Speaker
cables do have a significant role in how our system sounds. Different cables
sound different.
So which one is the right one for you?
The
Speaker Cable is an extension of the Amp. and not an addition to the speaker's
load. It shall have a certain resistance (low) not to spoil the Amp's DF
figure. As so, it can be calculated and there is a formula to do it.
The
higher the Amp's DF, the lower the Speaker Cable's resistance shall be. As
today SS power Amp's get DFs of 400 and above (Digital Amps go by thousands) the cable of
10 ft (3m) long, gets as thick as 0 AWG.
I
can see your eyebrows elevates, when that thick cable is to be deal with. Most Speaker
Cable makers skip it because of that. So most cables on the market (regardless of
the look or price) are of 14-12 AWG. Way less that supposed to be.
Worst!
no Speaker Cable maker, dealer or seller knows the answer, of what is the
correct cable for your system.
So most of us ended up, with a cables too thin
for the task.
A
conducted test, on this site, about a year ago as well as with some closer friends, shows a
significant improvement with a calculated size cable over their previous cable.
The results were all positive and preferred the calculated cable.
So,
instead of asking: which of two brands, or two prices or two colors of Speaker
Cable do I need, you should ask how thick of a Speaker Cable do I need.
I'll
be happy to provide you the calculation, for who request it. All you need to
provide is:
Cool thread. When I agree with Miller (for different reasons) you can be sure there are issues. Thread is pretty much a sharing of delusions and inaccuracies.
So unless you use some cable with a twick, like MIT with a box or similar, getting thicker should not effect your sound.
Operative word being "should".
This comes up a lot. In fact it is your entire thread. What "should" be. What impurities, thicknesses, length, DF, on and on and freaking on, an endless stream of what you think "should" effect your sound.
Have you ever bothered to compare? To actually listen? To know, for a change, what "is"? Or is that too much to ask?
b4icu Thanks for your time and your shares. I admire and appreciate your knowledge, focus on data and a certain style in the answers.
Finally an approach to choose a cable that is not based on emotional shit, exotic names, sensations, lunar shielding processes but not even on '' the cable does not count for anything ''. I am a civil architect with little experience in the audio field but I smell when a civil engineer or heat engineer, or electrical engineer is not wasting my time on my work with bullshit. You are indicating a method, you are open to discussion and do not seem to be in a conflict of interest. Good boy! I take advantage of your patience. I am about to purchase a Luxman M-900 amplifier with Damping Factor 710. The cables should be 2 meters long. So on one side they must have a spade connection and on the other a banana connection (Dali Epicon 8 speakers). So which section should I use in order not to degrade the good DF of my new amplifier? Thank you so much for your attention. Alessandro
Just for the record, the most ordinary copper wire in the electrical industry, has by standard a purity of 99.98%. So no matter how much of an effort or price is added, it worth only 0.02% in conductivity (resistance). Moving from copper to Silver, that is agreed to be the best conductor from all materials, Silver is only 5% better than copper but costs (crude stock market price) 130 times more. Adding 5% in the copper wire cross section, would equal it to the silver wire... So, as I see it, this is not the light to look under it, for the missing coin.
DF is about control. The ability of the Amp to drive a compex speaker coil, that is also a generator, objection equally the current caused it to move. Add a crossover with some C and L. When DF is low (as the case with tubes), the Amp’s designer, by intention, gave up that quality. Tubes have by nature low current and high voltage. All tube amps use an output transformer to convert that into lower voltage and higher current. Some, like McIntosh use such topology even with their SS amps, to achieve a tube like sound, without using tubes. Keep in mind that most speakers impedance is 8 ohms, so at 2.83V they consume 1W. For that reason, the serial resistance that the speaker cable add to the Amp’s output resistance is insignificant with a DF=20. It’s more significant when DF=200 or 800... When that parameter with SS amps, and DF>200 is achieved, it provides clarity and better bass. Tight and clear. Such would have a positive effect on the mid and highs, as they get a release from the "heavy bass".
Well, the formula suggests an improvement from thin cables till the calculated value is applied. When that is increased, above the calculated value, sound remains the same. Only the cable is getting more expensive and difficult to build. This been tested with my friend’s system (B&W801D with 250W Pass lab’s power amp with DF=200). I calculated his cable to be of #4 AWG and 3m long and built one for him. Some time ago, after completed a demo cable of the very same length (3m) but #0 AWG, I put it to test and compared between the two: #4 AWG vs #0 AWG. As predicted, there was no improvement or degradation in sound. They sounded identical. So unless you use some cable with a twick, like MIT with a box or similar, getting thicker should not effect your sound.
