others, you have not evaluated the causes of environmental damage correctly. By far the most costly elements of product production and use are the creation and disposal of the product. So to retain an already extant product in use for a longer period and not replace it with a new one, however environmentally friendly its producer claims it to be, will always trump the production of a new item. When will scientists understand this very simple fact?" You go on to cite electric cars as a specious example of apparent environmental harmlessness, because, you say, the car has to be thrown away when the battery loses capacity. I don't know where you got this idea about you vs "scientists". Any scientist worthy of the name does indeed recognize that the calculation of environmental friendliness or lack thereof is a product of many complex considerations. As regards electric cars, one of them would certainly be issues you mention. However, taking Tesla as a prime example, you are incorrect on nearly all your assumptions. Batteries in the original Tesla autos have a 200,000 mile life expectancy, and at the end of life, they certainly are replaceable by the factory or by any competent local electric vehicle mechanic. Current Tesla car batteries have a life expectancy of 500,000 miles. They are also re-cyclable at end of life. Most gasoline engine cars are rusting in the junk yard by or before they've done 200,000 miles. Both types of car can be crushed and recycled, when it comes to that. There is definitely a place for wood in analog audio. Wood can be an excellent component of a plinth built for constrained layer damping, in layers with other types of materials. In that application, infinitesimal changes of shape are first of all constrained by other tightly packed layers and second of all not important. Wood tonearms are perhaps controversial, but I've owned a Reed for about a decade, and it is still straight as an arrow per a laser measurement. (We don't put our tonearms outside in the weather, so concerns about warpage are way overblown in my opinion.) |
Already mentioned above, the Townshend Audio Rock turntables are like no other. A main feature of the Rock is the employment of a silicon fluid-filled damping trough across the front of the platter, within which rides a "paddle" that is bolted onto the arm’s headshell. The table is a cult item in the U.S., but was fairly mainstream in the U.K., where it is very highly regarded. The Rock Elite (MK.2) can be found for less than a grand, if you're up for something unique. |
I bought/have an Amazon Model one which the uK dealer said was the closest thing to the PT Anniversary. The Funk Firm n came out too late for me - I'd bought the Amazon - that's the closest to a modern version of the anniversary. Arthur went on to make the Funk Firm Saffire. A truly brilliant deck - i heard one and was mesmerised by how inherently 'right' it sounded - very hard to explain. Alvin Gold wrote for a few magazines if i recall. I recall in the early 90's he got rid of his Sondek and replaced it with the Roksan. Hi Fi Choice magazine were always big fans of Voyd and PT turntables - the problem was that What hifi and HiFi News were in love with the Linn/Naim chain. I very rarely buy HiFi world since Simon Pope left - it went on a loop of: Rega; Origin Live; Michell; Musical ical Fidelity and Garrard. I asked Simon at a show as to why all their reviews are so flattering and he said that in general few new products and shockers - and that manufacturers pay for reviews and want to hear what is said before a review goes out. Sorry guys I digress - but this is a forum for a bit of fun and banter...
