How to tame a bright system?

While cost isn’t everything, it is something. An ok $599streamer into a $2.5k interconnect and $12.6k DAC means that you are hearing everything (good and bad) that the streamer is producing.

What is the streamer producing?
I thought it was just a bit stream, and the DAC was doing the magic to make it analogue.

I am not even sure that the $2500 interconnect would do anything that the a $25 interconnect would not do.

Now the speakers I can understand could make a huge difference.

BTW: I was about to take the special 40, but their look really makes me hesitate. ...... why no white version ?!

Thank you all. It's me again, coming back with some useful info. I tried several speakers at a local store. Unfortunately, most of them sound forward and the music can be aggressive sometime. When I was about to leave, I saw a pair of Dynaudio S1.4. Had the last try and settled on them. Mainly because they are laid-back. I fell like sitting on the 3-4 row rather than the front row. So even aggressive music cannot punch on my face anymore since they are played at a safe distance. 

Back to my original statement, I think it is not about bright or dark, but mainly for the sound stage (forward or backward). With a backward sound stage, everything solved on my side. I appreciate other suggestions all the same. Limited by the energy, knowledge and skills, I cannot try them all, even I believe they will all work well somehow. 

SO NOW I have Bluesound n130 - Dave - fire - Etude - a pair of white S1.4 (first version). 

Enjoying music better than before. 

BTW: I did not find many speakers that have a laid-back sound stage, except the S1.4 and special 40. Most of the speakers are forward and punching on your face (or we should call it 3D?). Can I ask for some comments on that, is there any other speakers (say 5 inch) has a laid-back sound stage but good imaging and space?

Thanks all, take care!

best,

T.

Upgrade everything ASAP!!

Aniwolf +1

While cost isn’t everything, it is something. An ok $599streamer into a $2.5k interconnect and $12.6k DAC means that you are hearing everything (good and bad) that the streamer is producing.

Put another way, at $599 they can only spend so much on parts as they also need to provide for design, marketing, manufacturing & labor so something has to give. I haven’t heard that streamer, but it seems like you’ve found its weakness by paring it with such a revealing DAC.

"Bright" is definitely subjective. However, I have noticed in my own listening sessions that there is a lot of "bright" gear out there in the audio component world. I think that in their efforts to expand detail and soundstage, many audio manufacturers are now making products that sound brighter than their older models. This isn't a new problem, and it has affected the recording industry as well. I'm no expert, but I would say that this trend started with the advent of digital music. I notice it particularly with digital remasters of older recordings. I personally prefer the older analog recordings on vinyl to just about any other source. 

That being said, I do agree with some of the others who have indicated that B&W make some bright speakers. They'll dazzle you with detail, but their top-end glare can drive you nuts after a while. The one B&W speaker I have enjoyed in all of it's different iterations is the 805. I feel that this is now - and always has been - the most balanced and enjoyable speaker they've ever made. Just an opinion. 

In my main system I have a tube preamp running a pair of class A monobloc amps. I am using a pair of monitor speakers from England. When I finally got this system set up, I found that I could truly enjoy all of my music. Nothing seemed too "bright" anymore. Granted, you can't fix a crappy recording, even with the best audio gear. But most of what I listen to is vinyl and streaming, and it all sounds terrific.

Building a system takes time and money. This can be a very expensive hobby. As many of the others in this forum have suggested, I recommend auditioning different speakers. I agree with the "soft dome" tweeter recommendation (Dynaudio is great), and I think the ring radiators (Aerial, Sonus faber) are really good, too. Also, I strongly recommend giving GoldenEar a listen. I have a pair of these hooked up to a tube integrated amp in a separate system, and they are amazing! 