I've tried several in that size and find variation in sound. One thing I have noticed which makes sense with your analysis, is larger cables tend to add brightness with low df amps. Is that a function of impedance? My ears agree with your formula it seems there is something said for quality of materials, geometries, etc? Thanks for the interesting thread!
Playing around with specimens might be fun as playing search and cath blindfolded. This game is fun for kids till a certain age. After, it becomes childish. So is your pathetic say about your ways to get to the right speaker cable. Not to say, that even the one you poses now, is NOT the one. It might as well be another step in your journey. An endless journey. No need any more. Now, as the knowledge is there, it can be reached on the 1st attempt. Even though you are very proud of your enjoyable journey, it doesn’t give you a clue of what is the best (and right) cable for the next guy that is going to visit the audio shop, for his speaker cable! You offer him an endless journey, with no promised results, but maybe a joy from the journey... I offer him a quick calculation, and the right cale, spot on, on the first attempt. In other words, lets say that we (you and me) are saling two different GPS navigators (Never lost). Yours will go around, get you some journey, but no garanties for getting to your destiny, but giving you some illusion that you will get there soon. Mine, is a 1st time on spot, with the fastest and shortest path. I’m really sorry for your poor choice. I do acknowledge that your way is very beneficial for cable makers, sales guys and shop owners. I kind of think, that you are just happy to feed them with your hard earned $$$. No need. There is a way available to save all that.
Again, you miss the point...are you that dim? I am fortunate enough to have played around with various setups over the years because it’s fun and illuminating. They were all great systems and I fully enjoyed each and every one. I am not trying to reach K2....I have been there several times over and love exploring new avenues. With such a journey one experiences first hand, that which others only fantasize about or worse, claim they have a magic recipe born of a rather small perspective. Does that help you understand? I hope so...perhaps my large words, proper grammar and descriptive adjectives have made it difficult for you to follow along?
Enjoy the journey. It will never end. However thanks for enlightening the followers, it is "first hand experience" rather some understanding or knowledge. It is sad and disappointing, to find out after so long that you are as ignorant you were when your journey started. It is comforting that at least you had enjoyed that nothing.
You know that your request is impossible to fulfil, as cable makers do not provide spec. information. For a reason. So what can we compare with? Your joy?
You miss the point...it’s the journey I have enjoyed and with it followed first hand experience with a world of audio you could only dream of. Question though, where have you posted the extensive work and commensurate array of equipment, including source material, with comparative analysis of other cables ($100 to say $10k).
Sorry for your fixed minded and narrow view, that gets you to the conclusion that trying more, gets you somewhere. It can only tell you that all passed attempts failed. Otherwise, how would you explain the rest of your endless trying ? The one who is delusional is you. If you would follow, rather than argue, you could nail it on the first attempt. Would that be better and less costly? What insights do you have from all your tries? Try more? Do you know what characteristics of one cable' of all tries, prevails on another cable? Would getting more of that would get you a better sound?
Your say only proves, that you spent a lot of time (and money) for nothing. Congratulations. If you would have the knowledge, it would save you all that. This is the advantage of knowledge over ignorance. Dave, some knowledge don't hurt. Ignorance does. This debate, over something I extensively tested and approved, over you, who never tried is an absurd.
I agree there is no point in telling a flat lander that there is a third dimension. FYI, already mentioned I tried many a such panacea touted as a remedy for the common audiophile. Happy delusional listening 👂
Owning equipment gets you no knowledge about it. So your bumptious response gets you no advantage. Its only a miserable attempt of a shallow character. All you may say is that you can afford the equipment.
Instead of wasting time (yours and mine) arguing a subject you do not understand, just try it. If you would do, and get different results, we could have a conversation. As all you have to bring to the table, is a negative attitude, statements of ownership and tones of ignorance, I see no point to keep arguing with you.