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@greg7 - Would be good to hear your definition of "inexpensive". Some of the TTs that have been recommended here are not what I would consider inexpensive. However, everyone's finances and comfort level are different. So, what say you? What's your budget for this "inexpensive" TT? |
Clearthinker: I bought a VPI HW MK II in 1986. In 2014, I wanted to upgrade. I was going to buy a VPI Classic, but noticed the change in design philosophy. I called and asked Harvey about it. He told me that the lead ring used to make a HW was banned, therefore the new designs. He said to save myself $4,000 and simply upgrade the HW MK II to a MK IV. The table is just as good as the Classic. So I did. I’ve basically been using the same table for 36 years. I replace the belt every 5 years or so. My speakers are 66 years old. |
I bought a HW-19jr in 1989. Upgraded it as far as I could go through VPI. Then started DIYing the table. Bought a Classic 3 Sig SE around 3 years ago. The Classic is a much more dynamic table that can reach lower with more authority. The HW bases are too resonant. The inverted bearing is superior and/ thus the platter is self-leveling. |
try to find Technics SL1200MK4 in good condition, in US you will be needed to replace power transformer from 100V AC to 115V AC, plenty available for SL1200MK2/5. Key features: DD, 33 1/3, 45, 78 rpm, titanium arm which dampens resonances well, RCA connectors, which is allowing to use cable of your choice. I found this “old” Technics design the best for everyday listening, and it is a perfect match for Audio Technica AT150MLX MM, and AT-ART9/7 MC carts. No rumble noise, tight bass, stable speed, heavy mat, perfect tracking. |
I recommend an indestructible Victor QL7/QL7A still found at affordable prices, a small overhaul to the arm and counterweight support and it can be used for many years to come. I had the opportunity to perform some complete overhauls a short time ago, the engines and oil were clean as fresh, unlike the SP10mk2 engines with dirty oil or even no oil, worn by time .... yet those turntables were both produced in the 1970s |
@billwojo No doubt and they are still reasonably priced.😏 |
@best-groove Thank You for showing the Image of the Stator Housing Bowl. I have been working with a few Brands of Japanese Vintage DD TT's and have the intention to carry out modifications, where the use a modern material to be used an alternative for the Sacrificial Parts from the Platter Spindle Bearing Assembly. At the same time of carrying out an investigation, I check the Stator Bowl to see if there is a likely risk of flexion developing and causing Vertical Axis Run Out. I have a between two an three models of the ones being worked on, the intention is to undertake tests of the 'modified' vs 'used but original spec'. This as a modification method is already underway between a small group on the Sony TTS 8000, and is one seen adopted by some who offer Vintage equipment as their own products. In my view the Vintage DD TT's in general have got the Speed Stability nailed, especially when Quartz controlled, the electronics are a concern, but many buy into the TT, accepting the risks. There are many methods for Vintage TT's, that are seen for the mounting of the TT, the usual considerations are, use original Plinth, use a new material and design concept, as well as mount the TT 'in a Plinth/No Plinth. Obviously the 'no plinth' introduces new considerations for mounting the Tonearm. The age of the Bearing, Historical Rotations (usually unknown), Condition of the Bearing, are the most commonly overlooked area where a concerning issue might be present. A squirt of oil down a shaft is a real gamble, if thought of as the only requirement. For my sins, I can't rest with this as the only method, the idea that a expensive Cart' is working in conjunction with a non optimised Bearing Assembly leaves myself unrestful. Looking at the JVC Bowl Image, the material looks like it might be the most substantial gauge of metal used on any TT from this era, the Mounting Rim and Walls are looking like they are able to maintain a very rigid coupling to the Chassis and not yield when exertion through operation is met. As a guess, I would expect a very low concern for a Vertical Axis Run Out occurring and if need be, a very simple measure needed to improve the condition if present. Has anybody got any knowledge if this TT has been produced as a Kaneta Method. I now have a friend to produce the Kaneta Design for the SP10 MkII, the Bowl is to be very tight tolerance embedded into Densified Wood, to reduce the Vertical Axis Run Out, and hopefully leave any concerns to within the assembly within the Bearing Housing. I am over the moon as I have been knocking on the doors of two friends with this method as an idea for quite some time. Both friends producers of Tonearms and are also SP10 MkII users, these type of undertakings are best left to those who are adept with correct skills. The friend to produce the Kaneta Design, has taken the idea a stage further, where there is to be a Thermoplastic Platter produced, with a rim design to lower the centre of gravity and increase inertia. The rim design will also incorporate a design to enable additional methods to add weight and further increase inertia. The other friend sees their work heading toward the SP10 MkII Platter Spindle Bearing, and a design is on the table an to be imminently produced. It is time to get the two talking again, to see if an agreement can be come to, to allow the Modified Bearing Designs New Bowl, to be mountable into the Kaneta Design Plinth. This will be quite a change over the original, and also allow the Thermoplastic Platter to be used in both the Kaneta Design configurations.