Anyway, have fun and be patient. It took me five years and a lot of buying/selling gear before I got it right...for me. 😎

Even if auditioning isn’t possible I would try a pair of Harbeth C7es3 xd. I can’t imagine you wouldn’t be happy. They are not overly warm whatsoever like some might have you think. They have a pretty similar frequency balance but with much much smoother upper missa and treble. The tone will a absolutely blow away your 606s. Really they are just in another league compared to the B&Ws and the Kefs. I understand liking your speakers despite their brightness. I went through this with Totema for over 5 years before moving on to smoother pastures. I tried Dynaudio Special 40s as well and really didn’t get the hype. To me they were very soulless although impressive in some hifi ways. ATC and Proac would be other good places to look. I think you will be blown away if you try any of these. I find nearly all speakers from companies who pump out “full lines” lacking. They make a 5in and a 6in bookshelf, then a 5in and 6in floor stander, as well as centers. Then they do it all over again for there mid tier and upper tier. Only to replace all of them every three years. I find it very difficult to believe much or any tuning be ear is done. The companies I’ve mentioned focus on a handful of speakers and make small changes over time but each has been fine tuned to a very high level. Anyways just my two cents but I’d strongly recommend branching out even if it means you have to buy to try.  

Crickets.

I chose Dynaudio speakers over B&W for exactly this reason. The B&W tweeter may measure impeccably but it can really get edgy. Tube buffer?

"Chord + Chord + B&W.  There you have it: a recipe for brightness"

 + 1

@Millercarbon Yes it is copy past because I stated "Its One of the solutions" in this case https://mathaudio.com/room-eq.htm.

https://mathaudio.com/testimonials.htm

I could have taken the same point from other solutions like Dirac, Lyngdorf , REW etc etc.

Point is you avoid the statement from me that really matters "whats wrong with measuring". Further more we could have an endless discussion about EQ, DSP, Room correction an again IMO leave it to the listener that has to decide. Probably we agree on one statement “Music/sound is in the ear of the beholder”.😉

• I like the idea of a measurement.
• I like the idea of compensating the room.

The idea of swapping cables to get some magic synergy seems like more of a crap shoot.

I am onboard.

Put some felt over the tweeter.

Small Incremental Tweaking to the Toe Alignment of the Speakers and Vertical Alignment can reduce the impact of the Upper Mid's and Highs on the Ears. This is a cheap experiment and might produce a improvement that has been overlooked even if it does not completely overcome the frequency levels impaction on yourself.

A Ring Donut of Soft Foam surrounding the Tweeter can have a very noticeable effect on controlling a Intense Upper Frequency, a few Donuts can be produced with differing Hole Diameters.   

The above two suggestions combined might prove enough and is quite cost effective as a method.

Another overlooked cause for such a intense presentation in the Upper Frequencies that are able to be detractors to certain listeners, is if a little too much gain is present through the device matching.

I have a -5db and -10db attenuator on standby for when such a suspicion is aroused. I at present have a -5db permanently in place, as a Pre Amp was able to produce a little too much gain, I can't detect any detriment to the SQ with the -5db in constant use.

As a Cable Suggestion I would recommend a D.U.C.C Wire in a Cable, these are a available from Mitsubishi (Manufacturer of Wire ) or Acrolink. My experience is that they are exceptional at resolving details and have a perception of a richness when compared to other Cables able to produce the detail. There might be just enough richness on offer from this wire to draw back on the High Frequency impact being detected by the ear, and keep the presentation close to the absolute preferred delivery.     

I use D.U.C.C in my System on certain devices and it is used alongside PC Triple C Wires, all Triple C wires can be startlingly revealing, the combination of wires and -5db, create the balance in presentation that is desired by myself.     

Check the tweeter height versus your ear height. I personally like my ear in between the tweeter and midrange. Also, try toeing out to not have the tweeter directly pointed at your ears. Finally, implement room treatment, especially at first reflection points. You'd be amazed at the difference in a well - treated room with appropriate speaker and sweet spot positioning.

Try replacing the screws on the tweeters with brass screws. Might help. Seems to work on mine. Cheap fix.

As others have said, it’s your speakers.  Switch your speakers to classic spendor/harbeth/stirling and your problem will magically go away. I’ve heard the Chord/spendor combo many times and they are a perfect match.  Maybe they are voiced together.  I think they share the same distributor.  

It's obvious that the recording engineer adjusted the frequency response at 2:39 to emphasize the song's presence (upper mids & treble). If this is the rare song that is too bright; find a better version. If you object to the brightness with many songs; I suggest replacing your electronics to a rich warm sounding tube amp & preamp. There's nothing wrong with your B&Ws, they play what they're fed. There are many to choose from; eg. Conrad Johnson has a warm house sound as do most EL34 based amps. After over 50 years mixing & matching and finally landing on a PX25 with horns, welcome to the merry-go-round (part of the hobby).