I have a vast experience with actually owning more equipment and cables in various houses than can be dreamt of by your small....anyway, I have a world of knowledge in me that can be applied to various issues pertaining to audio. There are certain cables, for instance, that I have found to be more efficacious for the discriminating audiophile, which yield superior performance over a broad range of electronics and speakers. Admittedly, conversing with someone who has apparently committed so much of their energy pursuing an appropriately small idea, commensurate with the amount of understanding expressed regarding the effectiveness and performance of audio cables, is a recipe for disappointment. Enjoy the Lilliputian land of your own design and may the all and powerful DF yield rewards equivalent to the less than significant theoretical proposals you have made within this post.
Regardless, if you have a point or not, till you won't offer a
better
solution, you practically have nothing. I also have more than 40 years of experience, but this "eurica" came to me only in the past 10-15 years. I did extensive tests and used this stage of Audiogon, to run it around the world: US, England, Singapore, Israel and more. I worked everywhere it was given a try. It started (naturally) with my own sound system (Klipsch Forte-II with CARVER TFM-35). Than I went with the same idea to a dear neighbour of mine, with a KEF Ref. and a McIntosh SS power. It had no improvement! That drove me to the drawing board and came out with a formula. The idea was, as just mentioned, tested extensively. So tests approved it works. What do you have? Nothing!
The answer is NO ! It was tested with a system of a friend, using PASS LAB 250W power Amp, with calculated cables of #4 AWG. On an occasion I made a new cable of #0 AWG for demo, I tested it with his system (and a nice bottle of wine), replacing the #4 AWG, by the #0 AWG. Sound did not improved.
I need to say that your DF is kind of low (40), so it really not the place to look for the sound improvement. Usually DF is about controlling the speakers. If so, the higher the better. To get the control effect with high DF Amp's a proper cable is required.
@b4icu Your DF calculation, while doing no harm and perhaps optimizing one aspect of making a proper connection, is overly simplistic and has no direct relationship to the effects the cable inherently impresses upon the net sound of your system. To seriously think this is a panacea is laughable, bordering on delusional! I have used such theories and cable experiments for the last 40 years. I have also owned $20k cables. One size does not fit all...on the other hand, having a very small minded solution to a complex problem is naive and misguided at best.
Thanks b4icu! According to your calculations and experience, in my case, would a wire thicker than #16 AWG actually hurt sound quality, or would it just be diminishing benefit?
There is a post in my mailbox, that is missing here. For a reason...?
1. Yes, I know Jeff Rowland. 2. No, I didn't hear your model playing. 3. I never tend to say if DF of a 100 is good or bad. It is relatively low for power amps. Most have more...Just a fact. 4. Never thought to undermine anyone 's equipment. It was your choice to buy it, and I respect it. So please no offence regarding low, mid or high DF. It is what it is. However, I do sincerely apologize if I hurt any feelings. Never meant such to happen.
Why talking when you can walk down to the field and play it? Try this out, and than see. You are kind of having an Anti-approach, while never gave it a try. Why not? It will cost you nickels compared to other fancy cables, or any other change in your hi-end audio gear. With fantastic results. It should stay under $100. No other attempt would cost you so little, and gain you so much. Sorry if I need to apologize, that I figured it out. But I did, and others did not.
The DF is a given, once you purchase your Amp. You can look for a better, or let it be as is. DF is defined as the ratio (pure number) between the constant, pure resistive value of 8 ohms of a speaker load, divided by the Amp’s output resistance. The figure of output resistance is the way the Amp’s drives the speaker. Keep in mind that a speaker is a complex device with reverse current, generated by the speaker to resist the Amps will to move it. So at that part, DF is critical. However, tube amp’s sound nice and have very low DF! less than 20... It is nice but not right. Some like it this way, others like it that way.
Some pick a very beautiful wife and do love when their eyes are open. For the less fortunate, there is the option to close their eyes and imagine...
Some makers, often mentioned here, may have some says, but none tells you what spec. should your speaker cable have. NONE! The only Amp maker that went this way (telling you about speaker cabling) is MBL. They mention it, but they not tell you nothing. Even the DF is top secret. Sorry, that is not a recommandation! mine is. The idea I bring, been tested and proven. Even with over thick cables (vs calculation) that brought no sonic improvement. It is correct that some combinations (Amp’s / Speakers / Cables) has more significant improvement, when other combination has less. If you follow the physics and get the optimal cable as calculated, it guarantees that you are good. Any other approach, is a blind shot in the dark. The problem is that no manufacturer is telling you which cable you need, and every try is a load on your wallet. Yes, for those who have more money that brain, or money is not an object, it may be a game they will be willing to finance. Still a waist of time, with never know if you have reached the best or still looking... For all others, there is a way to go, to nail it on the first and only required approach: Calculating the cable and than get one.