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@pindac are you referring to a solution of this type?
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@best-groove This certainly is a method that is 'no plinth' when compared to a conventional Plinth design. There does seem to be a supporting structure attached to the TT, and is also a mounting device for the Tonearms. I have also seen a Selection of Standalone Arm Pods set up around the TT where multiple Tonearms were being utilised. @billwojo As said, I rely on the skills of others to achieve some of my ambitions for a design, when an individual sees the idea as a relevant investigation, and is willing to take on the project for their own means, then that is a great help to what I am looking to achieve. The Kaneta Design for the SP10 MkII is originating in Japan through a Dr Kaneta, he is today still quite influential in his other Electronic Designs and has a Variety of Amp's and Phonostages and a DAC, that are using not too common electronic devices as a key component in a circuit. To produce an Kaneta Design SP10 MkII, it requires the removal of the Stator Bowl from the Chassis and for it to be mounted into a purpose produced Plinth, that will keep the Axis of the Platter Spindle in a True Alignment. In Japan I have mainly seen a Board Material used as the material the Stator Bowl is mounted into. Outside of Japan there are designs that are using Polybentonite Resin Moulds to produce the Structure to mount the Stator Bowl into. Through private discussion I have been informed a Kaneta owner using a PolyB' Resin Plinth and a Modified Platter, has this model used in preference of their SP10 R. This is the method I am encouraging, but to use a Densified Wood Plinth that shares similar Damping and Dissipation properties to the PolyB' Resin mouldings. I acquired Three Spare SP10 MkII Platters, to work with to produce a composite design that is a method used by another Kaneta user. One Platter will have a 20mm Thick Acetal Disc Mechanically Fastened to the Platter, and another with a 10mm Gunmetal Disc and 10mm Acetal Disc Mechanically fastened to the Platter, and the second version can be trialed as a Gunmetal only design as well. I know of a person who has produced a SS Platter and Gunmetal Platter to be used on the Kaneta design they produce, and the two platters have been extremely similar to their latter Platter version of the Composite version for the Original Platter with the 20mm Acetal fastened to it. There is also a need to produce an off board EE Circuitry to enable Power on/off and speed selection, even though I have seen the Kaneta produced, with a limit to being a 33 Speed only design. Modifying the Bearing on the SP10 MkII has a more complex methodology and is not just a case of using the OEM parts as a repurposed method for them, and being able to reassemble the TT to its original build spec if so desired.
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By sharing my progress along a similar path, I'm thinking that I may spark some creative inspiration in you as well; I bought a solid, good working stock Thorens TD160 MK1 for $200.00 about ten years ago. I would have preferred buying a Lynn Sondek but they were beyond my budget. The Thorens was to become a project towards a dedicated mono table. I created a 3/4" X 3" tiger maple plinth, using calipers for exact positioning and had the corners mitered at a picture framing shop. I then employed Herbie's Audio washers between the inner plinth and the turntable chassis. I placed dampening material along the turntable's underneath chassis and sub chassis. I replaced the underneath mdf bottom with a 1/4 inch sheet of birch plywood. I stripped to a degree, the TP16 tonearm and rewired it, knowing that eventually it would be replaced. A Herbie's Way Excellent 2 record mat made a gigantic improvement over the stock sorbothane rubber mat. I then installed an AT 33 Mono Anniversary low output cartridge knowing that it too, would eventually be replaced. My next undertaking in the modification my TD160 will be to replace the stock TP16 tonearm with either an Origin Live Silver or Zephyr tonearm. For my next cartridge, I'm planning to install one of the EMT Mono Cartridges. It's been a long road for this table but it sounded good from the start and sounds so much better with each improvement along the way. With my ASR Mini Basis Exclusive phono amp, each modification has noticeably impacted the overall sound character. I can say too that its been a fun project. |
