Started with LP12 in Israel.Snotty Linn service people forced me to start tuning it myself.Spent up to 10 hours a week tuning the damn thing.On occasion it would sound marvelous,more often than not terrible.Moved to a Thorens 124 with SME .Eventually the 124 received a total platter weight of 40 lbs. and had 2 124 motors outside the TT running in tandem with an additional pulley.From there to a SOTA Cosmos SME V,then a Goldmund Studio.After hearing an EMT 950 at a friend's house,I saw the light.I had at one time a 950 and 948,now have a 950. |
No doubt the Woodsong/Vintage route could be the answer. Obviously, little or no options for audition, so my guess is most take the leap of faith. I've heard only good things about Chris Harbans work. I'm looking forward to my audition of the next contender in November. If anyone wants to know, ping me a PM, and I will share with you. If I make it public, it's tough to be honest about any potential negatives.
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nkonor, IME as one goes up the line with the LP12, only good things happen.
The Radikal and the sub chassis upgrades ( Cirkus) are very worthwhile upgrades and IMO bring with them a greater ability for the table to resolve finer detail. An 80's LP12 is a good TT, but compared to a current Klimax model, it really is not in the same league at all. I think the term 'audiophile' is not really what we are looking for here, but more musical and more accurate to source is. That is what I feel an upgraded LP12 is- and therefore it is more 'audiophile' in the sense that it reproduces the 'illusion' of the real more accurately.IMHO.
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After having many tables and arms of all sorts over the years, I now have a Garrard 301 in a Windsong plinth, with an Ortofon RS 309 D tonearm and a EMT JSD s75 cartridge as my primary analog setup. I am as happy as I have ever been with the sound from my system.
If you have a vintage table and tonearm setup an EMT cartridge is something worth trying in your system. |
I went up the Oracle Dephi chain and ended up at the mk5 but wasn't engaged in music anymore. so i've found a home in music again with a Garrard 301 with a layered Bamboo plinth and Jelco 12" arm. admittedlyI'm still cart hunting but using the Van Den Hull MC 10 low output MC I have had for years and still love it but may move on as its probably not a perfect match for the arm table. but i'm listening to much more music then I have had in years. so i think that says it all. |
fjn04- Talk with Chris Harban ( Woodsong Audio) about the LP12 when you inquire about the Reed arm... I have 2 of his plinths and he may pique your interest further regarding the LP12.
ATB,
Mark |
I have absolutely no doubt about the Linn tables. May be time to expand on my thinking. martykl- absolutely, so many variables going on.
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"engaging on an emotional level"...yep, that would be an LP12. Get the best one you can afford and enjoy your music!
ATB,
Mark
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My story at the risk of jinxing it is I’ve had the same Linn Axis table for 30 years now. Pretty boring story but still sounds great. Cart and phono preamps have changed though to get things where they need to be these days. |
As I moved up the analog food chain, I hit this phenomenon more than once. Because so many variables are moving at once - often two or more of: table, arm, cart, set up, phono section, etc - it's hard to be sure what is behind the issue. In my case, I've come to suspect that the cartridge and/or phono section are the primary culprits behind dry sound, but, like I said, more suspicion than conclusion.
FWIW |
Sounds like he made a very nice choice. I did hear a 401 in a Slate Plinth, but in a system a whole lot different than mine. I've already gone vintage with speakers....Bought a pair of Altec Valencia 846A's last year. Running a Shindo pre and amp in to the 16 Ohm Valencias. Many people in similar situations have gone vintage with a table. I'm just a serviceable setup and maintenance guy, so thus far, I've been reluctant.
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Many years ago a friend who was an opera buff and decent tenor swapped his LP12/VDH Grasshopper for the new Well Tempered TT and arm. I popped over for a listen. While he was pointing out the black backgrounds, I couldn’t help noticing that this was a step back. Gone was the sparkling clarity of the Sondek -replaced with a muted veiled grey coloration. He tried lots of cartridges, levels of silicone and even replaced his stacked 57s with 6’ Acustats. He eventually got rid of it and admitted it was not for him. He ended up with a 401 and Ortofon SPU. |
lewm- I'm going to take a stab at that, without referring to Websters to look up tenable. (-: With regard to the GTA, no offense taken.... In fact, I appreciate your candidness. That is exactly what I'm looking for. I won't debate your specific comments regarding the WT, although my LP's sure don't sound the same. I just went to audition a table/arm in a store, that had my cartridge. With this table, I heard a sameness from LP to LP. Everything sounded slow, lacked pace, and was dark and lifeless. I won't mention the table because it's irrelevant, and as we all know, there are always variables involved with setup and all. I believe the Amadeus is good at it's price point, but if I hear something in the 5-12K price range (with arm) that beats it, without losing the soul, I will be doing a victory dance. The table I heard last week certainly didn't, and it retailed for over 11K. I should be hearing another table next week, and that will be in the 6K range. bdp24- Indeed, the LINN tables have that reputation for serving the music first. I haven't had the opportunity to hear one. I do want to mention the REED tonearms have my attention. Woodsong is one of many dealers, and he pairs them with his vintage tables and hand made plinths. But I'm trying to get out there and hear what I can first.
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bdp24, bought my LP12 in 88'. Five months later, armed w/ setup jig, strobe & disc, setup manual; I moved to Alaska. The LP12 really started my "High End" addiction!" Played the Music! Even though I had an audio addiction since 70'. Did well at "Tuning" and upgrading the LP12.