Mr. b4icu- From what I’ve read about damping factor, a high number is not a be all and end all. A lot depends on the speakers being driven(JM Lab Mezzo Utopia’s @ 4ohm, 92.5dB sensitivity) and the marriage between the 2.
Not to sound defensive but I have a feeling that Jeff Rowland knows what he’s doing with his amp designs.
Your equation does not take into account the speakers and their resistance etc.. The Model 12 manual lists the DF value as >(greater than)100. Not 100. So, I don’t know how much greater than 100. The president of PS Audio states that a DF of about 100 is going to control a speaker just fine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFifYcepPaM Anyhow, the system sounds great but better speaker cables will be even better.... Vertere Acoustics mains and speaker cables all start at 2 meters. They did tests and that is the minimum length they were satisfied with. I asked about 1 meter mains. No go...I cannot go 1 meter anyhow but I will certainly keep the cable gauge in mind.
The Wire World website information is irrelevant. Use an OFC cable that is flexible enough, with lots of thin strands, would be the best. For length: you need to say. The thickness for such length, is set by the Amp's DF spec. All tricks as for skin effect, cable's geometry, cryo treatment, Bi-Wire, or any other of that long list (including Burn Ib (BI) are nothing but BS. My suggestion, to use two separate (the red and black), and not a twin in one cable. That is the best for no Capacitance.
Mr. Dave_b2
MIT use a small box along the cable. that has some passive components. Look at it is some filter, if not a gimmick to charge you and doe nothing! I opened once an MIT cable, they use HF antenna cables, with shield and solid middle wire. They are shorten at the ends.
Look at a cable that works with your DF and length. Pass me the information and I'll calculate for you the AWG. It's for free. At least you will know what AWG you need. The brand providing it is insignificunt.
The relation of a copper conductor (cable, wire) is: R = ro x L (m) / S (sq. mm) When R is the resistance (in Ohms), ro is the copper constant conductivity value, L is the length in meters and S is the cross section in square millimeters. You may use the AWG table: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm For every 1/2 on length, that the cables is shorter, you can let also 1/2 on cross section, so the R will remain the same. Why 2 meters? Why not 1 m? (3') it's more than enough. On 1 m you can go with #12 AWG. For 2m as you ask for (!) is #9-10 AWG. A DF of 100 is not much for monoblocks. A mediocre Japanese receiver of the 70's was 40! Follow my recommendations about eBay and Nakamichi banana plugs, you will end under $100.- for the best results. The Nakamichi banana plugs can have up to an #8 AWG cable, without problems. The labor time is about 1hr. the results: excellent.
I got the Audioquest cables for free...my custom MIT BIWIRES are coming soon! I’ve been through the mill and I’ve learned what works for me...and y’a can’t learn it from specs or graphs. It ain’t that simple...too many variables. The only fundamental difference I’ve heard in cables are with MIT....puts my rear quarters in the club man! I can smell the whiskey and the sweat flying off Coltrane...sweet;)
The reason the speaker cables are 8 ft is the nature of the Straight Wire Crescendo cable. If you look up a picture, the cable is a thick, minimally bendable rope of a cable due to it’s foam/PTFE insulation and compression . But the main issue is where the right side monoblock is sitting in my equipment rack vs. the left side. There is a wall corner on the right side that the cable has to navigate around and the dealer/installer wanted to keep the cable lengths the same.
And yes, the interconnects between my Classe processor and Model 12’s are XLR.
I will be moving on to new speaker cables soon enough and will definitely want them shorter and more flexible. That is why I was looking at Vertere Acoustics as my analog rig, interconnects and mains cables are mostly Vertere. I’ve read "ideally" you want the same company’s wires and cables due to similar dialectics etc but the speaker cables may not apply to that.....
Again, with amps of a damping factor >100, if I went with 6’ cables, which AWG would you advise. Would that gauge be different for 2 meters(6.5')? Thank you.
OP, go to Wire World website and look at the Series 8 specs. It has numerous upgrades to make it a great cable, then compare to any other cable company's specs
The brend is not significant. The cable’s electric characteristics ARE! No cable brend, as respected as they are, do not propose you what you need, by the requirements of your gear. Getting and "Audioquest Rocket 33", or any other is a dumm shot in the dark. You may repeat that costly try again and again, with no guarantee to hit the right cable! but it will be be an expensive and frustrating process.
