Hi Orpheus10, I think then it comes down to a different world view, you seem to value pure SQ and simplicity. I need the setting to be conducive too: I want to listen to aesthetically pleasing music in an
aesthetically pleasing room (I reject brutalist HiFi even if it sounds good) and there is a joy in handling vinyl (especially an old 78 of Paul Robeson on an antique Victrola) but never mind how much you believe its the same, to many of us there is an emotional connection handling, for example, a 180g Dark Side of the Moon or other beloved recording on vinyl.
I am a "Moron"
And I will tell you why I am a moron. First I have gone through a great deal of effort and expense, to get playback of my vinyl collection utilizing my PC to sound identical to just playing a record.
There was much discussion and debate about this on the PC forum, in regard as to how to accomplish this feat. Essential, was the "computer analog interface", plus you had to change some of the cards in your PC; which kind of PC didn't matter. Many people knowledgeable of various interfaces submitted their solutions; while mine is not the most expensive, it gets the same results as those which are more expensive because it's heavily modified with the most expensive "Nichicon capacitors".
Everyone testified that there was not one iota of difference between playing a record, and listening to playback through the PC.
I also read of an account of an audiophile who could afford almost anything. He belonged to an audio club that met once a month; it was the kind that discussed the merits of Koetsu Coral stone, over other equally fine cartridges, while sipping vintage wine. They were devoted to the best tone arms and turntables as well.
This audiophile had everything except time. He read where he could down load his vinyl to PC, and enjoy the same playback without handling his precious records. Naturally he was skeptical, but no less than "Stereophile" assured him this was possible. After accomplishing this feat, he no longer played his records, but enjoyed them the new way.
When it was his turn to host the meeting, he did not divulge this, but continued to engage in the conversation as though he was still experimenting with tone arms, cartridges and etc. I believe if he had revealed his secret, he would have been banned from the club.
The reason I say I am a moron is because I have tried more than once to share my knowledge on the "Analog forum", to be completely and emphatically rejected.
Anyone who does the same thing numerous times expecting different results, is a moron; especially when they get the same results each time.
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Do I wonder how it all works? Sure...sometimes; and I have a decent (and no more) understanding of how it all works. Do I wonder how it all works while I’m listening to music? Almost never. I make a living (in part) dealing with nuances and differences in sound much finer than those at play here. I trust what my ears tell me, and they tell me what I wrote previously. Simple as that. The folly is thinking that we understand all that there is to understand about the things that affect the sound of recorded/reproduced music. |
Digits over here, digits over there, digits everywhere, and all of those digits have to go through a "Digital to Ana log converter" in order to be intelligible; your CD player, everything on your computer operates on digits, do you have any video equipment? You are living in a world of digits; no, your "analog" does not contain digits, but some of your records were digits before they became "analog"; which just goes to show digits are inescapable. Did you know that electrical impulses which shoot down a wire causing a magnetic field in a speaker to pump in and out travel at the speed of light, not the speed of sound; plus they go through all kinds of stuff before you hear one single solitary note. Do you question all of this when you're listening to music? Without a doubt, I assume all that exquisite equipment makes beautiful music, but do you ever stop and wonder how it all works? Ain't life fun. |
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Let me try this one Mo time; there is absolutely no audio internally in the computer; it's all digits. In this case, the digits are stored on an external hard drive; no matter how many times you retrieve these digits, you will get precisely the same thing every time, it will be precisely what you put in. Not until it goes through the DAC will it become "ana log" again When you have used the very best "interface" available (that I know of) to transfer very high end audio into computer digits, and stored this information on an external hard drive in the "WAV" format, which is the largest (best according to me); and you want to listen to this "very high end audio" you will simply request it, and you will hear it through your very high end DAC, that feeds your very high end preamp; you get the picture; this will