Has only been "Tuned" by a Linn "Master" twice (2). Most recently by Tom at "Ovature Audio " in Ann Arbor, MI. At (28) yrs; It plays the Music! I bought a Kuzma rig at Axpona this past April. It plays the the Music too! Two very different TTs, arms,cartridges. Both play the Music, but I like the ergonomics of the Kuzma better and the azimuth adjust of the Kuzma arm brings better soundstage and imaging! The 12" Kuzma arm unravels the most complex passages. Have to admit that the LP12 with "Tom's" tuneup, "Plays the Tune!" My maintenance was always been audiophile good and so is the
Kuzma.
Thinking about the future; I wonder if upgrading to a Kore and Radical on the Linn starts making the Linn more audiophile? Or does it retain the "toe tapping " Music? All Linn owners that have made these changes; Please comment. Thanks in advance! |
fjn, Do you perceive an internal contradiction in your lament? On the one hand you think there is something special about the WT, and on the other hand you also think it is the weak link. Can you say how these two positions are both tenable?
I can only give you my own private opinion on the WT turntables I have heard. I generally keep this opinion private, because I know that WT has a lot of fans out there, and I do not wish to offend anyone, because after all, it's only my opinion. Anyway, I don't care for the tonearms one little bit. They are a classic example of a novel idea that is in the end not a good idea. They are unstable as to azimuth, and I hate the golf ball bearing. And the combination of the tt and the tonearm (I don't know for sure which is more to blame) makes all LPs sound pretty much the same. Always "nice"; always smooth. Usually lacking in detail and seeming to flatten transients. No offense meant to aficionados.
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The intent of starting this thread is to see what Turntable setup stood the test of time for you. My situation is this. I have a Well Tempered GTA, and quite frankly, I can't imagine letting it go. I know it has shortcomings, and certainly tables that cost double, triple, or 4X it's price, WILL do things better. The GTA is just south of 4K US btw. However, there are products out there that seem to lose the soul and emotion. I generalize with products, because I think it's true of sources, right through the chain to speakers. But let me not digress, and stay with the analog front end. I'm back in the market for a turntable, because as I have upgraded around the GTA, it has become the week link in my system. My price range is $5K-$10K for a table and tonearm. I think you all get where I'm going with this post. Sure, I want more audiophile bells and whistles. Deeper bass, blacker backgrounds, yada, yada, Darth Vader, Yoda. However, in the process, I don't want to lose what's most important.... The life and soul of the music.
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You're leaving out the main characters in this plot: What tonearm and cartridge? Did you transfer them to the new turntable from the old one en bloc? If not, what? It would also be good to know at least whether your new turntable uses a different type of drive system from your old one, which would be a principle culprit if you perceive a change of "flavor". You could tell us that much without naming names, if that is a problem.
As for me, no, this has never happened. I don't claim to have special powers of perception, but it has been my observation that every "upgrade" I have made in turntables per se has proven in the long run to be a real and lasting one. I have no thoughts of every going back to any of the old units I have owned previously.
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fjn, your scenario has been the heart of the argument for the Linn Sondek table since it's introduction in the early 70's. That it is the ability of a table, in fact all links in the hi-fi chain, to play music, not just make sound, that should be the basis for judging it's performance. That there are other tables that perhaps excel in purely sonic terms---tighter bass, more extended highs, etc---but none that "play" music as well. That makes reproduced music feel and move (temporally) the way live music does. Hardcore subjectivists even speak of a table's ability to express the "intent" of the musicians and singers. That's about as subjective as one can get! There is no set of measurements that correlates with or predicts a tables ability in this regard; it can be discerned only by listening. |
Last table or not I can't know but I do know that if I ever upgrade it will be along the line, not necessarily the same brand. I also know that I can first upgrade the arm and cartridge and get that motor controller. So I doubt that I will replace it in the next at least ten years. Pear Audio turntables, especially their top of the line model get interesting reviews that catch my attention. They think that it is quite special and a hell of a table/arm for the price. They may be right, if I had $10k for that I would definitely audition it, but I have no urge. In fact, the strongest links in my system are Spacedeck table and Purist Neptune RCA cables, so I got a lot of things to upgrade before even thinking of upgrading the table. |
Somewhat familiar, but not totally true in my case. Started with VPI HW-19 Jr and worked up to VPI HW-19 mk IV.
Yes, then the mystical force commanded me to upgrade, and I did to a Basis 2500 Signature w/ Calibrator base. Yes, the Basis was tighter, more articulate, quieter, music emerged from a blacker background, yada, yada, yada.
Years later I am now using a VPI Prime, and happy. I did not move on from the Basis because I tired of it's revealing nature though. I found that it mated very well with a Klyne 7PX5.0 phono stage and a ZYX 4-D X cartridge.
Plenty for the brain, but also very natural sounding for the heart.
My story ends with the downgrade due to job loss. Not as romantic ending as your story, but these things happen. I actually downgraded to a VPI Scout in 2010, but moved back up to the Prime in 2016.
I'm hoping this is my last turntable........and not in the sense that I'm hoping to die soon. ;^)
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This would not be my story, I never chase that ultimate hi-fi sound only ultimate engagement and musicality. Original Nottingham Spacedeck is one of those tables you referred to, preferably with Nottingham or Walker motor control. |