Acoustic - use absorbers at the back & ceiling. Electrical - use gold plated connectors. Use shielded power Cords. Placement - less toe in, some tilt, closer to the wall. Cabling - Audioquest earth as interlink. Vibration control - isoacoustics, nobsound. 

@unreceivedogma

Ok than it’s probably Isover consisting of fiber materials that had to be coverd.

@snarfie23

- the particular type of rockwool that I used has no formaldehyde.
- unlike fiberglass, which has sharp edges in its fibers, rockwool is beaded.
- it is completely covered with burlap.
- I waited for about 2 months before moving in to see if it “exhaled” dust. Finding almost none, I felt safe

- the safety record of the material is - so far (20 years) - good. No OSHA documented cases of cancer with this product 

@unreceivedogma 

I'm not a acoustic specialist. But i do know that not covering isolation materiales such as rockwool Isover etc could be a health Risk because you could inhale the particals.

So covering your panels with a cloth as i do is a good idea for heath reasons an it looks better 😉

@snarfie23 

I am guessing that covering the walls and ceiling - completely - with an acoustically deadening material is optimal? Yes or no?

@snarfie23

Thanks for that but frankly, all a little too anal for me.

As long as it sounds great to my ears, which it nowblessedly does, with the added side benefit of watching my guest’s jaws drop and their eyes bug out when I play their favorite piece of music that they THOUGHT they knew, I’m OK. 👍🏼🤗

@unreceivedogma

Mathaudio will not help. You have to make a REW measurments than you have to buy a Minidsp an upload the REW measurments into the Minidsp connect the analog recordplayer to the minidsp audio input which translatie an modify the analog input to a digital format which wil be translate back to An anolog signal to your amp. An possible other costly solution is looking for a pre or integrated amp with lyngdorf of dirac live incorporated which probably wil do the same with any analog input as Minidsp does. For instance NAD has such solution.

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/flex

@snarfie23 Snarfie23 :

I am analog through and through. Dunno about a DSP being of any help  

@snarfie23,

If you know that all music that we are listening to is mastered in a control rooms that has invested lots of money (sometimes in a ratio of 20% gear an 80% room treatment) in threating their rooms than it is IMO a no brainer were you have to look for in your own listening environment first. But for practical reasons for lot’s of us it is not really possible to rebuild our room but guess what we have DSP which requires no room treatment at all an can produce a Hugh improvement IF measurements are done correctly which is for the average Joe a pain to accomplish i guess (thats why i use Mathaudio Room EQ a simple free solution that even i can manage).😅

Agreed!

Snarfie23: my architect has designed recording studios.

It was his idea to save spending the many $$$$s that recording studios spend on room treatments by simply not covering the walls and ceiling with sheetrock.

Chord Etude amp?  Dump that.  George Meyer AV located in Los Angeles area, who is an authorized repair center for Levinson and Krell, and other top notch brands is selling a killer Mark Levinson ML-27.5 amp that's been fully gone through - meaning recapped.  That ML-27.5 is super smooth, dynamic, open, clean and clear up top.  It's a touch dark up top but that's just a Madrigal characteristic before they were sold to Harmon.  That Levinson will solve your problem with a bright top end.  You'll kick yourself and wonder why you didn't do it sooner.  

@ditusa  +1

@unreceivedogma +1

If you know that all music that we are listening to is mastered in a control rooms that has invested lots of money (sometimes in a ratio of 20% gear an 80% room treatment) in threating their rooms than it is IMO a no brainer were you have to look for in your own listening environment first. But for practical reasons for lot’s of us it is not really possible to rebuild our room but guess what we have DSP which requires no room treatment at all an can produce a Hugh improvement IF measurements are done correctly which is for the average Joe a pain to accomplish i guess (thats why i use Mathaudio Room EQ a simple free solution that even i can manage).😅

Quad 57’s are a good option. I’d see if someone has a pair for sale that they would be willing to let you audition. If you still have brightness while listening to the 57’s, then it’s something other than the speakers.