get you the precise duplication of no computer in the mix at all. (I like to listen without getting up to turnover records, plus I have had fits of clumsiness) If you change cartridge, phono, or even tone arm wire, you will distinctly be able to hear that upgrade, but if you want to enjoy the upgrade, you will have to repeat this process of down loading to external hard drive. That is no bigger deal than playing the record, which you will do anyway. This is the best computer interface I know of, it was given 5 stars; that's rare for any piece of equipment. It functions as an AD converter on the way in, and a DAC on the way out, plus it has other desirable features. https://www.amazon.com/RME-ADI-2-Pro-4-out-Converter/dp/B01MTWM896/ref=pd_sbs_267_2?_encoding=UTF8&a.... Recently I made some upgrades, and I'm presently enjoying them. I know this was a complete waste, but sometimes that's what I do. |
I think it is fantastic that the OP has found a way to make his music listening easier, more practical and more enjoyable; hard to argue with that and I commend his effort to share the experience with others. I don’t think he should consider himself a moron for that reason. I would like to also agree with wqgq_641 re the record buying habits of computer techs; my 28 yr old being one of them. A secondary career for him is managing an up and coming young pop artist and they just released this artist’s second recording on vinyl (!!!) due to demand for the format. There is no question that there is a vinyl revival going on. Additionally, based on general rules of thumb arrived at over many years in this hobby and direct experience with my son’s and others’ experiments with the digitizing of analog recordings for storage and playback, I don’t believe that the sonic results are identical to the direct playback of lp’s. Excellent and very close? Yes, they can be. Identical? Anytime that additional processing of the music takes place there will inevitable losses in fidelity. Whether those losses are acceptable, or audible, to any one listener is a personal call. |
wqq, you got the age and educational level right, but I just flat out do not believe you in regard to all those computer experts being into records. I rely heavily on people I consult who have degrees in computer science, and none of them or their friends own one single solitary record; records are stupid, unless you already owned a ton of the things before CD. That's the only reason I got into high end analog, and I don't regret it because a whole new world has opened up; however, I think I read where Michael Fremer said this was possible with a Dual Turntable, and there is no way under the Sun this could be accomplished with the "mid fi" crap we were using that was considered to be good. If it had, we would not have gone to CD's. Other geezer friends of mine, sold their records and never looked back. The high end analog equipment required for records to exceed CD is very expensive, plus the fact that some CD's are better than some records. Initially, the CD versus records thing was valid, but the quality of new digital hardware has altered this; especially from an economic point of view. Considering the exorbitant cost of cartridges, turntables, tone arms, and phono amps; I should hope that records sound better; not to mention the exorbitant cost of the records themselves. My posts have been directed at any one who wishes to enjoy the benefits of everything they paid for, without handling those precious very expensive records but one time; twice if you include washing them; but apparently there are those who would rather play with records than listen to music. Without a doubt, you will need a computer expert to accomplish this feat of down loading perfectly to your external hard drive ( the computer speaks French, and "Ana log" is English; therefore, you will need a very good "interface" or interpreter to talk to your PC, which also means the services of someone who knows how to accomplish this feat; that goes for in and out to a high quality DAC) I became accustomed to reel before PC, which required a lot of blank tape that is no longer available, but the PC does not require blank tape, which makes it much better than a reel to reel. Many "audiophiles" on this very same forum have verified and validated what I have stated in regard to getting out of the PC precisely what you put in. |
@orpheus10 you say "I have never met a computer expert who owned a single record, or a record player." I guess you don't know many computer experts. I work in a computer group predominantly full of MIT and CMU post-grads. I am frequently overjoyed to see young 20-something computer engineers buying record players because of they find the music is more enjoyable. I hate to break it to you but Silicon Valley, home of big six figure salaries, is a hotbed of vinyl revival. Perhaps you would like to re-qualify your sweeping generalization? |