For 8' long and DF of 100 you need a #8 AWG cable. But why 8' if you have two monoblocks? Place them as close as possible to the speakers and run the distance between the pre and the
monoblocks with XLR. However, if you stick to the 8' arrangement, I would advise you to find some #8 AWG cable on eBay, pair it (by soldering) with 8 Nakamichi banana plugs: https://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-Nakamichi-24k-Gold-Plated-Audio-BFA-Banana-Speaker-Plug-Screw-Cable-Wire... It will sound better than any cable you may buy...
How? Try it. But since you asked...Audioquest Rocket 33’s are unbelievably great for the price and outperform many overpriced cables. I’ve owned them...the overpriced stuff. There is a place for some expensive cables, but for most Audiophiles Audioquest is more than good... they are a true value!!
Mr. b4icu. Jeff Rowland Model 12 monoblocks- >100 DF 8 ft. speaker cables(Straight Wire 2009 first edition Crescendo cables).
They now make Crescendo 3's-The CDA 101 conductors are now “compacted” with 6% compression instead of 3-4%. Composed of 12 conductors groups at 15awg. Original Crescendo likely also 15 awg.
I was considering a different companies cables that are supposed to be excellent(Vertere Acoustics). But will await your thoughts. Thank you very much indeed.
What is the relevance of your post and IF issues on
Aerospace equipment, to speaker cables or it's calculation? NONE!!!
If RF/IF do have effect on audio in airborne/military equipment / systems, MIL STD 810 should take care of it. The Audio issues in airborne equipment is mainly by blocking radio channels with noise. Absolutely irrelevant to home audio.
However, I'm thankful for your sharing what you did in the past 30 years of your life.
I guess you never checked my recommendation of calculating (for you) he #AWG and you put such a cable to test and listen to it, playing with your sound system.
There are plenty well founded design rules in Aerospace ( 30+ years doing that including running wire shops, electronic Fab, etc for orbital and sub orbital hardware ) for wire separation between heavy load and more delicate signals. The modulation IF you don’t separate the wire is measurable... and in audio clearly audible.
"calculations which cannot always be trusted" Tell this no NASA or any Airborne manufacturer.
Bi/tri- wiring is BS. Run it on a Spice simulation and see why.
No conductor needs BI. It is the most common say for dealers to prevent a bad sounding product, from being returned and refunded. For real, nothing changes over time.
Mr. unfairlane, over your skills and talents, you talk of subject and I’m not going to offer you a job...
1: The calculations are not too accurate but the main thing is that just the resistance IS the main problem with speakercables (resistance kills dynamics). The (stranded) conductors internal interference is the second most important.
2: First part is correct. We can reduce serial resistance until it is negligable, on a insignificant level, beyond that it`s nothing moore to gain. But wow how much power, control and authority that can be recovered. You will only find a part of this by using huge stranded conductors because of all the internal loss. Heavy single-core performs in another league.
Your view on tubeaps is based on calculations which cannot allways be trusted. My claim is built on real listening experiences by both the tubeaps owners and me. No calculators involved.
Want to try the optimal conductor? Try mimimum 7awg solid copper to the woofers, use bi/tri- wiring when possible, thinner wires like 9awg to mids, 12awg for tweeters (if they are) alone. Be aware that solid conductors needs a short high-power burn-in to open up.
No b4icu, I`m not selling anything, just guiding thos who wants. I know how to make the ultimate interconnect too, and powercables. And moore.
If you would be kind to read back a bit, you would find out two major things: 1. The calculation works, 2. If you connect a thicker cable than required by calc. it will not improve sound. For a tube amp. with so many floues, the cable is minor. I see you promote the solid cables agenda. It is BS. Go sale it elsewhere.
b4icuOP406 posts08-24-2020 10:14pm" Tube Amps have low DF so cables won't change the sound a bit. If the cables are meant to end up with a tube Amp. don't bother at all."
Wrong. Even my friends tiny 3.5W 2A3 SE-amp grew up when given 9awg solid copper. (no stranded distorted junk here please)
Instead of using 0awg stranded, 7awg solid will outperform it by a mile. Be aware though that the solid conductors will need up to one hour of heavy high-power massage to open up.
I discovered this back in the 90`s. This and a lot moore.
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