Hi Tension255,

Its easy to say to switch the speakers to a less 'bright' model. But then you need to have an appropriate amplifier to match those speakers, and so the cycle begins.  So I understand that you are looking to tame a system that is brighter through the use of cables.

Have you looked into adding some tweaks into your system?  Some tweaks such as vibration control will help tighten up your bass, which in turn can bring out more of the midrange frequencies.    Power cables can do this,  as can upgraded speaker wires and interconnects.  Power conditioning as well.   I like tweaks, especially the more reasonably priced ones, because they all can add up to an improved overall sound, and you can take them with you when you upgrade.

I recently added some Bybee Technologies Quantum clarifiers to the bass drivers of my Von Schweikert VR1 bookshelf speakers, which definitely improved the bass response and clarity. Better soundstage, and smoother and more air in the higher end. They are 2" square units and you simply attach via magnet to the rear driver magnet. $200 a pair for this tweak, and you can take it with you if/when you upgrade.  I have a bigger one on my amplifier as well - an Antique Sound Labs KT88 based integrated.

What kind of speaker stands are you using, and are they weighted down?  These can make a difference as well. 

I find that if you improve the bass response, you'll have a more balanced sound, because you will be bringing out more of the lower harmonics and transients of the music.   Hope this helps.

The cliche is true: the room is 50% of your system. Maybe more.
 

Agreed!

@snarfie23  +1

As I went down the thread, I was going to ask why no one is bothering to mention the room, but Snarfie23 saved the day, and with empirical measurements no less.

Measuring isn’t everything, of course. But I can offer you my personal, anecdotal experience that confirms Snarfie23’s post, notwithstanding MC’s clamorous protestations to the contrary.

For 41 years, my system suffered from brightness and harshness in a 1,200 sq ft space in a 2,000 sq ft NYC loft.

Then, I moved into a townhouse that I renovated and restored. My office and (smaller, 550 sq ft) listening room is in the attic. I did not cover the 17" of rock wool insulation with sheetrock. I instead simply put fire-resistant burlap over it.

The problem went away.

As I slowly populated my bookshelves with my library, it came back, only a little.

The cliche is true: the room is 50% of your system. Maybe more.

You are welcome to try it and see if it works for you.

Full disclosure: I am neutral on cables.

Your setup probably suffering from digititis. You want to fix it with cables. Good luck with that. IMO the answer is a balanced power transformer. Does wonders to tame jitter. Of course no one will give my opinion any credence. Had to say it anyway. Thanks for listening.

@snarfie23 Two great points.  Room acoustics were my first thought too.  Is there a hard floor between you and the speakers?  If so, try adding a rug.  And a second great point, no electronic solution can correct for a problem with acoustics.  Period.  

Tension - I use a Schiit Loki (the small one) to resolve the exact issue you are talking about. It runs in the processor loop on my receiver and is completely transparent. Only $150 too. If you get it and don't like it, I am looking for another one and will buy it from you. Just get the black one - I already have a silver one.

Geoff

2nd suggestion for Nobsound springs. Get 2 sets and place them under your amp, then the DAC. Guaranteed to make the sound mellow and treble less tinny, sounding fuller, lusher and more analog. The only disadvantage is you need to spend some time and effort in getting the spring configuration right. For the price they are quite a bargain.

Good isolation for your equipment and speakers will bring a more natural sound to the system.. Percussion and cymbals will sound more natural and real with a more accurate tone when the gear are properly isolated.  Ditto the midrange and bass.  Do give it a try.

Bought a pair of ProAc Tablettes 30 years ago. Did not get along with them and found no solution other than new speakers.

B&W speakers, although nice, as I’ve owned a pair, can slice the top of your head off with the harsh at times treble. I don't have this problem with either my tannoys or Wharfedales.

@Millercarbon Yes it is copy past because I stated "Its One of the solutions" in this case https://mathaudio.com/room-eq.htm.

https://mathaudio.com/testimonials.htm

I could have taken the same point from other solutions like Dirac, Lyngdorf , REW etc etc.

Point is you avoid the statement from me that really matters "whats wrong with measuring". Further more we could have an endless discussion about EQ, DSP, Room correction an again IMO leave it to the listener that has to decide. Probably we agree on one statement “Music/sound is in the ear of the beholder”.😉

snarfie23, I’m sure you cut and pasted that. But in case you actually wrote it, when (if) you wake up from OD'd on the Cool-Aid, stop and think about what you "said"-

allows one to reach the maximum transparency of the sound.