I spent years of reading, listening to frequency responses on test records, discovering which was the best cartridge for me before I settled down to music; now I can listen to music on the best set up of my life. If I wanted to diddle around and play with something, I would have gone into model trains. |
boxer12 said: "I like handling vinyl. I'm kind of sick that way..." I thought that was the whole point of vinyl, the ritual, the participation, fussing over stuff, measuring, balancing and aligning, up and down between sides, paying 4 times as much for content......SQ is only part of the fetish.... When I inherited my system (the TT is lower end and old) I went right out and bought a vinyl album. Some heavy weight clear 'vinyl' version of Astral Weeks. Sounds okay. Played it twice. Handled it with utmost care. The third time I played it the was a 'pop' right in the middle of Madam George (ugh! $25 down the tube.) I knew right then that I was either too heavy handed for vinyl or vinyl magically develops pops and scratches. |
I should know by now that this debate is not about audio, but religion; God forbid that I should ever go to the Middle East, because I'll get beheaded for sure; I can't help taking long looks at beautiful women, veils or no veils. When it comes to religion, I'm agnostic, but this is like "The Hatfields & The McCoys Feud"; you got to be on one side or the other. I'm on the side of "high end audio", and that's a fact. Now if the best cartridge someone ever heard was ceramic on a cheap record player, and they said records ain't worth squat, that would be valid; that's what I'm hearing with this "digitalis"; but I've never been much of a preacher, I always drank too much. Never the less, it's all in the "set up". I'll bet the "Ana Logers" pull up a chair at record level and watch the stylus squiggle in the grooves. (all in fun) |
I should know by now that this debate is not about audio, but religion; God forbid that I should ever go to the Middle East, because I'll get beheaded for sure; I can't help taking long looks at beautiful women, veils or no veils. When it comes to religion, I'm agnostic, but this is like "The Hatfields & The McCoys Feud"; you got to be on one side or the other. I'm on the side of "high end audio", and that's a fact. Now if the best cartridge someone ever heard was ceramic on a cheap record player, and they said records ain't worth squat, that would be valid; that's what I'm hearing with this "digitalis"; but I've never been much of a preacher, I always drank too much. Never the less, it's all in the "set up". I'll bet the "Ana Logers" pull up a chair at record level and watch the stylus squiggle in the grooves. (all in fun) |
*G* I've been away for awhile..happy to see that some things never change around here.... Orpheus10....We're all Bozos' on this bus....*heavy-handed pun*....each with one's own and owned preferences and references. 'Twas always thus, IMHO... "Y'know...I think a wooden horn fed with a bronze needle with the table driven by a spring from 'X' sounds better than That...'electric Thing'.....*snort* |
(*G* Late to the floor show....I've been 'away'....but obviously, some things don't change within these environs... ) Orpheus10...Loved the 'analogerites' tag; the 'flip' being 'digititals'? *rude snicker* ....as one whose 'collection' consists of vinyls, cassettes, CDs, and digital files I'd rather enjoy what's on the format ('primo' as to what was possible/practical for yours truly at the time & place) as opposed to engaging in seemingly endless debates as to which is Nirvana and what is Garbage... (*heavy-handed pun intended*) Look....ultimately....whether or no you listen with a 'system' within a 'space' that rivals the $ of a BMWhatever or a RatShack return found @ Goodwill and wired up with zipcords in the garage...if it's 'transcendent' Enough to put a smile on your face and make the neurons fire in an acceptable fashion... As is said: "WTF?, over?" It's akin to evolution, ultimately. Some changes in DNA, however 'better', didn't make the cut in the Long Haul. Meme-while, some did, and will continue anon, and on, and on, and on....enough to either dismay or delight....the 'debate' amuses me more than the subject matter.... Please, y'all...carry on. Just sweep up the fur, and mop up the blood occasionally, 'K? ;) |
When comparing reel playback to PC playback, 2 track reel is better, but that's at great expense when you consider the high price of blank tape; unless you're rich, the point is moot. This PC, analog controversy is not what it's made out to be; it's about "geezers" (those who own high end analog) who want to learn new tricks, and those who don't. Those who can hear something they have identified as "the stair step effect", but can't tell that a motion picture is no more than a bunch of still frames, or that transistors don't just stay on, but are going on and off constantly, are highly suspect. Old dogs don't want to learn new tricks, even when this trick is like getting a high end reel tape deck for very little, that comes with free tape. |
@orpheus10 , I should have been more precise. It's the covers and other informative material that comes with the physical media that I like handling. @cleeds , Well a bad warp can damage a stylus; but this was worse! in two places on each rotation the tonearm jerked pretty violently toward the spindle and just as violently back out. It happened on both sides and it was not that the center hole was off center. The grooves were not circular for the whole 360 degrees; but puckered in in two places. I can't imagine how that happened; but it scared me. of course there was mistracking, which can be damaging, but there was a lot of torque to the cantilever as well. I'm not saying it did damage the stylus. I do believe it would have had I not been standing right there and reacted quickly to lift the tonearm. |
Boxer, before computer, I used reel to reel tape decks; those were the only machines I really fell in love with. When they were popular, I would spend hours at the stereo store admiring the big expensive decks I couldn't afford. Since that time, which was many years ago, I have owned Akai, Teac, Otari, and Technics; needless to say, I became accustomed to recording my records. The availability of high quality blank tape threw a wrench into that process. I'm an "audiophile", not a PC expert, I don't understand the process either; I only know that it works, and it works precisely as I have stated that it works when you have the proper hardware. Fortunately, it's not as expensive as straight up audio, and if you purchase the hardware, which comes with some instructions, I believe you can make it happen. ( In all honesty, I have a computer "guru", we call them "geeks", who assists me; I only know what audiophiles know; I told him I wanted the output to sound precisely like the input, he told me what to buy, and we made it happen) From what I've read, I believe it's possible to put an "audiophile" PC system together without a "geek". |
I was just thinking something along both orpheus10's and boxer12's lines of thinking just before I opened this thread. It went like this. I may never buy another vinyl LP again. This after receiving a totally defective, stylus-damaging copy of MSFL's reissue of the Raspberries Best. That got me to thinking when was the last time I got a PERFECT condition LP in the mail: maybe never. There always seem to be blemishes that are at lest visible, if not audible. But like boxer12, I like handling media and the information that comes with it; 'Who wrote that? or I forget who is playing guitar. or I love that background singer! Who is she?' So I'm thinking about sticking with little shiny discs for a while. Just thinking, mind you. |
Crazyeddy, I have never met a computer expert who owned a single record, or a record player. Nor have I communicated with an "audiophile" who knows much about computers; myself included. My computer "guru" has a degree in computer science, and with his knowledge I'm able to make astounding accomplishments, such as playback that is indistinguishable from just playing a record straight out. There is no way I would spend the time, money, and effort required for what I have done, just to archive some records. As I explained in a previous post, I had to repeat this process of down loading my collection into an external hard drive, in order to enjoy a cartridge upgrade, plus a new phono with NOS Telefunken tubes. Now I can appreciate, or should I say "savor" all of the nuances my labors have brought about, without leaving my listening chair to even turn over one single solitary record. This enables me to get into the depths of the listening experience. I don't have any secrets; the information for one of the ways for you to duplicate my experience is on this thread. Enjoy the music. |
As you know, the better equipment you have, and the more attention you pay to detail, the better the audio. A top notch interface is essential to transferring analog to digital, your computer must like what you're feeding it, or it will not digest it properly https://www.amazon.com/RME-ADI-2-Pro-4-out-Converter/dp/B01MTWM896/ref=pd_sbs_267_2?_encoding=UTF8&a... I also use an Audio Blaster sound card, plus an external hard drive, and WAV as opposed to FLAC; that's why there is "0" difference between playing a record, and listening to the playback from my hard drive; I can even distinguish the minute differences between cartridges; which is why I have to re-record my vinyl if I upgrade cartridges and want to hear the improvement. That's a lot of trouble, but it's worth it to me. In regard to FLAC versus WAV; https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/flac-vs-wav If you are an "audiophile", all of this matters; if you want to have a perpetual smile on your face while enjoying records you have spent a lifetime collecting, without having to turn a single record over, this is the way to go. |