Transparent means clear, you can see through it, as if nothing is there. But everything you talked about is altering what is there. It is manipulated. Far from optically clear transparent glass you want an image distorted with with lenses to look the way you think it should look. By definition literally the exact opposite of transparent.

All the rest is equally double-talk. That’s why.

If the unpleasantness appeared with the AQ Fire why don’t you get something else that’s not harsh?

Chen audio labs WRT cables 

beautiful from top to bottom .

@millercarbon

Really whats wrong with measuring even when it cost you Nothing only than a measuring Mic for less than a 100 bucks. If you don’t like the result heck bypass the sound an be happy. Let people decide them self.

One of the solution the latest room correction can bring you.

• Corrects deficiencies of room acoustics (multipoint compensation).
• Corrects acoustic imperfections of speakers.
• Avoids the pre-echo (pre-ringing) problem of conventional convolver-based room correction systems. The absence of pre-echo ensures the neutrality of the sound.
• Works in rooms, halls and outdoor venues of any size.
• Works with zero latency. Perfect for live performances and studio monitoring. Doesn't delay the audio track when playing video.

• Performs frequency response correction, phase response correction and time domain correction.
• Quells resonance peaks of frequency response while leaving the deep notches. Avoids the overcompensation which happens in conventional linearizing room correction systems.
• Manually adjustable level of compensation allows one to reach the maximum transparency of the sound.

Sorry OP - this seems very, very unbalanced: a high dollar, highly resolving upstream, paired with $900 metal dome tweeter 2-way bookshelf speakers. The Fire XLR alone lists at $3,500 / 1m. I think a lot of folks would’ve predicted the issues you’re having.

Obviously, you’ve got a lot advice to fix that imbalance. What you have, would be a great upstream for a lot of nice speakers.

On to cables - as others have also mentioned, the Fire is not exactly a relaxed sounding cable. It’s a cable I love, but it’s a little bit more aggressive than even other silver cables in the AQ line. I find my 1st gen Wild Blue Yonders are a little warmer and more relaxed than Fire. The Fire’s predecessor Sky (also 1st gen in my case) was also certainly warmer. The Wind is not the right move - it’s overall similar in tonality to Fire, but lacks the latter’s bass impact and body. And the WEL Signature sounds very much like an extension of the Fire. In fact the Fire sounds like like a WEL Junior. I’ve had both RCA and XLR pairs of all these cables. I’m not sure if later versions of Wild and Sky carry forward the 1st versions’ warmth, but those and the very limited "Horizon" model are worth looking at when they come up used. Quite honestly the v1 Wilds are probably my favorite. The copper cables (I had Colorado RCA and XLR) are a LOT warmer, at the sacrifice of some resolution. 

This was as close to Unanimous advice as I have ever seen on Audiogon, a clear majority identified the culprit right away. Yet OP defends the sound of his overly bright B&W speakers, which he “tested”?  Then at home he heard what those speakers really sound like, but rejects the evidence of his own ears.    and the op’s system resource allocation is absurd, as several people pointed out.

It’s an old story.  Pearls before swine. 
 

Room EQ is a horrible answer. Always ruins detail as you have noticed. Another unavoidable problem with EQ it is impossible to alter frequency response without also altering timing and timbre. It is just an awful "solution" but it hangs around because it does make for nice charts, and some audiophiles are way more in love with their charts than their music.

Everyone knows your problem is your speakers. But you insist on not doing the one thing that will make the most difference. Instead you are determined to focus on cables. Even though you know you already have an excellent cable that makes everything better. Synergistic Research will get you the excellent bass and dynamics you like. There are a lot of used ones out there at great prices, and Ted has been making them so consistent for so long you can rely on that consistency and shop by price. Don't know if that will solve your speaker problem but kind of painted into a corner here on options.

I agree on evaluating your speakers.

B&W has a great reputation and the diamond tweeters irritated my ears.  I think you may find an eager buyer to change the outcome versus 'changing' the signal from the source to the speakers.