When I did my thing, nothing like what you have was available, and my only recourse was to buy what was available and rebuild it utilizing prime parts. The case wasn't big enough, and I had to even rebuild that; it reminded me of the very early days when audiophiles had to design and build their own rigs. Thanks to your post, if anything ever goes wrong I'll know what to do. |
At last, some verification, and validation of what I've been saying. While I've got the best of my entire collection on hard drive, I would never sell my LP's Just recently, I upgraded the phono with Telefunken tubes; bought a new cartridge; which meant I had to do the whole thing all over again in order to enjoy the new system without the hassle of handling records. That's what's so fantastic about what we have; we can program it any way we like, listen to wonderful records all night, without out ever leaving our listening chair. We enjoy every nuance and detail of playing records, without playing records. I know the infidels don't believe us, but I say "Let them eat cake if they have no bread"; especially after trying to inform them for the last time. After seeing all the nonbelievers, I realize how exclusive we are; that makes me feel rather special, as you should as well. Enjoy the music rtatts |
Moron? and being incorrigible: you could run for President but it seems your vocabulary is more than just a few words so you might be ineligible... Indeed ripping to FLAC files using high quality gear ( such as RME Pro 2 ) there's no audible difference between analog and digital playback I'm cashing out of a bunch of valuable Lps ( and keeping the music! ) Pure heresy I know... |
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Plenty of knowledgeable people on this forum stress over relative room humidity, cable burn in, iTunes vs Amarra, power conditioners, third party power cables, the characteristics of wood species for vibration isolation, etc etc. We should never expect to have truly objective conversations here. If someone can readily tell the difference between birch and ash wood isolation feet then who are we to tell them they can't or that they're nuts? As long as they don't tell me that I should hear the difference I'm good with it. And quite frankly, I don't get the whole vinyl thing myself. So it seems unfair for people with $10,000 TTs who convert to digital and claim it is just as good to poke fun at those with $10,000 TTs who are strictly vinyl and say digital isn't. No one can prove any of it. The truth is, this hobby is absurd. We might as well face it. |
Markum, that's what I do, "Just enjoy the music" without handling my precious records, except for the time I file them into the hard drive. My mistake was to try and inform those on another forum who don't know it's possible to enjoy the same quality of play back, and no longer handle your records, plus enjoying the convenience of programming them in any order you like. Knowledgeable people on this forum have already known that for some time. |
Thank you much Jim. What they don't realize, is the fact that it's all "analog"; digital is pure noise, that would be the sound before it goes through the digital to analog converter. The quality of the sound, "analog", depends as always on the quality of the equipment; they are comparing one analog to another analog and don't even know it. I don't even think they know movies are single frames of film moving past a light projector. When they talk on the phone, they have no idea that their conversation has been changed to very high frequency that goes to a micro wave tower, then transmitted to another tower that send it to the phone company where it is decoded back into "analog", or normal voice. People who know PC, no longer respond to posts like mine; the "Ana logerites" respond on both forums; but when you have something akin to a religion, you got to keep it going. Just having fun. |
When I interjected with what's your point I really meant don't bow down to luddites who will not listen to anything but vinyl and be assured that you are probably listening to superior technical sound and they are the morons. Remember also that with the introduction of the long play record for years afterwards there were people who woulld not listen to anything but 78s. So just enjoy your music your way and leave them to play with their toys. |
While it was offered free for 30 days, I downloaded and enjoyed Channel D’s Pure Vinyl and recorded a number of mt records to my MacBook Pro with great success. I used 192 kHz/24 bit and playback is darn close to the original. Perhaps it’s the software? The problem with this type of archiving is that 1) it takes time that could be otherwise spent listening and enjoying vinyl playback and 2) you can’t take it with you. Time is too precious to spend doing this. After the trial ran out I haven’t had any desire to continue doing that, even if the software were free. With a good vinyl playback set up, you ARE NOT going to wear out your records. |
